Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Technomancer questions
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
Arashi
<<why do technomancers not need ECCM? Are they not susceptible to jamming?
>>

They are susceptible, and they do need it.

ECCM is a hacking program (available as a Technomancer Complex Form, per mainbook page 233, 3rd paragraph), one that I think no self-respecting TM would be without.

A Technomancer's Signal is Resonance / 2 (rounded up), giving a starting TM a range of 1-3... VERY easily jammed. However, give a starting TM a Resonance of 6 and an ECCM of 6, and now we are talking a combined signal to resist Jamming of 9 - which means that only a rating 10 Jammer will be able to block out that Technomancer. So from game start you are able to be almost as good as a top-line commlink and ECCM program combined, all that with not being subject to search and discovery while walking into the MCT black tower Zero-Zone smile.gif
Tarantula
Arashi, if you use your newly compiled machine sprite to diagnose that medkit, you get an extra 5 dice, for about 2 more successes. Leaving you with 4 boxes healed. 1-2 boxes down isn't bad, and you'll probably heal it off before the next day anyway.
Gargs454
First off, thanks a bunch for all the responses in such a rapid fashion. I certainly have a lot of things to consider now.

Second, after playing around with a build, I really see what everyone means when they talk about TM's being BP and Karma hogs. So, just a few more questions for now and then I'll try to work on a build to post for you guys.

1. I see that most people are ignoring Decompiling. Is that pretty standard? If so, that certainly gives me some more BP's as I don't need to go with the Tasking Group. Obviously, how often it will come into play is dependent upon the GM, so I suppose each player's game may differ.

2. Is it best to just take the entire Hacking group, or are there enough subcategories that are "dumpable"? My TM will be the only Hacker type so I want to make sure I have my bases covered.

3. I probably just missed it in the book, but I'm assuming that a Compiled Sprite uses CF's = to its rating, if that's not the case, then what is the rating on their CF's?

4. In searching through the book (admittedly quickly) it seemed as though the Computer skill was only used for one CF and otherwise did not seem to offer much benefit to the TM. Am I reading this correctly? If so, that would also free up some BP as I could just concentrate on Software and Data Search.

5. I assume that each Threaded CF I have a sprite maintain counts as a separate task.

6. It seems as though I should usually try to start off the run (perhaps even talking the GM before the session) compiling and registering sprites so that they are ready to go ahead of time, or am I missing something here?
Tarantula
3. Yes, sprites CF = Rating. Note: Certain sprites only have certain CFs. Check the sprite page for which get what.

4. Computer skill is for common use programs/cfs, as well as when validly logged in. Hacking skill is for hacking programs, or when hacked in.

5. Yes.

6. Generally, unless you plan to have some good damage mitigation (good doctor) around to help out with sprites on the fly.
Raij
QUOTE
They are susceptible, and they do need it.

ECCM is a hacking program (available as a Technomancer Complex Form, per mainbook page 233, 3rd paragraph), one that I think no self-respecting TM would be without.


That is the way I thought it should work, but I see no technomancers suggesting getting ECCM as a complex form. According to the suggestion on the first page of this thread about picking programs for CFs that you need to do while doing other things, it would be a good idea considering you would need to use it specifically when you doing something else I imagine (you're overcoming ECM to do what?)

Would it not be a good idea to get ECCM as a complex form?
Gargs454
QUOTE (Raij @ Oct 9 2007, 12:11 PM)
QUOTE
They are susceptible, and they do need it.

ECCM is a hacking program (available as a Technomancer Complex Form, per mainbook page 233, 3rd paragraph), one that I think no self-respecting TM would be without.


That is the way I thought it should work, but I see no technomancers suggesting getting ECCM as a complex form. According to the suggestion on the first page of this thread about picking programs for CFs that you need to do while doing other things, it would be a good idea considering you would need to use it specifically when you doing something else I imagine (you're overcoming ECM to do what?)

Would it not be a good idea to get ECCM as a complex form?

I guess it depends on a) where you put it on the priority list and b) how many BPs you have left for CF's. I suppose the thought is that if you run into a jammer, you could always thread the ECCM CF on the fly.

Finally, one last question (for now anyway) nyahnyah.gif

I see people mentioning using drones. I take it that the easiest (or at least most versatile) way to do this is to simply Compile a Machine Sprite and have the sprite run the drone so that the TM doesn't need to invest in all the assorted Rigger-related skills as well? Obviously if you plan on using a decent number of drones you probably want a certain amount of skill in mechanics, but other than that I take it the sprite does most of the heavy lifting?

