Full Version: How obvious is control thought?
Control thought, does the target know they are being controlled? If they are aware, when? During? After?
The description says the target can expend a complex action after X time to try and break out, bonus question, where do you get this complex action when someone else is using your actions for you?
How would you know to try and break out if you didn't know you were being mind controlled? Other side of the argument, why would anyone use control thoughts instead of control action which has less drain if your target always knew it had been controlled?
Thoughts?
Most of that is personal opinion and conjecture. I doubt if you'll find any unanimous decisions on the subject. Go with the answers you like best, and you'll be right.
As to why you'd use Control Thoughts over Control Actions? Because it does a lot more. You don't only have control of their bodies, but their skills, talents, abilities, and memories (to a certain degree anyway), too. That's a pretty big boost in power.
As to why you'd use Control Thoughts over Control Actions? Because it does a lot more. You don't only have control of their bodies, but their skills, talents, abilities, and memories (to a certain degree anyway), too. That's a pretty big boost in power.
Well, I don't know squat about SR4, but as a GM I always found Control Thoughts to be kind of overpowered. If I had to go through life all again, I'd consider making Control Thoughts to have the same restrictions as Charm Person from D&D, namely that you can't get people to do utterly out of character things, or make someone do something clearly not in their best interest like shooting themselves.
We just banned all the mind control spells after one time too many of "Please send me all you money, then shoot yourselves in the head". I think that was the first time someone did it.
I'm with Wounded Ronin on this. If you want a very specific thing done via Control Thoughts, you'd better make sure the character is given a good reason to do it. The more at odds with the personality, the more likely it is to fail.
| QUOTE (Sunday_Gamer) |
| Control thought, does the target know they are being controlled? If they are aware, when? During? After? |
It doesn't say that the target is unaware of being controlled, and they get attempts to break free from the control. Despite not explicitly saying so, is seems obvious, from the context, that the victim is aware of being controlled.
| QUOTE |
The description says the target can expend a complex action after X time to try and break out, bonus question, where do you get this complex action when someone else is using your actions for you? |
Since they are able to expend the complex action (obviously, since it says so), this would be an interruption of the control as the victim struggles to break free. Keep in mind that these successive attempts will keep subtracting from the spellcaster's net hits, so even the most weak-willed characters can't be controlled indefinitely.
| QUOTE |
| How would you know to try and break out if you didn't know you were being mind controlled? Other side of the argument, why would anyone use control thoughts instead of control action which has less drain if your target always knew it had been controlled? Thoughts? |
That, to me, supports my assumption that the victim is aware of the control (I don't see how they wouldn't be - they are "compelled to obey", not remote-controlled puppets). Control actions is a good spell, but the victim can act when not directly controlled, you suffer a dice pool penalty (when forcing them to use their abilities) due to their resistance to the control, and, since it doesn't affect the mind, you are still potentially open to counterattack from mages and/or technomancers.
| QUOTE |
| We just banned all the mind control spells after one time too many of "Please send me all you money, then shoot yourselves in the head". I think that was the first time someone did it. |
For us it was one time too many of a juvenile player commanding the opposition to sodomize themselves with their weapons...
| QUOTE (HappyDaze) | ||
For us it was one time too many of a juvenile player commanding the opposition to sodomize themselves with their weapons... |
WTF!?
No... HELL no. EJECTED from the game. Personal Foul, #36 on the Offense.
Control Thoughts is massive IMBA. My personal opinions are as follows.
Control Thoughts produces a net hits total that must be met or exceeded by the target. Whenever a target is asked to do something out of character, their now semi-concious brain gets a shot to shake the effects of the spell, calling out from under the covers of the spell "no! thats a bad idea! noooooo!". This would be a Willpower check with bonus or penalties based on how amenable the action is to the character and their goals.
If you ask a Mind Controlled target to do something mundane, something they would do normally or that would cause no harm to them, there is no check made - ie the spell functions as written as long as the player keeps things reasonable. Once you start venturing off into things that no one would do without second thought, it gets a bit trickier. I tend to play it by ear and use the tables for intimidation bonuses / penalties as a guideline for dice bonus and penalties. If the action would cause bodily harm, is ruinous to the character etc. a Willpower check is made immediately and sometimes with a bonus. As soon as the MC'd target hits the threshold of the spell, it breaks and they come out of it like a sudden reverie, a half lucid dream of which they have semi-tangible memories.
