Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Please Answer Me This...
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
Ghost in the Machine
Hello!

I've just started running a Shadowrun game, and I have a few questions regarding rules. (I'm sorry if these have been asked before.)

1) Where can I find the prices for the drugs on pages 248-250? (I have a player whose character has an addiction to one of these.)

2) Is there someplace I can find a reference chart for matrix rolls and opposed rolls?

3) In character creation, if a character has an Essence of 5, can they have a Magic of 5 by spending 40 points, or do they have to spend 65? (I've houseruled the former, but I'd like to know the official rule.)

4) Why take a respirator over a gas mask? Is there a typo in cost?

5) On page 260-261, it states that Forged IDs make an opposed test versus the verification system. Where can I find information on verification systems and what level of system is appropriate for particular places?

6) Where are the rules for rounding?

Thanks!

I'm sure I'll have more questions later.

-~GitM
Fortune
QUOTE (Ghost in the Machine)
1) Where can I find the prices for the drugs on pages 248-250? (I have a player whose character has an addiction to one of these.)

There are none as of yet in SR4 (maybe in Arsenal). You could do a search on these forums for Drugs, as there are a couple of threads with some suggested price lists.

QUOTE
2) Is there someplace I can find a reference chart for matrix rolls and opposed rolls?


knasser has some stuff here. There are a couple of other forum members that have useful websites, but I don't have them in saved at the moment.

QUOTE
3) In character creation, if a character has an Essence of 5, can they have a Magic of 5 by spending 40 points, or do they have to spend 65?  (I've houseruled the former, but I'd like to know the official rule.)


Technically, it's the latter, although I don't think it is too bad of a house rule to do it as you have done.

QUOTE
4) Why take a respirator over a gas mask?  Is there a typo in cost?


I dunno. Go for the Respirator. wink.gif

QUOTE
On page 260-261, it states that Forged IDs make an opposed test versus the verification system.  Where can I find information on verification systems and what level of system is appropriate for particular places?


I had a brief look, but couldn't find it. frown.gif
FrankTrollman
1> Man and Machine. Ha! Last I checked, there was supposed to be some drug prices in Arsenal.

2> Ug. No.

3> During character generation, you purchase up your Magic Attribute and then your Magic attribute goes down from Essence loss. So to have a Magic of 5 and an Essence of 5, you have to buy a Magic of 6 (for 65 points) and then watch your reduced Essence drop it down to 5.

4> The same reason that you take a respirator over a gas mask today. A gas mask is a self-contained breathing apparatus. There's an actual tank of compressed air and you breathe only that. There's no chance of accidentally breathing poison gas, because you aren't breathing the outside air at all. However, it's uncomfortable, heavy, limited in duration, and not stylish at all. Yes, the protection from wearing and breathing from an O2 tank with no gas exchange with the outside world is more than simply wearing a mask - but seriously how many people do you see running around with dust masks? How many with SCUBA tanks?

5> All over Dumpshock. In general, most places run around with verification systems in the 1-3 range.

-Frank
Hank Chinanski
QUOTE (Ghost in the Machine)
1) Where can I find the prices for the drugs on pages 248-250?  (I have a player whose character has an addiction to one of these.)


There are no prices given. You can just rule the prices as you see fit.

QUOTE
2) Is there someplace I can find a reference chart for matrix rolls and opposed rolls?

I don't have any idea where to find that. I want to write this myself but it will be german:)
QUOTE
3) In character creation, if a character has an Essence of 5, can they have a Magic of 5 by spending 40 points, or do they have to spend 65? (I've houseruled the former, but I'd like to know the official rule.)

It's 65 BP, since an essence of 5 reduces your maximal magic to 5 too. So the rules of maxing out attributes have to be applied.
Notice, that the order doesn't matter: You could argue that the magic was bought first, and the ware implated is the second step. But then it's obvious that you have to start with a magic of 6 to end up with a magic of 5 after implantation.

To your 5th question you can find propabely something in this forum using the search function.