And thanks again for all the help, I certainly have a much better understanding of TM's now.
Magus
Hey Gargs try making your TM an orc. that way all your physical stats are fine as defaults and you can pump up your mental stats to average. Spend the rest on resources skills and CFs.
Jaid
why not to bother with ECCM CF imo:

TM obtains a trode net and a powerful signal source. connects the two (either with a wire, or with a skinlink). installs an ECCM program on the powerful signal source. can now completely ignore far more jamming then they could by using their own CFs for it.

as far as vehicle skills for a TM, imo the TM should be picking up driving skills before repairing skills. this is because of the ridiculous way that the command CF rating works =P

in any case, i'd rather spend 5 BP on a good mechanic contact as a TM... those BPs are precious!
Gargs454
QUOTE (Jaid)
why not to bother with ECCM CF imo:

TM obtains a trode net and a powerful signal source. connects the two (either with a wire, or with a skinlink). installs an ECCM program on the powerful signal source. can now completely ignore far more jamming then they could by using their own CFs for it.

as far as vehicle skills for a TM, imo the TM should be picking up driving skills before repairing skills. this is because of the ridiculous way that the command CF rating works =P

in any case, i'd rather spend 5 BP on a good mechanic contact as a TM... those BPs are precious!

Hmmm, you kinda lost me on the ECCM bit, but I still need to reread the Matrix section yet again.

As for the BP's I hear ya there. I'm considering the idea of the orc or perhaps dwarf, but I still run into a bit of a BP problem and it doesn't help with the orc that I lose a point of Logic which is fairly important to TM's. Dwarf is a little better, but still costs some precious BP's. I'll post a starting build either late tonight or tomorrow, then y'all can rip it to shreds. smile.gif

Wasabi
QUOTE (Raij)
Would it not be a good idea to get ECCM as a complex form?

IMO yes, a good idea. With threading and assisting from sprites they have the potential to completely negate jamming. Defensively this means only antiwireless paint or an enemy TM can stop them online. Offensively it means you can blanket with ECM and smoke all the other non-TM's to an offline status if they are depending on wireless.
Gargs454
Alright, here's my first shot at a build. Please critique and let me know where I can do better since as stated earlier I'm a big time neophyte with the Hacker/TM stuff.

Thanks in advance:

Meta: Human

Attributes: Body 2, Agi 1, Reac 2, Str 1, Cha 4, Int 5, Log 5, Wil 5, Edge 4, Res 6

Skills: Software (Threading) 6(cool.gif
Compiling 4
Dodge (ranged) 2(4)
Perception 2
Cracking 4
First Aid 2
Data Search 4
Registering (spec) 4 (6)

CF's: Armor 5, Blackhammer 5, Exploit 5, Attack 5, ECCM 5

Gear: 3 BP

Contacts: 6 BP

Qualities: Technomancer, Combat Paralysis, Criminal SIN, Weak Immune System

My thought was to register low level sprites so that they can sustain my Threaded CF's and I can avoid taking stun damage from the sprites while still maintaining my CF's without taking any penalties. Of course I can only have 4 sprites at a time, but with low level sprites I should get lots of tasks out of them. Then I can go for bigger sprites when I need something not covered by my CF's.

Now please, tear it apart and show me how I can do better while still maintaining the main hacker role without running the risk of constantly killing myself. cool.gif

Thanks again.
Wasabi
The fading on Threading is enormous. Having a registered sprite add you his rating on top of your CF is much better.

Electronics group at 4 gives you more utility and free's up build for Edge or CF's. Add specializations with your karma from your first run.

CF's should be your bread and butter. I suggest every TM get Stealth and Analyze at a minimum. Spoof is also good since you'll never want to be traced. ECM shuts you down so I'd get ECCM too. Salt and Pepper to taste with other CF's.

You really wont be threatened as a TM by agents and sprites. You'll have 16-18 dice and they'll have 12. I'd suggest dropping Attack as a CF. Against an enemy TM you'll want the super uber Blackhammer with a bajillion dice. Sure Attack+Blackhammer will make you a matrix-y soldier type but the points are better used to afford Codeslinger, spike Edge, or diversify CF's.

Home Ground is handy for reducing fading from registering sprites in your home node. It also aids Registering and Compiling and, thanks to the matrix, its available online from anywhere you can smuggle a Satellite Uplink or find a Starbucks. smile.gif

Codeslinger in Matrix Perception can be handy. Its also good for exploiting in the fast way. You'll have to decide if you are defensive (spy like) or offensive in nature. (B&E via Exploit or Cybercombat).

