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Gargs454
I'll start off by apologizing in advance if this is too broad and for not starting off with a build myself, but I'm looking for just some basic thoughts on technomancers as opposed to actual builds.

Essentially, I've decided to branch out and actually play a hacker type for a change (never done it before) and I decided that since my GM is going to be using some plot hooks from Emergence that it might be cool to run a TM. The problem though is that I've never done a hacker/decker before, so I really am not sure where to start.

Obviously, the mental attributes and resonance are key and need to be bumped as high as possible from the outset (perhaps even Exceptional Attribute: W for the firewall and other skills??) I'm also going to be looking to be the main hacker (in terms of beating security systems, getting info, getting us in and out -- as opposed to rigging drones and the like). So obviously, skills such as Cracking, Datasearch, and all the main matrix related skills are important.

But, are there skills in these areas that are dumpable, or should I just be looking at the groups instead? Obviously my physical attributes are more or less dump stats, but what about any other mental attributes? Can a technomancer be effective without always being "in the meat"? Or do I need to invest a few BP in dodge because I'll generally be with the rest of the group (i.e. can I hack the security systems from afar typically?)

Finally, I know I'll need to invest in the Complex forms. Any recommendations on how many I should look to start with?

Any other helpful pointers would be appreciated, and I apologize again if I'm not being specific enough. If that's the case, I'll try to respond and provide more info as needed.

Thanks in advance!
Eurotroll
I recall dimly someone mentioning that the real power of TMs lies in Sprites, considering that they are rather more fragile than Hackers (seeing how any damage done to them in the Matrix translates directly into very real damage). I can't seem to find the post right now though... but that's something you should look into.
Tarantula
Indeed, crank up your resonance and compiling, as well as willpower (resonance + compiling for the compile test) (resonance + willpower for the fading test) and make some rating 12 sprites. Bonus if you want to spec your compiling (i'd go for courier for utility, or machine for diagnostics). Bonuses of this build, you can also thread your own forms high as well (provided you keep your software decent too).

The way you get around the stun damage is either, stim patches, or machine sprites with diagnostics on medkits. High rating courier sprites (rating 12) come with quite a few skills/powers. Computer, Data Search, Hacking, analyze, encrypt, stealth, track, transfer, and rating 12 lets you get 4 optional powers of the following, browse, command, decrypt, exploit, scan.

I'd recomment exploit, decrypt, browse and scan.

Said sprite has rating 12 of all of those complex forms (steath is really the important one though), and rolls rating (12) + skill (12) for matrix actions. Thats 24 dice for just about every matrix action you'll need. Keep him registered, and never worry about the compiling drain again.

To compile him initially (I'd recommend taking the edge codeslinger, for compiling) giving you resonance 6 + skill 6 + spec 2 + codeslinger 2 for 16 dice against his rating 12 dice. Chances are, you'll get a few successes. To resist the drain, you're looking at twice what hits the sprite got (probably 4) so around 8S. Take your will + resonance (12) and you probably drop that down to about 4S. A decent medkit, and you're all better.

Then, registering. Thats where you throw in edge to get him regstered. And, there you go, a super hacker in a box.
Gelare
QUOTE (Gargs454)
Obviously, the mental attributes and resonance are key and need to be bumped as high as possible from the outset (perhaps even Exceptional Attribute: W for the firewall and other skills??)

Yes and no, in that order. All the mental attributes and Resonance should be as high as possible, but you can't afford to take Exceptional Attribute. Trust me on this: there is no archetype more starved for build points and karma than the technomancer. When making one, I usually go straight 2s in physical stats and straight 5s in mental stats, plus 5 resonance.

QUOTE
I'm also going to be looking to be the main hacker (in terms of beating security systems, getting info, getting us in and out -- as opposed to rigging drones and the like).  So obviously, skills such as Cracking, Datasearch, and all the main matrix related skills are important.  But, are there skills in these areas that are dumpable, or should I just be looking at the groups instead?

It kinda depends on how reliant you want to be on your sprites, but take note: you don't need to take the electronics skill group because software and hardware are useless to you, so you can reduce 10 BP/rank to 8 BP/rank for the two remaining skills. This also allows you to take specializations in those skills, which you totally should. There was something else I remember being able to dump, I think electronic warfare.

QUOTE
Obviously my physical attributes are more or less dump stats, but what about any other mental attributes?  Can a technomancer be effective without always being "in the meat"?  Or do I need to invest a few BP in dodge because I'll generally be with the rest of the group (i.e. can I hack the security systems from afar typically?)

Everybody needs ranks in Etiquette, Perception, and Dodge. Everybody. Don't forget Dodge Specialization: Ranged Combat.

QUOTE
Finally, I know I'll need to invest in the Complex forms.  Any recommendations on how many I should look to start with?

As many as you possibly can, but since you can thread and compile sprites, other things come first. Since you'll probably be stunning yourself a lot, invest in some way around that, maybe stim patches.

QUOTE
Thanks in advance!

Glad to help! I've always liked the Matrix characters, I hope this one works out well for you. smile.gif
Eurotroll
I wouldn't call Software useless, considering that Threading is a Resonance+Software test. It may be a little less useful than for a hacker, but it's not merely a waste of BP.
Jaid
i personally worry a little bit less about mental attributes than most people i've seen play technomancers... i guess i'm just weird =P resonance, however, is absolutely critical: it caps your CFs, helps you resist fading, limits how high you can thread your forms, etc. willpower is definitely a nice one, but the others are more of a "nice but not required". then again, i like my TMs to be able to be good riggers as well, since they can do so well at it... in any case, resonance is one of the few attributes i would actually consider maxing out (if you have enough starting CFs, it is cheaper to buy all your CFs to 6 now than it is to do it later).

