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Zhan Shi
As per The Fisty of Doom's request, this thread is a carry over from "Curse of the Catwoman". I'd like to continue to get people's thoughts on this. Post away!
Sammiel
I consider extreme sexual deviancy to be present in an extreme minority of shadowrun games, and as such, doesn't need to be discussed on a general forum for that game.

As I said, I have no problem with ex prostitutes/sex slaves turned PCs, but multibreasted hermaphrodite furries don't belong in Shadowrun.
WearzManySkins
Well the first thread was most informative in most if not all postings. biggrin.gif

As for where or not furries belong, like one has said the Comet changed things for SR.

I will be posting a backstory relating to that thread and that character.

Go for it Zhan, if there is something I feel I can contribute, I will, as will others. biggrin.gif

Just remember do not post any links that in any way can be seen as child porn or such things.

WMS
Buster
In other words, no Sailor Moon. Gotcha. biggrin.gif
Zhan Shi
As to Adam's comment about violence vs. sex being more accepted by Americans, I would say that's definitely true. In fairness, however, there has been an increasing outcry against gratuitous violence in cinema and tv. Part of it has to do with context. Think of the difference beween "Saving Private Ryan" and, say "Planet Terror" or "Fight Club". I would also add that the greatest outcry has been not against sex or violence alone, but against media which COMBINE the two in a, for lack of a better word, blasphemous whole. We yanks tend to prefer to keep our smut and our death/destruction separate.
Zhan Shi
For those who are new to the discussion, and who are bored enough to be interested, my thoughts on the subject are on the second page of "Curse of the Catwoman". Some of my best posts, if I do say so myself. biggrin.gif
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Buster)
In other words, no Sailor Moon. Gotcha. biggrin.gif

As discussed earlier, Sailor Senshi are just followers of a Possession tradition. So Sailor Moon is already in Shadowrun and has been since Awakenings. The SR4 tradition rules make her even easier. I made sure of that during the writing process.

-Frank
Wounded Ronin
This is being broken off from the "Curse of the Catwoman" thread.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...25&#entry592478

QUOTE

As interesting a discussion as moral relativity/ambiguety in SR is, it doesn't belong in this thread. This one was specifically for the discussion of the closure of the Catwoman thread. Please continue this line of thought in the SR forum. This forum is forum discussion of Dumpshock issues.


QUOTE

You could make the exact same argument about pederasty. Try telling the mods (or anyone else, for that matter) that kiddie porn is "not extreme, or even original". The point I was trying to make was not about originality, but about class. IMO, you have a rather extreme opinion on what is not extreme.


QUOTE

Well you know, women with killer vaginas has a pretty long mythological pedigree. I remember reading a few myths with a similar theme; the one I remember was vaginas like clamshells that would clamp down on a penis and not let go. I think that it comes from some archetypal subconscious fear men have of psychologically toxic women.

Demon and human intercourse is also pretty old hat. That was a big thing in medieval Europe when church authorities wanted to burn "witches". They'd make the women confess to demonic intercourse. So I don't see what's particularly new or shocking about that.

Snuff films have also been around the block in terms of urban legendery.

Shit-eating (coprophilia) happens enough anyway that there's a medical term for it. A couple months ago myself and the medical officer were laughing it up over coprophilia jokes.

Cannibalism is a rare but historically authentic cultural practice in some parts of the world.

See, none of that is actually very extreme or even original. In fact it's pretty much all old cliches.


QUOTE

I fail to see how pederasty, child pornography, or slavery are more "extreme" than murder. Yet there's no outcry against mentions of wetwork or elimination of witnesses (at least that I've seen).

Many people play games like Shadowrun as a chance to explore topics and themes that they only dare touch in a purely imaginary context. This includes a dark world full of greedy callous people doing awful, horrible things to one another.

Despite everything I just said above the plotline involving the children in Running Scared left me too disturbed to even think about sex for a good week. So I do understand where much of this feeling comes from, but I think that such disturbing topics do have their place in Shadowrun, and should be able to be discussed (in some form) on these boards as long as posters stay within the guidelines about posting adult content or links to adult content.


QUOTE

Precisely. But what's the point at which that line is crossed? Pictures as in your example? None were posted in this instance, it was a textual description of a character. Albeit one that used graphic language. Would a more moderate description be tolerable under the terms of use? It's a tricky area, as I'm sure the mods know, having to actually make the calls.


QUOTE

In general, american society, and the hobby gaming industry seems to think that violent fantasy is much more acceptable than sexual fantasy.


QUOTE

page 21, SR4: "Wetwork is assassination, pure and simple. Many runners refuse to take these jobs and view dirtying their hands for money in this way as vile."

page 258, SR4: "Gaining Notoriety"
"*Incredibly obnoxious or callous behavior. ("Forget returning that
orphanage's money. Let the brats starve.")
"*Killing an innocent person."


