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Gelare
So I was thinking about how Matrix tests aren't based on logic at all, whatsoever. It's all done by Skill+Program. And I was wondering why it would be like that. So first I realized that computing in 2070 is nothing like it is nowadays. You'll notice that hacking into a node protected by Renraku Omniprotect Firewall, and then going and hacking another node, often in the same company, protected by the same software, requires a completely new set of skill checks, starting totally from scratch. You'd think it would be easier the second time around, having found an exploit that should work on every instance of that software you encounter, but nope, this is not the case.

The reason, of course, is that programs in 2070 are stupid advanced, and we can't actually describe them well with our pitiful computing vocabulary. There must be a bunch of majorly unpredictable parts to them, or else it would be easier to hack the second time around. So presumably the Exploit program that you buy for hacking takes those complex subroutines of Firewall software into account - something your puny Logic stat could never do on its own. The skill, Hacking, is how well trained you are at using that Exploit program to do stuff - knowing the right processes to point it at, or whatever. That kind of in-depth, technical knowledge isn't covered by generic Logic either, especially since there's no reason why a person with a high Logic stat should instinctively know anything about computers.

So if you were going to decide what numbers to use for a hacking skill check, you would prioritize them thusly: the Program rating, the efficiency and quality of the code and the ingenuity of the programmer, would be first, followed by your technical training with how to use computer programs, the Skill, and in a distant third would be your general, abstract Logical reasoning capability.

Personally, I do think Matrix tests should be somehow related to Logic (cap hits? limit program rating to Logic?), but I can also see how, in a system that tries real hard to keep tests down to two inputs (this is not the medkit you're looking for!) one could try to justify not using Logic for Matrix tests.

Thoughts?
Aaron
I agree with your reasoning.

Incidentally, Logic is used in the Matrix; it's used in the writing of the programs. Maybe it's not your Logic that's being used, but there it is.
FrankTrollman
My problem is that as outlined there's no place for the Hacker at all. The Skill can and should be replaced by an Agent. The Attribute cna and should be replaced by a Program. "You" don't really add to the dicepools at all. There's a big green button that says "Hack!" and you press it and you walk away.

Now it's certainly a potentially realistic depiction of the future to have all computer-related disagreements solved by having both sides invest thousands into computer equipment and having the equipment square off in some sort of crazy virtual cat-and-mouse arena combat while both sides shrug and go about their business. But that's a future that doesn't have any "Hackers" in it. A future in which the "Matrix Specialist" isn't part of a covert ops team - where instead getting a Matrix Assault together is simply part of a covert ops budget over and above whatever team is assembled.

And honestly, fuck that. That's a future that I don't want to play in. It does not tell stories I want told and it doesn't feel like "Shadowrun" at all. I'm fucking pissed, and I'm no longer interested in what is contained in the SR4 Matrix book. It's Script Kiddie all the way and I don't even want to read it.

-Frank
Spike
Frank,

I think he is suggesting that the Exploit program is something like a very specific 'agent' and the firewall is also more akin to a very specific 'agent'. And while it is possible to have these two automated programs beat each other stupid all day every day until one wins that the process can be very much improved by the human element, which in the cultural landscape always brings that 'unpredictable element that baffles pure logic of computers' to the table, realistic or not. And, realistic or not, that cultural artefact also allows us to have hackers in a game setting that in your ideal realization doesn't need the human element at all.

FrankTrollman
But game mechcally, it doesn't. Your dicepool is made out of two things:

Agent or Skill Wire Program (Skill Rating) + Action Program (Attribute Rating)

You purchase both parts. A human being does not need to be present and the dicepools involved are no different if one is! Worse, the Programs which do these things are iteratable. You can just have more. If not by cracking copy protection and making hundreds of copies, then simply by purchasing more from the store.

There's no human element in the rules outlined in the Basic Book. And the guidelines for writing Unwired essentially forbid one from being added. The SR4 Matrix rules are a sham, and I no longer feel compelled to try to "make them work". I'm just going to call a spade a spade: The SR4 Matrix Rules are shit on a plate, and no amount of salt and paprika can make them taste good.

Meh. It's frustrating, but there it goes. I have irreconcilable differences with the SR4 Matrix rules and I'm divorcing them from my gaming life.

-Frank
Spike
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)


Meh. It's frustrating, but there it goes. I have irreconcilable differences with the SR4 Matrix rules and I'm divorcing them from my gaming life.