as far as skills, from the resonance group you only need compiling and registering (registering is free, remember). for electronics you want computer (matrix perception checks are important!) data search, and software (threading is also important). as such, you may as well take the group and get hardware for free. from hacking, you may or may not care about cybercombat and electronic warfare... heck, you probably just flat out don't really care much about electronic warfare at all, 99% of the time (it's one of those areas a sprite or a good CF will cover for). cybercombat you should either take at a low rating with a specialisation in defense, or at a high rating with a specialisation in beating the living crud outta people (depending... either your TM is going to be *really* good at cybercombat, or he's going to be really bad. most likely bad. use sprites for it, is my advice).

as was said above, however, *everyone* needs to have a few specific skills: dodge, (unless you have both gymnastics and a melee skill) infiltration, con/etiquette, and perception are the big ones. it's hard to take all of those though, so probably forget about infiltration, and keep your perception low (but heavily buffed with gear, and try to keep a machine sprite with a high rating clearsight autosoft in a drone/sensor nearby). for TMs, a good first aid skill (specialising in fading) is not a bad idea, if possible.

as far as what CFs to take, my advice:

analyse, armor, exploit, stealth, edit, and spoof are the most important imo. if you expect to use them, command (for controlling drones etc) attack, black hammer and blackout all benefit from high ratings more than most other programs, and are programs you might expect to need at the same time as other programs, which is probably the biggest concern: any program you're going to need to use while needing other programs, you will want as a CF. otherwise, you'll be at -2 or more dice to most of your actions.
WearzManySkins
@Tarantula
Remember that Awakened (mages and TM) have a healing disadvantage "All Biotech and Medicine tests suffer a -2 dice pool modifier when used on Awakened characters."
"consequently the rule above applies equally to Technomancers."

To me this says that used a medkit or a medkit with spirites still suffers the -2 dice mod.

Got to get that magical healing, or a specialization of Medicine (Magical Health) which will remove the -2 dice.

WMS
Buster
QUOTE (WearzManySkins)
@Tarantula
Remember that Awakened (mages and TM) have a healing disadvantage "All Biotech and Medicine tests suffer a -2 dice pool modifier when used on Awakened characters."
"consequently the rule above applies equally to Technomancers."

To me this says that used a medkit or a medkit with spirites still suffers the -2 dice mod.

Got to get that magical healing, or a specialization of Medicine (Magical Health) which will remove the -2 dice.

WMS

What page is that on? Synner keeps insisting that technomancers aren't awakened.
WearzManySkins
Augmentation page 123
Under heading "Medical Care for the Awakened and Technomancers"

Good luck there maybe enough wiggle room for him to say they are not. biggrin.gif

WMS
Buster
Is Decompiling worthwhile? I know that for a mage, Banishing is almost completely useless since a Stunball spell is a lot safer. Is there a better trick to ganking Sprites than Decompiling?
Buster
Also, how the heck do you Register a rating 12 sprite? It rolls 24 dice versus your resonance 6 + skill 4 + spec 2 + edge 8 = 20 dice. Even if by some miracle you get one net success over the sprite, you're still left with a sprite with no tasks. You'd have to spend another 8 hours and an Edge point to get 1 possible task (with sprite's 24 dice versus your 20 dice, you'd most likely fail). After a week of this you'd be ready for a run with one sprite with no tasks, and you'd have depleted your Edge pool. Hopefully I'm missing something, like a Technomancer Power Focus or something....
Cabral
Well your odds are a bit better since 6 "explode" when you use edge. So on average your 20 dice are actually 23 dice ...
Buster
Yeah, but that's still even dice which is net zero hits, which means the sprite doesn't even get registered in the first place let alone get a second net hit to gain a task.

Anyone invent a power focus for technomancers yet?
WearzManySkins
Since for a starting character RAW puts a limit of rating 6. To me that says only rating 6 sprites.

WMS
Tarantula
Actually Wearz, its on the healing modifiers table SR4, 244. "Patient is magician, adept, or technomancer. -2"

There is no "magical health" specialization of first aid. Just by treatment type. I'd go for fading damage if your GM allows it. If they don't, go for stun.

As a side note, technomancers are NOT awakened. They don't have a magic attribute, which is required to be awakened.

Buster: Yeah, theres a better trick, spoof the sprite. Only technos can spoof a sprite, but you just need to perceive the controlling persona first. Spoof it on some goosechase, like, hack neonets mainframe. It'll get destroyed.

As far as registering... on the intital compilation (16 vs 12 dice) you end up with probably 2 net successes, giving you 2 tasks. Then you register, resonance 6 + skill 6 + spec 2 = 14 dice, vs his 24 dice. 24 dice average 8 hits, you average 5. Reroll your failures (9 dice) for another 3 hits. After that, you're up to luck. Or you could always go for rating 10. 20 dice is plenty for most tasks anyway.

Wearz, as far as the first aid. Rating 6 medkit + rating 12 machine sprite using diagnostics, gets double rating for a dicepool and hits are added to the using characters DP. 24 average 8 hits. Techno has skill 4 + 2 spec + 6 medkit + 8 diagnostics -2 for being a techno. Net dice... 18. Average 6 hits, Threshold 2, hits over that heal damage. (Stim patch avoids negative modifiers), 6 hits - 2 for threshold = 4 damage healed. Technomancer is fine.
Wasabi
Tarantula is right on the money with how to make and utilaize a TM. Just a few additional points:

1. The Diagnostics power of a machine sprite means any device that has access to a matrix-enabled commlink can get mad crazy bonuses. Since the Diagnostics power adds to all dice to use the device, you can improve a traditional hacker's commlink, a riggers car, an autodoc, or even things like cybereyes and smartgun links. It makes it so a TM is able to make the team better.

2. Cookie Power. Its a spy thats hard to detect. Remember that the Resonance link means a TM has telepathy to his sprites.