Lastly, your Living Persona per the FAQ does NOT limit your CF's. This means Logic and Intuition could in theory be 3's with a spiked Charisma so you can get tons of Sprites and/or a spiked Willpower for Fading tests. For every SIX fading test dice you have you can (on average) use 1 point of Threading without suffering stun. Getting hits on threading is easy. Resisting the Fading isnt. Use it to add a couple more dice after using a registered sprite to add his rating to the CF.
Arashi
Wasabi says <<The fading on Threading is enormous. Having a registered sprite add you his rating on top of your CF is much better>>

No offense, but someone must have done some editing of your mainbook... I use threading just about every game session (like mages throw Stunbolt) and I have yet to take a single box of Fading from it, well maybe this is because here is how I use it more conservatively:

Per SR4 mainbook p234: "The technomancer can choose not to use all of the hits he scores" (emphasis mine)

Per SR4 mainbook p237: "For threading, the Fading DV equals the hits used for rating points." (emphasis mine)

Thus, you go to fast-hack a node, threading your stealth up and choose to take only 2 successes to jump it from 6 to 8. Or you want to make sure your Attack will really take out the IC now, thread it up from 6 to 8... Nothing like an attack program that does 2 more base damage just for starters. Then resist the 2 boxes of Fading easily with 6 Resonance + 5 Willpower. I personally have tempted fate a couple times and taken 3 or 4 successes to thread up, and only 1 time had to spend an Edge to reroll and suffer no fading.

Even though I agree that Sprites are wonderful, powerful and useful - Some do *not* have stealth (notably machine sprites which are very useful), and therefore are very easily detected hanging out with you by active security - sometimes it's best to just be modest and slink in on your own invisible self instead of having a cloud of them aiding all your actions in main nodes.
The Jopp
A few questions arised as I shuffled through the technomancer rules, especially threading and having sprites add their rating in dicepool to a complex form.

1. A sprite can add its rating in dice (not increasing rating, merely dicepool) to a complex form as a task (assist operation) – but there is no mentioning that they cannot use several tasks at once on the same complex forms. 3 tasks to boost Exploit for example from 3 dice to 12 with a rating 3 sprite (sure, only for 3 seconds but hacking on the fly suddenly got LOTS simpler.)

2. Threading can increase the rating of a complex form – but can you thread a complex form twice? Sure, you get an additional -2 but with a sprite handy it can sustain it for a limited time – and threading something from 3 to 6 and then to 9 can damn handy (and scary…)
The Jopp
Is there anything stopping a TM from running his complex forms on a commlink?

Since these are in effect programs that are compatible with regular commlink system they can be copied and used by TM’s and regular people as long as they use them as normal programs on a commlink.

On the other hand they cannot be copied and its core programming would be gibberish to others than technomancers.
Wasabi
QUOTE (Arashi)
Thus, you go to fast-hack a node, threading your stealth up and choose to take only 2 successes to jump it from 6 to 8.

I do the EXACT same thing. We're in complete agreement. My response was because the build posted had specialized in threading and more than two hits is wasted IMO due to Fading effects.

What I should have said is that your dice pool for threading ideally should give you three hits then take two. [three so you have some margin for error if you roll low.]
Gargs454
Doh! Evidently I need to increase my own personal perception skill. I managed to completely miss the Assist Operation task in the Technomancer section. So basically, it sounds as though what I want to do is a) Compile and Register a sprite for the CF that I think I may need (or a few CF's for same sprite ideally), then b) Thread my own CF by 2 (maybe 3), then have the Sprite Assist in the CF for up to its Rating in combat rounds, which should usually be long enough to get me through most Matrix combats.

If I understand this correctly, I can Compile and Register the Sprite in question far enough ahead of time to let me recover from any Fading damage I'll take (since Compiling and Registering creates a fair amount of Fade). This will let me go for a more powerful sprite which will then aid in the combat (or whatever CF I need).

So, if I were to Compile and Register a Rating 4 sprite (higher than that starts to get tricky with the Registration test coming down to luck), I would then for a Blackhammer program take Blackhammer CF 5 + 2 for threading + Hacking 4 + Logic 5 + Sprite 4 to give me 20 dice on the test? Each net hit would then be added to Blackhammer CF (7) to determine the damage that would need to be resisted?

Or do I not get the Blackhammer hit dice in the initial test because Blackhammer is more like a weapon? In which case I would just be using a Cybercombat or Hacking test with 13 dice?
Tarantula
QUOTE (The Jopp)
1. A sprite can add its rating in dice (not increasing rating, merely dicepool) to a complex form as a task (assist operation) – but there is no mentioning that they cannot use several tasks at once on the same complex forms. 3 tasks to boost Exploit for example from 3 dice to 12 with a rating 3 sprite (sure, only for 3 seconds but hacking on the fly suddenly got LOTS simpler.)

No, it adds its RATING to the complex forms RATING. A 6 sprite aiding your stealth 6 makes it go to 12. Very important. And no, sprite can't assist you multiple times on the same action.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Tarantula)
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Oct 10 2007, 01:18 AM)
1. A sprite can add its rating in dice (not increasing rating, merely dicepool) to a complex form as a task (assist operation) – but there is no mentioning that they cannot use several tasks at once on the same complex forms. 3 tasks to boost Exploit for example from 3 dice to 12 with a rating 3 sprite (sure, only for 3 seconds but hacking on the fly suddenly got LOTS simpler.)