-Frank

But now you will have to pay alimony until 5th Ed ships. Bad idea, man... just tough it out! wink.gif


As much as I dislike 'houseruling' on a portability rational, I would suggest that I would stick to the idea that skillwires can only give you physical skills, as you are just repeating mechanical actions from an expert. Cyberpunk did it better, alas.

Ditto agenting it out. Make the dice pool more explicitly 'Skill + Program'. Put an agent into the mix and you replace the exploit (which I defined a moment ago as a specialized agent), not the skill.

Its easy for me, though> I don't program diddlysquat IRL, so I got no baggage to bring to the game. I think the rules as written are overly vague in places, but functional enough for a game. Just as long as my players don't try using my laptop to 'hack' someone IRL using the SR4 matrix rules (somehow) and call the fuzz to my house, I'm cool with it.

I've done the 'realistic CP genre' with GURPS (so real the FBI confisticated it!!!! biggrin.gif ) and it was boring and dry as the mojave sands.
HappyDaze
So if you houseruled it to Logic (or possibly another Attribute) + Skill + Program for the hacker and added in a third rating (or doubled one of the existing ratings) for the resisting rolls would that be better?
Gelare
QUOTE (HappyDaze)
So if you houseruled it to Logic (or possibly another Attribute) + Skill + Program for the hacker and added in a third rating (or doubled one of the existing ratings) for the resisting rolls would that be better?

I've been considering that. The analysis goes like this:

Pros:
Lets Logic be used in hacking tests.
Makes Agents worse (assuming they don't get to use anything where you get Logic).

Cons:
Everything becomes instantly more complicated and harder to remember.
The thresholds will all need to be retooled.
IC doesn't stand a chance against a hacker.

Basically, the fix isn't as easy as that. In fact, I'm largely inclined to agree with Frank. Call me picky for having high standards, but the SR4 Matrix rules don't meet 'em. You simply don't need a human for anything. You're putting the hacker - the PC in your party, the guy sitting there at the table - in the same bin with a maxed out commlink, an Agent, and programs, which sure doesn't cost the same 400 BP as a hacker.
Fortune
QUOTE (HappyDaze)
So if you houseruled it to Logic (or possibly another Attribute) + Skill + Program for the hacker and added in a third rating (or doubled one of the existing ratings) for the resisting rolls would that be better?

Yes. Or make it Logic + Skill with hits limited to Program rating. Or Skill + Program with hits limited to Logic rating. or ...

Almost anything would be better, in my opinion.
mfb
seems like a fairly simple fix to me. you just need clearer rules for controlling agents. those rules need to basically make sure that agents can't perform complex tasks without complex preprogramming.
Orient
To be fair, the SR4 matrix concepts don't exclude the hacker as a viable character - the SR4 rules do. Has anyone had any additional experience with that "Attribute+Skill, with hits limited by program rating" houserule yet? That one seemed like it could work...

Edit: You're just plain faster than me, Fortune. ; )
Fortune
QUOTE (Orient)
You're just plain faster than me, Fortune.

Sometimes that just ain't a good thing. wink.gif
Orient
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Orient @ Oct 12 2007, 06:11 AM)
You're just plain faster than me, Fortune.

Sometimes that just ain't a good thing. wink.gif

<<cough>>

Hey, we're talkin computers, here..
Moon-Hawk
I agree with Frank, although perhaps with less vehemence and finality.

I will not argue with anyone whether or not computing is realistic. Ask someone from 1944 whether our modern computing is realistic. Well, first you'd have to actually find someone who knows anything about computers in 1944, but they were around, and if you can wrangle a time machine I'm sure you can tackle the problem of finding a 1944 computer expert. I'm pretty confident that they would assure you that just about everything we do with computers is either flat-out impossible, or simply unrealistic.

But I don't really want to argue that point with anyone either. In fact, if someone wants to dispute that, I'll concede the point. You know why? 'Cause I don't care. I'm not trying to predict the future of computing. I'm trying to play a game, and I want that game to be fun.

If I can do all the hacking I need with a skillsoft and a program and it doesn't make a bit of difference whether that gear is being used by a Logic 10 hyper-genius or a Logic 1 dope, that's bad for the game. If an Agent is just as good (or even really close to just as good) as a Hacker, that's bad for the game too, although in my mind not as bad as the genius/dope thing. I think having Hackers in the game is an important part of it. I don't care if it's a realistic part or not. The human element has to be important. Justify it; I don't care how.