Frank was faster than me
Fortune
QUOTE (Hank Chinanski)
Frank was faster than me

Yeah yeah! What about me? I beat ya both! nyahnyah.gif *









*though some of Frank's answers were more comprehensive.
Ryu
Verification Systems unfortunately have to use the device rating table in the wireless chapter. I´d run with Franks 1-3 for fast scans (police drones on patrol) and 5+ for deep scans (airports etc).
Hank Chinanski
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Hank Chinanski @ Nov 2 2007, 07:42 PM)
Frank was faster than me

Yeah yeah! What about me? I beat ya both! nyahnyah.gif *









*though some of Frank's answers were more comprehensive.

Sorry, I saw your post later than Frank's and was too idle to edit my post again wink.gif
Respect, you was the fastest:)
WearzManySkins
@FrankTrollman

Gas mask filters the air, it is not a self contained air breathing system. I know I have used them many times in my Military service. smile.gif Now what SR4 defines as a respirator...

Wiki says

"A respirator is a device designed to protect the wearer from inhaling harmful dusts, fumes, vapors, and/or gases. Respirators come in a wide range of types and sizes used by the military, private industry, and the public.

There are two main categories: the air-purifying respirator, which forces contaminated air through a filtering element, and the air-supplied respirator, in which an alternate supply of fresh air is delivered. Within each category, different techniques are employed to reduce or eliminate noxious airborne contents."

Wiki about gas masks
"A gas mask is a mask worn over the face to protect the wearer from inhaling airborne pollutants and toxic materials. The mask forms a sealed cover over the nose and mouth, but may also cover the eyes and other vulnerable soft tissues of the face. Some gas masks are also respirators, though the word gas mask is often used to refer to military equipment "

WMS
ThreeGee
QUOTE
> The same reason that you take a respirator over a gas mask today. A gas mask is a self-contained breathing apparatus.


I'd say completely the opposite, a gasmask filters air, a respirator is self contained, but that's the opposite of how the rules work.

If you go back into earlier editions, there is no gasmask, only respirators are available, and they have gas tanks, you could even buy them with regulators so you could use them under water at depth.
Fortune
QUOTE (SR4 pg 327)
Gas Mask: Completely covers the user’s face and filters out toxic substances. It provides immunity to inhalation-vector toxins (see Toxic Substances, p. 245). Cannot be combined with a respirator.


QUOTE (SR4 pg. 328)
Respirator: A respirator is a filtering device worn over the mouth and nose that protects against inhalation-vector toxins (see Toxic Substances, p. 245). The respirator adds its ratings to toxin resistance tests.
ThreeGee
When it comes to an inhalation vector there is no difference between covering the eyes and mouth and the entire face. It's INHALATION that's the clue.
Fortune
QUOTE (ThreeGee)
When it comes to an inhalation vector there is no difference between covering the eyes and mouth and the entire face.

Well, according to the rules, the difference is immunity vs. a +6 dice bonus (at best). wink.gif
ThreeGee
Yeppers, think this section of the rules needs a little tinkering...
Redjack
It should be noted that a gas mask does NOT filter biological agents, only chemical ones.

QUOTE
When it comes to an inhalation vector there is no difference between covering the eyes and mouth and the entire face. It's INHALATION that's the clue

The difference is in the filtration. Gas Masks typically use charcoal based filters where as a Respirator usually use significantly less effective filters.

EDIT: And you get hit by CS gas or tear gas or some of the others and see if the full face protection doesn't make a difference... nyahnyah.gif
ThreeGee
QUOTE
And you get hit by CS gas or tear gas or some of the others and see if the full face protection doesn't make a difference...


Under the RAW neither a Gas Mask or a Respirator protect against CS/Tear Gas as they have inhalation AND contact vectors. Masks and Respirators only apply to the inhalation part of that...
Simon May
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
3> During character generation, you purchase up your Magic Attribute and then your Magic attribute goes down from Essence loss. So to have a Magic of 5 and an Essence of 5, you have to buy a Magic of 6 (for 65 points) and then watch your reduced Essence drop it down to 5.