3. Hash Power. Unbreakable encryption provided the baddies dont have a TM of their own.

4. The optional power of a machine sprite can be a autosoft. This is granted at the sprite's rating. This means a drone-using TM can have a Gunnery-9 autosoft from compiling and depending on if your GM does sprites as TM's (not limited by Response/Signal) or as Hackers (limited by Response/Signal) you may can have some really REALLY observant and competent sprites controlling drones which you can use telepathy to deliver instructions to via the Resonance Link.

TM's are a beautiful thing!
Fortune
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Oct 6 2007, 04:25 PM)
There is no "magical health" specialization of first aid.  Just by treatment type.

But there is for 'Medicine' (in Augmentation), which is what he wrote.
Wasabi
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Wearz, as far as the first aid. Rating 6 medkit + rating 12 machine sprite using diagnostics, gets double rating for a dicepool and hits are added to the using characters DP. 24 average 8 hits. Techno has skill 4 + 2 spec + 6 medkit + 8 diagnostics -2 for being a techno. Net dice... 18. Average 6 hits, Threshold 2, hits over that heal damage. (Stim patch avoids negative modifiers), 6 hits - 2 for threshold = 4 damage healed. Technomancer is fine.

And if its an autodoc instead of a medkit the TM can tell the sprite to do its thing to heal him when his biomonitor shows a problem allowing the TM to stay in full VR.
Tarantula
Except, then theres no skill, -6 (4 skill and 2 spec) making your average 4 hits, healing only 2 of the 4 damage.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Oct 6 2007, 04:25 PM)
There is no "magical health" specialization of first aid.  Just by treatment type.

But there is for 'Medicine' (in Augmentation), which is what he wrote.

Medicine, is long term care, not actual healing. Medicine assists natural healing tests, while first aid actually heals damage. Thus, a medicine (magical health) skill is worthless in this context.
WearzManySkins
@Tarantula
Ok chicken or the egg, how does the TM get the rating 12 machine sprite to put into the medkit, to use to heal the damage done while trying to get a rating 12 sprite?

Also is using a sprite thru a medkit a remote operation? if so a -2 dice penalty.

Also Medicine does heal damage it just takes longer than a medkit. Surgical damage is still damage.

WMS
Tarantula
Getting the sprite... it easy. Compile it, order it to diagnose the medkit, then heal the stun away.

The sprite isn't using the medkit at all, the technomancer is. The sprite uses its diagnostics power, giving the techno +8 dice for using the medkit.

Medicine does NOT heal damage. It merely aids in the natural damage healing tests.
WearzManySkins
@Tarantula
OK you have a rating 12 sprite going to use it in a medkit, let say the TM has a resonance of 6 and a compiling of 6 TM has 12 dice to resist the fading of sprites 12 dice. Both get 4 successes, no net successes no sprite.

You might look at the Mystical Healing optional rule in Augmentation.

It is stated that Medicine deals with Long Term Healing, nothing said about natural. Having a IV and tubes plugged into you is not natural healing. biggrin.gif Pumping steroids, antibiotics, putting someone on ECMO or heart lung bypass is not Natural healing, it is Medicine.

I now why some like AH do not allow TM's in their games.sarcastic.gif

WMS
WearzManySkins
@Tarantula
A rating 12 sprite unregistered lasts 8 hours, registering a rating 12 sprite takes 12 hours. Unregistered sprite has gone away when the registering of the rating 12 sprite has finished.

Compiling and or registering is a complex task, using a medkit is a complex task. Applying a stimulant patch is a simple action. A rating 6 stimulant patch lasts 60 minutes.

When a TM with a Resonance of 6 and a has Registering of 6 the opposed test the Sprite has 24 dice versus the TM's 14 dice, the Sprite gets 8 hits.

Time line
Compiles an unregistered sprite to place in the medkit.
Applies a rating 6 Stimulant patch.
Spends 12 hours registering the sprite(complex action), at that time, the unregistered sprite is gone, and the stimulant patch has worn off and given the TM 1 point of stun.
TM has to resist fading at the end of the 12 hours complex action.
He does not have any actions left that AP to apply a stimulant patch or use the medkit with out its unregistered sprite.

The registering of the sprite the sprite got 8 successes on the opposed test. TM has Willpower of 6 and a Resonance of 6 total of 12 dice, average of 4 hits, so 4 points of physical damage is left.

The TM has 4 points of physical damage and 1 point of stun damage, before he can use the stimulant patch or the medkit(with out a sprite). Applying a rating 6 stimulant patch removes the 1 point of stun(simple action). Using the medkit rating 6(complex action) with a built in logic of 6 with a -1 from the physical damage, -2 from being a TM, and for remote use of Medkit -2 so TM has 7 dice average of 2 successes.

So now the TM has 2 boxes of physical damage and after 60 minutes 1 box of stun.

That damage the TM has to heal naturally. biggrin.gif

If the TM used any edge to lessen the fade impact, he will more than likely be out of edge until sometime later during or at the end of the run.

So go ahead and register those rating 12 sprites up to you charisma rating. Just make sure you do it in between runs, and doing so will take about 6 runs before you get all six of a charisma 6. With out edge,,,I do not think the TM will survive the runs. nyahnyah.gif

WMS
Arashi
Unless there has been a rule change somewhere... the TM is NOT going to survive registering any Rating 12 Sprite.

Reference: SR4, pp237, bottom right:

"If the rating of the threaded complex form exceeds the technomancer's Resonance, the damage is Physical rather than Stun."

and

"For compiling or registering a sprite, the Fading DV equals twice the hits (not net hits) generated by the sprite on the Opposed Test"

Ok, those 8 successes that the rating 12 sprite will achieve on average will produce SIXTEEN (16) boxes of physical damage. Um, yeah.

Heal that naturally with your 2 body, because I know the team mage isn't going to want to risk the drain on touching that one.

