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Buster
QUOTE (eidolon)
On the original question, I tend to be on the "people know when you mess with their heads" side of the fence. That, combined with the fact that the other similar spells (in this case, Control Actions, Mind Probe, et al) state directly or imply pretty heavily that the target is aware, leads me to my interpretation.

Except that the Influence spell specifically says they are not.
Cain
QUOTE
"interpersonal politics" sounds like a White Wolf game.

Exactly. I can't understand why the roleplaying purists want that in their Shadowrun games. Well, I *can*, I just don't get it. Explain, please?

QUOTE
And in a street level game (or any game) Mind Controlling someone to get a few grand is not that big of a deal. Mind Controlling someone to get Screw You Money ™ is a horse of a different color. Once players get a disproportionate amount of money the reasons for the game to be start to dissipate. Forgive me for finding this problematic. I prefer to game than not to game.

Just getting *access* to someone with a ton of nuyen can be an entire game in and of itself. Dealing with disproportionate amounts of cash is part of good storytelling.
QUOTE
Well, the question at hand is more like "do people know if they are getting mind controlled". nyahnyah.gif

In general, I rule that yes, they do know... after the fact. More subtle stuff, such as Influence or minor alterations, might get passed off as mental indigestion.

QUOTE
Some people do purely hands-off GMing. I try to stay hands off as much as possible and if anything, use influence to change the course of a game rather than hand waiving. Since MC, as written, is essentially allowing players to hand waive, I think its entirely appropriate to get a little antsy.

I've been playing an awful lot of narrative RPG's lately, where the players get to influence things to a heavy degree. In a game like Wushu, player control is the whole point of the game. You can safely let the players take more narrative control, even less mature players, without diluting the fun of the game. In fact, you can enhance it.
Tarantula
"Exactly. I can't understand why the roleplaying purists want that in their Shadowrun games. Well, I *can*, I just don't get it. Explain, please?"

My answer.

Roleplaying guy: I really don't like how our samurai kills people without thought or concern, we should ditch him.

Rollplaying samurai: Bang, you're dead.


Interpersonal politics solved.
eidolon
QUOTE (Buster)
QUOTE (eidolon @ Nov 9 2007, 11:06 AM)
On the original question, I tend to be on the "people know when you mess with their heads" side of the fence.  That, combined with the fact that the other similar spells (in this case, Control Actions, Mind Probe, et al) state directly or imply pretty heavily that the target is aware, leads me to my interpretation.

Except that the Influence spell specifically says they are not.

And Control Thoughts doesn't. *shrug*
Buster
QUOTE (eidolon @ Nov 9 2007, 03:20 PM)
QUOTE (Buster @ Nov 9 2007, 12:21 PM)
QUOTE (eidolon @ Nov 9 2007, 11:06 AM)
On the original question, I tend to be on the "people know when you mess with their heads" side of the fence.  That, combined with the fact that the other similar spells (in this case, Control Actions, Mind Probe, et al) state directly or imply pretty heavily that the target is aware, leads me to my interpretation.

Except that the Influence spell specifically says they are not.

And Control Thoughts doesn't. *shrug*

I know, that's why I posted earlier that I thought that Control Thoughts, etc. left a movie-style memory hole where the victim has no idea what happened to him during the spell effect. But Influence specifically states that the victim thinks the command was his idea which opens up a can of worms when it comes to world domination issues. Using Influence to tell someone "give me all your money" is completely viable. There's no reason to use Control Thoughts when one command from Influence does the job with less drain and no mess.
eidolon
Totally missed that post, sorry. Okay, I'm tracking now.

I could see the memory hole being fun, but I like the "fear of what's going on as it's happening" aspect that comes with the possibility of awareness. biggrin.gif
Buster
QUOTE (eidolon @ Nov 9 2007, 04:37 PM)
Totally missed that post, sorry.  Okay, I'm tracking now.

I could see the memory hole being fun, but I like the "fear of what's going on as it's happening" aspect that comes with the possibility of awareness. biggrin.gif

True, that would add an awesome horror genre feel to it.

What would be perfect is having both ideas available as separate spell formula. A spellcaster could even learn both versions just to mess with people. He could use the "memory hole" version to be stealthy and he could use the "aware of what's going on but can't stop it" version just to scare the crap out of people. devil.gif
eidolon
QUOTE (Buster)
What would be perfect is having both ideas available as separate spell formula.


Yeah, that would work well. You could also do something like "at a certain threshold, it does X, and another threshold, it does Y" and give a bit of chance to it. Not sure it would be that cool in play though. Maybe just the different formula thing.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Tarantula)
"Exactly. I can't understand why the roleplaying purists want that in their Shadowrun games. Well, I *can*, I just don't get it. Explain, please?"

My answer.

Roleplaying guy: I really don't like how our samurai kills people without thought or concern, we should ditch him.

Rollplaying samurai: Bang, you're dead.


Interpersonal politics solved.

And the best part of it: the Role Playing Purist can't say shit against that 'cause, you know . . Sam is staxing in character *g*
FriendoftheDork
What do you guys have against roleplayers? Geez. Sounds like some witchhunt here... there are more modest way of playing say WoD as well as not all D&D players are munchkins. I've played both and have fun doing it, both heavy roleplay and mostly hackn'slash games.