So this means that if you buy magic of 3 and have essence 6, then get your arm ripped off, dropping you to essence 4, your magic drops to 1?
Jrayjoker
QUOTE (Simon May)
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Nov 2 2007, 04:35 AM)
3> During character generation, you purchase up your Magic Attribute and then your Magic attribute goes down from Essence loss. So to have a Magic of 5 and an Essence of 5, you have to buy a Magic of 6 (for 65 points) and then watch your reduced Essence drop it down to 5.

So this means that if you buy magic of 3 and have essence 6, then get your arm ripped off, dropping you to essence 4, your magic drops to 1?

Yup, thats how I read it.
ThreeGee
Except that losing an arm is probably only worth 1 essence rather than 2, yep that's how it works.
WearzManySkins
QUOTE (Redjack)
It should be noted that a gas mask does NOT filter biological agents, only chemical ones.


@Redjack
Gas masks do filter the inhalation biological agents. Those in the military did, when I was serving.

WMS
Eleazar
In regard to question number 2. I believe veggiesama has made a quick reference sheet for the matrix, including page numbers. The sheets also have many other rules mechanics on them. Perfect for the beginning player or even the veteran that needs a quick rules clarification. If someone is familiar with the location of these sheets, could you post the link?

EDIT: After a search I located them. They are very handy.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=18083
Redjack
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Nov 2 2007, 11:46 AM)
QUOTE (Redjack @ Nov 2 2007, 09:09 AM)
It should be noted that a gas mask does NOT filter biological agents, only chemical ones.


@Redjack
Gas masks do filter the inhalation biological agents. Those in the military did, when I was serving.

WMS

Sorry, but you were misinformed. They do not.
I say this from experience as an NBC NCO.

-Redjack

EDIT: I do remember my training unit being surprised by this, but one thing got us even worse than the fact that MOP4 is useless against an airborne biological agent... The fact that while we can detect and identify 100% of all chemical agents, we can only detect a handful (of potentially millions?) of biological agents and treat/counter less than 5% of the known ones.
Thats reassuring!
Redjack
QUOTE (ThreeGee)
QUOTE
And you get hit by CS gas or tear gas or some of the others and see if the full face protection doesn't make a difference...


Under the RAW neither a Gas Mask or a Respirator protect against CS/Tear Gas as they have inhalation AND contact vectors. Masks and Respirators only apply to the inhalation part of that...

Technically there are an inhalant, but they will irritate the eyes.. Though that could be said that most chemical compounds will irritate the eyes... So there we are. wink.gif
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Redjack)
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Nov 2 2007, 11:46 AM)
QUOTE (Redjack @ Nov 2 2007, 09:09 AM)
It should be noted that a gas mask does NOT filter biological agents, only chemical ones.


@Redjack
Gas masks do filter the inhalation biological agents. Those in the military did, when I was serving.

WMS

Sorry, but you were misinformed. They do not.
I say this from experience as an NBC NCO.

-Redjack

Well, it's just a difference between "all" and "some". biggrin.gif
For example, if the "biological agent" in question is an old dude with tuberculosis standing next to you, the gas mask should filter any droplets he ejects just fine. wink.gif
Redjack
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
Well, it's just a difference between "all" and "some".  biggrin.gif
For example, if the "biological agent" in question is an old dude with tuberculosis standing next to you, the gas mask should filter any droplets he ejects just fine.  wink.gif

Hahahha.... I stand corrected. I meant truly airborne agents as opposed to airborne projectiles of biological agents. nyahnyah.gif
kzt
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
4> The same reason that you take a respirator over a gas mask today. A gas mask is a self-contained breathing apparatus. There's an actual tank of compressed air and you breathe only that. There's no chance of accidentally breathing poison gas, because you aren't breathing the outside air at all. However, it's uncomfortable, heavy, limited in duration, and not stylish at all. Yes, the protection from wearing and breathing from an O2 tank with no gas exchange with the outside world is more than simply wearing a mask - but seriously how many people do you see running around with dust masks? How many with SCUBA tanks?

