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FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Ryu)
Using the spell rules analogy, I assumed the rating limits hits?

The program costs are not really essential to the rules mechanic (game balance only), but I´d care to know your ideas. @Frank: If you answered to that aspect I must have missed it, sorry.

Yes exactly. So for a lot of programs a Rating of 4 is pretty similar to a Rating of 6. If you aren't going to get more than X hits, having a program rating X+1 isn't helpful (exceptions: Crash and Biofeedback Filter). Armor adds its rating to soak tests because that's still not very much damage resistance.

QUOTE
I've already asked twice and have not gotten a response.


That's not exactly true. I've actually agreed to do a writeup of equipment and examples, but these don't just materialize out of nothing. The original document is twenty six thousand words. The examples won't be nearly as long or as snarky, but it'll probably be a few days yet before they are ready.

-Frank
deek
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
QUOTE (Ryu @ Nov 8 2007, 07:07 AM)
Using the spell rules analogy, I assumed the rating limits hits?

The program costs are not really essential to the rules mechanic (game balance only), but I´d care to know your ideas. @Frank: If you answered to that aspect I must have missed it, sorry.

Yes exactly. So for a lot of programs a Rating of 4 is pretty similar to a Rating of 6. If you aren't going to get more than X hits, having a program rating X+1 isn't helpful (exceptions: Crash and Biofeedback Filter). Armor adds its rating to soak tests because that's still not very much damage resistance.

QUOTE
I've already asked twice and have not gotten a response.


That's not exactly true. I've actually agreed to do a writeup of equipment and examples, but these don't just materialize out of nothing. The original document is twenty six thousand words. The examples won't be nearly as long or as snarky, but it'll probably be a few days yet before they are ready.

-Frank

Fair enough...I realize they don't materialize out of nothing, I guess I just missed your confirmation.

And yes, you have a lot of words there. I dropped your posts into latex and formatted some stuff to create a printed PDF...58 pages...so it is a large work:)
Ryu
Can I have that PDF deek? PLEASE PRETTY PLEASE
deek
Its at work, and I am at home until next Monday. I thought Frank mentioned he would put something together, but if he is okay with me posting a link to the PDF I created, I could do that...I don't want to infringe on anything...
Cheops
QUOTE (Simon May)
Man, nothing is as bad as getting a raunchy personal ad with your work number posted in the papers. Ask Richard Gill.

Sweet... biggrin.gif
FrankTrollman
If peop want to print it p, transfer it to word or make pdfs, I won't stop them. It's posted free to a message board, do what you like with it.

-Frank
Seven-7
I'm already in the works of making a very pretty version, complete with pictures and stuff.

Having talked with AdamJury here's what I did learn, and want to warn about:

While you can use your own copy and screw with it as you wish, including taking franks stuff and plugging it in, you can NOT give that out, free or not, because the 'dress' of the page is a part of whoever owns SR.

Now, if you were to get entirely new layout, new pictures, ect, I believe that is ok.
Gelare
Dude, you're making one with pictures and stuff? Cool. Post that once you're done, eh?

Edit: Hey Frank, question. I feel like the other thread on Nash Equilibria is like the blind leading the blind, so I'm trying to get some clarification on how your rules work. You say that the human brain can be hooked up to a PAN at any time, yada yada. I don't understand what this means and what ramifications it has.

You have FastJack standing on one side of the room, with whatever equipment he wants. On the other side of the room you have Mr. Orphan, who has no technology whatsoever, no commlink, no datajack, no nanopaste trodes, and clothes dating back from the Victorian era (no RFID tags).

1) Can FastJack use Black Hammer on Mr. Orphan?
2) Can FastJack subscribe Mr. Orphan to a PAN? How? Where is the device on which the PAN is running? How does it communicate with Mr. Orphan's brain? How does it know what Mr. Orphan's brain is saying back?
3) If FastJack can subscribe Mr. Orphan to a PAN, what options are now open to FastJack for messing with Mr. Orphan's brain that weren't there before?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
Hey Frank, question. I feel like the other thread on Nash Equilibria is like the blind leading the blind

It is indeed operating within expected parameters. The whole "brainhacking" discussion was obviously going nowhere as it revolved around a number of people making distinctly different assumptions than I was and then arguing at cross purposes. I pushed it all into the other thread in order to keep this thread relatively uncluttered. Success!

QUOTE
1) Can FastJack use Black Hammer on Mr. Orphan?


Absolutely. Blackhammer itself is a Signal Range program, so you can focus it in on a biological entity and target them so long as you meet range (and in this case, LOS) requirements.

QUOTE
2) Can FastJack subscribe Mr. Orphan to a PAN?


This requires more effort, but yes:

QUOTE
How? Where is the device on which the PAN is running? How does it communicate with Mr. Orphan's brain? How does it know what Mr. Orphan's brain is saying back?


Starting up a PAN is handshake range with each device in the prospective network. The human brain is normally Signal 0, which means that its handshake range is only 3 meters at the maximum. This is what normally allows you to start aa network by slapping synthskin on a Troll's feet and running that through a signal booster to connect to other devices. But it also allows Fastjack to start a connection up if he's across a small room - or even a large room if he can get a repeater to within 3 meters of the target.

Not every device has to be within Handshake Range of every other device, bt every device has to be able to trace route through devices which are within handshake range to every other device.

QUOTE
3) If FastJack can subscribe Mr. Orphan to a PAN, what options are now open to FastJack for messing with Mr. Orphan's brain that weren't there before?


The most obvious is ASIST. Fastjack has the controls and he can toggle VR for the unfortunate target. Pretty much incapacitates the victim as well as providing a -6 penalty on perception tests. The victim is also in connection range with the Firewall, which means that Fastjack can now walk away while the IC on the network plays merry hell with Mr. Orphan.

