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mfb
QUOTE (CyberKender)
It's really cool that you can access the 'Internet' from virtually anywhere, but if you think I'm going to connect the computers in my company that contain financial records/monetary transactions/personnel records to it, without a bottleneck and a huge firewall, you're insane!

many groups go one step further: they don't connect to the outside Matrix at all, walling off their intranet with signal-blocking materials. not everything is connected to the Matrix.
Orient
Oh. I'm blind.

SR4, page 223 - "Network Security"
Raij
Regarding the problem with a logic 1 dope running a hacking program just as well as a logic 10 genius, I like the idea of disallowing a PC to use a program at a rating higher than his logic.

Sure you can give a monkey a screwdriver.. he might even poke something with it. But is he really gonna figure out how to unscrew a screw?

Another example, I have a friend who can produce art just as well if not better in paint (rating 1) than photoshop (rating 5). It's obviously not because paint is more powerful, but because it's easier to use and understand for him, considering he doesn't have a lot of strength in understanding PC programs. (he's not traditionally a digital artist) Photoshop employs a lot of concepts he finds difficult to get his head around, similar to an Exploit 6 program in the hands of a Logic 1 character.
Emperor Tippy
I have a house rule that I'm going to implement next time I GM a new campaign.

Matrix tests are exactly like in the book: Skill+Program, no cap

You can code custom programs with a rating above 6. The ratings above 6 represent highly specialized and tailored programs that you have coded to work specifically with how you do X operation (edit, encrypt, etc.). If someone besides you uses the program it's rating is the inverse:
Rating 7 = rating 6
Rating 8 = Rating 5
Rating 9 = Rating 4
Rating 10 = Rating 3
Rating 11 = Rating 2
Rating 12 = Rating 1

You can also make custom agents with similar ratings but they are likewise highly specialized. The Rating 10 IC could be given an edit program and told to edit a file but it would act as a rating 3 agent for the test (and all other tasks that it wasn't specialized for).

Response Chips can likewise be created with a higher than normal rating. This represents numerous little tweaks and slight modifications that are to expensive and time intensive to use in production runs but can be made by someone skilled enough.

You can create a program or Response chip with a rating equal to Skillx2 (meaning that rating is capped at 12 without positive qualities).

--------------
An Agent hacker is still better than most people and everyone on the team should have one in his comlink to handle regular stuff (spoofing the cyber scanner or the like) but the real elite hackers, like FastJack, can hack circles around the agent. FastJack is rolling 18-20 dice on every hacking test while the agent is rolling at most 12.

And what about custom agent's with a rating of 12 and running rating 12 programs? Well that's not possible, they are limited to rating 6 programs because they can't code their own custom programs. So that spoofing agent custom made to connect into a security camera network and edit out the team in real without being detected is a rating 12 agent with a rating 6 Stealth and rating 6 Edit program.

But if you want it to forge orders or change a password on a door your out of luck, the agent can't do it.

/sorry for rambling.
kzt
QUOTE (Raij)
similar to an Exploit 6 program in the hands of a Logic 1 character.

Programs in SR are automated. You point it at the target and go. That's why it takes about no time to do anything. And why we call them script kiddies. The user doesn't need to know anything, the guy who wrote the program did all the hard stuff.
Raij
QUOTE (kzt)
QUOTE (Raij @ Oct 11 2007, 04:09 PM)
similar to an Exploit 6 program in the hands of a Logic 1 character.

Programs in SR are automated. You point it at the target and go. That's why it takes about no time to do anything. And why we call them script kiddies. The user doesn't need to know anything, the guy who wrote the program did all the hard stuff.

I understand that's the way it is, I'm only suggesting that if you wanted to require more user-interaction from your programs you could cap with logic.
Narse
I have a suggestion. Make rolls Logic (or intuition) + Skill + 1/2 program. This way programs act more as an aid to tests (similar to smartlinks and vehicle handeling). This seems more like a workable system to me.

Though I do have to point out: SR4 matrix rules aren't that far fetched. Script kiddies exist. Heck, I'd even go so far as to say most 'hacking' today is done by them. Look at a program like Kismet (a RL equivalent of sniffer among others). It does almost all the work for you. All you need to do is know how to use the program. For example: it lists the different types of attacks in a drop-down menu. You just click and walk away. This is RL people. Of course there are some people out there who do understand code and can examine it to pinpoint its weaknesses, but generally they have an EXTREMELY detailed and advanced level of knowledge and are in fact the people who are writing the software to hack or defend from hacking attempts.

just my 2 nuyen.gif
CyberKender
QUOTE (Eurotroll)
But isn't that exactly how the Matrix is described? And also, come to think of it, why on-site hacking is so often necessary in a variety of runs?

My problem with Logic+Skill capped by Program has always been that, hypothetically, were FastJack to be cornered into using a crap Rating 1 program with no other help available, he'd be pretty much data-toast (for an assumed Logic 7 + Hacking 7+2 to be capped to 1 hit is... ouch!). For Skill+Program capped by Logic, that wouldn't necessarily be the case -- but it's an eyesore to have one rather central aspect of SR gaming to break the ATT+SKI mold.

*sigh* I still haven't decided what do implement in my game. I suppose I'll let my TM player go wild for a session and see how things develop.

No, it's how the Matrix is described in 1st/2nd/3rd Ed. The Great Crash threw all that out and when the rebuilt it, the way I describe *up until* the part about not connecting vital system to it. And yes, that does lead to needing to do on-site hacking. But then, so did the older versions. That part is a good thing, imho. I do like that 4th Ed. fixed the problem of Deckers being in, essentially, a separate game from the rest of the party.

Not really. FastJack will just hack on the fly, and write a rating 6 program from scratch. ;>
I see your point, but it would be pretty much the same as in 1st/2nd/3rd when Fastjack is caught without his deck. Or the rigger when he doesn't have drones/vehicles and the street samurai when you take away his weapons. You're taking away his tools, so he should be hampered by that.
Orient
Actually, I sorta assumed that Fastjack doesn't even need to spoof IDs anymore. He just tells systems who he is, and they bare their secrets in fear. wink.gif
kzt
QUOTE (Narse)
Of course there are some people out there who do understand code and can examine it to pinpoint its weaknesses, but generally they have an EXTREMELY detailed and advanced level of knowledge and are in fact the people who are writing the software to hack or defend from hacking attempts.

just my 2 nuyen.gif

That's who hackers in SR should be.
CyberKender
QUOTE (mfb)
many groups go one step further: they don't connect to the outside Matrix at all, walling off their intranet with signal-blocking materials. not everything is connected to the Matrix.