This has gone a long ways to keep players from saying things like "empty your bank accounts and shoot yourself in the head". I have had little, if any, resistance to these changes. They make sense.
Thats how I hamstring the busted spell...
- der menkey
"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~ Ernest Hemingway
Control Thoughts produces a net hits total that must be met or exceeded by the target. Whenever a target is asked to do something out of character, their now semi-concious brain gets a shot to shake the effects of the spell, calling out from under the covers of the spell "no! thats a bad idea! noooooo!". This would be a Willpower check with bonus or penalties based on how amenable the action is to the character and their goals.
If you ask a Mind Controlled target to do something mundane, something they would do normally or that would cause no harm to them, there is no check made - ie the spell functions as written as long as the player keeps things reasonable. Once you start venturing off into things that no one would do without second thought, it gets a bit trickier. I tend to play it by ear and use the tables for intimidation bonuses / penalties as a guideline for dice bonus and penalties. If the action would cause bodily harm, is ruinous to the character etc. a Willpower check is made immediately and sometimes with a bonus. As soon as the MC'd target hits the threshold of the spell, it breaks and they come out of it like a sudden reverie, a half lucid dream of which they have semi-tangible memories.
This has gone a long ways to keep players from saying things like "empty your bank accounts and shoot yourself in the head". I have had little, if any, resistance to these changes. They make sense.
Thats how I hamstring the busted spell...
- der menkey
"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~ Ernest Hemingway
Same for me, and it's kinda like the mind control spells you see in movies, where the mind-control hero (or his/her friend) refuses to kill his/her friend because "their friendship is stronger than the spell".
If you feel like your players will refuse this, just have an opposing mage mind control a player, and he'll be the one to beg for this house rule.
If you feel like your players will refuse this, just have an opposing mage mind control a player, and he'll be the one to beg for this house rule.
| QUOTE |
| something they would do normally or that would cause no harm to them, there is no check made |
so things like:"do transaction of all your money to me"
or things like:"open this door to the bank tresor so i can go in"
or things like:"type in your administrator-password so i can access all files"
would work just fine?
I always thought that Control Thoughts leaves a blank spot in the victim's memory, just like movie-style hypnosis. He doesn't remember anything that happened while he was being controlled.
However, Influence clearly states that the victim thinks the commands were his own idea, therefore he remembers everything that's going on. The only downside is that Influence is only one command per casting, but one command is all I ever need. And since Influence is a lower drain, I use nothing but Influence and never even learn Control Thoughts.
However, Influence clearly states that the victim thinks the commands were his own idea, therefore he remembers everything that's going on. The only downside is that Influence is only one command per casting, but one command is all I ever need. And since Influence is a lower drain, I use nothing but Influence and never even learn Control Thoughts.
No, Stahlseele, because the person would likely not transfer all his money to you normally, or open the bank vault for you, or open his admin account to you. But if you were clever about it, nudged him to do these things in a way that seemed natural, then it'd be ok. The more you force the person to break from character, the more likely they are to resist the effect. This house-rule works for me.
so if i were just to leave out any part concerning ME in the order he would do it just as usually without resistance and i could STILL profit from his actions?
Eryk is on track. Methinks you are reading to literally, Stahleele. The spell is written loosely and so my interpretation is just that - stuff I made up to adapt the spell to what I think works. Its not a hard and fast rule by any means. It does, however, work rather well in my experience. Someone who gets a ton of hits on their MC check can still make someone do something completely retarded... They just don't get to make someone do something retarded over and over and over and over.
The trick is to finagle your way into having the target do things that they wouldn't want to do normally, but they wouldn't REFUSE to do. If you can influence them in other ways to think that giving you all of their money is in their best interest, or even something that isn't a bad idea, theres a good chance that Control Thoughts would work for that kind of thing.
Control Thoughts on a samurai to have him katana (as in katana - v. to slash with a katana) his mage buddy results in immediate checks to break free from Mind Control. There is no way that someone would just turn around and split the skull of a compatriot during combat against a common foe. Its totally out of character. Given enough successes on your cast, however, theres a good chance that the MC'd target will not break free and will indeed katana the skull of his buddy... Chances are good, however, that he won't be doing any more services of that ilk again until you cast MC again. (PS - I give fatass bonuses to targets who get repeat mind control spells cast at them.)