I play a TM in my game, and after over a year and around 210 karma I'm only at Resonance 7 (and 2 body, still)... I have taken weeks and weeks between-run downtime to just build my stable of rating 7 Sprites and maintain them with a good amount of services each. That rule about Fading = (2 x the base sprite successes) really keeps you hopping. With the rolls I've had and the damage I've had to rest off, I can't see even trying to Register anything over my Resonance just for fear of the immense physical damage I could take.
Tarantula
QUOTE (WearzManySkins)
@Tarantula
A rating 12 sprite unregistered lasts 8 hours, registering a rating 12 sprite takes 12 hours. Unregistered sprite has gone away when the registering of the rating 12 sprite has finished.

Arguable, depending on your GM.

QUOTE (WMS)
Compiling and or registering is a complex task, using a medkit is a complex task. Applying a stimulant patch is a simple action. A rating 6 stimulant patch lasts 60 minutes.

When a TM with a Resonance of 6 and a has Registering of 6 the opposed test the Sprite has 24 dice versus the TM's 14 dice, the Sprite gets 8 hits.

Time line
Compiles an unregistered sprite to place in the medkit.
Applies a rating 6 Stimulant patch.
Spends 12 hours registering the sprite(complex action), at that time, the unregistered sprite is gone, and the stimulant patch has worn off and given the TM 1 point of stun.
TM has to resist fading at the end of the 12 hours complex action.
He does not have any actions left that AP to apply a stimulant patch or use the medkit with out its unregistered sprite.

Timeline is incorrect. Corrected timeline:
Compiles unregistered machine sprite.
Takes 4P of damage from fading.
Has unregistered sprite diagnose medkit.
Uses medkit at skill + spec + diagnostics + rating - techno - wounds (4 + 2 + 8 + 6 -2 -1) For a total DP of 17. Average 6 successes. All damage healed.
Begins registering sprite.
Resists fading.

QUOTE (WMS)
The registering of the sprite the sprite got 8 successes on the opposed test.  TM has Willpower of 6 and a Resonance of 6 total of 12 dice, average of 4 hits, so 4 points of physical damage is left.

As far as registering the sprite, you have resonance + registering + spec, for 14 dice. (5 hits average) throw in edge to get 3 more, and its up to luck for if you register it or not successfully.
Actually, its 2xhits by sprite, so he's looking at 16P damage from fading for registering. He has 12 dice base, 4 hits on average. Dropping damage to 12P. At this point, he still hasn't survived, so he needs to spend his edge. Rerolling failures (9 dice) for 3 more hits, taking the total down to 9P. He survives!

QUOTE (WMS)
The TM has 4 points of physical damage and 1 point of stun damage, before he can use the stimulant patch or the medkit(with out a sprite). Applying a rating 6 stimulant patch removes the 1 point of stun(simple action). Using the medkit rating 6(complex action) with a built in logic of 6 with a -1 from the physical damage, -2 from being a TM, and for remote use of Medkit -2 so TM has 7 dice average of 2 successes.

So now the TM has 2 boxes of physical damage and after 60 minutes 1 box of stun.

That damage the TM has to heal naturally. biggrin.gif

Actually, hes at 9P, with a registered rating 12 machine sprite, with 2-4 services. Once he heals that up (either a mage friend or something) he can then go about getting ahold of a rating 12 courier sprite. (Also, sidenote, theres nothing that says multiple machine sprites can't diagnose the same thing for a stacked effect, so you could instead just compile cha-1 machine sprites at rating 6 very easily (registering them as well) and have all of those (say, 3) diagnose the medkit, at 36 dice total, for a bonus using it of +13 dice. I think this is pushing it a bit too far though.)

QUOTE (WMS)
If the TM used any edge to lessen the fade impact, he will more than likely be out of edge until sometime later during or at the end of the run.

So go ahead and register those rating 12 sprites up to you charisma rating. Just make sure you do it in between runs, and doing so will take about 6 runs before you get all six of a charisma 6. With out edge,,,I do not think the TM will survive the runs. nyahnyah.gif

WMS

The whole point of having the rating 12 sprite is to make it between runs, during downtime. You use it during screentime, because thats when you need it.

QUOTE (WMS)
You might look at the Mystical Healing optional rule in Augmentation.

It is stated that Medicine deals with Long Term Healing, nothing said about natural. Having a IV and tubes plugged into you is not natural healing. biggrin.gif Pumping steroids, antibiotics, putting someone on ECMO or heart lung bypass is not Natural healing, it is Medicine.

Again, medicine only augments your natural healing test, it does not, in and of itself, heal damage. First aid does. There is no mystical or traditional first aid specialization.
Wasabi
QUOTE (WearzManySkins)
is using a sprite thru a medkit a remote operation?

If the avatar for the TM is in the node that has the medkit subscribed then it is not a remote operation.

By-the-by, to make a truly uber TM have a mage cast Increase Willpower on the TM. It aids in Fading and in how many boxes of stun the TM can take and remain conscious.

A rating 12 sprite is almost impossible and quite pointless. Sure its a double fistful of dice but what does it gain? Power escalation through the roof?

Its not like a threaded, aided TM with Stealth, Analyze, Blackhammer, and Exploit of 12 isn't bad enough...
[And yeah, thats 8 services from registered sprites to aid and sustain threading but thats not the point... the point is that a rating 12 registered sprite is near impossible, can be fatal, and isn't needed to seriously slant an already slanted situation!]
WearzManySkins
@Tarantula
By RAW BBB page 235
"After 8 hours, Sprites de rez" No argument needed, it is RAW.

Also by RAW you only get one complex action per action phase. Not two like you are attempting to get away with.

So now we know that after 12 hours, the unregistered sprite is gone, so your example has several holes in it.

Compiling a unregistered/registering a sprite is a complex action, just like when a mage summons a sprite, the fade/drain his at the end of that complex action, not the next action phases complex action. You are attempting to get more actions that are allowed in a action phase. Complex and a free action, but not a complex and simple, or a complex and a complex.

From Busters comments 23 dice versus 24 dice, average no successes.

Spending karma between runs, is not a good idea, most GM's will not refresh it until the run has begun or at the end of the run.