Of course, but some highly sensitive systems need to be connected. Otherwise, how would you pay for that burger'n'fries, when the bank won't let the Stuffer Shack connect to it's systems to verify that you have credits to pay for it? [Insert name of a megacorp]'s secret RnD systems are going to be isolated, but the HR department in Seattle is going to need to connect to the HR department in Japan (or wherever). Those sorts systems will be behind the choke points and firewalls and use good encryption.
CyberKender
QUOTE (Narse)
I have a suggestion. Make rolls Logic (or intuition) + Skill + 1/2 program. This way programs act more as an aid to tests (similar to smartlinks and vehicle handeling). This seems more like a workable system to me.

Though I do have to point out: SR4 matrix rules aren't that far fetched. Script kiddies exist. Heck, I'd even go so far as to say most 'hacking' today is done by them. Look at a program like Kismet (a RL equivalent of sniffer among others). It does almost all the work for you. All you need to do is know how to use the program. For example: it lists the different types of attacks in a drop-down menu. You just click and walk away. This is RL people. Of course there are some people out there who do understand code and can examine it to pinpoint its weaknesses, but generally they have an EXTREMELY detailed and advanced level of knowledge and are in fact the people who are writing the software to hack or defend from hacking attempts.

just my 2 nuyen.gif

I like the thinking, but you're adding dice to the attacker's test. How do you balance that against a node defending against it?

Yes, Script kiddies do exist, and yes, they probably account for more hacking than anyone else. However, the script kiddies aren't the ones hacking into the Pentagon, and they especially aren't the ones that the Pentagon officials believe get in and out without detection. Those are the FastJacks of RL, and no script kiddie can touch them. But, in SR4, they can be just as good as FastJack just by spending enough money.
Yes, Kismet will show you a lot of information, but if you don't know how to use that information, it's not very useful. Kismet's built in choices are useless when you present a situation it's not programed for. It's that line of thinking that makes me rather like Emperor Tippy's suggestion. (Though it doesn't solve my initial complaint.)
mfb
QUOTE (CyberKender)
Of course, but some highly sensitive systems need to be connected. Otherwise, how would you pay for that burger'n'fries, when the bank won't let the Stuffer Shack connect to it's systems to verify that you have credits to pay for it? [Insert name of a megacorp]'s secret RnD systems are going to be isolated, but the HR department in Seattle is going to need to connect to the HR department in Japan (or wherever). Those sorts systems will be behind the choke points and firewalls and use good encryption.

true. but to a large extent, that's always been an issue in SR, regardless of edition. the only real difference in SR4 is that instead of tracing a decker back to a jackpoint, you triangulate a hacker's location.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Orient)
Actually, I sorta assumed that Fastjack doesn't even need to spoof IDs anymore. He just tells systems who he is, and they bare their secrets in fear. wink.gif

...sweet grinbig.gif
Falconer
Firstly, I'm new to SR4. I don't understand the vagaries of the system enough to comment in specifics yet. But to paraphrase my take on people's posts, some are trying to find a way to have the program influenced by the logic and vice versa.

The simplest and least intrusive way to me is as follows;
Average the characters logic w/ the program rating. (Logic + program)/2. A highly gifted hacker then can make good w/ shoddy tools, but given great tools he'll be at his best. Conversely, someone not as gifted but w/ the same tool gets better results but not nearly as good as the tricked out guy.

Advantage: you don't need to redo all the target numbers. The system doesn't need massive overhauls all over the place. Easy to integrate and playtest.

Logic5 guy using rating 5 program averages to 10/2==5 dice, no change
Logic2 sammy using same rating 5 program averages (2+5)/2==3 dice, not quite as good
Logic5 guy using rating 2 program==3 dice, slightly better than par.
I still haven't gotten my head around what cybermods can come into play on the pools yet. But supposedly appropriate headware could give a dedicated decker an even bigger net bonus. And I probably screwed up the rounding (SR4 doesn't consistent round up or down that I've seen yet).

Another way to get a dice pool reasonably the same but tying it less to logic than I'd like is to take the 2/3's average of logic, program, and commlink.

What follows is more of a brainstorm and loose thoughts on how I'd concieve the system operationg.

I'd base actual skills around 'crafting' the programs and/or maintaining them. A 4 year old hacking tool isn't going to be much good to anyone unless it's been actively maintained and upgraded. This could cost some major money to someone who can't do it himself. EG: have the software itself slowly degrade over time, and maybe against top flight defenses incur a cumulative penalty for overusing the same 'ware' multiple times as the defenses heuristics learn it. (trying to bypass a hardened router to a secured domain as opposed to a baseline commlink)
EG: rating 5 software rolls 5 dice every month w/o maintenance. It degrades a number of hits equal to successes. Maintenance stops, and net hits if done right even could improve it. (I'd say capped up to the logic of the decker).

Depending on how much maintenance is important vs. actual hacking, you might make the attribute splitup more meaningfull. Intuition is for on the fly judgement and usage, while logic dictates how good and well prepared your programs are. This has the downside that say a sammy or similar is more likely to have more int than logic though to pump his initiative. After buying up to date software he's not going to be much different than a top flight cracker. But this makes it easier for teams w/o a dedicated decker to 'buy' their way out of the problem (outside of hiring an NPC w/ all the strings that introduces). Similarly, programs themselves might be something akin to BTL they burn out after usage (or degrade per use like above, meaning overuse of the best stuff will cost you in terms of availability waits and recurrent costs).

Even in todays environment, the cracker doesn't make the exploit in real time typing like a maniac, he programs/scripts something then runs it. The skill is in the quality of the software tool he's made and knowing which to use when and how.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Spike)
And guys like Frank who know computers better than I do (anyone here? Probably...) would still bitch that it didn't match up to how 'computers work' worth a damn. Encryption would still suck. And the book would still say exactly what it does now.


What? You wound me sir. I don't give a damn about whether SR computers mach up to the way I think computers will work in 2071. I care only that they work in a manner such that it generates Shadowrun stories. And in Shadowrun, you hack into a system by dragging along a Matrix Specialist - not by renting a stack of commlinks running variations of Agent Smith Armada. A server is cracked by a brilliant techno-anarchist computer savant, not by the street samurai's girlfriend selecting "Yes" after the "Do you want to crack the Renraku Server?" prompt.