I have no problems with people playing sammies who kill without concern, although making said character somewhat unstable or emotionally challenged makes him alot more fun for the rest. Cardboard cut-outs are boring no matter if they're supposed to be pacifist computer geeks or murdering psychos.
Cain
We have trouble with roleplaying elitists, who consistently deride "rollplayers" as anyone who doesn't live up to their hypocritical standards. Der Mankey is acting suspiciously like one right now. The standard of Dumpshock is this: So long as you're having fun, who cares how you're running your game? Shadowrun players tend more towards the gamist than the narrative, true, but that doesn't mean they don't roleplay; nor does making your game about interpersonal politics mean you're roleplaying.
Ol' Scratch
People here don't have anything against roleplayers. They have something against elitists. There's a huge difference between the two, and when people talk about roleplayers, they generally mean elitists.

When dealing with a game that relies on everyone sharing a story and in which everyone is both expecting and dependant upon an agreed-upon set of rules for determine conflict (both with themselves and the rest of the story setting), you have to make sure things are balanced both thematically and mechanically. If you have one without the other, you're not really roleplaying. You're either forcing your story down someone else's gullet, or you're just rolling dice for no particular reason.

Elitists tend to be of the mindset that "the world is more important than the rules, and I don't care if it's completely and utterly broken, I'm RolePlaying™! Don't ruin my submersion!!!" And they're the type of player that most other players want to take a blunt instrument to.
FriendoftheDork
So if someone ignores the rules or discards them altogether then they're roleplaying "elitists" out to ruins everyone's fun with interpersonal politics?

What utter rot. As you say, as long as you're having fun you're doing it right. What's broken to some players are just dandy to others.

Me, I've have fun with both diceless playing with no rules other than the GM, as well as the opposite.

I don't care if der Mankey (or whatever) is acting like a witch, if his fun is spoilt by having a spell that forces you to do anything, then it's his right as a GM to house rule it, even better if his players agree.

Although I've done nothing to Control Thoughts myself, I have told a player that hacking things for profit (like car theft) on the side should be avoided. Not because the hacking rules are broken (that's another discussion), but because I don't want to spend time doing all these rolls every day of downtime so that he can get a few more ks of nuyen to play around with, or just arbitrarily award him an income with no risk attached. This game, at least mine, is about Shadowrunning, not OTHER kinds of get-rich-quick schemes like wanton hacking, mind controling everyone or doing hold-ups in Stuffer Shacks.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork)
So if someone ignores the rules or discards them altogether then they're roleplaying "elitists" out to ruins everyone's fun with interpersonal politics?

Nope. They are when they say as much, and go on and on about how wretched someone is when they show concern for both sides of the fence. "It's all about the story! Such paltry concerns are beyond me! I say again, sirrah, quit ruining my immersion with your inferior playstyle! Cretin!"

You wanted to know what an elitist was. There you go.

QUOTE
What utter rot. As you say, as long as you're having fun you're doing it right. What's broken to some players are just dandy to others.

Yep, they're allowed to do whatever they like in their own games and with their own friends. No one's debating that. At least no one is focusing on that, anyway.
Cain
QUOTE
Although I've done nothing to Control Thoughts myself, I have told a player that hacking things for profit (like car theft) on the side should be avoided. Not because the hacking rules are broken (that's another discussion), but because I don't want to spend time doing all these rolls every day of downtime so that he can get a few more ks of nuyen to play around with, or just arbitrarily award him an income with no risk attached. This game, at least mine, is about Shadowrunning, not OTHER kinds of get-rich-quick schemes like wanton hacking, mind controling everyone or doing hold-ups in Stuffer Shacks.

You know, there's an awful lot of people on the forums who believe that Shadowrun should be more street-level. They like ganger-style characters, when you are scrabbling for every last nuyen, pushing drugs and holding up Stuffer Shacks in order to *survive*. I personally don't like that campaign style, but people seem to have fun with it.

Shadowrun is about the Shadowrun world; you can run crimes-for-hire in just about any setting. However you want to explore that world is up to you. But the line is crossed into roleplaying elitism whenever someone announces that "This is how the game is played, and if you don't agree, you're not roleplaying properly."
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Nov 10 2007, 07:13 PM)
So if someone ignores the rules or discards them altogether then they're roleplaying "elitists" out to ruins everyone's fun with interpersonal politics?

Nope. They are when they say as much, and go on and on about how wretched someone is when they show concern for both sides of the fence. "It's all about the story! Such paltry concerns are beyond me! I say again, sirrah, quit ruining my immersion with your inferior playstyle! Cretin!"

You wanted to know what an elitist was. There you go.

QUOTE
What utter rot. As you say, as long as you're having fun you're doing it right. What's broken to some players are just dandy to others.

Yep, they're allowed to do whatever they like in their own games and with their own friends. No one's debating that. At least no one is focusing on that, anyway.

Alright, then we may not disagree after all. I think I just haven't actually MET any of those people, although I have met various kinds of roleplayers and powergamers.


Cain, we actually started on that level... the party was working in a stuffer shacks, doing "runs" for a gang, etc. Back in those days stealing cars would be a challenge in itself.

Now that they are 400BP 70 karma characters however and do big runs however, there's no need to waste time on those things.

They've got god uses from both hacking and mind control DURING the runs now... no need to go on a spree. In which case they'll like to get caught sooner rather than later.
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