At 9P using a rating 6 medkit, not matter how many dice you throw, you can only heal 6 boxes maximum.

Remember that the character is at 9P damage so he will be at a -3 dice due to the wounds. Lets see -3 dice for wounds, -2 dice for being a TM total of -5 dice, medkit 6 and medkits logic rating 6, 12 dice - 5 is 8 dice. Maybe 3 successes so the TM will be a 6P wounds, and -2 dice to all actions until he heals.

@Wasabi
From the description of Registering a Sprite, the TM has to be "Totally" disconnected form any peripherals ie medkit. So that makes using a Medkit a remote operation.

Also from my reading of Augmentation page 123, anyone with Medicine (Magical Health) effectively negate the -2 dice pool modifier when used on Awakened patients.
That modifier covers All Biotech(First Aide) and Medicine tests.

So if the character using the medkit or using first aide has Medicine (Magical Healing) that character does not the -2 dice pool modifier.

Also by the FAQ, Fading physical damage can not be healed my magical means.

WMS
Tarantula
QUOTE (WMS)
@Tarantula
By RAW BBB page 235
"After 8 hours, Sprites de rez" No argument needed, it is RAW.

Yeah, and also, by RAW, you can register a sprite. It takes rating in hours to do so, and, at the end, the sprite is registered and hangs around until all its services are used.

I.E. Following completely raw you start registering the sprite, 8 hours go by, the sprite disappears, 4 more hours go by (total of 12) and the sprite reappears as a registered sprite (assuming you succeeded).

QUOTE (WMS)
Also by RAW you only get one complex action per action phase. Not two like you are attempting to get away with.

So now we know that after 12 hours, the unregistered sprite is gone, so your example has several holes in it.

What two complex actions am I trying to get away with? Yes, after 12 hours the unregistered sprite is gone, because it turns into a registered sprite.

QUOTE (WMS)
Compiling a unregistered/registering a sprite is a complex action, just like when a mage summons a sprite, the fade/drain his at the end of that complex action, not the next action phases complex action. You are attempting to get more actions that are allowed in a action phase. Complex and a free action, but not a complex and simple, or a complex and a complex.

Correct. You compile the first sprite, thats a complex action. Then you order it to diagnose the medkit, thats a simple. Guess what, you're into the second IP now. Then you go back to your meat body. Now we're on a new combat turn, first IP. You first aid your damage away. (I already explained how, the technomancer has a first aid skill, specialized for fading damage). Its not a remote use of the medkit, the technomancer is using the medkit physically, with his hands. Heals away the 4P he gets from compiling a rating 12 sprite. Now we're on the 3rd combat turn from the start. Now he starts registering the sprite. So really, in 7 hours 59 minutes and 48 seconds the sprite will de-rez, if you want to be that anal.

QUOTE (WMS)
From Busters comments 23 dice versus 24 dice, average no successes.

Spending karma between runs, is not a good idea, most GM's will not refresh it until the run has begun or at the end of the run.

So, then use it if you have any left at the end of the run. You don't really need the rating 12 sprite. As you drop the rating of the sprite, it gets considerably easier and easier to still do it. Rating 8 sprites are quite easy.

QUOTE (WMS)
At 9P using a rating 6 medkit, not matter how many dice you throw, you can only heal 6 boxes maximum.

Actually, in my example, the TM only has a skill of 4, so he can only heal 4 boxes at most (boxes healed is limited by skill).

QUOTE (WMS)
Remember that the character is at 9P damage so he will be at a -3 dice due to the wounds. Lets see -3 dice for wounds, -2 dice for being a TM total of -5 dice, medkit 6 and medkits logic rating 6, 12 dice - 5 is 8 dice. Maybe 3 successes so the TM will be a 6P wounds, and -2 dice to all actions until he heals.


You forget, its a threshold of 2 for first aid. So, 3 successes = 1 box healed. His dicepool is larger than 8, btw. skill + spec + diagnostics + rating - techno - wounds (4 + 2 + 8 + 6 -2 -3) For a total DP of 15. Average 5 successes. Means he gets 3 boxes of it taken care of.

QUOTE (WMS)
@Wasabi
From the description of Registering a Sprite, the TM has to be "Totally" disconnected form any peripherals ie medkit. So that makes using a Medkit a remote operation.

Also from my reading of Augmentation page 123, anyone with Medicine (Magical Health) effectively negate the -2 dice pool modifier when used on Awakened patients.
That modifier covers All Biotech(First Aide) and Medicine tests.

So if the character using the medkit or using first aide has Medicine (Magical Healing) that character does not the -2 dice pool modifier.

Also by the FAQ, Fading physical damage can not be healed my magical means.

WMS

You don't have to go VR to use a medkit. You can actually, you know, apply the gauze and injections yourself. Thats what actually having a first aid skill is for.

From Aug, 123, you may specialze your MEDICINE skill, not your first aid skill. So, while specializing your MEDICINE skill negates the penalty for MEDICINE tests, it has absolutely nothing to do with first aid and first aid tests.

As a side note: This techno can quite easily compile and register rating 8 sprites, which are almost as good, and he can fairly easily keep a stable of them up.
Fortune
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Actually, in my example, the TM only has a skill of 4, so he can only heal 4 boxes at most (boxes healed is limited by skill).

Actually, it is limited by the Skill or the rating of the Medkit if one is used.
Tarantula
Oh, well then, fantastic! Thanks for pointing that out.
Kyoto Kid
...so, basically the maximum damage any mundane medic can "repair" is 7 boxes (if she has aptitude in First Aid).
WearzManySkins
@KK
Yes that is the way I read it.

@Tarantula
Until the Matrix/Technomancer multi issues get addressed at some time in the future, I would say any sprite you attempting to register is basically on hold while attempt to register it. Ie if it takes 12 hours it is there for 12 hours, but nothing in RAW gives that lee way.