As mfb pointed out, the rules in the basic bok are really vague. We've had flame wars that are hundreds of posts long trying to hash out what they mean. And so long as noone knows what it means, "proving" it to be broken proves difficult. But what it probably means, is that you can sic an arbitrarily large army of Agents onto any problem ever and sove it in literally a single round.

And Unwired is going to "fix" that. It's going to put some good hard limits on this problem and it's going to clear up the vagueness and make it explicit exactly what's going down. Uh oh.

Yes, the hard limits are cash based. So having an arbitrarily large ple of money does in fact still give you an arbitrarily large pile of Agents. And Agents have a chance of wandering off and not doing what you want unless there's someone to select "Yes" after the "Do you want to crash this IC?" prompt. But there's no reason for the person operating those click-through menus to have any Matrix skill or to even have a datajack. It could seriously just be your niece Penelope. With a retransmitter, she doesn't even have to be there.

Basically by clearing up ambiguity and putting in specific limits they are actually pulling back the curtain to reveal exactly how meaningless and vestigial the Decker actually is in the SR4 system. And that sucks. I want no part of it.

What I'm actually doing is going back to square one and building myself a new set of Matrix rules that aren't a hack on the current ones. They aren't "Roll X+Z while performing action A on page 223" - they are just different altogether. Based much much more on the Magic system. Core conceits:
  • Having a Matrix Specialist is valuable, and that specialist is a playable character.
  • Agents cannot attack other systems at all (which means: no Agent Smith Army).
  • Connecting your brain to computers makes you more resistant to Matrix attack than leaving your brain unconnected (yes, really).
  • The system should be easy enough to use that it can be played while drunk.

It's not done yet. It's a lot of work in the balance stages and the sky is literally the limit as far as what could potentially be done. It requires a whole new set of fluff and mechanics. The ones in the SR4 main book inevitably lead to contradictions which marginalize player characters out of existence. So here's an excerpt:

----
The Meat in the Machine: Power for Precision
"Can I run some of these on your sister? She's like a little porcelain doll."

How powerful are the computers in Shadowrun? Very powerful. But exactly how powerful has never really been explained. And honestly, it shouldn't be. Computing is very fast, very accurate, and very awesome. But for whatever reason, human brains are still employed as an important adjunct. This is itself not particularly surprising. The human brain is in total capable of over 100 trillion computer instructions every second. That's an amount which is, quite frankly, ridiculous. It's a very, very large amount of processor power, and although a tremendous amount of it is being "wasted" in subconscious thought about whether you'd enjoy a Blue Donut™ or whatever, it still has more total processing power than any device in Shadowrun. Computers aren't really ever more powerful than a human brain, they are more dedicated and more precise. A computer can get the same answer to a question over and over again without ever being wrong (or creative) and that right there is its strength and its weakness.

In Shadowrun history the Cyberterminal was created in 2029 and that no existing computer system could possibly stand against someone using one. This isn't because the cyberterminal was a revolutionarily faster and more powerful computer capable of crushing other computers with its virtual biceps (though it was), it's because the cyberterminal was cybernetic – it literally plugged into the brain of the user. And it crushed other computers not because thinking instructions is so much faster than typing them (though it is), but because a cyberterminal actually uses part of the human's brain in its computer operations. That alone gives it a processing reserve that is well over one hundred thousand times what a super computer was capable of when Shadowrun was first written.

Shadowrun progressed through the existence of the cyberterminal to the cyberdeck: a portable computer which was nonetheless able to utilize the powers of the human brain. It was the standard in 2050 and for the next 15 years it remained on the cutting edge for Hackers. And that's where the history gets confusing. Because it's entirely possible that at some point the people in Shadowrun managed to create something portable that was in fact more powerful than a human brain. And at that point, the human really is just a vestigial appendage whose purpose is to press the Go button. But while that's admirably dystopic and fits into the overall cyberpunk genre fairly well, the game still centers on the player characters – who are still "just" individual humans. The moment they become obsolete, the game is over. Not just your particular campaign, but indeed the entire game of Shadowrun. So we're constrained to believe that in fact the human element is still vital to the operation of high end computing. That's fine, there can be many revolutions in computing power without actually pushing the one hundred trillion computer instructions per second threshold.

So when we get to the Commlink, the one thing we know didn't happen is that the Commlink did not replace the need for it to be connected to a serious metahuman brain in order to orchestrate enough processing power together to do real cybercombat. We know this did not happen because we are still playing the game.
    Equipment Spotlight: The Math Subprocessor
    Many people have asked why one would bother with a math subprocessor as a cybernetic enhancement. After all, a handheld calculator has a stupidly fast and accurate look-up table for approximating trigonometric functions and you can jolly well just hook such a function up to your datajack and get the answers to any reasonable "math" question in less time than it takes to ask it.
    The answer is that a Math Subprocessor is not a calculator that feeds you answers. It's more like a nerve staple that forces part of your brain to perform mathematical analysis on demand. That's why it applies to things like signal jamming, it literally turns part of your brain into an incredibly powerful bio-computer slaved to the tasks you designate for it. In some ways it actually makes you less intelligent: you are seriously using less of your brain on a moment to moment basis. But when the chips are down and you need to extrapolate a wave function or predict the results of a three-body problem, the Math Subprocessor is your friend.

----

-Frank
Nychuus
You guys are forgetting the good programmer's 3 main attributes:
Laziness - A good programmer is always lazy, if the computer can do the heavy lifting computing, he'll let the computer do it. A lot of websites nowadays are made with dreamweaver or whatever and not with notepad. nyahnyah.gif

Impatience - If the computer can do it faster, he'd let the computer do it. Which is why I'm making my character generator. I don't want to do all the math and referencing into each book all the time I have to make a character!

and

Hubris - Good programmers will tell you why they rule and everyone else sucks. (But this really doesn't apply here)

sleepy.gif
deek
I'm coming into this discussion late, but I wanted to confirm that our group has been using the Skill + Attribute limited by Rating for about a year and a half without any problems. As several has mentioned, it pretty much mirrors the magic rules, with the exception that you can't choose the "Force" yourself.

Now, I have tossed around a house-rule to introduce dynamic programs, that do allow you to choose the program rating as you use it...again mirroring the magic rules, dynamic programs would give a certain level of "dumpshock" every time you use them. Obviously, below your logic would be stun and above physical...

Just something that I have tossed around.