You have it backwards, but then so do the Shadowrun rules. (What would SR be without developers who can't look up the meaning of words ? Offensive/defensive, velocity/rate of fire, magazine/clip, etc.)

A respirator is a superclass that includes all types of protection against inhaled gases, dusts, etc. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respirator. There are two classes, and SR4 provides two examples of filtering respirators.

A "gas mask" is a air purifying respirator that has filters against chemical agents. Exactly what agents it protects against depends on the filters. No air supply. This is what the "gas mask" in SR4 is. Oddly enough, it's also what the "respirator" in SR4 is.

An SCBA is a type of respirator that provides an air supply. This means it has a heavy tank full of air under very high pressure.

There are no examples of air supplying respirators in SR4 to date.

There may have been an intent to do so, but nothing made it to finished product. I have no idea why they provide two different bad examples of gas masks, as a properly fitted gas mask with the right filters provides total protection against inhaled gases.
Riley37
BBB p. 245: Gas Mask gives Immunity to inhalation toxins
BBB p. 327: Gas Mask gives +2 vs "gas substances"

Dammit Wizkids, make a choice and stick with it!

Gas Mask costs $100 and is at least as good as Respirator 2 which costs $200
Buy Respirator 1 or 2 only if you dislike wearing a gas mask for social/style reasons.
I would house-rule that goggles give +2 to resist the contact effect of CS and Pepper Punch, so the combo of goggles + Respirator 2 would give the same benefits as the p. 327 ruling on gas mask.

In Japan I've seen people dressed in suits wearing dust-type filters in public quite casually; I've heard that the usual reason is either "I have a cold and am trying not to spread it" or "I have asthma" or some such. But it ain't taboo. If American customs in Sixth World are influenced by Japanese culture, and/or by VITAS, then wearing a respirator is not an attention magnet.
Fortune
QUOTE (Riley37)
BBB p. 245: Gas Mask gives Immunity to inhalation toxins
BBB p. 327: Gas Mask gives +2 vs "gas substances"

Dammit Wizkids, make a choice and stick with it!

There are other 'gas substances' that are not considered 'Inhalation Toxins'. I would think that these are what the Gas Mask grants the +2 against.
Fortune
QUOTE (Riley37)
If American customs in Sixth World are influenced by Japanese culture, and/or by VITAS, then wearing a respirator is not an attention magnet.

Hell, not at all. Designer respirators have been all the rage for years down Aztlan way. biggrin.gif
ThreeGee
QUOTE
I have no idea why they provide two different bad examples of gas masks


Bad editing in the BBB again. The Toxin rules in SR have always been a bit odd, 4e just confused them a bit more.
Larsine
QUOTE (Simon May)
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Nov 2 2007, 04:35 AM)
3> During character generation, you purchase up your Magic Attribute and then your Magic attribute goes down from Essence loss. So to have a Magic of 5 and an Essence of 5, you have to buy a Magic of 6 (for 65 points) and then watch your reduced Essence drop it down to 5.

So this means that if you buy magic of 3 and have essence 6, then get your arm ripped off, dropping you to essence 4, your magic drops to 1?

Getting your arm ripped off doesn't decrease your essence, only when you replace it with something else will your essence decrease.

Lars
Ghost in the Machine
QUOTE (Eleazar)
In regard to question number 2. I believe veggiesama has made a quick reference sheet for the matrix, including page numbers. The sheets also have many other rules mechanics on them. Perfect for the beginning player or even the veteran that needs a quick rules clarification. If someone is familiar with the location of these sheets, could you post the link?

EDIT: After a search I located them. They are very handy.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=18083

Thanks! Those are incredibly useful!

-~GitM
WearzManySkins
@Redjack
TB they will, I do not recall now but maybe Anthrax, but then again the military regards there immunizations program as the first line of defense. biggrin.gif Damn still remember the effects of Yellow Fever cocktail immunizations.*shudders*

But in my gas mask the filters I changed out with much better ones, ie finer filters. But my mask was for ship board duty, so being hot was not generally an option. Most of the spaces I was manning had to be air conditioned, in one case to extreme levels.