Hardly an outcry. I agree that any rpg will deal with dark side of human nature as a matter of course. But even (most) runners have a line beyond which they won't go, and the game does seem to reflect this. The game does make a distinction between "killing" and "murder", and between "killing Joe Average Wageslave" and "Killing the Mayan Cutter", and between "killing the Yak enforcer" and "selling technomancers to the corps for vivisection". The karma awards in all published SR adventures also support this view. Bottom line, I'm not trying to be a censor. If meat eating vaginas are your thing, then go with it; just leave the hardcore stuff to the imaginations of various players and GMs, rather than printing it in the sourcebooks. I'd hate to see SR fall into the same cesspool White Wolf did. I could give a far more graphic example, but won't do it without mod approval. It is quite disgusting and violent, but does not involve children or animals, and would be a synopsis of something actually published in a book for Vampire: The Masquerade.




DISCUSS! FOR YOUR COUNTRY, TODAY!!!
Mr. Croup
QUOTE (Sammiel)
I consider extreme sexual deviancy to be present in an extreme minority of shadowrun games, and as such, doesn't need to be discussed on a general forum for that game.

As I said, I have no problem with ex prostitutes/sex slaves turned PCs, but multibreasted hermaphrodite furries don't belong in Shadowrun.

On the contrary with the advent of the transhumanist movement, hermaphrodite mulitbreasted furries do belong in shadowrun, depending on how far the player of said character is willing to take it.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE

In general, american society, and the hobby gaming industry seems to think that violent fantasy is much more acceptable than sexual fantasy.


So, I'll kick this off in order to get the party started, especially since I've got a nice anecdote about this one.

There is an elderly man here in the Federated States of Micronesia who always brings up the issue of sex versus violence in movies, specifically the issue about how many people seem to see the violence as being okay to show kids but not sex. He always says, "Why do we want to show killing, but not show love?"

I have the same question about the table top RPG industry. Let's look at D&D. Even back in the 70s when D&D was simultaneously awesome AND being accused of being satanic, there was plenty of merciless butchery of orcs and so forth but I don't recall reading anything about sex. I remember reading about how a preliminary edition of "palace of the silver princess" had an illusory tied up woman who looked kind of distressed with monsters dancing around and some staff member flipped out and axed that encounter completely.

I mean, I've got a long memory of genocidal practices (killing all the orcs in a given dungeon in order to systematically glean all the gold from inside the dungeon) which would make Cortez proud being totally acceptable with no questions asked. But if the elf mage wants to lovingly fellate the half-elf Ranger with the stars shining brilliantly overhead and the calm silence of unjudging nature wrapping them like a gossamer sheet that's a total no-go.

Shadowrun, to its credit, does have bunraku parlors and pornographic sim, but I still sense a certain cultural resistance here where we can talk in great detail about decapitating the hapless night watchman with a Barret, or cutting him into quarters with a dikoted katana, or using our decker to make the sentry gun drill his kidneys, and then hack him to pieces and sell his meat to Tamanous, but generally speaking if somebody wanted to make elaborate plans to start a bunraku parlor I sense that there'd be some resistance here.

Like, I remember one time someone talked about how a character in Food Fight captured the ganger chick with the deadly high heels and kept her chained up in his apartment because the character wanted to start a harem. And then there was a great deal of flip-outage over this.

Basically, I think that there's an irrational contradiction here in terms of cultural values that doesn't make much sense logically.
Wounded Ronin
Finally, a little review of DSF history:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...9&st=0&hl=harem

OK, here's what I was talking about:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...&hl=harem&st=25

QUOTE

Zany (the ganger chick) is now currently sitting in the basement of the troll tank's apartment chained to the wall as part of a harem he's planning to build. MAN did we have a ball with that run. I may do it again later on just for the hell of it


QUOTE

Um...Dotdotdot, anyone?


QUOTE

That's just fucking sick. I can't believe you find that funny.


QUOTE

I concur with arethusa.


QUOTE

That's pretty twisted... but how is it inherently worse than killing her on the spot? The last time I ran food fight, the gangers pretty much all ended up dead.

I take it you're running an amoral campaign.


QUOTE

It's definitely something that could make for good material in Shadowrun. Dark, gritty, unheroic; of course, it's also necessary to avoid letting the excuses the characters make convince the players.


QUOTE

Yes. How, exactly, is that worse than shooting her in the head? They're both really, really bad and horribly repugnant, but why is it that the one draws a response that the other does not?

If you're pragmatic about it, the rape is a "lesser" transgression than the murder (presuming there is a moral heriarchy for these things). At least with the rape there is a chance of escape and possibly recover (all be it a hard road). When you're dead, you don't get better.

It's wrong, I agree, and if I had to deal with it as a GM, I'd probably find a way to get that character killed in short order. If the player made another character with the same bent... then it'd be time for a Talk™ and/or the Boot™. Depending on how insistant he was on it the first time around, it might be time for a Talk™ right then. If it's the character, that's fine... I can kill off characters I don't like. If it's the player who's an amoral SOB with some bizzare fantasy thing going on, I don't want to play with him.