Our hacker has all his programs at the same rating, so there isn't much "thinking" when he rolls. He has his logic and his skill, and its all capped by the rating (which is all the same), so its only a matter of which programs he has loaded, which is really only a problem when the node or IC is doing something against him.
Cheops
Those are actually pretty good ideas Deek.

One of the things I've noticed about SR4, other than the amount of leeway that GMs have in running the game the way they want, is that unless you have Magic or Resonance there are no real specialists anymore. Anyone can do anything (that's not governed by Magic or Resonance) that they want.

Personally I like that. I like being able to make a Hacker who's also really good at combat. I like that my Street Sam now has several "electronic buddies" helping him out. I like how easy it is to play a Rigger/Hacker now.

In my group we have several fluff aspects that determine what type of specialist you are:

Wired Reflexes and dice pools of 8+ to use your weapons = Street Sam
Control Rig = Rigger
Knowledge skills related to the Matrix and 8+ dice pool for all Matrix actions = Hacker

Another thing to keep in mind: THE MATRIX IS ENTIRELY VISUAL

this is straight from the fluff in SR1-3. Literacy is declining because no one needs to read anymore. You don't need to be smart to use the Matrix you just need to know what all the pretty metaphors mean. That doesn't require a high Logic, it just requires a lot of training. And someone with Skill 3 is a Professional Computer user and therefore should be VERY good at most Matrix actions REGARDLESS of Logic.

I'd argue that a Script Kiddie in SR4 is probably some mook with 2 or 3 of the Matrix skills at Rating 1 and backed up by good programs. A Hacker has all 7 skills at rating 2+ at least. Sure the script kiddie can make up for this with Agents but the Hacker will run roughshod over the Kiddie. All it takes to subvert those Agents is a Matrix Perception test + a Hacking + Spoof test.

Of course, I'm working under the assumption that Script Kiddies are Professional Rating 1 or 2 whereas a Hacker will be Professional Rating 3+ but that's all a matter of how you run your games.

Which all goes back to the Elasticity (as I think mfb called it) of the SR4 rules.
Blade
I guess a big difference between a hacker and a script kiddie would be the way they act:

a logic 1 script kiddie will rush towards that nice "PAYDATA TOP SECRET" file while a real hacker will tag it as a honeypot right away.
a logic 1 script kiddie won't necessarily think about erasing his datatrail everywhere, will brag about what he did on public forums...

About agents, I consider that there are more or less two main types of commercial agents:
- IC : to protect your commlink
- Personal Assistant : to run errands on the Matrix

Commercial agents aren't meant for hacking. Hacking agents are totally different agents with their own way to act and react.
But even if hacking agents can do 'routine' tasks such as hacking a node, attacking, tracking and so on, they might fall for traps designed for them. If your hacking agent isn't up to date chances are that your target node is already patched (if it's a secure node)...
Spike
Frank: I apologize if I mistook you for one of the 'thats not how it really works in really real life' crowd. My point remains the same, regardless.

I recall from the Blackhammer your Mom thread your rational for the 'plugging in makes you more resistant' comment. And I still disagree on such a fundamental level it is hard to put into words. This makes two major subcomponents of Shadowrun where I've had to say 'If FrankTrollman takes over as lead developer on Shadowrun at some point I will have to become one of those grognards that refuse to upgrade'. We seem to have deep seated philosophical differences that put as at polar opposites.

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
What I'm actually doing is going back to square one and building myself a new set of Matrix rules that aren't a hack on the current ones. They aren't "Roll X+Z while performing action A on page 223" - they are just different altogether. Based much much more on the Magic system. Core conceits


the Bolded part concerns me. Everything in the game, even magic, even hacking consist of rolling X+Z while performing A. I agree hacking could be arguably 'Z+Pi' or something... but that is a semantic arguement.

Other than that I see nothing wrong with a quick hack, such as 'mine', that does, in fact, eliminate the Agent Smith problem and the 'no need for hackers' problems that you have, while still allowing players to use the black book to make their characters and understand the fundamentals of the game.
Kerris
QUOTE (Falconer)
Firstly, I'm new to SR4. I don't understand the vagaries of the system enough to comment in specifics yet. But to paraphrase my take on people's posts, some are trying to find a way to have the program influenced by the logic and vice versa.

The simplest and least intrusive way to me is as follows;
Average the characters logic w/ the program rating. (Logic + program)/2. A highly gifted hacker then can make good w/ shoddy tools, but given great tools he'll be at his best. Conversely, someone not as gifted but w/ the same tool gets better results but not nearly as good as the tricked out guy.

Advantage: you don't need to redo all the target numbers. The system doesn't need massive overhauls all over the place. Easy to integrate and playtest.

Logic5 guy using rating 5 program averages to 10/2==5 dice, no change
Logic2 sammy using same rating 5 program averages (2+5)/2==3 dice, not quite as good
Logic5 guy using rating 2 program==3 dice, slightly better than par.
I still haven't gotten my head around what cybermods can come into play on the pools yet. But supposedly appropriate headware could give a dedicated decker an even bigger net bonus. And I probably screwed up the rounding (SR4 doesn't consistent round up or down that I've seen yet).

Another way to get a dice pool reasonably the same but tying it less to logic than I'd like is to take the 2/3's average of logic, program, and commlink.

I really like this house rule, but what happens with Agents and IC? Do we use their rating as Logic, Skill, and Program, or do we assume they have no Logic (or Logic 0), and thus use half Rating + Rating/2?

Player: Hacking + (Skill + Program)/2
Agent: Rating + Rating/2

I think this is the way to go. Especially since once there is an Agent directly opposing the player, there will likely be a +4 Firewall bonus in effect.

Just thinking about bonuses and penalties and such: If, once a system is alerted, it were to change its metaphor every IP (or turn, or whatever), that would likely be very disorienting to an intruder. Do you think it's a valid countermeasure (perhaps only for the odd, off-the-wall system)?
Orient
Um. Half rating + rating/2 = rating.

Agents have their own independent Firewall rating, which is not dependent on the Firewall rating of the node they're in. The +4 Firewall applies to tests made by hackers to crash the node's OS, etc.

Assuming that Agents use their equivalent of Skill + (Attribute + program)/2, we either get:

Rating x 1.5 + Program x .5 (assuming Attribute = rating)
...which would make them on par with their hacker equivalents...

or
Rating + Program x .5 (assuming Attribute = 0)
..which downgrades their power a bit. This may or may not be good, depending on GM preference.