But an unregistered sprite the clock is 8 hours, unless some future book says otherwise.

As soon as you compile/register a sprite, you pay the Fade at that action, not several actions later. Not after you have given a command to a sprite and hooked yourself up to a Medkit. After the TM has paid the Fade for the compiling, then he can command/instruct a sprite and hook himself to the medkit.

In your example you would not get the diagnostics due the the compiled sprite is gone. It is not anal, just reading RAW, if you have a house rule say so. Do not attempt to mislead anyone into believing it is RAW. So the total dice for healing using a medkit is 7. Average of 2 hits, leaving 7 boxes of physical damage.

My mistake the medkit does not have a Logic rating so you would have to use the TM's guessing it is a 6.

Go back and reread the paragraphs on page 123.

Page 123
QUOTE

Awakened individuals respond erratically to many standard treatments; consequently, all Biotech and Medicine tests suffer a –2 dice pool modifier when used on Awakened patients (as noted on the Healing Modifiers table, p. 244, SR4). Characters may specialize their Medicine skill in Magical Health, however, effectively negating the penalty. This is one area where traditional medicine stands at a marked advantage over modern medical techniques. If the character is using the Traditional Medicine or Magical Health specializations of the Medicine skill, such penalties are negated.


Biotech is comprised of Cybertechnology, First Aide, and Medicine.

Advantages of a having someone more medically technical(Magical Health) in a first aide situation. at least that is the way I read the above paragraph.

Yes there are two sentences that not totally in sync with each other. frown.gif

WMS
Tarantula
First, you continue saying that I'm not taking the fading.

I AM! I take the fading, average of 8P from a rating 12 sprite (4 hits, take double). 6 Willpower + 6 resonance is an average of 4 hits, reducing it to a 4P that is actually taken. From that 4P, the technomancer then, THE NEXT IP, commands the sprite to diagnose the medkit. Then, once the medkit has been diagnosed, he goes to first aid his damage taken. At a 4 skill + 2 spec + 6 medkit + 6 logic + 8 diagnostics - 2 technomancer - 1 wound modifier = 23 dice. Average of 7 or 8 hits, and caps at 6 due to the medkit. Technomancer heals all fading damage that was taken.

Please, tell me how I cannot do this.

As far as registering, the text says at 8 hours an unregistered sprite goes away. It also says that after rating hours and a successful registering test, an unregistered sprite becomes registered and doesn't go away. They're in conflict. The by the letter rule would be that the sprite disappears after 8 hours, but reappears once the registration is successful.

As far as the magical health specialization, in the section you quoted, the book specifies "biotech and medicine". If you specialize your medicine skill in magical health, then yes, it would negate the penalty associated with medicine tests.

It also doesn't actually negate the penalty, specialization adds 2 dice. So really, a doctor with medicine 6 (Magical health) and logic 6 treating a mage/technomancer/adept dice pool looks like this. 6 skill + 2 specialization + 6 logic - 2 awakened penalty = 12 dice.

Having the first aid specialized in fading damage is still "effectively" negating the awakened/technomancer penalty. As my specialization is still in effect. Having my medicine skill specialized in magical health only applies to MEDICINE tests. (Also, please note, magical health is a valid specialization listed in SR4 for medicine, it is NOT listed for first aid, nor is it listed for cybertechnology (the only other two skills in the biotech skill group). Thusly, magical health is only a valid specialization for the medicine skill, and does not actually remove the penalty for treating an awakened person, its bonus merely negates the penalty for treating an awakened person.
Arashi
No offense to anyone, but I just used the chargen program to spec-out the Sprite-maker character - and it's useless.

400 points buys you:
Technomancer - 5pts
Codeslinger - 10 for Registering, I think would make the most sense
6 Willpower - 65
6 Resonance - 65
6 Cha - 65, for the Stable of Sprites you are trying to build
Lucky and 8 Edge - 95
Registering 6 with Spec - 26
Compiling 4 with Spec - 18
Cybercombat 4 - 16
Hacking 4 -16
First Aid 4 with Spec - 18

All this = 403 points, needs some negative qualities just to get under 400 and afford the street doc contact he'll obviously need to employ. (scores of 1 in body, rea, str, agi, log, int - UGH!)

oh, and BTW, you have no remaining BP so you don't have ANY Complex Forms - GL on that hacking career, threading with no Software skill for all the CFs

Bottom line - If I were playing in this game and I met this guy interviewing to be on my runner team, he wouldn't make it in the door. If I was running the game, I'd do the actual rolls for the Fading (instead of just averaging successes per 4 die pool) just for that one random time that the Sprite gets 12+ hits on 24 dice and kills the TM outright. Heck, with a low body, he'd die outright from overflow before he ever got to tell his sprite to help him w/the kit. Death by Powergaming.

Even if you were using some sane house rules to make TMs somewhat valid (like hacking rolls = to Logic + Skill, CFs bought like spells for 3 BP, etc.) you wouldn't have a real character.

If someone hops on the board and wants an inspiration for a real Technomancer character that would be fun to play, at least consider that you advised him to powergame and make a character useless in most aspects of any fun game.

My advice for the prospective TM player would be more along the lines of taking 5's for mental stats and general Living Persona Tough , putting the Influence Group in there at 2-3 along with Cracking and Electronics Groups at 4 and making him a Hacker/Face - since Charisma is good for Technomancers anyway, they make good faces.

YMMV, have a great one.
WearzManySkins
@Tarantula
BBB page 242
QUOTE

Using Medicine
Characters with the Medicine skill may help speed the healing process. Medicine is not meant to be applied in combat situations (First Aid applies to medical help in combat).
The character makes a Medicine + Logic Test; apply appropriate situational modifiers, including wound modifiers if a character is applying the Medicine skill to her own wounds. Each hit provides +1 die to any subsequent healing tests the character makes for healing through rest, as noted above.
A glitch doubles the character’s healing time. A critical glitch not only doubles the healing time, but increases damage by 1D3 boxes.
Medicine may only be applied once to each set of wounds, but it may be applied even if First Aid and/or magical healing have already been used. Additional damage taken afterward counts as a new set of wounds.
Medicine may be used to diagnose a character’s health in the same manner as First Aid.