This is my favorite post:

QUOTE

Because media desensitizes everyone here to the true horror of death and murder. People rarely see rape and humiliation on television, video games, comic books and movies so when they DO see it, the crime is more real to them. Since we see people get shot in the head all the time it's no big deal. We ignore the clear logic that indeed, some pain, degradation, and mental anguish is far preferable to never taking another breath, seeing another day, feeling anything ever again. Not even the coldness, the complete loneliness, or the slow decay and consumption of the empty carcass. Nothing. Ever.

We could also make a point that organized religion teaches the masses to be much more accepting of death, selling it as a 'release' from earthly pain to a paradise that may or may not really exist. But that would probably cause a flame war.


I think this pretty much hits the nail on the head in terms of exposing the irrationality of the relative political correctness of killing versus the political incorrectness of anything related to sexuality. For some reason it seems like the genitals are seen as the biggest threat to society still, and the most destructive implement ever created. Think that nuclear annhilation is okay to show on TV but bukkake is not. It really makes me think.
Wounded Ronin
Dammit Zhan Shi, you should have posted that you were making this thread. I read the Catwoman thread and went through lots of trouble to make a new thread with a nice reference to a similar discussion which arose on DSF several years ago:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=19205

Besides, isn't this issue broad enough that it should be general Shadowrun and not specific SR4?
Zhan Shi
This thread was here for almost three hours before you posted in SR. I was under the impression Fisty did'nt want any more clutter in the previous thread. I put it in SR4 because it's the most current SR version, and because this all started within the context of Augmentation. But I'm sorry if I put you through unnecessary work.
Wounded Ronin
Mods, admin, can we get a thread merge?
WearzManySkins
OK example from here in Dumpshock of moral ambiguity

In a game there.

OOC Plans are being talked about blowing up a school for a needed diversion, "We will make sure no kid gets hurt/killed."

But blowing up a Humanis Policlub is too risky due to Brackhaven interests in such.

WMS
Ancient History
Okay, question here: are we talking about the moral ambiguity of Dumpshock or of Shadowrun?

SR4 has gotten a bit darker lately. One notable example is in On the Run, where a BTL dealer keeps a gang of too-young-to-shave addicts around for security. How do y'all, as players and gamemasters feel about this?
AngelisStorm
"Multibreasted hermaphrodite furries don't belong in Shadowrun."

All I can go with is: Why? If penile replacements and breast augmentations that seep snake venom belong, why shouldn't the above? It's between the player group and the GM with regards to how they want to theme their campaign.

My main problem is that, in my experience, the players who want to play such a character are going to derail the game or be so obnoxious that the GM is going to quite or kill the character. Their likely to be completely self absorbed and have a one dimensional character who is best summed up as a "Multibreasted hermaphrodite furry."

(I do not doubt there are mature players out there who could play such a character and have such characteristics simply be an interesting part of the character's backstory, which in part led them to who they are today. I just don't know any of them. At least who would want to.)

It's similar to how, as a GM, I've never had a "demolitions expert" make it out of the bar they were introduced in. They always do something that causes a combination of npc's/pc's to kill them stone dead.

(Once again as above, know there are players who can handle such a role. In fact I have players who are experts in the field of explosives. I just seem to have bad experiences with players who say "I WANT TO PLAY A DEMOLITIONS EXPERT!")
wargear
The world of Shadowrun is a hard place to survive in. Exploration of the depths of savagry and depravity the human creature is able and willing to descent to in the name of survival, or in the absense of civilisation is part of what the game is about.

To earn nuyen for day to day survival, my friends and I have variously; been pimps, run extortion or protection rackets, cast healing and enhancement spells on prostitutes, sold bodies to tamanous, the list goes on.

It gets worse when an actual run becomes involved. The indiscriminate laying of explosives in populated (civilian) areas to serve as a distraction, murder of innocent witnesses, kidnapping, the usual...you've all done it...

As a player, I live a stressful frustrating life with a shitty job in a polluted world and for some reason our civilisation frowns upon me cleaving up my boss with a machete...so I game. (And if my character occasionally does unto a certain class of business owner with a machete...who's to know different?) It's a release, a chance for us to let our inner barbarian out to play a little.

I dunno, whatever...
WearzManySkins
QUOTE (AngelisStorm)
"It's similar to how, as a GM, I've never had a "demolitions expert" make it out of the bar they were introduced in. They always do something that causes a combination of npc's/pc's to kill them stone dead.

(Once again as above, know there are players who can handle such a role. In fact I have players who are experts in the field of explosives. I just seem to have bad experiences with players who say "I WANT TO PLAY A DEMOLITIONS EXPERT!")

rotfl.gif Well I have a demolitions expert playing in a game here in Dumpshock, and he as made it past the intro bar scene. smile.gif

WMS
AngelisStorm
See? smile.gif I said there had to be people out there who could do it.
Hartbaine
What is this thread actually about?

Sex and Violence in the SR universe or what? I'm a bit lost...
Mercer
QUOTE (Ancient History)
How do y'all, as players and gamemasters feel about this?