Rating + Program will give roughly the same dice pool as the first option, and makes calculating pools for those things both easier, and roughly on par with their metahuman equivalents.

Neither one of these options makes Agents/IC unbeatable, since a good hacker will have boosted his Logic to pretty high levels, will have the +2 bonus from Hot Sim, and all that good stuff.

PS. What the hell does this emoticon mean? --> twirl.gif
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
the Bolded part concerns me. Everything in the game, even magic, even hacking consist of rolling X+Z while performing A.


The difference is Page 223. I am not using it any more. At all.

The dicepool is Logic + Hacking, but the operations are not based on the operations in the basic book. The basic book's system is rotten at the core. Changing the dicepools slightly doesn't address the core issues, it doesn't make it work.

In Shadowrun you sneak into the enemy base, you log into the system, the system has an automated defense system that attempts to fry your brain. Your brain gets a little fried, you make off with the paydata, you run off into the suset, and the cheese stands alone. The following things do not happen:
  • You sneak into the enemy base but there's fuck-all you can do about the computer system because it's encrypted in some sort of crazy 10,000 bit encryption schema that will take years or decades to decrypt into something usable.
  • You sneak into the enemy base but there's fuck-all you can do about the computer system because they don't even have an internet connection because it's a fucing secret base!
  • You log into the system and then are instantly vaporized because the system has 12 slave nodes which are all running various automated defense systems that all log onto the host node together and gang rape you in your rape holes in a single round.
  • You log onto the system and then are never in any danger of having your brain fried because you weren't a fucking idiot and set "brain damage" to "no" on your preferences before you even turned your machine on.
  • You don't even bother logging into the system, because you have a stack of commlinks all running various cool Agent Programs which can jolly well hack the system for you while you use the Matrix for what's really important: Bareback Mountain 5.


And you know what? All of that bullshit is hard coded into the SR4 Matrix rules. Granted, you can have all of that not happen by mutual agreement between the GM and the players. But fuck that! I want the rules to actually generate the kinds of stories I want with everyone playing to the best of their ability. Reall cat-and-mouse stuff. Not magical teaparty crap where we all take a step back from good tactics and then decide who wins by popularity contest.

QUOTE
This makes two major subcomponents of Shadowrun where I've had to say 'If FrankTrollman takes over as lead developer on Shadowrun at some point I will have to become one of those grognards that refuse to upgrade'. We seem to have deep seated philosophical differences that put as at polar opposites.


Since you're so very fond of misconstruing my arguments, I genuinely have no idea if that's true or not. But I can say that you needn't fear. I will never write any more Shadowrun products.

-Frank
Adarael
As to the Math SPU...
Who would want it?

Anyone who wants free dice on their EW tests, that's for sure.
In other words: sign me the hell up.

The poor MSPU is oft-maligned, oft-overlooked, and totally awesome.
kzt
If I can't have rules for SR hacking that doesn't kowtow to TRON I'd at least like rules that had internal coherence and logic. So far Franks seems to at least be making an attempt at putting together coherent and logical rules. smile.gif
Orient
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Oct 12 2007, 12:48 PM)
And you know what? All of that bullshit is hard coded into the SR4 Matrix rules. Granted, you can have all of that not happen by mutual agreement between the GM and the players. But fuck that! I want the rules to actually generate the kinds of stories I want with everyone playing to the best of their ability. Reall cat-and-mouse stuff. Not magical teaparty crap where we all take a step back from good tactics and then decide who wins by popularity contest.

There has to be a middle ground, though. I mean, a GM could very easily (and very plausibly) just off characters by having enemies hire vaguely intelligent guys with sniper rifles. Now, I'm all for throwing tons of complicated, think-or-die type stuff at players, and see what sorts of methods for dealing with it they come up with, but some thing as simple as "Fail a one-in-a-million Perception test, then roll body (no armor) versus sniper rifle damage" doesn't really make for a fun game. Realistic? Yes. More cost effective than sending a SWAT-style anti-runner team (wearing cyberninja outfits, obviously) to engage the runners in a tactically challenging firefight? Yes. Is the cheap-but-intelligent sniper hardwired into the SR4 rules? Yes.

Should it be a popularity contest? Hell no. "Jimmy's a cool guy - I'm not going to send his decker up against anything hard" is bullshit - obviously. I've avoided tons of games that were 'magical teaparties' - hell, that's one of the primary reasons I tend to hate gamers (off topic, here). But avoiding the above sniper scenario doesn't automatically kick the game into the 'magical teaparty' zone.

Edit: This post sounds a bit more combative than I meant it to..
Cheops
QUOTE
FAQ

Are programs optional?  It says to use Computer or Hacking skill + Logic when "interacting with a device," (edit: this includes Frank's reference to p 223) but to use Computer or Hacking skill + program when using a program.  So can I just use Logic, or is computer use/hacking impossible without programs?

In most circumstances, you will be using Computer/Hacking+program rating.  In cases where a program would apply, but isn't available, the character must default.

Logic is used when you are utilizing a device within its standard parameters (Computer) or trying to bypass those parameters through the device's own OS (Hacking).  For example, let's say your character finds an unfamiliar electronic device in a research lab.  Computer + Logic would be used to identify the device, figure out what it is, and figure out how to turn it on.  Let's say that device happened to be a new holoprojector prototype.  Computer+Logic would also be used to determine what features it has and how to use them.  If the character wanted to bypass the controls that prevent the projector from playing pirated movies, porn, or media feeds from unapproved Matrix nodes, he would use Hacking+Logic.  If he wanted to take it apart and see how it worked, he would use Hardware+Logic.  If he wanted to edit a holo media file, analyze the device's Firewall, or search its usage log, he would use a program (Edit, Analyze, and Browse, respectively).


Seems to clarify the problem with the rule on page 223 pretty clearly. Although this actually brings up an interesenting possibility that it is Hacking + Logic to change Admin accounts since they are more a function of System (the root programming of the OS) as opposed to a byproduct of System.

QUOTE
BBB 227

Agets have a Pilot attribute just like drones (see Pilot Programs, p 213) that determines just how "smart" the agent is.  Pilot acts as the agent's brain, interpreting orders.


QUOTE
BBB 214

A gamemaster may also make a Pilot+Response test as a "common sense" test whenever the drone or agents has to make a decision.