No, it adds its RATING to the complex forms RATING. A 6 sprite aiding your stealth 6 makes it go to 12. Very important. And no, sprite can't assist you multiple times on the same action.

I'm not convinced actually. The wording is as follows:

"A registered sprite can add its rating to any single complex form used by the technomancer."

And then it continues with the example:

"a Rating 3 sprite, for example, can add 3 dice to the technomancer’s Armor complex form for a maximum of 3 Combat Turns."

Now, the Sprite adds ITS rating to a complex form, it never states clearly that the RATING of the complex form is affected but the example talks about a DICE bonus.

Can someone clarify this?
Tarantula
When you add something, you have to add like things. How do you add the sprites rating 3 (in your example) to a complex form, if it isn't to the complex forms rating (3 in the example). Yes, raising the armor to 6 gives an extra 3 more dice to tests in which armor is used, which is why I believe the example is worded the way it is.
galathrax
Quote:
"Hands down, complex forms are the most karma-efficient use of build points. If making a technomancer character, there is no excuse at all for not purchasing every single point possible in complex forms, because they'll be far, far more expensive to buy once the game has begun. The high cost of level 6 complex forms is such that a starting technomancer should bite the bullet and pay the price to get their resonance up to 6; it's worth it. A character with logic 5 can start with ten complex forms. With a resonance 5, that's 160 karma worth of forms, with resonance 6 that shoots up to 220 karma. Resonance 5 (40) + Complex forms (50)=90 BP for 202 karma. Resonance 6 (65) + Complex forms (60) = 125 BP for 280 karma. The ratio is just about identical for both at 2.24, but 2.24 is such a good ratio that any technomancer ought to milk it as much as possible."

http://www.geocities.com/kitsune/sr4bpa.htm
The Jopp
QUOTE (Tarantula)
When you add something, you have to add like things. How do you add the sprites rating 3 (in your example) to a complex form, if it isn't to the complex forms rating (3 in the example). Yes, raising the armor to 6 gives an extra 3 more dice to tests in which armor is used, which is why I believe the example is worded the way it is.

To me it wouldn't raise the rating of the complex form but only be usable at those instances where an opposed/resistance/basic test is used.

Stealth wont be rating 12 when someone looks around for you when your stealth program is 6 but any opposed roll would give you +6D6.

Armour would be at 12D6 when defending but the effective rating would be 6

Far less effective but things get silly when teh technomancer can:

A: Thread something to +6
B: Assign a task for sprite to sustain it
C: Get assist from sprite to +6 more

Thats a complex form with +12 to it's rating

I can agree that THREADING raises the rating but i dont think the same intent was for assist operation (still,debatable like many other odd aspects of the matrix).

It would also effectively make a clear difference between Threading and Assist Operation (aside from one being from skill and the other sprite)
Fortune
QUOTE (The Jopp)
To me it wouldn't raise the rating of the complex form but only be usable at those instances where an opposed/resistance/basic test is used.

Stealth wont be rating 12 when someone looks around for you when your stealth program is 6 but any opposed roll would give you +6D6.

Which means the Threshold for someone (or IC) to detect them would actually be 6, and not 12.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Oct 11 2007, 03:08 PM)
To me it wouldn't raise the rating of the complex form but only be usable at those instances where an opposed/resistance/basic test is used.

Stealth wont be rating 12 when someone looks around for you when your stealth program is 6 but any opposed roll would give you +6D6.

Which means the Threshold for someone (or IC) to detect them would actually be 6, and not 12.

Yes.

Threading would still increase the rating but no Assited operations - it would increase dicepool where applicable.
Tarantula
Which I think is virtually worthless. +Dice are nice, +rating is useful. And at the cost of a service from a regstered sprite, it'd better be +rating.
Fortune
Well, there is a basic rule in SR4 that the rating of Skills themselves cannot be increased by more than half their current level (round up), so if it is an actual addition (as opposed to a dice pool bonus). I like that as a precedent.
Myrddin
OK, I've been playing a Technomancer for a bit over a year and a couple of things I've learned:

Building:

first advice: learn to love your compromise! Technomancers are point hungry characters to build and it is impossible to get everything you think you need. since SR4 is an actual RPG not just a numbers game be sure and come up with a back story that explains your min/max character.

max out your mental stats!!! they become all of the basic characteristics of your living persona and you want all of them high. in order Charisma = Biofeedback filter - resist black ic and number of registered sprites. Intuition = response - initiative, defense against all matrix attacks. Logic = system - resist matrix damage, subscription limit. Willpower = Firewall (!!!!) - defend against matrix attacks, target when being hacked, resist matrix damage and resist fading. if you have ALL of these at 5 to start then you will have a living persona that is almost as good as the very best a hacker could buy as a starting character.