Now in SR4's defense, Augmentation helped this situation. A lot. With all the great new toys that boost dice pools when engaged in hacking actions (none of which are available to Agents), suddenly a dedicated hacker is much better than a good Agent, instead of marginally better as they were before. Also, a dope with all that great gear gets better at hacking, but they're also less of a dope in other areas, so that's better too. That doesn't really get around the skillwires problem, unless those bonus dice don't add when using skillwires, but if that's the case I'd love to see the page reference, 'cause I've missed it. The point is that it got better, but it still feels like a patch on a more fundamental problem.

But of course, take anything I say about the SR4 Matrix with a grain of salt, because as you probably already know I use my own house rules for the Matrix based on Attribute+Skill. So what the hell do I know about the core Matrix rules, I don't even use them! I will say, though, that when Augmentation came out every single bit of gear that affects Matrix use in any way instantly worked as written with my house rules with no alterations, addendums, or errata to said house rules or to Augmentation, and I expect to see the same with Unwired.

In the end, if SR4 Hacking works well for you, if it makes sense, and your game plays the way you want it to, then there's nothing wrong with it. Just understand that there is a contingent of people (I won't invent any statistics about how many) like Frank, who are really bothered by the fact that everything a hacker does can be so trivially replaced by gear, and that has nothing to do with realism. For these people, it's not a matter of justifying the way the Matrix rules are. They don't want to justify them, they want the Matrix to work differently and for the rules to justify that. You've never been able to replace a dedicated hacker with a few thousand Nuyen worth of stuff in editions 1-3, and that difference in 4 is troublesome. Of course, in the current incarnation of SR4 being a Hacker is less of a dedicated role and more like a secondary role for a lot of characters, and that now everyone is expected to have a level of ability, but that's just all the more reason to foist the extra burden onto a good Agent if you can get away with it.

Well, this has gotten very long, but I was just trying to help clarify a position, because I know that there are people out there who just can't understand what people's problem is with the SR4 Matrix rules. I'm not talking about anyone in particular, I'm just trying to help.
Fortune
QUOTE (Orient)
Hey, we're talkin computers, here..

True, but wasn't the point to try to add more of the human element? biggrin.gif
Thanee
Aren't Agents limited to Rating 4 with no Specializations?
And they don't have Edge.

That's a pretty huge difference right there...

Though the lack of Logic in the equation is still something that really bugs me, too.

Bye
Thanee
Fortune
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
I agree with Frank, although perhaps with less vehemence and finality.

I suspect Frank has had access to the Unwired guidelines, and therefore has a reason for his vehement stance.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Fortune)
Yes. Or make it Logic + Skill with hits limited to Program rating. Or Skill + Program with hits limited to Logic rating. or ...

Almost anything would be better, in my opinion.

Like Logic+Skill and program ratings be damned. We no longer have to learn spells at a particular force, so why the hell should we still have to put up with needing to note 25 different ratings (hyperbole? I haven't counted) to govern the use of one stupid skill!?
And no, before anyone says it, it really doesn't require redoing the entire Matrix system from the ground up, it takes a dozen bullet points over a half a page.
Fortune
QUOTE (Thanee)
Aren't Agents limited to Rating 4 ...

Not that I know of.
mfb
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
You've never been able to replace a dedicated hacker with a few thousand Nuyen worth of stuff in editions 1-3, and that difference in 4 is troublesome.

what? yes you could. it didn't cost a few thousand nuyen, it cost tens of thousands of nuyen--but so did everything else, so it works out to be the same thing. drones and agents were just as capable in SR2-3 (haven't checked 1, so i can't be sure) as they are in 4.
Orient
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Orient @ Oct 12 2007, 06:17 AM)
Hey, we're talkin computers, here..

True, but wasn't the point to try to add more of the human element? biggrin.gif


Don't 2070 computers still use biological pigment shifts for binary whatsits? That makes them carbon based, too. biggrin.gif

(Also, I hereby declare that the human element counts as an ignoble gas.)
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Thanee @ Oct 12 2007, 06:24 AM)
Aren't Agents limited to Rating 4 ...

Not that I know of.

I used to use that house-rule, for a while, just to make sure Agents stayed below the Hackers, but I got rid of it when Augmentation came out.
Spike
My big complaint about the matrix rules (and mind you, I've offered what I think is a viable fix to agents in this regard....) is that they violate the standard pattern.

Most dice pools are generated via a 'attribute+skill' set, with equipment and environment providing bonuses/penalties depending or 'other things'... such as a gun's damage code and range.