This is how BTL prisons work. The victims are each put into a PAN that continually hits them with Connection Range shenanigans. I didn't write up a whole lot of stuff that works on this principle (the only one in the basic writeup is "Jingle") - but if you want you can go through old SR material to find other things that are possible at this point. "Tempest" hits the victim with additional penalties as they are bombarded with abrasive static in all sensory fields; "Despair" is functionally about the same but operates by playing continual mood tracks of apathy and depression; "Wrack" sends in painful and damaging stimuli that physically and emotionally destroy a person; "Dreamscape" keeps someone on ice by inducing sleep.

I didn't really feel like cluttering the main post with those things, because traditionally the BTL prisons and the programs which run on them have been firmly in the realm of story effects and hand-waving.

-Frank
Ryu
@Seven-7: I do not get the point. You make a pretty version, I can (hopefully) download it. I may print that, but may not even show it to the rest of my group?

QUOTE (Frank)
It is indeed operating within expected parameters. The whole "brainhacking" discussion was obviously going nowhere as it revolved around a number of people making distinctly different assumptions than I was and then arguing at cross purposes. I pushed it all into the other thread in order to keep this thread relatively uncluttered.


Indeed, on multiple accounts. When I suggested that route, discussing basic assumptions was the main interest, but this thread should be about rules.


Speaking of those, I have another question, this time regarding servers. I assume from their role that they basically are to corporate WANS what a comlink is to a PAN? So despite real processing power being the dominion of terminals, they provide security to their net?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
Speaking of those, I have another question, this time regarding servers. I assume from their role that they basically are to corporate WANS what a comlink is to a PAN? So despite real processing power being the dominion of terminals, they provide security to their net?


Pretty much. A Server is a device, so it can have a dedicated Firewall on it, which means that it can have large numbers without obviating the rest of the setting.

-Frank
WeaverMount
Frank, this is top notch work in first (public) draft. I strongly encourage you punch it up into a document that people who get brain hacking can glue on top the Wireless World section of their BBBs. I want to try running these rule and have an opportunity to do so, but there are still a couple of thinks I need to feel better about first

1) I had a hard time figuring out how your mechanics for an automating system verifying a fact. Could you post a trivially simple example of what you intended?

On the subject of Veracity, does contradictory stack or cancel? 5 years ago, did both the statements "Humans are causing global warming" and "Humans are not causing global warming" had a veracity of 4 or 5? Alternately, would they cancel out and only one statement prevail because it was slightly more common/reputable? for a more S4ish example what happens if you have 2 fake SINs in the same system tied to your biometrics and the system is ask "who's figure prints are these?". Also I feel that no matter how many blog entries you have saying SIN ????-????-????-???? belongs to John Doe, I just don't see Lone Star buying it if it can be verified in more trusted data stores.
At the moment I'm inclined to another house I found here where the rating of a scanner is really just security of data basic it can access, and how long the validation takes.

2) About the brain hacking bit, would something like faraday suit or faraday Bone lacing still put the kibosh brain hacking? Could you also just run your data cable out side the protection and have you com-like out there and maintain full connectivity while still segregating your physical brain?

3) Adept Hackers get way scary. An Adept could easily have 18 dice on an attack roll anywhere on the planet. And unlike a force 12 spell covering your tracks is way to easy.

4) point 3 kind leads to a more general balance impress. Hackers as you present them are way to flexible While there is /A/ mage that can do damm near anything no one mage can do everything. You can easily build a character with on 400 BP with a 3 skills at 3 and 2 skills at 5. Factor in a few bonus dice from magic or ware combined with your hacking on the fly and your hackers can do everything. Hacking on the fly is totally necessary in some form. I hated that having to hack meant shelling out about 36k for a every program, but feel you went a little to far in the other direction. I really like what your hackers do, but I'm learly of how well they do it in general.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
1) I had a hard time figuring out how your mechanics for an automating system verifying a fact. Could you post a trivially simple example of what you intended?


Sure.

The Fake ID
[ Spoiler ]



QUOTE
On the subject of Veracity, does contradictory stack or cancel?


Yes, but not linearly. A piece of information mentioned in enough blogs will eventually become the #1 hit on Google, and then it will get mentioned as a fact in print sources and so on and so forth. I purposefully leave it vague as to exactly how hard it is to move truths up or down. It's hard (though not impossible) to convince the world that the Normans invaded Britain in 1065 or 1067. But changing many facts may require entire adventres.

QUOTE
for a more S4ish example what happens if you have 2 fake SINs in the same system tied to your biometrics and the system is ask "who's figure prints are these?".


Most of the time they'd pull up one or the other first. Simply roll the veracity of each fingerprint and whichever gets a bigger result is the "truth". More in-depth systems will pull up all available fingerprint matches and near matches and compare - which will doubtlessly be interesting reading for a metahman detective.

QUOTE
About the brain hacking bit, would something like faraday suit or faraday Bone lacing still put the kibosh brain hacking? Could you also just run your data cable out side the protection and have you com-like out there and maintain full connectivity while still segregating your physical brain?


Potentially. Though of course the moment the data cable to running out of your Faraday suit your network is hackable again.

-Frank
Gelare
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Nov 9 2007, 06:02 AM)
It is indeed operating within expected parameters. The whole "brainhacking" discussion was obviously going nowhere as it revolved around a number of people making distinctly different assumptions than I was and then arguing at cross purposes. I pushed it all into the other thread in order to keep this thread relatively uncluttered. Success!

rotfl.gif
Thanks for the answers. Another clarification, if I may: what is, say, Ares' Macrotech's Public Access Terminal? Is it a box sitting in a room? Or is it some poor sap standing in a room with a commlink strapped to his head? If it's a box, how does it have the power to run IC and stuff, in your "the brain matters" model? If it's a person, well...the question seems obvious...
WeaverMount
QUOTE
Potentially. Though of course the moment the data cable to running out of your Faraday suit your network is hackable again.