I'm of two minds about this. It's pretty much the same line I use with any other form of entertainment. If its crass, exploitive or tasteless, I don't particularly care for it. If its used to serve the needs of the story, then I can get behind it. Its the difference between the ear scene in Reservoir Dogs, and any of the torture porn movies that have come out recently (Saw, Saw II, Hostel, Hostel II, Saw III, and so on). Far be it from me to debase a series of movies without having watched them, so I'll just say that the Saw's are not my cup of tea and I take my movie watching money elsewhere, which is not to take away from anyone who enjoys them. Its a question of personal preference; there are a lot of people who'd find Reservoir Dogs tasteless and crass.

In the example of the underage bodyguards, in a game it could be handled as an interesting role-playing and tactical challenge, or it could be the GM sticking us with a lose/lose situation. Likewise, the GM could be presenting it as the former and the group could be ignoring the moral implications ("Let's see if we can't get a grenade next to the dealer, that way his child bodyguards contain the explosion rather than buffer against it.") which I think is just as bad.

Its all in the execution (so to speak).
Zhan Shi
Short answer: look at "Curse of the Catwoman". If you want to go a bit further, check out Augmentation Review, and if you want to go REALY far back, look at Augmentation: ask the developers.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
Mods, admin, can we get a thread merge?


As long as Zhan has no objections, I would bring the SR thread into this one. Bringing it into the SR4 forum would be simply because it will inevitably include some augmentations from the SR4 system.

I would ask that it stays out of the realm for moral depravity for the purposes of shock value only. I meant what I said, that the discussions are fine as long as it sticks to the purposes of actually developing the character in a constructive sense. Which is not the same as constructing the character simply to shock with it's deviancy. Also understand that my opinion of what is and isn't too far may differ form others, and I understand that. So any reviews of objectional materials is handled by all the mods as a consensus. That will be the same for any subjects of violence. Posts about detailed torture will end up the same way the post that closed the original thread will end the same way.

Lastly, reincarnating a thread that was closed becuase of mod action is very much frowned on. We're letting this one go because there may be some useful content from the original intention. I suggested a thread discussing the morals inolved, not the same subject again.
Kerris
I think it's about extreme sexual deviance in SR, stemming from the creation of a "furry" sex toy character.

As to the question of whether such deviance exists in SR, I have one word: Powerline (Runner Havens, p. 112). It explicitly states that the downstairs of this Belleview bar consists of several BDSM dungeons, a bar, and a dance floor (the latter two being irrelevant). The description also states that the AR overlays are customizable. I would not be surprised if there is a furry scene in this area as well as BDSM. (Extrapolation is cool).

That said, I hope it doesn't come up in my game. (And to my player(s) that lurk(s): This won't come up in my game. Your character will die.)
Zhan Shi
Merge away, it's fine by me.
fistandantilus4.0
Merged at both original poster's requests.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
Merged at both original poster's requests.

I think there might be a technical problem. When I click on the old thread in the SR forum I get an error message about an out of date link. Meanwhile, the posts from that thread aren't here.
fistandantilus4.0
Looks like they're there. They merge by time stamp. It doesn't just pop it in at the end. Your post with all the quotes is the thrid or fourth one in.
Wounded Ronin
It looks okay now. Before it was strange but it works now. Thanks for your patience and help.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Mercer)
I'm of two minds about this. It's pretty much the same line I use with any other form of entertainment. If its crass, exploitive or tasteless, I don't particularly care for it. If its used to serve the needs of the story, then I can get behind it. Its the difference between the ear scene in Reservoir Dogs, and any of the torture porn movies that have come out recently (Saw, Saw II, Hostel, Hostel II, Saw III, and so on).

So, just out of curiosity, what do you think of these stories I've written? There's torture in them, which was actually kicked off by a post someone made here on DSF being sarcastic about a periodical called "Torturer's Quarterly". Do you feel it's gratuitious, or okay?

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...3334&hl=harvard

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...3335&hl=harvard
WhiskeyMac
I feel that the intent of the character was good: a sexual fantasy that many share who is a former worker in a bunraku parlor. This fantasy is shared in much of Japan and bunraku parlors are run by the Yakuza, traditionally. Therefore, it makes sense that a PC who worked at that parlor would look like that sexual fantasy. What I didn't like about the character was the degree that it went to represent said fantasy. A hot Asian female (or even transgender male, or any other race) who has a bio cat's tail, ears and claws would get a lot more money at the parlor and would even get some respect in the shadows based off their abilities. However, a completely furred female (or transgender male) with 4 breasts and various other strange bio-mods would probably not receive such a nice reception at either local.

That's my .02 nuyen.gif , anyway. I might just work out a character sheet for the character, with my spin on it.
Redjack
QUOTE (WearzManySkins)
OK example from here in Dumpshock of moral ambiguity

In a game there.

OOC Plans are being talked about blowing up a school for a needed diversion, "We will make sure no kid gets hurt/killed."

But blowing up a Humanis Policlub is too risky due to Brackhaven interests in such.

Just to post a correction to this misrepresentation of the conversation:
One of the other players referenced Brackhaven as a supporter of Humanis who would take interest in locating someone who blew up a Humanis site after you said "Why not blow up something that keeps everyone happy like a Alamo2000 chapter house or Humanis Policlub Seattle Headquarters?"