As for the conflicting issues about sprites, we can both hope that future books resolve the issues.
Wasabi
Whether a sprites is doing a remote task or not is based on the location of the TM. If the TM has registered the sprite (diconnected from peripherals of course) then the TM calls the sprite from the Deep Resonance while he has a medkit (or autodoc) subscribed to his matrix-enabled commlink then the sprite is located in the same node as the TM and not acting remotely. The medkit in my example is part of that users PAN so its not remote.
Wasabi
QUOTE (Arashi)
6 Willpower - 65
[snip]
6 Cha - 65, for the Stable of Sprites you are trying to build

Can only have 1 base stat at 6 at chargen so a player can get CHA *OR* WIL at 6 starting off. Also, Elves does well in the Sprite-mastermind role with their +2 CHA. It sounds unnecessary but when you consider how many types of sprites there are its nice to get 1 of each type and still be able to get an extra fault sprite and machine sprite or 3.
Fortune
n/m
Buster
QUOTE (Wasabi)
QUOTE (Arashi @ Oct 7 2007, 01:37 AM)
6 Willpower - 65
[snip]
6 Cha - 65, for the Stable of Sprites you are trying to build

Can only have 1 base stat at 6 at chargen so a player can get CHA *OR* WIL at 6 starting off. Also, Elves does well in the Sprite-mastermind role with their +2 CHA. It sounds unnecessary but when you consider how many types of sprites there are its nice to get 1 of each type and still be able to get an extra fault sprite and machine sprite or 3.

I think that's just skills, not attributes.
Fortune
QUOTE (Buster @ Oct 8 2007, 01:22 AM)
I think that's just skills, not attributes.

QUOTE (SR4 pg. 73)
Improving a character’s Physical or Mental attributes costs 10 Build Points to increase an attribute by +1. The final increase spent to raise an attribute to its natural maximum (known as “maxing out?) costs 25 BP instead of the normal 10. Players may not spend more than half their total BP on Physical and Mental attributes (for a standard 400 BP character, this means a cap of 200 BP). Also, characters cannot have more than one attribute at their natural maximum. This measure prevents overspending in attributes and ensures that characters are well rounded.
Buster
Here's a "minimalist" technomancer I built that does little more than conjure sprites and has no skills other than Compiling, Registering, and Software (Threading spec). All others skills are provided by skillwires and/or sprites. I was able to buy the maximum number of complex forms (Logic * 2). But with no BP in physical attributes, he better live inside an autodoc.

He gets 6 res + 7 registering (aptitude) + 2 codeslinger + 2 spec = 17 dice + 7 edge to Register a courier sprite. You might be better off swapping Compiling for Registering.

He has 3 BP left over for more gear (like an autodoc or more skillsofts) or a contact (like a street doc).

Build point summary:
0 Physical Attributes
120 Mental Attributes
140 Special Attributes
66 Active Skills
25 Positive Qualities
-35 Negative Qualities
60 Learn 10*6 Complex Forms
21 Cyberware + Gear (105,000 ¥)
0 Contacts
=397 Total
3 BP left over for more gear or a contact

Detailed Build:
METATYPE: Human (0 BP)
PHYSICAL ATTRIBUTES (0 BP)
Name Score Cost
Bod: 1 0
Agil: 1 0
Reac: 1 0
Str: 1 0

MENTAL ATTRIBUTES (120 BP)
Name Score Cost
Cha: 5 40
Int: 5 40
Log: 5 (7) 40
Will: 5 40

SPECIAL ATTRIBUTES (140 BP)
Name Score Cost
Edge: 7 65
Res: 6 75 (bought back 1 res from essence loss)
Ess: 5.10

ACTIVE SKILLS (66 BP)
Skill Rating Cost
Registering 7 (9 Codeslinger) (Courier 11) 30
Compiling 4 (Courier 6) 18
Software 4 (Threading 6) 18

POSITIVE QUALITIES (25 BP)
Technomancer 5
Codeslinger(Registering) 10 +2 to Registering tasks
Aptitude (Registering) 10 +1 max Registering skill

NEGATIVE QUALITIES (-35 BP)
(whatever)

COMPLEX FORMS (10*6 = 60 BP)
(10 at rating 6)

CYBERWEAR + GEAR (105,000 nuyen, 21 BP)

CYBERWARE (Cost = 101,000 ¥)
Cost Essence Name Rating
20000 (0.4) Cerebral Booster 2
6000 0.6 Skillwires 3
3000 0.1 Skillwires Expert System
= 29,000

9000 ActiveSoft: Computer 3
9000 ActiveSoft: Data Search 3
9000 ActiveSoft: Hardware 3
9000 ActiveSoft: Cybercombat 3
9000 ActiveSoft: Electronic Warfare 3
9000 ActiveSoft: Hacking 3
9000 ActiveSoft: First Aid 3
9000 ActiveSoft: Infiltration 3
= 72,000

GEAR (Cost = 4,000 ¥)
(whatever)
Tarantula
Since everyone is throwing out builds, let me whip out one for a sprite based technomancer.

Technomancer
Codeslinger (Compiling)
Attributes:
Bod: 3
Agi: 3
Rea: 3
Cha: 4
Log: 3
Int: 3
Will: 6
Res: 6
Edge: 3
195bp on attributes, 65 on resonance, 10 on edge, 5 for technomancer, 10 for codeslinger
Total so far: 285

Skills:
Compiling 6 (Courier) 26bp
First Aid 4 (Combat Wounds) 18bp
Registering 4 (Machine) 18bp
Dodge 4 (Ranged Combat) 18bp
Aeronautics Mechanic 3 12bp
Infiltration 3 (Vehicle) 14bp

Gear: 9BP = 45k
Armor Vest
Meta Link W/Vector Xim
Medkit 6
Whatever drones/weapons you feel like, hes got plenty of money, or you could for some more skills instead...