Yes the network is hackable, and if a hacker got into they could start brain frying. But since no high density signals are hitting the brain except from the data cable would a hacker have to gain access to the cable rather than just point and fry per usual.
Ryu
I do think the matrix damage of Black Hammer has to be adjusted. Right now, a competent hacker can throw the equivalent of deadly powerbolts without suffering drain:

With logic 6(9)+ Cybercombat an easy starting hacker can have 3 net successes over a target with even firewall 6. And thats not even including better gear. Now the target suffers Blackhammer rating + 3 boxes of damage and has to soak with willpower. No drain, 4 IPs per round. No astral signature left, no weapon to dispose of.
WeaverMount
My thoughts exactly. I like the principals, but think it needs a miner nerf. I like hackers being virtually untraceable ghost stalkers, but they should have to pay for the privalage somehow, either with BP or reduced efficacy.
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (Ryu @ Nov 9 2007, 05:27 PM)
I do think the matrix damage of Black Hammer has to be adjusted. Right now, a competent hacker can throw the equivalent of deadly powerbolts without suffering drain:

With logic 6(9)+ Cybercombat an easy starting hacker can have 3 net successes over a target with even firewall 6. And thats not even including better gear. Now the target suffers Blackhammer rating + 3 boxes of damage and has to soak with willpower. No drain, 4 IPs per round. No astral signature left, no weapon to dispose of.


But every team is going to have signal defense too, it's about as essential as counterspelling, and if you don't have a hacker, jamming becomes really very important.

But as signal defense is also really easy to get (under these rules everyone has 1 point of in the hacking skill group because I think you'd be mad not too), an individual has 4 dice of signal defense to go with that firewall.

Now a logic 6(9) hacker is a top notch combatant so lets assume he's not trying to set joe average on fire, but he's targetting a Ares security team member.

Well, everyone in the security team is going to be signal defending everyone else, and so you have team members + 3? guys all contributing signal defense.

Edit: If they don't have a hacker, they will also have a jammer giving them a rating 1 or 2 static zone too - it won't interfere with their tactical radios over combat level distances.

I assume thats supposed to be the standard defense methadology in 2071 for security teams.

So hitting part of that areas
Red
What happens if somebody invented a cyberskin mod that makes the entire body an EM insulator? Like the wi-fi blocking paint, or faraday cage mesh?

NVM, question was already answered.
FrankTrollman
Very basically, Black Hammer is already the weakest primary attack in the game.
    It's a Complex Action. This straight away makes it less impressive than a Rifle.

    Mana Bolt is resisted by Willpower + Spell Defense. The damage is not soaked at all, and the drain is actually mild enough that I no longer remember the last time I saw a player character throw a Manabolt with a Force of 6 or less.

    Black Hammer is resisted by Firewall + Signal Defense. The damage is soaked by Willpower + Redundant Biofeedback Filters.

Yes, a Hacker can get 4 IPs. Yes, a Magician can get 4 IPs as well. As can a sniper.

A dedicated super hacker can roll a lot of dice. 6 (skill) + 2 (specialization) + 8 (attribute) - that's 16 dice. That's a really big Black Hammer. Of course, the Hacker actually wants the whole Cracking Group and frankly the number of Magicians who care about Ritual Spellcasting is pretty low (basically just people who intend to pick up Geomancy or Linking metamagics, the skill is essentially worthless on its own). A Magician can have 6 (skill) + 2 (specialization) + 6 (attribute) + 2 (Power Focus) + 2 (Mentor Bonus) - that's 18 dice as a starting character. Sure, the Hacker will eventually be able to get himself a rating 3 Cerebral Booster, but of course the Mage isn't capped at all.

Yes, Black Hammer is pretty scary. But it's literally the least of your problems in the triad of Manabolt/Rugerbolt/Hammerbolt.

-Frank
Ryu
Mana Bolt is a balance problem, not something one should emulate.

The rules for signal defence provide an incentive for everyone to learn electronic warfare. Thats a buckload of dice rolling each round. Undesireable. Remember, everyone can be a hacker, but few can be a mage.

Proposed mechanics changes:
- signal defense may not use the teamwork rules. layered protection uses the best result

- Black Hammer should be range© and do only (rating) damage if the attack is successful. The NBH faction also demands an active VR connection (which of course the hacker can turn on once "inside" the PAN IF it is installed.
Red
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Nov 10 2007, 03:58 AM)
Yes, Black Hammer is pretty scary. But it's literally the least of your problems in the triad of Manabolt/Rugerbolt/Hammerbolt.


Black Hammer requires a commlink, which is invisible in this scenario as they are everywhere. You can take it anywhere. It has infinite ammo. And once you get one copy, you can give it to your whole team. Finally it leaves no physical evidence, only digital evidence.

These are fantastic boons that shouldn't be ignored versus guns, magic, etc...
Buster
QUOTE (Ryu)
The rules for signal defence provide an incentive for everyone to learn electronic warfare. Thats a buckload of dice rolling each round. Undesireable. Remember, everyone can be a hacker, but few can be a mage.

The apparent overpoweredness (if that is a word) of Black Hammer can be mitigated by making it very expensive in terms of nuyen and time to construct. If you have a rule that says that psychotropic programs like Black Hammer and the brain hacking programs cost something like 10 times the cost and programing time of normal hacking programs, then the world evens out. Or on the other end of the arms race, you could instead lower the cost of firewalls and signal defense programs so everyone tends to buy expensive defensive programs, which lowers the damage capability of BH.

For example, every street punk with a cheap gun can shoot someone in the chest and in 2070 they do so quite frequently, so everyone in 2070 has at least some fairly cheap body armor. But it's rare that people walk around with armor that can stop a Panther shell, because Panther cannons are expensive and rare.

So if psychotropic programs cost tons of nuyen and time to buy or build, the chance is lower that a particular target will bother with psychotropic defense. In game terms, only people paranoid enough to wear Panther cannon armor will have high levels of psychotropic defense.
Buster
QUOTE (Red @ Nov 10 2007, 09:56 AM)
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Nov 10 2007, 03:58 AM)
Yes, Black Hammer is pretty scary. But it's literally the least of your problems in the triad of Manabolt/Rugerbolt/Hammerbolt.


Black Hammer requires a commlink, which is invisible in this scenario as they are everywhere. You can take it anywhere. It has infinite ammo. And once you get one copy, you can give it to your whole team. Finally it leaves no physical evidence, only digital evidence.