Min physical stats? if you are building a hacker or a rigger your physical stats will almost never matter. hackers are in the matrix and use their living persona, and riggers are jumped into their drone and use it's stats instead of their own.

special stats: I have played very successfully with a resonance of 5. everyone makes a good point about the cost benefit of getting the resonance 6 but I just flat ran out of points. I also started with an edge of 1 and spent the first 27 karma getting that up to a 4 before I did anything else.

Skills: Resonance skills - compiling and registering are great, decompiling is just like banishing: it is easier to kill it then banish it, just make sure you take attack complex form.

Hacking group hell yes. even if you want to be a rigger you will use these skills to take control of other people's drones and defend yours from others.

Electronics group is also great for hackers, less so for riggers. you will use computer for every non-hacking actions like editing the access logs. data search will help you find that access log in the first place and is worth having at half the cost of the skill. software is the skill you use for threading so if you are going to follow everyone's advice about threading up complex forms you have to have it. at which point hardware becomes free so why not take the group?

everyone is saying dodge is a must have skill, which is less true for Techno's then for anyone else. because you almost certainly don't have bio- or cyber- wear you only get one pass in the meat so you are going to want to be "falling down" as soon as possible so that you get more actions in VR (preferably before combat actually starts) making dodge useless. compounding this issue is your very low body (buy up all mental stats, see above) you want to wear good armor so you actually have something to resist damage with and that will lead to penalties to all reaction / agility skill tests, including dodge.

knowledge skills are good from the template but I like professional skill software engineer.

complex forms: unless you have played games to get an excessive logic you will only get 10 complex forms and as everyone agrees max them out when you buy them. stealth is the number one must have. exploit is a must for hackers and useful to riggers. I chose attack over the others combat programs because it works on EVERY target in the matrix. command and spoof are great must haves for riggers and cool for hackers. Analyze is perception in the matrix, you use it to spot targets and to spot hacking against your living persona. armor prevents matrix damage which translates directly into stun damage. the rest will depend on what you specifically want to excel at.

Equipment: get a good commlink and spend for programs and agents. you can then use it as your home node and make all of your hacking attempts through it. this does several things for you: one you now have a cut out if you are being tracked. two it will give you a layer to help prevent your gelware from getting hacked. three you can have your sprites be in that node and provide you with their help where ever you go. four it can have a much higher signal letting you work over greater distances (distance = not getting shot)

Good luck and have fun!!

P.S. as far as all of that stuff with high rating sprites goes, I haven't gone above a rating 6 sprite because my GM has brutal dice luck. averages are the sum of high rolls and low rolls. I have personally had to resist 16 boxes of fading while registering a rating 6 crack sprite. yes that is 8 hits on 12 dice. I spent a week in my AutoDoc. the very concept of handing my GM 24 dice to hurt me with is mind boggling.
Myrddin
QUOTE (Fortune)
Well, there is a basic rule in SR4 that the rating of Skills themselves cannot be increased by more than half their current level (round up), so if it is an actual addition (as opposed to a dice pool bonus). I like that as a precedent.

Except that Complex forms can be threaded to twice the Technomancer's Resonance, and can start at rating 0 for the threading. which just blows that whole 1.5 skill thing out of the water. biggrin.gif
Fortune
I hate Technomancers!
Klaste
About Machine sprites and their ability to boost rolls on electronic devices: it's rather vague, but I don't think it's meant to allow you to add their hits to attack rolls with Smartlinked weapons. I mean, sure, the sprite could make the smartlink program work better; but it's not going to aim the gun for you! Though I suppose you're allowed to let smartlinked guns act as turrets, using autosofts; but that's automated aiming, and a different thing altogether. But it seems to me that the point of this power is to use on things like maglock passkeys, etc. (Are medkits fully electronic, by the way?)

Also, one question that may seem off-topic, but not completely: in Augmentation, there's a quality (Genetic Heritage) that gives you one genetic modification for *free.* What I want to know is if it just means no nuyen, or is it free on essence cost as well? I'm figuring it's just nuyen, but I want to be sure.
Cheops
QUOTE (Klaste)
(Are medkits fully electronic, by the way?)

Also, one question that may seem off-topic, but not completely: in Augmentation, there's a quality (Genetic Heritage) that gives you one genetic modification for *free.* What I want to know is if it just means no nuyen, or is it free on essence cost as well? I'm figuring it's just nuyen, but I want to be sure.

Medkits are automated and can be boosted with a Machine sprite's diagnostic ability.

Genetic heritage only makes the nuyen cost 0. It still takes a Bioware Essence hole. (So Sensitive System doesn't double the cost)
Klaste
I guess for me, it's really tempting to just sacrifice one essence to get as many augmentations as I can, maybe a control rig, maybe a nanohive... and use machine sprites to make them more effective. Or, I guess I can just see myself down the road giving a street sam 5 points of resonance, losing two points through essence loss, but using the remaining resonance (+a high compiling skill) to create machine sprites to make him more effective.