Agents certainly don't automatically do what you say. The more complex the action the harder it is for them to carry out and their independent judgement will likely not be as good as a Character's. Telling an Agent to hack a system doesn't mean that it will also get you Admin access, not cause a security alert, edit the security logs and prevent it from being tracked back to you.

At best an Agent attack should be a brute force, last ditch effort to get what you want. That's probably what separates the true Hackers/Spiders from Script Kiddies. A Script Kiddie uses brute force and leaves a Data Trail a mile wide. The true professional gets in and out without leaving any trace of being there.
JBlades
You could limit skill rating to linked attribute (maybe +1). So Hacking skill would be limited by Logic, and hence Logic would be integral to how good a hacker you could be. No dice pool/threshold changes necessary. This would also slow munchkin progression in other areas if you applied it to the whole game, and be a bit more solid justification for why things like a Math SPU would make you a better hacker (besides just doing math gooder). Just an idea off the top of my head that I figured I'd throw out there.
CyberKender
QUOTE (deek)
I'm coming into this discussion late, but I wanted to confirm that our group has been using the Skill + Attribute limited by Rating for about a year and a half without any problems. As several has mentioned, it pretty much mirrors the magic rules, with the exception that you can't choose the "Force" yourself.

Now, I have tossed around a house-rule to introduce dynamic programs, that do allow you to choose the program rating as you use it...again mirroring the magic rules, dynamic programs would give a certain level of "dumpshock" every time you use them. Obviously, below your logic would be stun and above physical...

Just something that I have tossed around.

Our hacker has all his programs at the same rating, so there isn't much "thinking" when he rolls. He has his logic and his skill, and its all capped by the rating (which is all the same), so its only a matter of which programs he has loaded, which is really only a problem when the node or IC is doing something against him.

What an interesting idea, Deek! That leads me to a variation on the idea: If you run a program with a rating higher than your Hacking, (or your Logic), it give you 'dumpshock'/feedback/drain that you have to resist with your Willpower + Logic. One box for each point of rating over. So, that script kiddie with a Hacking of 2 runs a Rating 6 program, he has to resist 4 boxes of stun damage, due to 'feedback overload', with his Will of 3 + Logic of 3. On average he'll take three boxes of stun. But when FastJack uses the same rating 6 program, he doesn't need to roll at all, since it's less than his Hacking of 7. Hmmm...Might have to kick this around with Sterling and even try it out.
Spike
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

Since you're so very fond of misconstruing my arguments, I genuinely have no idea if that's true or not.

-Frank

I have no idea what you mean. If you are accusing me of deliberately misunderstanding you, than you mistake my character horribly. I only do that when it's funny.

I can suggest that perhaps the failure then is on you: You have not explained to me in a way that I can understand. Some bit of your arguement that is blindingly obvious to you, probably so much so that you feel no need to mention it, is utterly lost on me. I can't read your mind, and even if I could, I suspect I'd need LOS to do so.

One of my core issues with your matrix ideas falls under this assumption from you:

Plugging your brain into a computer is inherently safer than NOT plugging your brain into a computer.

I have paraphrased it how I read your statements. From where I sit that violates all logic and common sense. It makes computers work more akin to magic, not science which a) sounds like a luddite position on computing, and b) would seem to violate the core principle in Shadowrun that magic and technology do not mingle, they are not seperate branches of a tree, they are two trees from utterly different forests. It also would seem to violate the idea, also somewhat central to Shadowrun, that Power comes with a price. Want more computer power, risk brain damage. Want magic? risk drain. Want to be able to kill a dozen men in three seconds? There went a chunk of your soul.

And if I am still completly off base: Explain it too me. Feel free to use small words, as if I were a child. I don't mind.
mfb
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Granted, you can have all of that not happen by mutual agreement between the GM and the players. But fuck that! I want the rules to actually generate the kinds of stories I want with everyone playing to the best of their ability.

well, i'm glad somebody involved in SR4 (if only formerly) understands how some of us feel about the game.
deek
QUOTE (CyberKender)
QUOTE (deek @ Oct 12 2007, 08:08 AM)
I'm coming into this discussion late, but I wanted to confirm that our group has been using the Skill + Attribute limited by Rating for about a year and a half without any problems.  As several has mentioned, it pretty much mirrors the magic rules, with the exception that you can't choose the "Force" yourself.

Now, I have tossed around a house-rule to introduce dynamic programs, that do allow you to choose the program rating as you use it...again mirroring the magic rules, dynamic programs would give a certain level of "dumpshock" every time you use them.  Obviously, below your logic would be stun and above physical...

Just something that I have tossed around.

Our hacker has all his programs at the same rating, so there isn't much "thinking" when he rolls.  He has his logic and his skill, and its all capped by the rating (which is all the same), so its only a matter of which programs he has loaded, which is really only a problem when the node or IC is doing something against him.

What an interesting idea, Deek! That leads me to a variation on the idea: If you run a program with a rating higher than your Hacking, (or your Logic), it give you 'dumpshock'/feedback/drain that you have to resist with your Willpower + Logic. One box for each point of rating over. So, that script kiddie with a Hacking of 2 runs a Rating 6 program, he has to resist 4 boxes of stun damage, due to 'feedback overload', with his Will of 3 + Logic of 3. On average he'll take three boxes of stun. But when FastJack uses the same rating 6 program, he doesn't need to roll at all, since it's less than his Hacking of 7. Hmmm...Might have to kick this around with Sterling and even try it out.

What an interesting twist!!!

I actually like that a lot, as I always wanted to put some sort of "drain" into hacking, more than just cybercombat and dumpshock.

Having Logic act this way, providing the +/- on drain by program rating, may have a lot of possibilities, bringing Logic back into the fray and really separating the difference between hackers and script kiddies!
Kyoto Kid
...from the My mage owns yur streetsam thread...

QUOTE (darthmord)
Having a good tool will only get you just so far. Having the skill to use the tool will take you much much further.


...'nuff said.
Kerris
QUOTE (Orient)
Um. Half rating + rating/2 = rating.

Sorry, that was a typo. I meant rating + rating/2.
Whipstitch
QUOTE (Spike @ Oct 12 2007, 02:31 PM)
It also would seem to violate the idea, also somewhat central to Shadowrun, that Power comes with a price.   Want more computer power, risk brain damage. Want magic? risk drain. Want to be able to kill a dozen men in three seconds? There went a chunk of your soul.