Basically it depends upon how large the carrier particle/particles are.

I have to correct my NBC NCO, due to his inaccuracies regarding nerve agents and the history of same. He was saying that if you see drops of a nerve agent, use the Mark etc blotter paper to removed the nerve agent. I pointed out to him that the 3 nerve agents developed in WWII, if you could see a drop of it on you, you were dead,,your brain was not yet notified of the fact. Note I said drop not droplets. My routine for a chemical alarm hit the "chicken injector" first thing. But the first series of the "chicken injector" could inject into a concrete slab. biggrin.gif

But then my NBC/ABC education was way prior to my entry in the military, try middle school, I wrote a report/essay which my teacher did not care for at all, gave me a good grade but did not care for the subject matter, last time she let me have a wide open choice for essay/report subjects. biggrin.gif
Ghost in the Machine
Gas Masks vs Respirators

So, from what I'm gathering, you can either spend 100 nuyen.gif for perfect protection or up to 600 nuyen.gif for far less; there is no mechanical difference in SR4 between the two that would make the more expensive respirators preferable.

There are potential social or aesthetic reasons to choose a respirator over a gas mask. But then, in 2070, the opposite might well be true. I can definitely see gas mask fashion (particularly in the grunge-air cities like Seattle). I imagine that all the big fashion industries would put out lines of designer gas masks -- beware the etiquette faux pas of showing up to a high society gig in last year's model! You could also build in your choice of vision mods.

-~GitM
Jaid
in SR4, gas masks are what you wear when you're expecting someone to try to use poisonous gas attacks on you.

respirators are what you wear when you expect to encounter heavy pollution/smog.

and while some things may become fashionable, i have a hard time believing that gas masks will ever reach that point while the atmosphere is still breathable.

so if you're looking for inhalation vector toxin protection while you're just out and about, you wear a respirator. if drawing attention to yourself is what you want, then a gas mask is the choice for you. if you just don't expect to run into anyone (or if you're already screwed if you run into anyone) then a gas mask is the choice for you.

but if you're trying to walk around the city without drawing attention, you want a respirator.
Ghost in the Machine
Considering that respirators are so much more expensive yet so much less effective, I can easily imagine gas masks being a popular choice for anybody living in the city who is strapped for nuyen.gif or who has more pressing expenses. Which, honestly, would be a fair portion of the population. Gas masks would become a common sight on the streets during bad air days for the same reason Wal-Mart stays open -- people are cheap.

Once gas masks are worth no more than a raised eyebrow, then gas mask fashion can't be far behind.

And remember the insane cosmopolitan atmosphere of Seattle (particularly with the introduction of Augmentation). If you're walking around the city with fiber-optic hair cascading a rainbow of flowing colors, somehow I don't think your gas mask's going to be the "attention attracting" concern.

-~GitM
Fortune
I think covering your face in public in any paranoid society would be cause enough to attract attention.
Simon May
Looking at Asian cultures right now, many people in polluted areas such as Bangkok or Hong Kong actually do wear masks for breathing reasons. I don't see why anyone would think twice if businessmen, policemen, workers and schoolkids all wear masks outside.
Cain
QUOTE
6) Where are the rules for rounding?

Dunno off the top of my head, but they say: "Round normally".
Fortune
QUOTE (Simon May @ Nov 3 2007, 09:27 AM)
Looking at Asian cultures right now, many people in polluted areas such as Bangkok or Hong Kong actually do wear masks for breathing reasons.

I was referring to the full-face gas masks. See my comments earlier in the thread about fashionable respirators in society, which have been canon since the release of Aztlan, if not before.
Fortune
QUOTE (Cain)
QUOTE
6) Where are the rules for rounding?

Dunno off the top of my head, but they say: "Round normally".