What are the thoughts on this idea?
Nightwalker450
Two clarifications wanted, tell me if I'm right

1 - Technomancer's Complex Forms are skills basically they don't have to load like a Hacker's programs do, they are always within easy reach to access. (Hacker's use a Complex Action to run a program, and have it available.) Benefit Technomancers

2 - Technomancer's can't set Complex Forms on routines, ie Scan and alert me if something happens. Since I'm assuming they are skills the Technomancer must use his own time to perform all actions and can't set the program on auto. Benefit Hackers

--Adding Some More on Here--
3 - If complex forms are skills and not programs, they can't be crashed either. Benefit Technomancers

4 - If a technomancer can't set Complex Forms on routines, than can they use Data Bombs? Since a data bomb is a program that needs to set, or is it that they use the Complex Form to create the Data Bomb... If that is the case can they cease sustaining it once it is created, or do they need to sustain the Data Bomb until it is triggered or disarmed?...

Thanks
Riley37
Does your TM use a comlink?
Sure, they don't HAVE to, but a good comlink with an Agent and some programs doesn't take Karma or BP. You could use CF only for Stealth and Armor, and run programs and/or compile sprites for everything else.
Nightwalker450
QUOTE
Does your TM use a comlink?
Sure, they don't HAVE to, but a good comlink with an Agent and some programs doesn't take Karma or BP. You could use CF only for Stealth and Armor, and run programs and/or compile sprites for everything else.


Actually having a commlink that runs programs takes quite a bit of BP, since Technomancer's Complex Forms use different skills than running Programming. ie Technomancer Hacking <> Standard Hacking. So you'll have to buy your skill groups twice. Also you would then be active in multiple nodes since you'd have your technomancer persona, and your commlink persona running, and if your commlink one doesn't have stealth than there goes that idea. (I do use commlink but just for group communications, and to keep my technohacker capabilities hidden) I'm doing quite a bit with the sprites already, but being limited in numbers limits what they can do, that and I haven't received a significant amount of downtime yet to sit and compile anything as powerful as I'd like in a sprite.

Currently I only have a rating 2 Courier registered, and a rating 3 Machine that hopefully I can get registered. The courier was thrown together just so I could have something Sustain threads for me, so I've reregistered him a few times to get some more tasks. The Machine sprite was just put together so if we all had to get out of the vehicle I could have the Machine Sprite take the wheel. Spent 6 hours working with the Courier, (First Register attempt failed, then registered and reregistered 5 tasks now my dice rolls sucked nyahnyah.gif). The machine sprite has 3 tasks, and once I recover some of my stun damage I'll get him registered... Too much rambling, back to my questions if anyone has answers or can clarify, I know of the other ways to handle stuff, I just need these points clarified for future reference sake.
NightRain
QUOTE (Nightwalker450)
1 - Technomancer's Complex Forms are skills basically they don't have to load like a Hacker's programs do, they are always within easy reach to access. (Hacker's use a Complex Action to run a program, and have it available.) Benefit Technomancers

They're not "skills". They're closer to spells. That is, they're a particular set of memorised instructions that they use /with a skill/ to achieve a given effect.

Now, though I've always assumed it, I can't find anything that says you don't need to load complex actions to use them. So going by a strict interpenetration, I'd say you need to load any given complex form to use it, just as you would a program.

The difference is, that once loaded, too many complex forms do not bring down your response like too many programs would see SR4 p233

QUOTE

2 - Technomancer's can't set Complex Forms on routines, ie Scan and alert me if something happens.  Since I'm assuming they are skills the Technomancer must use his own time to perform all actions and can't set the program on auto.  Benefit Hackers


There is nothing in the rules to indicate they work like you suggest. The complex form replicates the function of a program, so it should be able to do the things the program does.


QUOTE
3 - If complex forms are skills and not programs, they can't be crashed either.  Benefit Technomancers


They aren't skills, and they can be crashed. They can then be loaded back just fine though. I'd have to presume it takes a complex action to load a complex form, just like it does to load a program

QUOTE
4 - If a technomancer can't set Complex Forms on routines, than can they use Data Bombs?  Since a data bomb is a program that needs to set, or is it that they use the Complex Form to create the Data Bomb...  If that is the case can they cease sustaining it once it is created, or do they need to sustain the Data Bomb until it is triggered or disarmed?...

Thanks


Databombs... Interesting idea for a complex form.

As programs, they're run by the node (ie, your commlink) and attached to a given file or device. They're not part of your persona as such, meaning that if you leave your commlink on, but log your persona off, your code is still protected by the data bomb, which is still being ran by your commlink.

Given that a complex form can't be ran on the node the data is stored in like a data bomb, I'd be inclined to say that the databomb is active as long as the technomancer is alive /and/ both the technomancer and the protected file/device are connected to the Matrix.