Opening a bank door or whatever under duress is not something a character would do. They don't just forget who they are and what they were doing... You are still asking them to do something that is the opposite of what they would do themselves. Their mind gets a chance to struggle free from the bonds of the spell.
- der menkey
"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~ Ernest Hemingway
The trick is to finagle your way into having the target do things that they wouldn't want to do normally, but they wouldn't REFUSE to do. If you can influence them in other ways to think that giving you all of their money is in their best interest, or even something that isn't a bad idea, theres a good chance that Control Thoughts would work for that kind of thing.
Control Thoughts on a samurai to have him katana (as in katana - v. to slash with a katana) his mage buddy results in immediate checks to break free from Mind Control. There is no way that someone would just turn around and split the skull of a compatriot during combat against a common foe. Its totally out of character. Given enough successes on your cast, however, theres a good chance that the MC'd target will not break free and will indeed katana the skull of his buddy... Chances are good, however, that he won't be doing any more services of that ilk again until you cast MC again. (PS - I give fatass bonuses to targets who get repeat mind control spells cast at them.)
Opening a bank door or whatever under duress is not something a character would do. They don't just forget who they are and what they were doing... You are still asking them to do something that is the opposite of what they would do themselves. Their mind gets a chance to struggle free from the bonds of the spell.
- der menkey
"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~ Ernest Hemingway
I honestly don't see the big deal. The drain is attrocious and it only lasts a few combat rounds. You can't get someone to escort you into the control room, introduce you to the Marquis or give you a blowjob. That simply takes too much time even for a Willpower 1 wageslave.
Yes, you can get someone to wire you all their money and then shoot themelves in the head. Instead you could just manabolt the guy to death for less drain and then pick up their credstick and wire yourself all their money.
You don't think Zurich Orbital has potential fraud flags go up when someone transfers all their money within 9 seconds of being dead? In Shadowrun you can potentially, and easily claim hundreds of thousands or millions of nuyen overnight. You can do that today as well. The problem is that doing that sort of thing has a tendency to get noticed by the Treasury Department and the Corporate Court has a goon squad that has a mandate of enforcement almost everywhere (except Heinan and Madagascar).
-Frank
Yes, you can get someone to wire you all their money and then shoot themelves in the head. Instead you could just manabolt the guy to death for less drain and then pick up their credstick and wire yourself all their money.
You don't think Zurich Orbital has potential fraud flags go up when someone transfers all their money within 9 seconds of being dead? In Shadowrun you can potentially, and easily claim hundreds of thousands or millions of nuyen overnight. You can do that today as well. The problem is that doing that sort of thing has a tendency to get noticed by the Treasury Department and the Corporate Court has a goon squad that has a mandate of enforcement almost everywhere (except Heinan and Madagascar).
-Frank
People like to downplay how powerful the spell is because it is powerful. You're controlling the person's thoughts. Everything they do under it's influence is something they think they thought of themselves. It's basically a more powerful version of Influence afterall.
If you tell them to do something absurd and out of character, sure, they might catch on that something wonky is going on but unless they've had experience in such magics they're not going to instantly know someone is making them do these things. Perhaps on reflection later, especially if investigated, but not during the course of the spell.
If you tell them to do something absurd and out of character, sure, they might catch on that something wonky is going on but unless they've had experience in such magics they're not going to instantly know someone is making them do these things. Perhaps on reflection later, especially if investigated, but not during the course of the spell.
| QUOTE |
| so if i were just to leave out any part concerning ME in the order he would do it just as usually without resistance and i could STILL profit from his actions? |
No. That's not enough. Because they'd still be unlikely to do those things, unless you engineered a situation where the actions wouldn't seem out of character. "Open the bank vault" is an order that would likely have the bank manager thinking "This doesn't seem right; why am I doing this?" simply because it's not something he likely does often or without damn good reason. And he certainly doesn't normally do it without security nearby (or whatever procedure might be). He'd get a chance to resist. Maybe he gets a penalty on the roll, because the action is out of the ordinary, but not wholly unnatural.
The point is, you're thinking in black-and-white terms, when the whole point here is that you'd issue bonuses and penalties as appropriate. It's not black and white. It's not "resistance or no resistance". There's also the possibility of "resistance with a small penalty" or "resistance with a large penalty" or "resistance with a bonus" or anything in between. Maybe you don't like judgment calls like that; I don't know. If that's the case, then the rule isn't for you. But your arguments suggest that your issue is a loophole in the idea that quite frankly isn't there.