Hacking, of course, does not follow this pattern. Ideally it should

This solves several problems, not the least of which is the Swiss Army Samurai/everyone a hacker so the hacker does everything situation.

It makes the game more intuitive and easier to learn/get into.

Its 'pretty', in an aesthetically balanced sort of way.

And it kills 'script kiddie' complaints dead. Like Raid.

I am reasonably certain that, were I inclined to houserule (as I am not) I could take the tools provided in the book and write a simple, elegant 'rewrite' that accomplished this; In a paragraph or less, and with a commensurate investment of time.





And guys like Frank who know computers better than I do (anyone here? Probably...) would still bitch that it didn't match up to how 'computers work' worth a damn. Encryption would still suck. And the book would still say exactly what it does now.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
You've never been able to replace a dedicated hacker with a few thousand Nuyen worth of stuff in editions 1-3, and that difference in 4 is troublesome.

what? yes you could. it didn't cost a few thousand nuyen, it cost tens of thousands of nuyen--but so did everything else, so it works out to be the same thing. drones and agents were just as capable in SR2-3 (haven't checked 1, so i can't be sure) as they are in 4.

Really? You could be right. I was thinking that Agents were severely more limited in what they could do, but I could be wrong about that.
Orient
Lets not forget, for purposes of comparison, that a combat character could be replaced by an appropriately outfitted drone.

Really, I just dislike the idea that an Int-1, Log-1 hacker could be as good as an Int-5, Log-5 hacker. It'd be nice if the more intelligent hacker's ability to formulate spooky tricks in the matrix was represented by something more than simply a justification for the character having high skills.
Kyoto Kid
Hacking the SR 4 way

...thought this would be appropriate... grinbig.gif
Emperor Tippy
The X+Y limited by Z ends up not working in my experience. The Rating 6 agent on a rating 6 comlink with a rating 6 program has the same limit.

I usually run Skill+Program+.5Logic (rounded up) , but that only improves it marginally. 6 Logic gives on average 1 extra hit, 7 logic allows you to buy 1 extra hit.

If you do Skill+Program+Logic it actually makes the human hacker good but it means that virtually no system can ever keep the good, dedicated hacker out.

I like the hacker fluff and love playing matrix specialists but from a mechanics stand point you are better having 1 person who can break copy protection and buying a rating 6 comlink or 2 for every member of the team and loading them up with a full suite of rating 6 programs and a few copies of a rating 6 agent. It's even better when you have them work together for teamwork tests.

And then you get the problem that every node is an ultraviolet level host with dozens of IC, rating 6+ across the board, etc. Thats the stuffer shacks level of security.

If you figure the average person has 3's across the board then whats the point of shadow running. Their comlink has all of their information on it. Set up a fake company outside of your nation of residence and just transfer the contents of a persons bank account to the fake company, where the money is taken, turned into cred sticks, and laundered immediately.

Assume the average person has 1,000 nuyen.gif in his bank account. Hit 10 accounts and you have made as much as your average shadow run. Hit 5 a day, an hours worth of work, and you bring in 150,000 nuyen.gif per month easily.

And for people who say you can't do that, the fridge in your average SINer's home orders food automatically when it detects your running low, and pays for it. I hack your fridge and tell it that you want some rare caviar that costs 1,000 nuyen.gif per ounce and to order it from XYZ Caviar.
Thanee
QUOTE (Fortune)
Not that I know of.

Hmm... weird... wonder where I got that, then... thought both Agents and Pilots were limited to Rating 4, but doesn't look like either are.

Bye
Thanee
Orient
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Oct 11 2007, 03:31 PM)
Really?  You could be right.  I was thinking that Agents were severely more limited in what they could do, but I could be wrong about that.

Well, they can't spend edge ... but that hardly seems like enough of a difference.

Edit: Alright - also, they can't swap programs or employ additional agents.
mfb
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
Really? You could be right. I was thinking that Agents were severely more limited in what they could do, but I could be wrong about that.

nope. agents in SR2-3 are basically as smart as the GM allows them to be. we had a decker who... well, he didn't break the system (i know because i broke him with a particularly vicious host), but he stretched it pretty badly, using agents and options.
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Thanee)
QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 11 2007, 10:26 PM)
Not that I know of.

Hmm... weird... wonder where I got that, then... thought both Agents and Pilots were limited to Rating 4, but doesn't look like either are.

Bye
Thanee

Agents do have an availability of R X 3.