So isn't the real question of moral ambiguity here which is worse: A small bomb in a school timed so that no one gets hurt or blowing up people who are deemed undesirable?
hyzmarca
QUOTE (WhiskeyMac)
I feel that the intent of the character was good: a sexual fantasy that many share who is a former worker in a bunraku parlor. This fantasy is shared in much of Japan and bunraku parlors are run by the Yakuza, traditionally. Therefore, it makes sense that a PC who worked at that parlor would look like that sexual fantasy. What I didn't like about the character was the degree that it went to represent said fantasy. A hot Asian female (or even transgender male, or any other race) who has a bio cat's tail, ears and claws would get a lot more money at the parlor and would even get some respect in the shadows based off their abilities. However, a completely furred female (or transgender male) with 4 breasts and various other strange bio-mods would probably not receive such a nice reception at either local.

That's my .02 nuyen.gif , anyway. I might just work out a character sheet for the character, with my spin on it.

I think the acceptance of off-the-wall transhumanist characters depends greatly on the level of conservativeness in a particular culture. In a highly conservative culture that clings to traditional roles and values, an obviously biomodified character may as well be a joke with no hope of socioeconomic advancement. However, those megacorps that are highly invested in transhumanism, those that pioneered the techniques and hold their patents, will encourage the most extreme of body modifications in both their employees and their customers. Even in openly transhumanist cultures, heavily biomodified characters will have some difficulty rising to the very top due to the need to politic with the more conservative corporations and nations. But, below those extremely powerful positions the workforce of transhumanist businesses will be filled with all sorts of creatures which may or may not appear remotely human at first glance, for no other reason than that the corp pushes the technology on them, turning them into walking advertisements for biomodification.

The shadowrunning community, if such a thing exists, is primarily based around the concepts of extreme anarcho-capitalism and human individuality. As such, freakishness is only a a liability to the neo-anarchist if that freakness makes it more difficult to complete a job, and there are plenty of jobs freakishness is an asset Just ask my Body 30 Possessed Toll as he soaks an assault cannon round down to nothing.

Certainly, the Catgirl's freakishness is less useful in combat (though a prehensile tail can be quite wonderful). But, in infiltrating a bunraku parlor or a transhumanist enclave, she's perfect.


QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
I mean, I've got a long memory of genocidal practices (killing all the orcs in a given dungeon in order to systematically glean all the gold from inside the dungeon) which would make Cortez proud being totally acceptable with no questions asked. But if the elf mage wants to lovingly fellate the half-elf Ranger with the stars shining brilliantly overhead and the calm silence of unjudging nature wrapping them like a gossamer sheet that's a total no-go.


You see, I don't think this is so much cultural squeemishness (certainly, there are plenty of hypersexual movies out there) as it is a matter of inter-player comfort zones. There is a giant bright safety-orange area between the elf mage fellating the half-elf ranger and the elf mage's player fellating the half-elf ranger's player. That area is called Dude, They're Having Phone Sex Without a Phone and it's painted safety orange for a reason. It is, in most groups, a giant don't go there. The problem being, once you start it is extremely easy to go there by accident.
And it isn't even just that area. There is all kinds of confusing stuff in that sort of undertaking. It is extremely difficult to tell the difference between "my character wants to give you a blowjob" and "I want to give you a blowjob". And there is all kinds of weirdness that comes about when those two phrases might have the same meaning.
So, most people stay well away from that area simply by not having any in-character sex. People who do have in character sex tend to be either extremely mature, communicating over the internet, or swingers.

America today has a higher tolerance for displays of sexuality and sexual violence than in the past. The Federal regulation of the airwaves allows for extreme kneejerk reactions by the "moral majority" (really the moral minority) to appear to have some influence on television. But, Janet Jackson's nipple pastie was only fined because of the the size of the event and Conservative control of the FCC. In other venues, nipple pasties are perfectly fine attire (in fact, one syndicated talk show had a guest who wore nipple patsies in lieu of shirts on a fashion makeover episode). An episode of Rescue Me (a television series on the basic cable channel FX) last year had an episode in which the protagonist, the hero of the story, the guy that the views are supposed to root for and identify with, raped is ex-wife. Not a coy seduction with playful resisting, a complete obvious that-no-really-does-mean-no rape. And there was mild controversy. Later, she got back at him by raping him back, making them even in some sick and twisted way. Still, the controversy over these scenes was mild.

So, we've got a series in which the hero of the story rapes his ex-wife and isn't even the slightest bit sorry for it. And she rapes him back for revenge.On basic cable.

On HBO this year is a series called Tell Me You Love Me, about the relationships of several married couples, one of which is trying desperately to have a child. And there's sex. A lot of sex. Five or six sex acts in a 60-minute episode, in fact. And it isn't just your average TV sex. It is the most realistic simulated sex in the history of recorded simulated sex. Actual softcore porn has nothing on this series. Its actual buck-naked close-up no-edits for all appearances actual sex. Supposedly, they use extremely realistic, extremely expensive prosthetics because the Screen Actors' Guild won't let them do non-simulated sex.
But it is realistic to the point that it might as well not be simulated.
And it is good. The acting is great. The dialog is great. The plot is great. The characters are great. Everything is great. It just happens to contain such an absurd amount of sex that if not for the high quality of the show you'd think you were watching Cinemax late at night.