In Shadowrun, rounding usually goes in favor of the PC, unless it specifically states otherwise.
Narse
Well, since everybody can hold their breath for at least 16 combat rounds, just cap the guy who through the gas grenade, then take your gas mask out of your bag and put it on. Oh, and you can make a swimming + willpower test to extend the period you can hold your breath for, your successes each add 1 combat turn, after that you just start taking stun at a rate of 1 per combat turn. So you should have plenty of time to get your unfashionable gas mask on. I mean has anyone ever been involved in SR4 combat that takes more than 18 combat turns?
DTFarstar
You still take the first dose, unless you have a turn to hold your breath before the gas goes off.

Chris
Buster
Regarding gas masks being shocking to wear in public: remember we're talking about 2070, not 2007. By 2070, crystal clear plastic could easily be as thin and clear as plastic Reynoldswrap and as strong as leather, so there's no need to wear those thick rubber hoods like the WWII gas masks. By 2070, a full hood gas mask could be no more shocking than a clear plastic bubble.
Fortune
People are still people, and are not going to carry around a full-face bubble when they can slip a respirator in their pocket that will do pretty much the exact same job. Keep in mind that we are not talking about defending against nerve gas attacks here ... merely a breathing aid for those extra smog-heavy days in Seattle.
Buster
True, and I'm thinking that's why respirators are more expensive than gas masks. Sophisticated people wear the expensive respirators up their noses, while the gutter trash wear the cheapo plastic bag gas masks over their heads. Wealthier people can ride in taxis, but the masses need a full plastic hood to keep the acid rain off while they wait for the bus.
Jaid
also, i disagree with the theory that people will buy the cheap gas mask instead of the expensive-but-fashionable respirator.

why, you ask? because i've lived in places where the average person lives in a trailer and owns a $30,000 truck, that's why =P
Mr. Croup
Gas Masks do have the advantage that, when you're on that high profile run, if you're already wearing one then it a) has you already prepared for any possible use of gas and b) it obscures your face so that it's hard to ID you. Assuming you're nice enough to leave witnesses breathing rather than just mearly beaten senseless.
Nikoli
True. I always have a respirator, even if a cheapo. Not for the gasses, but for the anonymity.
Narse
QUOTE (DTFarstar)
You still take the first dose, unless you have a turn to hold your breath before the gas goes off.

Chris

What makes you think that? I'm not saying your wrong, I just want to know if there is somewhere in the rules where it says you have to have an action to hold your breath or that holding your breath doesn't protect from inhalation vector atacks (but somehow an internal air tank does?). Oh and even if it requires an action, if you have several initiative passes you usually have an action before any given (non-airbursted) grenade goes off. I could understand from a balance perspective, but in that case I'd just make characters resist the contact vector that most gas clouds would also have.
DTFarstar
Never specifically said except in example text, which I know is usually a bad thing to go by, but I think it makes sense. If a grenade comes flying in and explodes before you can react you will probably take a lungful before you think to hold your breath and put on the mask. I might give players of more professionally trained characters a composure test to see if they inhale. Obviously if it land, you have a round, then it goes off, you can declare your breath holding then. I wouldn't say it take an action per se, but unless you are delaying a turn you can't interrupt things and you DO have to declare so you can time it. So, I would say as soon as you want to hold your breath and nothing is going on you can. However, in the "a grenade comes flying through the window spewing gas everywhere around and on you" I wouldn't let someone say "Psha, well I just hold my breath then DUH!" till they actually have a chance to react.

QUOTE (SR4 pb. 245)
Twitch is trapped in a cloud of CS/Tear Gas with
Power 6. Th e gas has a Speed of 1, which fortunately
gives him enough time to put on his gas mask. Th e mask
won’t protect him against the original lungful of gas
he took in,
however, so at the end of the following turn
he rolls a Toxin Resistance Test with a dice pool of 11
(Body 4, Chemical Protection 3, Toxin Extractor 4),
scoring 4 hits. Th is reduces the Power of the gas to 2 (6
– 4). Under the Eff ects listing for CS gas, it says that the
toxin infl icts Stun damage and nausea, so Twitch takes
2 boxes of Stun Damage and suff ers a nausea modifi er
of –1 for the next 20 Combat Turns.


Emphasis mine.

Chris
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012