Probably better off using a sprite with Hash...
Myrddin
QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ Nov 8 2007, 12:37 AM)
Two clarifications wanted, tell me if I'm right

1 - Technomancer's Complex Forms are skills

2 - Technomancer's can't set Complex Forms on routines,

--Adding Some More on Here--
3 - If complex forms are skills and not programs, they can't be crashed either. 

4 - If a technomancer can't set Complex Forms on routines, than can they use Data Bombs?

Thanks

1) Complex Forms are NOT skills. they are no more skills then spells are. the rating that you can thread a complex form up to is limited by resonance not 6 or a base skill.

2) Using a program or Complex form takes the same actions for either a hacker or a technomancer. Loading a program into your icon is a complex action for a hacker (SR4 p.227) but threading (with it's fading and concentration penalties) is a free action for the technomancer (http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml).

3) Complex forms can be crashed (http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml)

4) I would think that technomancers can have programs running "in the background" the best example is the analyze program. it is part of your matrix perception test and is always used by the technomancer.

as for having a complex form running to scan for something or other that is what you use a sprite with the right complex form for.
Myrddin
QUOTE (Klaste)
I guess for me, it's really tempting to just sacrifice one essence to get as many augmentations as I can, maybe a control rig, maybe a nanohive... and use machine sprites to make them more effective. Or, I guess I can just see myself down the road giving a street sam 5 points of resonance, losing two points through essence loss, but using the remaining resonance (+a high compiling skill) to create machine sprites to make him more effective.

What are the thoughts on this idea?

I hear you on that one. if you only want Stuff that will enhance you as a Technomancer then the only cyber- bio- that effects attributes is the Cerebral Booster. anything else only adds dice which doesn't effect your living persona. not that more dice aren't tempting or useful.

The one that I've been having a hard time over is the Synaptic Booster just so I can switch back and forth between meat and VR time without losing initiative passes.
Jaid
combat drugs = second pass (and with your probable low body attribute, cram will likely last a really long time).

edge, when needed, = third pass.

truth be told, a 4th pass isn't really as important anyways, imo. the more IPs you have, the less important the next one is...
Fortune
QUOTE (Jaid)
truth be told, a 4th pass isn't really as important anyways, imo. the more IPs you have, the less important the next one is...

QFT!
Nightwalker450
I was referring to them as skill based on them being called "mental exercises", but yes I am well aware they are handled like spells. But spells are unique in the game, where as complex forms are programs in the form of spells... But the question was if they are mental exercises, how long does it take for a technomancer to "rethink" a complex form? Or will they have to reboot completely to get their complex form back? (Logic + Willpower Extended Test (10, 1 Hour)) Thats why I see them as being uncrashable, but if the FAQ says they can then thats good enough for me, just want to know how to get them back after they've crashed now.

But Complex Forms running in the backgroup, such as Scan or Analyze or Browse. Analyze to monitor node's activity, Scan to search for signals, Browse to data mine or monitor a tap. A hacker can have all of these in the background running (takes no action on his part) but with enough his response time will start to drop. Can a technomancer do this style of multi-tasking as well, or should it require them to compile a sprite and have it handle the "background" processes?

Back to Data Bomb, is each Data Bomb a seperate program, or if you have data bomb can you just put one in every file you own (for hacker). Or same for Technomancer if you have a Data Bomb Complex form can you data bomb every piece of data, or will you have to thread a new data bomb for each file? If a data bomb was threaded would it have to be sustained until it went off, or was defused?
Myrddin
QUOTE (Cheops)
Genetic heritage only makes the nuyen cost 0. It still takes a Bioware Essence hole. (So Sensitive System doesn't double the cost)

OK that seems a bit odd because the whole reason that you loose essence for cyber- bio- & gene- ware is because you are altering the bodies natural wholeness (SR4 - p.61"Essence") if the body grows up from conception with a genetic mod then it isn't being modified that modification is part of it's natural wholeness. if that isn't true that would imply that congenital birth defects also cost essence.

Implanting cyberware in the body is an invasive procedure, so cyberware has an Essence Cost. {and} While it’s true that bioware is less invasive to the body that cyberware, it still has an unbalancing eff ect on the character’s holistic systems. Bioware also has an Essence Cost, just like cyberware.(SR4 - p.64)
Klaste
I don't think he was trying to say bioware didn't cost essence. And I could see how a birth defect could cost essence - in fact, that's a great idea for a negative quality. Don't worry though - it looks like technomancers have their own augs coming. On p.9 of Augmentation, if you look at the little box on Transys NeoNET, it says they're hard at work on a new line of technomancer augmentations.
Myrddin
QUOTE (Klaste)
Don't worry though - it looks like technomancers have their own augs coming. On p.9 of Augmentation, if you look at the little box on Transys NeoNET, it says they're hard at work on a new line of technomancer augmentations.

cool! maybe that will be in the unwired book. which will hopefully also answer a bunch of questions.
NightRain
QUOTE (Nightwalker450)
I was referring to them as skill based on them being called "mental exercises",


Fair enough, but the word skill comes loaded with a bunch of pre-conceptions, almost none of which apply to complex forms

Of course, comparing them to spells comes with its own set of pre-conceptions, but it's a better comparison than skills, though still faulty


QUOTE
but yes I am well aware they are handled like spells.  But spells are unique in the game, where as complex forms are programs in the form of spells...  But the question was if they are mental exercises, how long does it take for a technomancer to "rethink" a complex form?