Sex, while taboo in broadcast and "family" programing is out there. And it is becoming less taboo in family programing. For example, the series Kyle XY (a great hybrid genre series about a navel-less vat-grown super-clone attempting to adjust to live outside of his corporate-owned tank while attempting to connect with his adopted family and protect them from the corporation that wants to kill him to protect their secrets), shown on the ABC Family basic cable network (owned by Disney) has a couple of important subplots revolving around it's teenage characters' sex lives.


Then there is Weeds, which includes frank depictions of and discussions of sex, including Uncle Andy giving 11-year-old Shane tips on masturbation (in a completely non-creepy way) in response to the toilet being clogged with used socks and eventually taking him to see a prostitute. But it is on SHOtime.

Boston Legal, broadcast on ABC after 10PM, contains an absurd amount of sex and even more sexual innuendo, double entendres, single entendres, and sexual harassment, usually perpetrated by the characters of Alan Shore (Spader) and Denny Crane (Shatner). Both do their fair share of Kirking. Alan actually does more kirking than Denny does which is ironic, considering.

Dr. House on Fox's House sexually harasses every woman whom he meets, without exception, not because he is a misogynist, but because he is a misanthrope. There is lots of talk about breasts and intercourse.
"Your eyes are lopsided, and by eyes I mean breasts."

So, yes, there is a great deal of sex on television. This doesn't even scratch the surface of it.


Sex belongs in Shadowrun. It even belongs in SR games, if for no other reason than the cliché 80s/early 90s low-budget action movie sex scene where everything is dark and teh female lead's body double's bare breasts can be seen.
But, if it goes beyond that, it can get weird and uncomfortable if the whole group isn't on the same page.
Riley37
I am a newcomer and would find it helpful if the topic posed a question, or an invitation for comments on something. I gather from context that there's a general question about story elements involving sex, violence, and sex and violence that are more or less ethical; a question about how those are different in SR4 compared to other publications; and a question about the specific example of a character with a catwoman extreme "furry" body modification.

Sure, the Augmentation book had some specific listings for sexual mods that some thought appropriate and others thought in appropriate, and some broadly-adaptable mods that could, with creativity (or not much creativity) make a character desirable depending on one's preferences, including the not-shared-by-all-of us preference for cat features. I'm guessing that people who want to run those stories are generally capable of making house rules, with or without explicit support in Augmentation... and that there's not much anyone else can do to stop them.

As a parallel, Augmentation has several pages on cyberzombies, and the tone generally establishes that making cyberzombies is unethical. One could choose to play a cyberzombie, and struggle every day with the truth that you really ought to be dead, but more likely, if you run into cyberzombie guards, then you can safely conclude that you are dealing with unethical people, and thus you might be more justified in using maximum force, dirty tricks, and causing collateral damage. By my personal ethics, making a cyberzombie is generally more unethical than creating a catwoman. I do not object to WizKids writing several pages of rules and fluff about CZs.

On another hand, a recent NPC in my group's campaign is a street doc; she paid cash for bodies with removable and re-usable augmentation ware; she wants the PCs to shut down the business of a rival street doc who modded some minors to suit some unusual sexual interests; and I'm gonna enjoy playing a character who uses (illegal) force to shut down that rival street doc. I think the campaign is all the more interesting for including a real jerk as a foe, and a ally who verges on organlegging... there's evil, there's shades of gray, pure good is darn rare, but given the choice of questionable vs. pure evil, choose questionable. We didn't need any rules covering the specifics of the unethical modifications done on minors; the doc does them, he has his prices, the GM can write the fluff and we REALLY don't need the crunch.
CyberKender
As I recall, furries aren't new in Shadowrun. Some supplement, (and it certainly could have been a non-FASA one), set up a trend for cosmetic body modification in the late 2nd Ed. era. Animalistic features were fashionable for awhile. Ok, this isn't the same as a sextuple-breasted, anthropomorphic joygirl, but at the same time, how does looking like a cat make it any different than a normal metahuman in the same 'profession'? Is it really about the furries. or is it, as the majority of the recent comments go towards, the sex? I'm inclined to say both, but as separate issues.

Don't think furries belong in Shadowrun? No problem. Set them up with issues, if any player goes that route. It's one hell of a "Distinctive Style" disadvantage, if nothing else.

Squeamish about sex in role-playing? Don't do it. Just pull the "the characters go into a room and close the door behind them. Hours later, the door opens, and they leave" routine. State it up front with the players. Personally, it's part of the character's lives, and therefore a potentially important role-playing moment. No, not the actual act, but all of the 'uncertain negotiations' that lead up to the act. It probably doesn't have a lot to do with the game, but it has a lot to do with the completeness of the character's personality. The trick, really, is being adult about it. If you're going to snicker and feel like it's an illicit act, then it is, really. If you're uncomfortable about it, then you probably shouldn't do it. If any of your partners (i.e. players) are uncomfortable about it, then you shouldn't do it.