I'm really unsure why you would bother bringing this up when SR4 currently has the safest and most noob friendly iteration of the Matrix yet printed. Frank's entire beef seems to rest upon the idea that power in the 'trix doesn't have to come at a price anymore. A Samurai with Wired 3, SkillWires and powerful Agent and attack programs has darn near as good a chance as anyone of kicking an invader off his PAN, and by using his boosted reflexes via AR he won't even be risking dumpshock by making the attempt either.
bjorn
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
My problem is that as outlined there's no place for the Hacker at all. The Skill can and should be replaced by an Agent. The Attribute cna and should be replaced by a Program. "You" don't really add to the dicepools at all. There's a big green button that says "Hack!" and you press it and you walk away.

-Frank

I totally agree with you Frank. Hell, I play a "Hacker" in my group and I'm throwing 18 dice at any test without even optimizing. My GM basically hand-waves any test I take because the chance of me rolling nine 1's is all but impossible. Thats why in my game I am going to make these changes to the rules...

Matrix Tests
Matrix tests are now Logic + Skill, with max hits = (Running Program Rating x 1/2, round up). Anything that is a passive program (such as Stealth) also runs at (Running Program Rating x 1/2, round up).

This means that your normal person with a maxed out commlink and program is only ever going to get 3 hits because they can only manipulate the program to do so much. I think this is reasonable because it means that anyone on the street is only going to be able to use a program to half of its capacity. This means that the Stuffer shack down the street is safe from pretty much anyone since it can out roll that person before he even hacks in, but the node does not have to be unrealistically SOTA. A Wage slave can not now hack his companies files and make his paycheck a million :nuyen.gif: This rule applies to agents as well, because I believe that the agents were designed to help out a hacker or do some menial task such as surfing the web, not take over his spot.

::NEW QUALITY::
Hacker/Decker/what-ever-you-want-to-call-it. 20BP-ish
This quality is what sets you basic punk apart from legends such as Fastjack. This quality allows the person to make matrix test like this.

Logic + Skill, max hits = running program rating.

I believe this new quality is what will solve problems such as Franks. Now the 3 IP Street Sam is no where near affective as a dedicated matrix user.

With my hacker example, I will be using 10 dice to try to make 6 hits
6(Logic) + 4(Skill) + 2(Code Slinger Quality), max hits 6(running program rating)

Any feedback is greatly appreciated.
deek
bjorn, I think you have a good system there. I would certainly think that would even up the playing field and give a user that buys that quality and advantage over a non-hacker.

The only comment I have is that, at least in my experience, not everyone wants to hack, even though with a relatively small investment, they could. Looking at my current group, only one player has all the necessary programs to effectively hack. Not to mention no one else has put the build points into the skills necessary to do it. Granted, these other players could just go out and buy a rating 6 (well, minus availability, of course) agent and be pretty darn good at most actions, but again, not everyone cares to be super l33t in the matrix. The other players are more interested in spending money to train skills or buy more firepower, so in a way, these limits are already on my players due to not having a desire to jump in the matrix. Heck, they don't do anything matrix related besides normal AR activities and the occaisional data search.

I realize that the rules are open to be abused, but there are limitations, nuyen, BP, karma, and simply just player preferences. Thus far, that has been enough for our group!
Gelare
QUOTE (bjorn)
This means that the Stuffer shack down the street is safe from pretty much anyone since it can out roll that person before he even hacks in, but the node does not have to be unrealistically SOTA. A Wage slave can not now hack his companies files and make his paycheck a million :nuyen.gif:

Yeah, that was always one of my top worries. When the limit of all hacking skill can be reached after an investment of, say, 100K nuyen.gif , I can't see why there wouldn't be a bunch of people hacking the hell out of pretty near everything, especially their own company's records - you know, those things that Shadowrunners with similar (or worse!) numbers of dice to roll are so often hired to change?
Heimdalol
Maybe the question should be not "Can the geeky kid with the right gear and a few skills hack the payroll server at Stuffershack regional headquarters?" ,but "Can he do it and get away with it." Shadow runners have the luxury of being able to book it and hide when the heat comes down. You'd need networks of trustworthy contacts, decent programs, fake ID's up the yin-yang and to be mostly off the grid. That is be a shadow runner. Otherwise this kids next cheque is going to be paid in lead.
blood_kite
QUOTE (Heimdalol @ Oct 16 2007, 07:56 PM)
Maybe the question should be not "Can the geeky kid with the right gear and a few skills hack the payroll server at Stuffershack regional headquarters?" ,but "Can he do it and get away with it."

For some reason this reminds of Superman III. Richard Pryor's character steals like $30,000 through manipulating the payroll system. The higher ups are lamenting the theft and commenting on the fact that whoever stole it is obviously too smart to get easily caught, right as Pryor shows up in a new pimped out convertible blaring the stereo system.

Even being smart enough to cover their electronic tracks does not prevent them from being caught.
Cheops
Not to mention that the vast majority of humanity, even in SR, is generally law-abiding and works within the system.

If someone in the "Real SR World" was able to accumulate 100,000K in "gear" they would more than likely spend it on housing, consumer goods, or cars.
kzt
QUOTE (blood_kite)
Richard Pryor's character steals like $30,000 through manipulating the payroll system. The higher ups are lamenting the theft and commenting on the fact that whoever stole it is obviously too smart to get easily caught, right as Pryor shows up in a new pimped out convertible blaring the stereo system.

How about Aldrich Ames, who showed up every day at the CIA in his brand new Jaguar, and wore his assortment of brand new Rolexs and his $1,500 Italian silk suits to meeting with his superiors, and bought a new house for $540,00 cash, all on his $70,000 salary. Their crack counterintelligence people only took NINE years to suspect something was up with him.
blood_kite
QUOTE (kzt)
QUOTE (blood_kite @ Oct 17 2007, 06:17 AM)
Richard Pryor's character steals like $30,000 through manipulating the payroll system.  The higher ups are lamenting the theft and commenting on the fact that whoever stole it is obviously too smart to get easily caught, right as Pryor shows up in a new pimped out convertible blaring the stereo system.

How about Aldrich Ames, who showed up every day at the CIA in his brand new Jaguar, and wore his assortment of brand new Rolexs and his $1,500 Italian silk suits to meeting with his superiors, and bought a new house for $540,00 cash, all on his $70,000 salary. Their crack counterintelligence people only took NINE years to suspect something was up with him.