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| You don't think Zurich Orbital has potential fraud flags go up when someone transfers all their money within 9 seconds of being dead? In Shadowrun you can potentially, and easily claim hundreds of thousands or millions of nuyen overnight. You can do that today as well. The problem is that doing that sort of thing has a tendency to get noticed by the Treasury Department and the Corporate Court has a goon squad that has a mandate of enforcement almost everywhere (except Heinan and Madagascar). -Frank |
Fraud is the implicit problem in most of these kinds of schemes that my players come up with... "I make him give me all of his cash." Riiiight. I sincerely doubt that Zurich Orbital's staff won't request a confirmation with biometrics etc. asking "are sure zat you really vant to sendt ahll of zis money?"
Logic is a dangerous thing to wield at your players.
In general, however, I am not really for a spell (or any effect) that lets players do whatever they want without significant amounts of resistance. Drama is created by tension etc. But yeah, if you want someone dead, manabolt is badace at killing.
- der menkey
"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~ Ernest Hemingway
It seems like a lot of the utility of such spells depends on timing as much as anything else -- why not wait and cast the spell until right after the executive has logged onto his computer for the day, and convince him he really, really, needs to go pee right now in the executive washroom around the corner? Then you've got your computer access. Or wait until the bank vault has been opened, and hit the guy with a distressing "ohmigosh, did I leave the front door unlocked? Go check, hurry, hurry."
While leaving that account logged in or that vault momentarily open to go check the door might still represent a break in their routine, I imagine it would (if nothing else) represent a much lesser break in routine than telling someone to simply open a bank vault door or to sodomize themselves with their Ares Alpha.
While leaving that account logged in or that vault momentarily open to go check the door might still represent a break in their routine, I imagine it would (if nothing else) represent a much lesser break in routine than telling someone to simply open a bank vault door or to sodomize themselves with their Ares Alpha.
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| It seems like a lot of the utility of such spells depends on timing as much as anything else -- why not wait and cast the spell until right after the executive has logged onto his computer for the day, and convince him he really, really, needs to go pee right now in the executive washroom around the corner? Then you've got your computer access. Or wait until the bank vault has been opened, and hit the guy with a distressing "ohmigosh, did I leave the front door unlocked? Go check, hurry, hurry." While leaving that account logged in or that vault momentarily open to go check the door might still represent a break in their routine, I imagine it would (if nothing else) represent a much lesser break in routine than telling someone to simply open a bank vault door or to sodomize themselves with their Ares Alpha. |
Methinks that is the perfect kind of scenario to start brainstorming how Control Thoughts ought to work, if anyone were to ask me... which I don't think anyone did... but so what...
Subtlety is where its at for influence spells. Things that break from that vein I frown upon personally and hit players with house rules like giving targets checks to break free from control. I'd say its justified. Glad to see that people agree - apparently I am not insane.
- der menkey
"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~ Ernest Hemingway
| QUOTE (noonesshowmonkey) |
| Fraud is the implicit problem in most of these kinds of schemes that my players come up with... "I make him give me all of his cash." Riiiight. I sincerely doubt that Zurich Orbital's staff won't request a confirmation with biometrics etc. asking "are sure zat you really vant to sendt ahll of zis money?" Logic is a dangerous thing to wield at your players. |
There are like 4 dozen people at zurich orbital. There are several trillion transactions everyday. I'm sure they carefully study each transfer and the circumstances surrounding it for minutes before approving it. If you are going to throw logic at me I'm going to throw it back, starting with hacking certified credsticks and creating money. Which, judging from the way they are described and the fact that they are stated explicitly to be totally anonymous, is trivial.
The computer system obviously has failsafes that notify the 4 dozen people when a strange transaction happens. If you've ever gone into a bank to close your account or take out all your money you'd know the bank manager is immediately notified and tries to talk you out of it.
And anonymous doesn't mean you don't have contact. The bank merely doesn't let any of their records out and allows you to use passwords and account numbers instead of names to tie to accounts. You may well have to deal with a manager each time you access that money in large amounts. He just won't remember who you are.
And anonymous doesn't mean you don't have contact. The bank merely doesn't let any of their records out and allows you to use passwords and account numbers instead of names to tie to accounts. You may well have to deal with a manager each time you access that money in large amounts. He just won't remember who you are.