I am totally with Wounded Ronin on the hypocrisy of how Americans accept violence but are 19th century Victorians about sex. Even arch-conservative Moral Majority members would have to agree that the Ten Commandments say Thou Shalt Not Kill, but don't say "Thou Shalt Not Have Sex Where Anyone Else Can Find Out." Murder's the bigger sin, but it's ok to show real dead bodies on the evening news, and real blood running down the faces of pro westlers, but show one bare breast? Grab the pitch forks and the torches! It's time for a lynchin'! Pfaugh!

Conversely, tho, I would say that the character who forcibly keeps a sex slave is not the same as a murder. The victim of a murder's torture only lasts until they die. Usually seconds. The victim of rape's torture lasts as long as the victim remembers the event. It will seriously affect them for their entire lives. Both are very wrong things, but I would not rank the two as the same.
Glyph
Personally, I don't think the sex vs. violence debate in RPGs has much to do with comparative morality, but with comfort zones. And I think the sourcebooks have done a great job at presenting both aspects of the game - in neither case do they go into disturbing detail, instead leaving it up to individual groups and their comfort level.

As for the troll's actions, they don't really compare to simple killing, morality-wise, but are more comparable to torture (for kicks) or thrill-killing - it's not part of a job; or self defense, or even greed, but simply gratuitous cruelty. It's not the only example of that that I've read in various threads here, though. Personally, I prefer games where the PCs are nominal protagonists, or at least wrestle with their consciences occasionally.

The catgirl, as extreme as she is, fits the role of a modified bunraku puppet, and there are probably even more extremely modified types catering to the "special" tastes. I question how effective she would be at being a runner, though. Unless you're doing a run on 4chan.
hyzmarca
You see, I disagree with the Troll's actions being tantamount to torture. Rape is torture, but keeping a sex-slave does not necessarily require rape. It can also involve the use of capture-bonding, a very real phenomenon in which a captive grows to love a captor.
It can, for that matter, involve psychotropic brainwashing which, while unethical, can create both real consent and real happiness.
Kerris
I wouldn't consider consent that is the result of brainwashing to be "real". There was some effort expended in forcing the change, which infers that the change was unwanted. Preventing personal freedom is a Bad Thing. If the person wants to be captured and tied up, that's one thing (consentual bondage is completely acceptable), but if it's non-consentual, that's completely another.
Moon-Hawk
Regarding 4-breasted hermaphroditic whatever: If someone actually wanted to play something like that, we would need to have a long talk about their expectations for the character and the campaign, because I have some serious doubts that it would be compatible with the game I'm trying to run, but it might be.
Including it in the game world, however, is a completely different matter. I say heck yeah. With all the crazy biomods in SR I feel like Rule 34 has jumped off the internet and has landed squarely in the bad parts of town. Mentioning some sort of bizarre combination of traits such as the above, with everyone at the table just knowing that somebody is going to do something extremely deviant with it can add great atmosphere, but like I said I would be skeptical of the motivations of anyone who actually wanted to play it.

But then again, my group's "demolition expert" is a great player and hasn't ruined a plan yet, so stranger things have happened. wink.gif
Penta
From another thread:

QUOTE (Penta @ Sep 26 2007, 11:32 AM)
QUOTE (wargear @ Sep 25 2007, 07:03 PM)
So, how different is this troll from say, the local yak boss who runs a bunraku parlour staffed by girls yanked off the streets and forcibly implanted with the chipjacks and personality chips?

I have a reason why:

The Yak boss gets no thrill out of the actual bunraku bit, it can be argued. For him, it's business, the same as selling BTLs or car parts or whatever.

The troll ganger is doing it for the (presumably sexual) thrill, or otherwise does it because he likes it.


One is a cold, calculating SOB. We may not like it, but we can get it. It's emotionally more distant.

The other...Well. There are a variety of ways to describe that troll.
Jeremiah Legacy
QUOTE
I am totally with Wounded Ronin on the hypocrisy of how Americans accept violence but are 19th century Victorians about sex. Even arch-conservative Moral Majority members would have to agree that the Ten Commandments say Thou Shalt Not Kill, but don't say "Thou Shalt Not Have Sex Where Anyone Else Can Find Out." Murder's the bigger sin, but it's ok to show real dead bodies on the evening news, and real blood running down the faces of pro westlers, but show one bare breast? Grab the pitch forks and the torches! It's time for a lynchin'


Since it came up, I will comment. There actually is a reason why Christians tend to be more puritanical about sex than violence. The Bible, where the 10 Commandments came from, says that sexual sins being worse than other sins because, in addition to sinning against others and God, you are sinning against your own body, which for us Christians, is referred to as the temple of the Holy Spirit.

So, for us fundamentalist Christians, sexual sin would be the equivelant of someone going to all the Shadowrun books and urinating the phrase "DUNGEONZ N DRAGONZ 4 EVER!" And most people in the US consider themselves Christian. Of course, most people in the US also consider themselves better than average drivers, so make of it as you will.