These are fantastic boons that shouldn't be ignored versus guns, magic, etc...

Good point about it getting copied to the whole team, you can't do that with spells or guns. Even if BH is a very expensive program, the whole team will get a free copy.

Since a datajack/commlink is essentially invisible (everyone has one) and there's no way to detect a BH program on the device without hacking it, and the skills+attributes cost are much lower than learning magic spells, psychotropic weapons are far superior spells or guns.
Seven-7
QUOTE (Gelare)
Dude, you're making one with pictures and stuff? Cool. Post that once you're done, eh?

Edit: Hey Frank, question. I feel like the other thread on Nash Equilibria is like the blind leading the blind, so I'm trying to get some clarification on how your rules work. You say that the human brain can be hooked up to a PAN at any time, yada yada. I don't understand what this means and what ramifications it has.

You have FastJack standing on one side of the room, with whatever equipment he wants. On the other side of the room you have Mr. Orphan, who has no technology whatsoever, no commlink, no datajack, no nanopaste trodes, and clothes dating back from the Victorian era (no RFID tags).

1) Can FastJack use Black Hammer on Mr. Orphan?
2) Can FastJack subscribe Mr. Orphan to a PAN? How? Where is the device on which the PAN is running? How does it communicate with Mr. Orphan's brain? How does it know what Mr. Orphan's brain is saying back?
3) If FastJack can subscribe Mr. Orphan to a PAN, what options are now open to FastJack for messing with Mr. Orphan's brain that weren't there before?

Yep, I just need to get CS3 up and running on my old omega 8 gig harddrive. From there it's adding a fading effect to some images, some layering work, then I'll take it to Foxit's PDF Editor, and BAM.
Seven-7
QUOTE (Buster)
QUOTE (Red @ Nov 10 2007, 09:56 AM)
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Nov 10 2007, 03:58 AM)
Yes, Black Hammer is pretty scary. But it's literally the least of your problems in the triad of Manabolt/Rugerbolt/Hammerbolt.


Black Hammer requires a commlink, which is invisible in this scenario as they are everywhere. You can take it anywhere. It has infinite ammo. And once you get one copy, you can give it to your whole team. Finally it leaves no physical evidence, only digital evidence.

These are fantastic boons that shouldn't be ignored versus guns, magic, etc...

Good point about it getting copied to the whole team, you can't do that with spells or guns. Even if BH is a very expensive program, the whole team will get a free copy.

Since a datajack/commlink is essentially invisible (everyone has one) and there's no way to detect a BH program on the device without hacking it, and the skills+attributes cost are much lower than learning magic spells, psychotropic weapons are far superior spells or guns.

Old SR3 matrix had it that everything you did was on the Host's dumplog. Did this disappear in SR4? And where is this at?
Cheops
The data log is still alive and kicking in SR4 so if you BH a guy his commlink and whatever node you happen to do it on will register your Access ID in their logs unless you go and edit the logs (except you can't on the guy you just dumped).

Also you can't BH a guy in AR because all it does is dump his persona (which only takes a complex action to refresh). He'd have to be in VR for this to work and odds are he isn't in VR in the middle of a firefight.
Crusher Bob
A bit late to the party, it appears.

Some things that may be worth adding:

The computer skills listed are not needed for computer literacy. Everyone in 2070 (without the computer illiteracy flaw) knows how to do simple tasks with computers. What the computer skills actually represent is actual alterations in your brain that make it interface with devices better. While creating these brain structures (via surgery) is theoretically possible, there have been no confirmed successes. This means that computer skills cannot be chipped. This is also why there are not roving gangs of brain snatchers wandering the streets looking for their next processor upgrade. (But here's plenty of story room for toxic technomacers that want to eat your brain meat to bootstrap their own to then next level.)

Should Jedi be changed to B & D so that you can is can work on cops asking for your ID as well? Or should that version be a form, rather than a program? Or will the taxman program do this already?

How well are the brains of animals mapped? Can a hacker black hammer guard dogs? guard crocodiles? Mages who are shape-changed into crocodiles? If dog brain are hackable, are there any odd techs drones with actual dog brains in them? Heck no one is going to miss all those third world babies anyway...

Should the balance between hackers and technomancers be similar to the balance between sams and adepts? If so, what are the strengths of one vs the other?

What are the limits of brain hacking (similar to: magic cannot teleport, etc)? Is is supposed to be largely limited to more 'gross' and real-time effects such as black hammer, or can you reprogram some poor fashion model to kill the Prime Minister of Malaysia? Note that a control thoughts spell would be visible to astral security, while a brain hacker person might not be (does your aura change when you are ghost hacked?)

Added flavour bit stolen from GiTS: getting your headware worked on basically requires you and the doctor to be inside a faraday cage, to prevent hackers from screwing with you when your brainware is turned off. Normally, an outside witness (next of kin, etc) should be watching the procedure to be sure the doctor isn't doing anything he shouldn't be doing. Of course, how much do you trust your doctor? In fact how much do you trust your friend, Bob, who is monitoring the procedure when you are out? What if your trust for Bob is an implanted memory, a setup for a real screw job down the road?

Should there be tinfoil hats available, that still allow you for opt out of the matrix? For example, a cyber-skull with the faraday cage add on? Makes those mnemonic couriers easy to ID, look for the guy with the big metal head.

What are the defensive steps to take when under attack by a hacker, when you don't have one of your own? Jamming to reduce signal range, href guns to fry drones equipment before the come to get you?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
The computer skills listed are not needed for computer literacy. Everyone in 2070 (without the computer illiteracy flaw) knows how to do simple tasks with computers. What the computer skills actually represent is actual alterations in your brain that make it interface with devices better. While creating these brain structures (via surgery) is theoretically possible, there have been no confirmed successes. This means that computer skills cannot be chipped.