This is the likely source of the no agent rating higher then 4 thoughts.
Orient
QUOTE (Emperor Tippy)
The X+Y limited by Z ends up not working in my experience. The Rating 6 agent on a rating 6 comlink with a rating 6 program has the same limit.

I usually run Skill+Program+.5Logic (rounded up) , but that only improves it marginally. 6 Logic gives on average 1 extra hit, 7 logic allows you to buy 1 extra hit.

If you do Skill+Program+Logic it actually makes the human hacker good but it means that virtually no system can ever keep the good, dedicated hacker out.

Except that getting 6 hits on 12 dice isn't really going to happen that often. Certainly not as much as 6 hits on 15 dice, for the hacker with a Cerebral Booster - to say nothing of the various other enhancements in Augmentation.

I agree that Skill+Program+Logic isn't the answer. Still have to think about the half-logic thing..
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
Really? You could be right. I was thinking that Agents were severely more limited in what they could do, but I could be wrong about that.

nope. agents in SR2-3 are basically as smart as the GM allows them to be. we had a decker who... well, he didn't break the system (i know because i broke him with a particularly vicious host), but he stretched it pretty badly, using agents and options.

Well, that still doesn't negate my entire point, I'm just going to claim that it was bad back then, too. wink.gif

I do actually like that there exists the possibility for an expert system to be a convenient matrix sidekick and take up some slack. I don't like it if that is so effective and easy to achieve that it devalues the Hacker as a character concept. I know, I'm asking for a pretty fine line.

I will say again, just to be clear, I actually use 95% of the SR4 Matrix rules exactly as written, and it works really well. It's just that my half-page of changes is at such a fundamental level. That, and I feel like the Matrix creates a disproportionately large amount of confusion.
HappyDaze
QUOTE
make it Logic + Skill with hits limited to Program rating.

So like spellcasting but with the program rating being the Force?

How has this worked out for you?

QUOTE
I agree that Skill+Program+Logic isn't the answer.

I did suggest that one of the opposing values be doubled. This means that while a hacker would roll Logic + Skill + Program +/- assorted modifiers the agent/IC/sprite would roll (rating x 2) + Program +/- assorted modifers. The dice pools would stay in proportion, but now a smart hacker is better than a dumb one. If using this, I'd suggest doubling the agent rating for the purposes of calculating nuyen cost to make high level agents very expensive.
Orient
QUOTE (HappyDaze)

I did suggest that one of the opposing values be doubled.

I'd just be concerned that there'd be fallout from that sort of rules change, ya know? And I'd probably be too lazy to scour the rules for potential mishaps..
WearzManySkins
You could merely expand the Electronics Warfare section in SR4, that allows Logic to be substituted in place of the program, but is Hands On Electronic Warfare.

WMS
mfb
the thing is, this big problem Frank has with the rules is the product of a grey area--a subject that the rules don't cover explicitly. this grey area is the question of how much decision-making capability a drone/agent has. can you just tell an agent, "provide Matrix overwatch for me while i infiltrate this facility" and expect it to perform at the same level as a comparably-skilled hacker? Frank seems to think the answer is yes, but the rules do not agree with him. they don't disagree, either, but they don't explicitly say that an agent is as capable of making decisions as a live hacker.

this means that there is wiggle room. if a GM finds his Matrix is in danger of being overrun with agents, he can simply say "sorry, your agent doesn't know what to do right now. your character has to stop what he's doing, check on the agent's situation, and give it instructions." if the GM doesn't care, or if he doesn't have a hacker to keep entertained, he can let agents do whatever he wants them to do.

personally, i'd prefer harder rules on such matters. that shouldn't surprise anyone who's heard me talk about SR4. but i don't think the lack of attributes in hacking is necessarily the ohnoes asplosions Frank thinks it is.
Orient
I .. I feel sorta bad for falling back on Gödel's incompleteness theorem, here, but...
Moon-Hawk
That's a good point mfb. My rule of thumb is that as long as the topic in question is matrix-related, an Agent is probably about as smart as a person whose Logic is equal to its Rating. Outside of that area of expertise, it drops off quickly. I may be giving them too much credit.
mfb
you're only giving them too much credit if they're becoming a problem in your game. one of the "strengths" of SR4 is its elasticity--the fact that the rules don't cover every little situation, so the GM is free to make on-the-fly adjustments in cases where the rules don't cover every little situation. i'm repelled by the thinking behind that elasticity, but it'd be pretty dumb to not use it in situations where it can effect a positive affect on your game.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (mfb)
you're only giving them too much credit if they're becoming a problem in your game.