To reload it after it's crashed? A complex action presumably, as that is what it takes to load a program. They should function identical to programs for the most part, with the odd exception here and there. It's never explicitly stated how long it takes to reload a complex form however.

QUOTE
But Complex Forms running in the backgroup, such as Scan or Analyze or Browse.  Analyze to monitor node's activity, Scan to search for signals, Browse to data mine or monitor a tap.  A hacker can have all of these in the background running (takes no action on his part) but with enough his response time will start to drop.  Can a technomancer do this style of multi-tasking as well, or should it require them to compile a sprite and have it handle the "background" processes?


If the program/CF is running, it's taking up resources already. Getting it to background scan and the like doesn't make it take up more resources. Browse counts as one to your program limit whether it's doing nothing, or scanning every icon that walks in the door of a packed VR/AR shopping mall.

Multiple complex forms explicitly don't effect the response rating of a technomancer. Given how the technomancer starts behind the hacker in many ways, this is one of the key things that allows them to eventually progress beyond a hackers capabilities

QUOTE
Back to Data Bomb, is each Data Bomb a seperate program, or if you have data bomb can you just put one in every file you own (for hacker). 


Not something covered by the rules. Personally, I'd say you could do it either way. Run it once, and defusing it on any file will defuse it on all files. Run it multiple times, and you have to defuse each one separately

QUOTE
Or same for Technomancer if you have a Data Bomb Complex form can you data bomb every piece of data, or will you have to thread a new data bomb for each file?  If a data bomb was threaded would it have to be sustained until it went off, or was defused?


Again, this is not covered explicitly by the rules. I'd simply make the technomancer just run it once, and if it's defused once, they're all defused until he reloads it.

As for the last part of your question, if the data bomb CF was threaded partially or fully, then the increased rating would only last as long as it is sustained. Stop sustaining it, and the rating drops. If the entire complex form was threaded, then it goes away completely.
Nightwalker450
QUOTE
If the program/CF is running, it's taking up resources already. Getting it to background scan and the like doesn't make it take up more resources. Browse counts as one to your program limit whether it's doing nothing, or scanning every icon that walks in the door of a packed VR/AR shopping mall.

Multiple complex forms explicitly don't effect the response rating of a technomancer. Given how the technomancer starts behind the hacker in many ways, this is one of the key things that allows them to eventually progress beyond a hackers capabilities


So is this a vote toward Technomancers being able to run CF's as background processes? I don't see it as being too much of a problem, its just data gathering for the most part. But it is alot of non-actions for the technomancer (Basically add three more simple actions to scan, browse, and analyze per pass, resulting in 5 simple actions.)

---------
Lots of Technomancer stuff from me lately because I'm trying to understand them and the net as best I can. My GM is scared of the Matrix enough as it is, so I'm posting most... controversial maneuvers on dumpshock to weigh reactions before actually pulling such a stunt with him. I don't want a shotgun blast to the Technomancer's head just because he gave the GM a headache... wink.gif
NightRain
QUOTE (Nightwalker450)
So is this a vote toward Technomancers being able to run CF's as background processes? I don't see it as being too much of a problem, its just data gathering for the most part. But it is alot of non-actions for the technomancer (Basically add three more simple actions to scan, browse, and analyze per pass, resulting in 5 simple actions.)

Yes, it's a vote towards CFs being able to be run in the background as a program would.

As for the more "non actions", that's a bit of a misleading comment. Hackers can already run these things as background processes without taking an action so it's not giving them an advantage, it's simply clarifying that Hackers and Technos both work the same way.
Myrddin
QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ Nov 9 2007, 04:38 PM)
So is this a vote toward Technomancers being able to run CF's as background processes?  I don't see it as being too much of a problem, its just data gathering for the most part.  But it is alot of non-actions for the technomancer (Basically add three more simple actions to scan, browse, and analyze per pass, resulting in 5 simple actions.)

There is the mis-conception that running background programs are actions. you have to take the action to set it up. "I set up my analyze complex form (OR program) to check every Icon that comes into the cyberbar" is a complex "use program/complex form" action. from then on we could say it is "running in the background". but what is really happening is that it provides you an opportunity to actually make the perception roll when the Johnson walks into the bar. effectively this puts the technomancer on exactly the same footing as ANY character (not just the hacker) running analyze on their commlink.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012