That's a great explanation, and a very decent rule modification. To be honest, I've always been highly leery of skill chips for any technical skills. While the idea of allowing a skill chip to take over social interaction for you (making you live your life like Monkey Island or Fallout I guess) is entertaining, it is technical chips which seem to undermine the place humanity has in the world more than anything. After all, one of our largest complaints about script kiddyism is that if the entire dicepool is just purchasable material talking to itself that corps don't really need Shadowrunners.

I'll definitely put more thought into this, would you mind something similar being incorporated into the original document?

QUOTE
Should Jedi be changed to B & D so that you can is can work on cops asking for your ID as well? Or should that version be a form, rather than a program? Or will the taxman program do this already?


Generally speaking the cop is going to ask for your digital ID and then there will be a device that has a data request, which you can then trick in any of a number of ways. But having a B program which specifically makes someone think that something just happened while they weren't paying attention (like the Flash from MIB) could be pretty cool.

QUOTE
How well are the brains of animals mapped? Can a hacker black hammer guard dogs? guard crocodiles? Mages who are shape-changed into crocodiles? If dog brain are hackable, are there any odd techs drones with actual dog brains in them? Heck no one is going to miss all those third world babies anyway...


Less well than humans certainly. Dealing with non-human brains gives your system a penalty of probably somewhere between -2 and -6. Dragons are confirmed to be hackable with sufficiently powerful forms, but I would say that it should be very hard.

QUOTE
Should the balance between hackers and technomancers be similar to the balance between sams and adepts? If so, what are the strengths of one vs the other?


The Strength of the Technomancer is they get real ultimate power, flip out and kick people in the virtual face. They get Sprites, the get special Forms, they can run around "in" the Matrix without having to get access to anything. Unfortunately, while they can spoof automated defenses just by ignoring them most of the time, they can't do the same to actual hackers. A technomancer is terribly vulnerable to getting ganged up on because he is already at the closest range with any opponent. Further, a technomancer is extremely vulnerable to Background. While a Hacker experiences mere signal range reduction in a static zone, a technomancer gets cut off from the Deep Resonance and actually has her Resonance go down.

So Technomancers are better against the unprepared. Their powers allow them to simply circumvent many of the devices in use to hinder Hackers. But Hackers are probably better in a virtual fight.

QUOTE
What are the limits of brain hacking (similar to: magic cannot teleport, etc)? Is is supposed to be largely limited to more 'gross' and real-time effects such as black hammer, or can you reprogram some poor fashion model to kill the Prime Minister of Malaysia? Note that a control thoughts spell would be visible to astral security, while a brain hacker person might not be (does your aura change when you are ghost hacked?)


The game world contains Dreamchips (Dreamchipper), Deus Transfigurement (Brainscan), Psychotropic IC (Matrix, Psychotrope), and BTL Brainwashing (SotA). But all of these systems take a long time or are limited in scope.

Magic like Control Thoughts is extremely fast (rquiring one complex action and one simple action), but it is also extremely short lived (even an amazingly well cast Control Thoughts on a willpower 1 dupe would be lucky to last 75 seconds). Magic like Influence is instantaneous (meaning that its effects are essentially permanent), but its effects are generally limited to one action or rationalization in the immediate term. Magic like Compulsion is just off the hook crazy awesome where you can permanently make people do or believe whatever you want - but Compulsion is NPC only. Heck, it's so rare they forgot to give it to any of the critters in the critter section (not even the Wendigo, for whom it has always been the signature power).

Practically speaking, the in-combat brain hacking is pretty much limited to mimicry of Influence - which is where Jingle stands. Out of combat it has been confirmed that you can brainwash people with BTL systems over a long period to remember, believe, or do pretty much anything. But the rules on that have always been a little hand-wavy, and I don't really see the need to get all that excited about specific rules right now.

QUOTE
Added flavour bit stolen from GiTS: getting your headware worked on basically requires you and the doctor to be inside a faraday cage, to prevent hackers from screwing with you when your brainware is turned off. Normally, an outside witness (next of kin, etc) should be watching the procedure to be sure the doctor isn't doing anything he shouldn't be doing. Of course, how much do you trust your doctor? In fact how much do you trust your friend, Bob, who is monitoring the procedure when you are out? What if your trust for Bob is an implanted memory, a setup for a real screw job down the road?


That's good security advice, but we already know people don't follow it. People get their datajacks done in mini-malls while the doctor is telepresencing in from the Irkutsk Peninsula. I don't think that you really can make the event hacker proof once you're doing that.

QUOTE
Should there be tinfoil hats available, that still allow you for opt out of the matrix? For example, a cyber-skull with the faraday cage add on? Makes those mnemonic couriers easy to ID, look for the guy with the big metal head.


Yes and no. Not Tinfoil specifically, as tinfoil actually amplifies incoming signals. But surrounding yourself with various materials has a dampening effect on Matrix activities. Game mechanically they reduce the effective signal of incoming Matrix devices. So if you have a lead shield on a hostil hacker would have to get much closer to actually affect you with anything signal or handshake ranged. If you had a superconductive coil around yourself, the effective range would be reduced even more. Very roughly, 2 Signal is ten times as far, so even a modest reduction in incoming signal makes for a large reduction in effective hacking range. When I get the time to rewrite the equipment section, I'll put in more exact examples.

QUOTE
What are the defensive steps to take when under attack by a hacker, when you don't have one of your own? Jamming to reduce signal range, href guns to fry drones equipment before the come to get you?


Yes. Also move to cover as most of the scarier attacks require line of sight to the target. But indeed unlike being attacked by a magician who hovers in the astral and sends a conga line of unbound spirits to wear you down, you can actually do something about the hacker. If you can cut the signal range so that he is no longer connected to whatever he's attacking you with, the attack is over. If he's coming through an intermediate system you can shut it off (possibly with a bullet), and if he's not then you can fight back directly because he's right over there.

-Frank
Catharz Godfoot
Am I correct in assuming that programs no longer have ratings? If so, what are some good prices?