Dude, that's the government. What do you expect? wink.gif
Cheops
QUOTE (blood_kite)
QUOTE (kzt @ Oct 17 2007, 07:26 AM)
QUOTE (blood_kite @ Oct 17 2007, 06:17 AM)
Richard Pryor's character steals like $30,000 through manipulating the payroll system.  The higher ups are lamenting the theft and commenting on the fact that whoever stole it is obviously too smart to get easily caught, right as Pryor shows up in a new pimped out convertible blaring the stereo system.

How about Aldrich Ames, who showed up every day at the CIA in his brand new Jaguar, and wore his assortment of brand new Rolexs and his $1,500 Italian silk suits to meeting with his superiors, and bought a new house for $540,00 cash, all on his $70,000 salary. Their crack counterintelligence people only took NINE years to suspect something was up with him.

Dude, that's the government. What do you expect? wink.gif

It's also a place that has very low transparency and where people are probably used to a fair amount of bureaucratic tomfoolery. Remember the American Intelligence network is replete with $5000 toilet seats and such not.
Jaid
QUOTE (Cheops)
Not to mention that the vast majority of humanity, even in SR, is generally law-abiding and works within the system.

no they're not.

piracy is the norm, for example. i would not be surprised in the slightest to discover that the average person has $10,000 or more stolen property from that act alone.

how many people spend all their time at work focused on work? i almost guarantee half the people who post here on dumpshock do so from work. assuming they are paid based on the amount of time they work, they are essentially stealing from their employers right there.

how many people deliberately take an extra 2-3 minutes every break? do you have any idea how much is lost from retail stores via employee theft? (for the record, i used to work in the dairy department for a grocery store, and we regularly found 2-3 cartons of chocolate milk left empty in the cooler per week).

how many people do you know who use illegal drugs (for example, marijuana?) how many people will tell a cashier when they've been given $10 too much in change?

and we're not even supposed to be very dystopian. the world of shadowrun is full of people who are in it for themselves only. if people today are willing to break laws as long as they don't feel they're gonna get caught and punished, anyone in shadowrun who is able to get away with it will do the same.
Cheops
QUOTE (Jaid)
QUOTE (Cheops @ Oct 17 2007, 09:32 AM)
Not to mention that the vast majority of humanity, even in SR, is generally law-abiding and works within the system.

no they're not.

piracy is the norm, for example. i would not be surprised in the slightest to discover that the average person has $10,000 or more stolen property from that act alone.

how many people spend all their time at work focused on work? i almost guarantee half the people who post here on dumpshock do so from work. assuming they are paid based on the amount of time they work, they are essentially stealing from their employers right there.

how many people deliberately take an extra 2-3 minutes every break? do you have any idea how much is lost from retail stores via employee theft? (for the record, i used to work in the dairy department for a grocery store, and we regularly found 2-3 cartons of chocolate milk left empty in the cooler per week).

how many people do you know who use illegal drugs (for example, marijuana?) how many people will tell a cashier when they've been given $10 too much in change?

and we're not even supposed to be very dystopian. the world of shadowrun is full of people who are in it for themselves only. if people today are willing to break laws as long as they don't feel they're gonna get caught and punished, anyone in shadowrun who is able to get away with it will do the same.

wow...you totally changed the context of the statement. There's a big difference between:

- pirating music and videos versus stealing CDs from a store
- taking extra long breaks and idle time from work versus stealing for a living
- stealing 2 or 3 cartons of milk per week versus stealing hundreds or thousands of dollars out of the cash register
- using illegal drugs versus taking illegal combat drugs to help you steal shit

I'm not saying that niggling little shit like you mentioned doesn't go on today or in SR. There is. And it will be much more pronounced in SR than it is nowadays.

The post that I talking about originally was the thread started by Bjorn about people hacking their company's payroll system and giving themselves a pay raise. Not many people, even in SR, are going to do that.

Magnitude man...there's a difference of magnitude.
Jaid
you said that people are generally law-abiding.

my point is that people are only generally law-abiding to the extent that they think they might get caught.

you can say there's a difference between stealing a physical CD and stealing the intellectual property contained on that CD. i call that BS.

you can say there's a difference between giving yourself a false pay-raise and working less for the same amount of money. i call that BS, too.

you can say there's a difference between stealing $10 of product per week for several months and stealing $300 all at once. but hey, guess what? i call that BS, too.

none of the people i have posted above are what you would likely consider to be "career criminals", but that doesn't prevent them from stealing in situations where they don't get caught.

i know of people who have taken breaks 2.5 hours long when they were entitled to 15 minutes. why? they didn't care about the consequences. as soon as you remove the probability of facing consequences for your actions, people will cease to care about the effects of their actions.

or perhaps you'd like to tell the music recording industry that they're *not* losing millions upon millions of dollars per year because people are just pirating music. perhaps you'd like to tell them that "it's not a large amount, really". perhaps you might find that they think quite differently.
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (kzt)
QUOTE (blood_kite @ Oct 17 2007, 06:17 AM)
Richard Pryor's character steals like $30,000 through manipulating the payroll system.  The higher ups are lamenting the theft and commenting on the fact that whoever stole it is obviously too smart to get easily caught, right as Pryor shows up in a new pimped out convertible blaring the stereo system.

How about Aldrich Ames, who showed up every day at the CIA in his brand new Jaguar, and wore his assortment of brand new Rolexs and his $1,500 Italian silk suits to meeting with his superiors, and bought a new house for $540,00 cash, all on his $70,000 salary. Their crack counterintelligence people only took NINE years to suspect something was up with him.

The funniest part is not that this has only happened once, it's that it keeps happening. You make the guy declare his shareholdings to you, and you know exactly how much he is getting paid.

When he rocks up in a new audi and doesn't take out finance, find out what is up.

But yeah, it keeeps going.
Emperor Tippy
QUOTE
or perhaps you'd like to tell the music recording industry that they're *not* losing millions upon millions of dollars per year because people are just pirating music. perhaps you'd like to tell them that "it's not a large amount, really". perhaps you might find that they think quite differently.

This is actually slightly false. I download many things that I would never pay money for.

I downloaded SR4 and found that I liked it so I went and bought a print copy because I don't really like reading on a computer screen. FanPro made money from me downloading illegally that they wouldn't have made otherwise.

I know many other peopel who are the same way.

Yes the people loose money but it isn't a 1 for 1 loss, like a CD is. If I steal a CD I am removing any possibility of someone paying money for that CD and am costing the company the cost of physically creating the CD. If I download an mp3 file with the CD's content I am not removing someones elses ability to purchase the data or costing the author any money.
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