As far as his compiling ability, he has a dicepool of 16 for courier sprites, and 14 for any other sprite. This means he can fairly reliably whip out rating 7 courier sprites on the spot, as well as being able to get up to a rating 11 machine sprite via edge (like during downtime to register them as well).

As far as usefulness on a team, he can first aid very effectively (even better with a machine sprite). Also, it never is said that sprites expend a task every sunrise/sunset for registered sprites performing one thing (diagnostics on a medkit for example) so our rules lawyer could argue that he only needs to still have 1 service left on the sprite to keep him around indefinately diagnosing the medkit.

As far as the "Bottom line - If I were playing in this game and I met this guy interviewing to be on my runner team, he wouldn't make it in the door. If I was running the game, I'd do the actual rolls for the Fading (instead of just averaging successes per 4 die pool) just for that one random time that the Sprite gets 12+ hits on 24 dice and kills the TM outright. Heck, with a low body, he'd die outright from overflow before he ever got to tell his sprite to help him w/the kit. Death by Powergaming." thats what burning edge is for.

WearzManySkinz, the part you bolded, "Medicine skill may help speed the healing process." is true. Yes, the medicine skill helps the healing process, which is a seperate test, and takes HOURS for stun, and and DAYS for physical damage. First Aid takes combat turns. Thats a HUGE difference in time required. So as I've said all along, yes, your medicine speciality helps when making medicine rolls to aid normal healing tests. It doesn't not apply to first aid rolls used to heal damage on the spot.
gknoy
Okay, disregarding whether a character can register a force N sprite, and/or how to juggle the damage from such an action, I'd like to go back to some of the more fundamental questions. Perhaps this is because my reading of the book was spotty (I think I was in a sleep deprived rush? wink.gif), but i see several assertions and I'm not sure I understand the basics.

QUOTE (Eurotroll)
the real power of TMs lies in Sprites, considering that they are rather more fragile than Hackers.


I think I understand the motivation -- the less the TM is doing themself, the less personal risk, right? But ... how does that translate into gameplay?

Can you give sprites skills that you don't already have? (Gunnery, piloting, etc, especially)

QUOTE
... you're going to be stunning yourself a lot

How much is a lot? I've never played a Drain-based character, so maybe this is a pretty dumb question. Are you pretty much always playing at steadily increasing TN's due to the penalties? Are you basically a stim-patch addict? How many do you end up using in an average run?

QUOTE (Arashi)
My advice for the prospective TM player would be more along the lines of taking 5's for mental stats and general Living Persona Tough , putting the Influence Group in there at 2-3 along with Cracking and Electronics Groups at 4 and making him a Hacker/Face - since Charisma is good for Technomancers anyway, they make good faces.

Why do they make good faces?
Tarantula
Because CHA limits how many sprites you can have registered, so having a high charisma, is half the way there to being a good face.
Wasabi
And since there are 5 or 6-ish types of Sprites with different skills, powers, etc., you get additional options for employing sprites as you gain Charisma.

Past getting 1 of each you start getting multiples and in the case of drone-using Machine Sprites with rating 6 Autosofts thats just a beautiful thing!
Tarantula
More like rating 8 Wasabi.
Arashi
<<More like rating 8 Wasabi.>>

Give me the rating 6's anyday, I can rest off the stun, and be back up next morning - no time off, no wounds, etc.

What starting char would want to soak that registering Fading? 16 dice averages 5 hits = 10P-ish boxes of fading, resisted by starting char's 6 Resonance / 5 Willpower (3-4 hits = 6-7 remaning boxes of rest-heal only fading).

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, because unless a group has a uber-medic on staff (starting 6-7 skill instead of other skill higher than 4), we are talking about having to rest off damage *every time* a starting-level Technomancer does this. And that is IF the medic gets lucky: probably 4 skill, and probably not specialized in "fading stress", +5 logic, +6 medkit, -2 technomancer, -1 indoors no med facility = 12 dice = 4 hits -2Thresh = 2 boxes healed.. ugh. ok give ya a couple more for the rating 6 sprite on call with Diagnostics, but still physically wounded every time)

I know, I know... that IF you had a TM maxed to resist fading and blowing Edge every time, and IF you had another player dedicated to healing you up every time you put yourself down, and IF... blah blah blah. Just seems like you are asking a lot of a group just to play your character.

More likely scenario? Technomancer is still "closeted" because of the worldwide Witch Hunt for Technomancers (re: Emergence), probably ape-ing his abilities as a hacker through a cheesy commlink and trying not to be "too" good and make people think they are more than just a garden variety hacker. The TM looks for a group that they can work with, checking out their prejudice level (if any) and seeing if they have to stay hidden or "come out".

Now we are talking *gameplay* and why your TM should have some skills instead of being a sprite-monster. A rating 6 sprite is fearsome enough, I would hope any good GM running a moderately powered game would weed those thoughts of powergaming out... or...

"If you can't change your people, change your people."

I think someone else mentioned that TMs are like mages, a bit slow at the start, but build up with karma. I agree with this notion, though I also support the reorganization of TM builds along the lines of mages - i.e. CFs being like Spells = only 3 BP each, or 5 karma later. CF Rating = Resonance. This lets a TM start out with about 30 more BP for skills/etc (as they would have usually tried to invest 60BP to get max forms for later anyway). I hope that is a rules-tweaking option presented in Unwired, or something like it.
Wasabi
Tarantula, not everyone will know how to make the most heinous TM or want to for that matter. Sure, 8's are better than 6's but my point is that 6's are still beautiful.
Raij
Hi guys,

very new to technomancers and I have a quick question.

why do technomancers not need ECCM? Are they not susceptible to jamming?

thanks
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