I've never had an encounter where the spell was a problem. Anything you could do with it, you could accomplish through other means. It's just a very versatile spell. Mind Probe, Alter Memory, Physical Mask, and Control Actions can all be used to do pretty much the same things. The pay off is that Control Thoughts can duplicate aspects of each of those spells, but at the cost of not being able to do everything else they can do (excluding Control Actions).
So... yeah. Dunno why it gets so much grief.
So... yeah. Dunno why it gets so much grief.
| QUOTE (Simon May) |
| The computer system obviously has failsafes that notify the 4 dozen people when a strange transaction happens. If you've ever gone into a bank to close your account or take out all your money you'd know the bank manager is immediately notified and tries to talk you out of it. |
Sorry, but kzt's right on this one. There'd be several trillion transactions a day, how many of those do you think will be account closures? Even at 1%, that's too many for 4 dozen people to track in a single day. It might red-flag the closing of major corporate accounts, but it's going to blow over all the penny-ante transactions.
| QUOTE |
Subtlety is where its at for influence spells. Things that break from that vein I frown upon personally and hit players with house rules like giving targets checks to break free from control. I'd say its justified. Glad to see that people agree - apparently I am not insane. |
You can still pull off quite a few things. For example, you could convince an exec to remote login with his admin passcode from your "secure" commlink. You could convince him that the gun is unloaded, or is a realistic nerf toy, so he can point it at his head safely. Sublety is all fine and good, but that still doesn't prevent abuses.
Firm GMing prevents abuses.
As far as logic is concerned and kzt's explanations... Certainly there are zillions of transactions going on all of the time.
I'd still wager that a program of some kind is checking each transaction and referencing previous transactions in that account and looking for discrepancies. If it finds any, it would assign a threat level and move it on to the next link in the fraud detection chain which might be another program that performs more in depth checks etc. This would continue until, if it is sufficiently suspect, a human gets their hands on the info and calls someone up and says
As far as logic is concerned and kzt's explanations... Certainly there are zillions of transactions going on all of the time.
I'd still wager that a program of some kind is checking each transaction and referencing previous transactions in that account and looking for discrepancies. If it finds any, it would assign a threat level and move it on to the next link in the fraud detection chain which might be another program that performs more in depth checks etc. This would continue until, if it is sufficiently suspect, a human gets their hands on the info and calls someone up and says
| QUOTE |
| "are sure zat you really vant to sendt ahll of zis money?" |
The fact that cred sticks "have" value is debatable, even as written in the rules... which I frankly don't give two shits about when the rules are retarded. They have an electronic representation of money - an electronic bucket that gets poured into from or out to other electronic buckets. There is no particular reason that those "funds" can not be frozen, seized or otherwise repatriated. Now this means that people can "steal" easily, but unless they make the money disappear into some kind of movable good, it can be "stolen" back just as easily. And probably within minutes.
If you take exception to the use of "logic", please insert whatever term does not result in rumpled panties. People that look for exception in things and are surprised when they find exception (ie find what they are looking for) confuse the hell out of me.
We can debate the finer points of what cred means, maaaaan for endless pages on this forum. Or, we can continue to chat about the implications and uses of Mind Control. I'd say that the former use would be its own thread and that the latter is this thread. We can toss around our own views on this sort of stuff all we like. Consensus is over rated.
- der menkey
"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~ Ernest Hemingway
| QUOTE |
| I'd still wager that a program of some kind is checking each transaction and referencing previous transactions in that account and looking for discrepancies. If it finds any, it would assign a threat level and move it on to the next link in the fraud detection chain which might be another program that performs more in depth checks etc. This would continue until, if it is sufficiently suspect, a human gets their hands on the info and calls someone up and says <snip> |
Not really. You look for a pattern of discrepancies, not just one. One account closure isn't going to be a big deal. Besides, the first thing it's going to look for is identity theft, and the mind-controlled person is going to pass those checks with flying colors. Maybe he'll get interrogated a bit more, but that's not a big deal.
| QUOTE |
| The fact that cred sticks "have" value is debatable, even as written in the rules... which I frankly don't give two shits about when the rules are retarded. They have an electronic representation of money - an electronic bucket that gets poured into from or out to other electronic buckets. There is no particular reason that those "funds" can not be frozen, seized or otherwise repatriated. Now this means that people can "steal" easily, but unless they make the money disappear into some kind of movable good, it can be "stolen" back just as easily. And probably within minutes. |
In 2070-- heck, to a large extent, nowadays-- just about *everything* is an electronic representation of money. Your bank accounts, your credit cards, even your checkbooks. Anything except for hard, cold, cash is pretty much just a symbol. And heck, why do you think there's so much symbolism on the dollar bill?