Also, will a sim module be effective for emulating vision, audio, taste, etc links when not in full VR?
deek
That's an incorrect assumption. Reading the program descriptions, some of them refer to ratings...others do not. Frank reminded me that he was working on outstanding questions that I have already asked, this being one of them...
Ryu
No, that question was answered. Program ratings limit hits, see spell mechanic.
Catharz Godfoot
Thanks.
Crusher Bob
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Nov 14 2007, 04:57 PM)

I'll definitely put more thought into this, would you mind something similar being incorporated into the original document?

Go right ahead.

Mostly I was asking those questions so that you'd expose more design knobs on your system. So that If I wanted to change something, I'd know the what and why or the design process before I started to monkey around with something.

For example, something I'd be tempted to do would be to remove technomancers, but allow anyone to get grades of submersion. So that your hackers can get strange matrix related powers. This prevents hackers from being an advancement dead end. This also lets hackers be differentiated by the 'hacking meta-magics' that they choose, so that all 300 karma hacker will not have all hacking skills at 6 and perform basically exactly the same.

[edit]
Using the characters from GiTs: SAC as examples:

The Major has the 'whispers from her ghost' echo, making it much more difficult to brain hack her. She later gains the 'through a glass darkly' echo allowing her to have multiple simultaneous matrix presences at once.

Ishikawa has echos related to aquiring information

The Laughing Man has various brain hacking related echos (notably, one allowing him
to brain hack many people at once, at opposed to one at a time).

Kuze does, whatever that thing that he does.

They can all be hackers with 6s in the hacking skills, but they are still quite different in what they can do.
[/edit]


Buster
QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
For example, something I'd be tempted to do would be to remove technomancers, but allow anyone to get grades of submersion. So that your hackers can get strange matrix related powers. This prevents hackers from being an advancement dead end. This also lets hackers be differentiated by the 'hacking meta-magics' that they choose, so that all 300 karma hacker will not have all hacking skills at 6 and perform basically exactly the same.

That's a cool idea, but in SR all superhero stuff is reserved for Adepts. So for exotic superhero hackers, you'll need a technomancer. Otherwise cybersams will want to buy powerpoints and adepts and mages will want their BP back. I'd be happy with "everyone is magic" version of SR, but just be aware that cascade design changes are involved.
Ryu
That could make for an interesting take on technomancers. Mundane hackers + extras.

One could amp up Encryption to threshold for decryption = Encryption rating, still NOT an extended test. TMs could get the option (via immersion) of making this an opposed test again.
FrankTrollman
Actually, I think I would like the setting better if basically anyone who wanted to be could be a technomancer. But I'm writing with the intent to salvage as much of 4th editions backstory and mechanics as possible. One of the goals I think I've achieved here is the ability to pretty much replicate all the big events of the storyline without hand waving.

So quite circularly, Technomancers are in and distinct in what they can do from normal hackers because they are like that in the story.

-Frank
FrankTrollman
News

I put in an equipment section of sorts. It's at the bottom of the rules. I'm also working on Examples, what all do people want examples of?

In other news, I'm going to be running a game using these rules:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=19741

-Frank
Zak
Impressive piece of work.
I like the streamlining to the general rules. Definatly going to talk this over with my group once we start the next campaign.

I doubt the direct attacks will make it into our game, but apart from that it promises to be easier to handle than the current ruleset.
Crusher Bob
The extra advantage of any (mundane) can submerge is that is keeps adepts from being the best hackers. An adept can get bonus dice to do everyday tasks, but all of the really cool hacker tricks require submersion, which you can't get as a mage.

--------

Looking at the equipment rules:

Poor man on the street has a system 2, signal 2 (100m), OS 2, firewall 2 commlink costing him 700Y. (resists brain hacking with 5 dice)

Middle lifestyle man on the street has system 3, signal 3 (400m), OS 3, firewall 3 commlink costing him 1600Y (resists brain hacking with 6 dice)

High lifestyle guy on the street has system 4, signal 4 (1km), OS 4, Firewall 4 costing 5000Y (resists brain hacking with 7 dice)

being a paranoid git, he might be running a redundant biofeedback filter with rating 4, costing him another 2,000Y (brain hacking resistance goes up to 11 dice)

---------

A PC who is not a hacker but has plenty of money has a system 5, signal ?, OS 5, firewall 5 commlink for at least 11,000 Y

He throws on a rating 5 (2500Y) biofeedback filter and he gets willpower +10 vs brainhacking.

---------------

A PC hacker has an system 5, signal 5, OS 5, firewall 5 commlink (12,000Y)
He has the programs he wants at rating 6

If he wants to, he can go into hot sim for response +2 on his commlink and rely on his signal defense vs brain hacking. This raises his system response to 7, letting him run his programs at their full rating, and letting him run 7? programs at once. I assume he then couldn't fire up a redundant biofeedback filter program at rating 6.

---------------

If I read this right, the PC hacker running in hotsim mode has 7 matrix actions a turn? (Response =7). Should this be cut down? Something like 1 + (system /2) or (system /3) ? Being able to blackhammer your Mom 7 times in three seconds seems a bit over the top. Expecially if you make an adept hacker specializing in blackhammering peoples Moms.
Crusher Bob
Possibly interesting bits in the style of Being Poor

Being poor is having nothing to eat this week becuase you had to buy that 200Y pair of shoes.

Being poor is waking up one morning and discovering that you think it's a wonderful idea to sell your kids to that ghoul in the 10,000Y suit.

Being poor is prostituting yourself to pay for another months electricity to run the jammer in your house, because no matter how bad selling your body it, giving away your mind is worse.

Being poor is is staying awake, because all your dreams would be about new and exciting ways to get the stains out of your laundry.

Being poor is finding yourself being unable to drink anything but Nuka-Cola.

Being poor is not being able to let your children go out and play because their comm-links have broken and you can't afford to replace them.

Being poor is knowing the details of contructing a Faraday cage out of chiken wire and knowing how to mathematically model the dead signal zones in an area, but still not knowing how to read.

Being poor is holding that heavy duffel bag for your best friend Fastjack, until he comes around and asks you for it.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
If I read this right, the PC hacker running in hotsim mode has 7 matrix actions a turn? (Response =7).