Nah, I'm good. wink.gif
Yoan
Assuming I were to switch over to Logic + Skill, succeses capped by Program Rating... what does the Node/System/IC roll?
Emperor Tippy
Agents use their rating in place of all skills and attributes for all tests that they can perform.

Thats why even Skill+Program capped by attribute does nothing to stop Agent hacking.
Synner
QUOTE (Thanee @ Oct 11 2007, 08:33 PM)
Hmm... weird... wonder where I got that, then... thought both Agents and Pilots were limited to Rating 4, but doesn't look like either are.

You are in fact partly correct: for player characters agents/pilots/IC are limited to Rating 4 at chargen because of Availability.
Orient
QUOTE (Emperor Tippy)
Agents use their rating in place of all skills and attributes for all tests that they can perform.

Thats why even Skill+Program capped by attribute does nothing to stop Agent hacking.

Except that it's a lot easier to boost Attributes past 6. It's not a huge difference, but it's one that'd encourage me to play a hacker.
CyberKender
Orient: Our gaming group used that rule last session, and it worked out pretty well. No major hacking in the session, but enough that no one complained. Personally, I like it. It's virtually the same as spellcasting, so it's not even a new rule, really.


As an IT professional with some knowledge of network security, the entire Wireless World of 4th Ed. makes me grind my teeth. It's got nothing to do with the specific mechanics of how Shadowrun computers work, but the logic behind how everything is connected. SR4 essentially says that the entire world's computer systems are on one massive mesh network, so the only security is by encryption and IC on the computer in question. It's really cool that you can access the 'Internet' from virtually anywhere, but if you think I'm going to connect the computers in my company that contain financial records/monetary transactions/personnel records to it, without a bottleneck and a huge firewall, you're insane! Now, the mechanics to make me take a step back, since it's not quite as easy as it appears, but other than that, I can sympathize with Frank's reaction. I hope they make things better in the Matrix book....

Frank: What system do you use for hacking?
Orient
I agree with the "everything's connected" thing being a bit odd. I've developed a few methods for implementing chokepoints, nested systems, and the like.

I still have a few concerns about the Matrix, of course.. I'm just too lazy to dig back through some of the major threads on the topic at the moment.
Eurotroll
QUOTE (CyberKender)
It's really cool that you can access the 'Internet' from virtually anywhere, but if you think I'm going to connect the computers in my company that contain financial records/monetary transactions/personnel records to it, without a bottleneck and a huge firewall, you're insane! Now, the mechanics to make me take a step back, since it's not quite as easy as it appears, but other than that, I can sympathize with Frank's reaction. I hope they make things better in the Matrix book....

But isn't that exactly how the Matrix is described? And also, come to think of it, why on-site hacking is so often necessary in a variety of runs?

My problem with Logic+Skill capped by Program has always been that, hypothetically, were FastJack to be cornered into using a crap Rating 1 program with no other help available, he'd be pretty much data-toast (for an assumed Logic 7 + Hacking 7+2 to be capped to 1 hit is... ouch!). For Skill+Program capped by Logic, that wouldn't necessarily be the case -- but it's an eyesore to have one rather central aspect of SR gaming to break the ATT+SKI mold.

*sigh* I still haven't decided what do implement in my game. I suppose I'll let my TM player go wild for a session and see how things develop.
Orient
QUOTE (Eurotroll)
But isn't that exactly how the Matrix is described? And also, come to think of it, why on-site hacking is so often necessary in a variety of runs?

My problem with Logic+Skill capped by Program has always been that, hypothetically, were FastJack to be cornered into using a crap Rating 1 program with no other help available, he'd be pretty much data-toast (for an assumed Logic 7 + Hacking 7+2 to be capped to 1 hit is... ouch!). For Skill+Program capped by Logic, that wouldn't necessarily be the case -- but it's an eyesore to have one rather central aspect of SR gaming to break the ATT+SKI mold.

*sigh* I still haven't decided what do implement in my game. I suppose I'll let my TM player go wild for a session and see how things develop.

Although it does bring up another idea I had: dice pool penalties for extra spookiness. Something along the lines of called shots, maybe?

Eh. I dunno. I like the idea of a simple fix.

And what's Fastjack doing with that program, anyhow? Having Logic 7 would imply that he's smart enough to keep backup computers and programs squirreled away in various places. biggrin.gif
Eurotroll
Well, that's where, you know, we enter the realm of the hypothetical. wink.gif
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