Edited to clean up a typo
Mercer
A friend of mine one time was going to run a game set in Roman Britain, with most of the party playing Celts. Another friend of mine had this really interesting character concept. He wanted to play a Roman spy who was a hermaphrodite who would dress as either a man or a woman depending on who needed to be seduced. It was a serious character, not a gimmick or something to be played for laughs. But it made the GM so uncomfortable that he stopped talking about running that game. That was a line that just freaked him out. Which is kind of a shame, because I think that would have been a memorable game.
______________________________________

@hyz: I have to vote against capture-bonding leading to "real" happiness too. Not that people who are deluded into being happy are any less happy, its just when you take away someone's free will you kind of have to put as asterisk by the relationship. (Although, the Stockholm Sydrome is as good an explanation as any as to why my family still gets together on the holidays.)

----------------------------------------------------

@Cyberkender: There was a supplement for Cyberpunk (or GURPS Cyberpunk) that covered this sort of thing-- as well as ork and elf mods-- but I don't remember one for SR. As to why someone in CP would want to look like an ork, well, that never made much sense to me one way or the other.

----------------------------------------------------

@Wounded Ronin: I'll have to read over those selections when I have more time. (Responding todays is actually making me late for work-- or as late as you can be when you can go in pretty much whenever you want-- but I see it as a question or priorities.) But ultimately, the line between exploitive and artistic is one of personal preference. I think for me, the difference is that pornography (even torture porn) is desgined to provoke a physical response, where art (for lack of a better term) is meant to invoke an emotional one.

---------------------------------------------------

The troll's actions might be a crass and exploitive act, or it could be a sensitive portrayal of obsession and need, or it could be a joke tossed out at the end of a session. Hard to judge that without being at the table (although my money would either be on #1 or #3, if we were betting). I'm in no particular rush to condemn it, since I've said some pretty horrible things that people have found funny. Sometimes you just go for the gross-out.
CyberKender
Jeremiah: Yes, I am aware that the bible has a number of things to say about sex. I was using the (specifically) arch-conservative as an example of an extreme viewpoint, not so much as to make a comment about Christian values.

Mercer: Same reason as they'd want to have any body-mod that doesn't make them 'Madison Ave. beautiful.' Some people just want to look different than they do. Imagine what Lizard Man, Katzen, or Stalking Cat would do if Shadowrun technology were available to them.
mfb
QUOTE (Penta)
From another thread:

QUOTE (Penta @ Sep 26 2007, 11:32 AM)
QUOTE (wargear @ Sep 25 2007, 07:03 PM)
So, how different is this troll from say, the local yak boss who runs a bunraku parlour staffed by girls yanked off the streets and forcibly implanted with the chipjacks and personality chips?

I have a reason why:

The Yak boss gets no thrill out of the actual bunraku bit, it can be argued. For him, it's business, the same as selling BTLs or car parts or whatever.

The troll ganger is doing it for the (presumably sexual) thrill, or otherwise does it because he likes it.


One is a cold, calculating SOB. We may not like it, but we can get it. It's emotionally more distant.

The other...Well. There are a variety of ways to describe that troll.

i don't see any solid reason why one of those is worse than the other. it could just as easily be argued that the troll isn't as bad, because at least he recognizes on some level that the ganger chick is human. he doesn't just treat her as currency on the hoof, the way the Yak does.
Mercer
QUOTE (CyberKender)
Imagine what Lizard Man, Katzen, or Stalking Cat would do if Shadowrun technology were available to them.

Yeah, but those people are freaks. (Kidding! Mostly.) My point is just that in SR, an ork is an ork (of course, of course). In CP, the guy that purposefully makes himself an ork is probably some Tolkien-obsessed freak. I play a lot of orks in SR (and a lot of orcs in TGTSNBN), but playing an ork body mod in CP holds no interest for me.

But mainly I was just mentioning that the closest thing to the supplement you described I ever saw was CP and not SR. (Which is cool. I picked up a lot of CP supplements to convert to SR. The Chromebooks in particular were a great series. I always liked how CP incorporated style into the gear.)

---------------------------------------------------

Back to the troll: Seriously, people. Black Snake Moan.

I don't see why someone who exploits people as commodities is any less reprehensible than someone who does it for kicks. The damage is pretty much the same to the victim.
Zhan Shi
This brings us to what seems to be the only real "sin" in the Shadowrun mythos: racism. Would any here play, or allow someone else in the group to play, a Humanis supporter/runner? Not neccessarily a member of a group like Alamos 20K, or National Aktion, but a runner who bought into the whole "Arise, Humanity!" thing? Or maybe a troll runner who belonged to the Sons of Sauron?
Fortune
Sure. In my case though, if I were to play a militant racist, the character would more-than-likely be elven, as they have been in the past.
Zhan Shi
Well, you are an Immoral Elf. biggrin.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (Zhan Shi)
Well, you are an Immoral Elf.

And don't you forget it! Right Fisty? biggrin.gif
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