An important note is that the these are 7 actions per initiative pass. But an equally important note is that these are free actions. You still only get 2 Simples or 1 Complex.

This means that you can send email, change what status reports you're looking at, and so on. But Blackhammer is still a Complex Action, you do it once.

-Frank
Crusher Bob
So can you still limp out (go full VR) for the +2 IP? Are hackers supposed to get Wired reflexes for more IP? Or will everyone be limited to one full matrix action a turn?

-----

Does the stuff I posted in 'being poor' fit with how you envision the system working? It would seem to be the poorest who would opt out of the matrix, since they are the ones most vulnerable to it. The ironic thing is that there are plenty of esentially free matrix services that would benefit the poor most (education, news, etc) but if they expose themselves in an attempt to better their situation, some advert hacker will eventually come along an jingle them. (assuming an advert hacket has skill 3, logic 3, and an appropriate specialization, he's one hit over the smaple poor man on the street).

I'm assuming that there are reasonably skilled brainjackers who spend time jingling poor folks to buy useless consumer goods.

In addition, I'd assume that there are all sorts of horror stories (at least some of them true) about brain-jackers, just like the stories about mind-mages.

Hmm, will there be low bandwidth networks running through such areas?

The richest are sufficiently protected against most brainhacks that they can get all the benefits of the matrix.

--------

Any progress on the examples?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
In addition, I'd assume that there are all sorts of horror stories (at least some of them true) about brain-jackers, just like the stories about mind-mages.


I don't think this can be stated loudly enough. Absolutely. Let's consider the ramifications of two plotlines: Dreamchipper and Dissonant Voices.
In Dreamchipper someone made a program which when accessed by the human mind rewrote their personality into a brutal psychopathic killer. It also gave them the skills to be a highly effective assassin, and removing the program from the human in question was essentially lethal. The corporation in question abandoned the research, not because they were unable to overwrite the personality of a target virtually instantaneously, not because they were unable to transform a random nebbish into someone who could fight it out on an even footing with a special forces team, but because the result was dangerously unpredictable and lacked any sense of loyalty.
In Dissonant Voices someone forced multiple humans to become a network of networks, sharing their processing power and acting at the command of a unifying program. A super-network which was able to fight on an even footing with the entire financial system simultaneously, borrowing as it was processing cycles from hundreds or thousands of unwilling metahumans.

Those are real events. They've been suppressed by the news media, they've been officially denied by the corporations and the governments alike. But they seriously did happen, and even a tiny inkling of that fact making its way into the rumor mill would scare the pants off of anyone. There seriously may be a copy of the Ripper Chip program somewhere. In any case, it's produceable with 2050s technology and some of the original team members who created it are still alive. A "better" Ripper Chip is entirely within the realm of possibility. Seriously some Hacker could actually come up with a super secret techique that allows them to transform ordinary people into members of their private army and set about conquering the world. That could happen tomorrow or the next day, it's really not outside the realm of possibility of Shadowrun technology. Everyone who has tried it so far has run into major stumbling blocks and been shot in the face - but it could be perfected next week. If you live in 2070 and aren't at least a little worried about that possibility there's something wrong with you.

QUOTE
I'm assuming that there are reasonably skilled brainjackers who spend time jingling poor folks to buy useless consumer goods.


It is Shadowrun canon that there are corporate servers which have IC which attempt to Jingle you into purchasing more consumer goods for as long as you are connected. These aren't even all secure servers or anything, some of them are just normal stuff that consumers deal with on a day to day basis.

QUOTE
So can you still limp out (go full VR) for the +2 IP? Are hackers supposed to get Wired reflexes for more IP? Or will everyone be limited to one full matrix action a turn?


You can go limp for 3 IP (and get the VR booster from Aug to jump it up to 4), or you can get synaptic boosters for 2-4 IP without going limp. This is analagous to how magicians get 3 IP while astrally projecting and need to cast Increased Reflexes or get Synaptic Boosters to get more IP in the real world. Wired people in Shadowrun are crazy fast. Their rate of fire is actually pretty low, but their accurate rate of fire is incredibly crazy high.

QUOTE
Does the stuff I posted in 'being poor' fit with how you envision the system working? It would seem to be the poorest who would opt out of the matrix, since they are the ones most vulnerable to it. The ironic thing is that there are plenty of esentially free matrix services that would benefit the poor most (education, news, etc) but if they expose themselves in an attempt to better their situation, some advert hacker will eventually come along an jingle them. (assuming an advert hacket has skill 3, logic 3, and an appropriate specialization, he's one hit over the smaple poor man on the street).


The problem is that opting out of the Matrix doesn't really help unless you have a good understanding of how it works and take active measures to keep it out. Jingle in particular is connection range, and your brain normally only makes connections out to a few meters. But when you're in shops and corporate facilities, they'll jolly well connect you up. Truly opting out requires not only divesting yourself of a network, but also staying far away from a Wuxing Arcology Shopping Center. A lack of biofeedback filters will end up with you spending all of your money on new shoes and finding yourself desiring new hair products and music.

There are people who steal old copper wiring and make themselves signal protected living areas in the barrens. But even they have to leave sometimes.

QUOTE
Any progress on the examples?


Some. Big test on Thursday. Probably put it all together after that. Any idea what specific things you want examples of?

Edit: Also, it has been brought to my attention that the rules for Technomancers are even worse than I remembered. Lacking in things like "rules for burn-outs" and such. I'll put in a few more of those things. Arrgh that section hacks me off.

-Frank
Buster
I have a question on the program prices you posted. The 500¥/Rating – 2/Rating notation confused me. Are they supposed to be Price = (500¥ * (rating - 2)) and the Availability = (rating)?
Crusher Bob
I'd assume it cost = (500Y x rating) and availability = (2 x rating).
Chandon
Frank -

The system you propose is neat. The direction you've chosen - completely replacing the Matrix system with the magic system - seems like it might work really well.

On the other hand, brain hacking is simply unnecessary jank. The balance argument for adding it is... lacking, and your flavor explanation for it is lame.

If I understand correctly, your logic went about like this:
- Open wireless networks connected to anything useful (security cameras, doors, the alarm) are a security nightmare.
- Therefore no company does it.
- Huh, there's nothing for hackers to do.
- I'll let them black-hammer random people who aren't even online.

The problem is with your second step - it simply doesn't follow. Usability trumps security in corporate computer networks basically every time.

Trying to convince management to install a wired network in 2071 would be like convincing them to move to OpenBSD workstations with security tokens to log in today - sure, a couple of ultra-paranoid managers may do it at ultra-secure facilities, but 99.99% of the time it just won't happen. The CEO will say "we can be almost as secure with radio-blocking paint, and that way I won't have to futz with plugging wires into my comlink to check my internal voice mail and remotely unlock my office door when someone knocks".

Even when a wired network does get installed (usually a very limited security-camera and door locks only network), a hacker can just hack it by plugging in - you unscrew the back panel on the camera, unplug the wire, and plug it into the wireless repeater your brought - which has a second port to plug into the camera so it's only off the network for a couple seconds.

That's what a hacker does by the way, and why they came along rather than staying home after the legwork. Sure, people can be completely immune to hackers by not using electronics - but that's like saying you can be immune to fraud by never using money, it's true, but not practically interesting.

If you want to make hackers more relevant, do it by making the network more ubiquitous. I'd start by completely removing cash nuyen - if people want to perform a financial transaction off-network, they can use gold bullion or something. But even that's probably not necessary - hackers already fill a perfectly good team niche controlling nearby electronics and scrubbing data trails.

---

Now, I do admit that none of that is very cleanly represented by the base SR4 rules, since it doesn't provide enough material to support the level of abstraction they chose (and what material it does provide isn't necessarily coherent). But that's another issue - and maybe an alternate system a lot like the one you present would be a good solution to that problem.
FrankTrollman
You know what? I don't even want to have that particular discussion anymore. I'm sick of it, I'm done. Some people like my rules, some people don't. And I don't give a flying rat's ass if you happen to fall into one group or the other.

That being said, I suppose I will answer this. Again. My thought processes aren't extremely simple, I came to my conclusions over a period of two fucking yers of actually playing the game! But sure, let's go over this in simplified form so that you can see where I'm coming from:

---

First, I want to play Cyberpunk, not Post-Singularity. Second, I want matrix specialists to fight each other in the Matrix. I want people to get brain fried on the internets. I want my fucking Shadowrun, not Asymetric Threat.
    "Pure" AR Creates the Hackastack. In the basic rules they present the axiom that you can hack with just a device and a keypad. Kind of like how I might hack today. The problem is that this means that a drone can hack with a device and a keypad. Or a single person could have multiple devices with multiple keypads and switch from one to the other. And while that's fine in the 1980s, or any time period where these "hacking devices" are few in number and Matrix "access points" are limited, in a world with wireless communications and ubiquitous computing, we've just crossed singularity threshold where everyone can take "arbitrary" amounts of actions.

    One-way Computer Interaction prevents Brain Damage. In 2007, a Hacker does not get brain fried at all. He types commands into his computer and he either compromises the target or he does not, and in any case nothing happens to him. And that's great - for the Hacker. But because it's great for the hacker, it's bad for Shadowrun. There's no amount of "winning" you can give someone which will make up for never losing. So once you give people the option of skipping the entire chance of getting Dumpshock, they'll probably do that.

    To Limit Hackastack Singularity, I chose to create Identity between the Hacker and the Network. That is, the reason that the Hackastack allows a player to extendthelves into infinity is that a specific Matrix Specialist can own more than one Matrix Persona. It's extremely problematic the way the basic rules allow them to use them all together (Agent Smith), but simply using them consecutively protects you in all ways from suffering any real damage from Hacking (Hackastack). By forcing all computing of any real caliber to go through the brain, I have created an arbitrary limit to the number of networks one person can command (equal to their number of brains), as well as destroyed the concept of one-way interaction. Now people can get dumpshock, which is good because it's a concept in Shadowrun so important that we named this forum after it.

    Real World Hacking relies upon User Error, but Players control the actions of PCs. No player is going to have their character open the atachment "Malicious_Code.exe" on the email from SecurityGnome546. And "hacking fights" between two guys trying to trick each other into doing so is boring as hell. Matrix combat is supposed to be an action packed affair with virtual swords flashing - if characters seriously have to allow themselves to be compromised the combats aren't even as strategic and interesting as Bomber Man - it's just two people standing on the other side of the room trying to convince the other to eat a poison candy bar that they both know is fucking poison!

    I chose to create a model in which user error was not required. Because action is no longer required on the part of the target to be hacked, action is now required on the part of the target to avoid being hacked. That's good. It's the dynamic I'm looking for.

    Once the "Network" includes brains, and "Hacking" is pro-active, you can hack other people's brains. This should be fairly non-contentious, but for some reason it causes some people to flip the fuck out. I don't know why. And I don't even care.

So sure, you can go ahead and not like the rules I made. I'm not telling you that you have to use them. You can even not use the flavor text. That's fine too. But that's where I'm coming from. I wanted people to fight each other in the matrix through their datajacks and have the loser slump over in his chair like what happens in the books. I wanted everyone to run around with a commlink hooked to their brain all the time, like the book tells me people are supposed to do. And I got that. People use commlinks. They use them all the time. People fight in the Matrix. The Matrix is no longer something you can conveniently ignore. It's no longer something you can copy yourself onto millions of times.

For my goals, it's a success. Those not may be your goals. You may not like it, you may decide not to use it. But it is not "jank".

-Frank
Sponge
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
let's go over this in simplified form so that you can see where I'm coming from:

Thanks for that Frank! I wish you had included this up front when you originally presented your rules.

DS
Redjack
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Nov 22 2007, 02:54 AM)
Real World Hacking relies upon User Error
As previously stated, this statement is lacking an understanding of hacking. I once again submit concepts like: man-in-the-middle-attacks, privilege escalation, injection vulnerabilities, buffer overflows.... and so on and so on..
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