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| Anything except for hard, cold, cash is pretty much just a symbol. And heck, why do you think there's so much symbolism on the dollar bill? |
possibly because it's just a piece of paper, and doesn't have any intrinsic value on it's own (it's not even particularly backed up by anything that has "real" value either, anymore...)
The point is that stealing the money out of people's accounts is easy. When you go to the stuffer shack and authorize a monetary transfer to get your Cheetos and Beersicles the Stuffer Shack could just as easily overcharge you or balloon payment, or copy your biometric authorization codes and reverse engineer a request for all your money the moment you leave.
Stuffer Shack does not do this because it is a reputable business and it has no interest in undermining confidence in the yen, its services, or its own faith that the corporate court won't rule against them in the ongoing deliberations of whether they are allowed to exist.
Private citizens can do it too. It's called credit fraud, and it happens all the time. Fraudulent credit users are freqently caught, especially when they get greedy. The best way to do it is to se the fraudulent credit to purchase disposable, nearly untraceable items and to do so in a method that is seemingly without pattern.
Credit Fraud is a dangerous game. In fact, it practically is the game once you start doing it. Constantly moving, constantly ducking the Corporate Court Enforcers, constantly getting weird things and trading them directly for goods and services.
-Frank
Stuffer Shack does not do this because it is a reputable business and it has no interest in undermining confidence in the yen, its services, or its own faith that the corporate court won't rule against them in the ongoing deliberations of whether they are allowed to exist.
Private citizens can do it too. It's called credit fraud, and it happens all the time. Fraudulent credit users are freqently caught, especially when they get greedy. The best way to do it is to se the fraudulent credit to purchase disposable, nearly untraceable items and to do so in a method that is seemingly without pattern.
Credit Fraud is a dangerous game. In fact, it practically is the game once you start doing it. Constantly moving, constantly ducking the Corporate Court Enforcers, constantly getting weird things and trading them directly for goods and services.
-Frank
Yerp. Fruad is redonk simple and so is spoofing a cred stick. Spoofing value in SR would be really very easy, but doing it past a value of a few thousand nuyen is not something that I, as a GM, would let slide without a good justification. Much less would it be a long term method towards wealth. Getting a few thousand out of a bank account with Mind Control would probably result in an investigation within a few days and or the funds being take back. Either case, mission failure as far as getting the dough.
Similarly, Mind Control is not a "get rich spell". It is an influence spell used to resolve conflicts that the game brings up, it is a method for the player to take action, it is a cool spell, it is a lot of things... But a "get rich quick" solution? Nah.
Lets Play Money Making Game.
- der menkey
"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~ Ernest Hemingway
Similarly, Mind Control is not a "get rich spell". It is an influence spell used to resolve conflicts that the game brings up, it is a method for the player to take action, it is a cool spell, it is a lot of things... But a "get rich quick" solution? Nah.
Lets Play Money Making Game.
- der menkey
"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~ Ernest Hemingway
If you had the right contacts, one could just have the money transferred into a black market account, darknet account, or any other such account where the money can not be easily accessed by outside parties. A black market account would be even better because a crime syndicate is most likely behind it and they aren't going to let such a large sum of money be taken away so easily. That, and they don't mind breaking the law to ensure such a large sum of money is not taken back.
Another idea, if you have the right contacts, would be to steal from a wageslave and have the funds transferred to an account of an opposing corporation.
Another idea, if you have the right contacts, would be to steal from a wageslave and have the funds transferred to an account of an opposing corporation.
If you're playing just to get game money, don't bother with all this. Just create an hyper specialist character with the SINner negative quality. Have him send his resume to the megacorps, and let him choose the best contract.
Nice! Your character is now rich and successful. What about creating a Shadowrunner now?
Nice! Your character is now rich and successful. What about creating a Shadowrunner now?
| QUOTE (Blade) |
| If you're playing just to get game money, don't bother with all this. Just create an hyper specialist character with the SINner negative quality. Have him send his resume to the megacorps, and let him choose the best contract. Nice! Your character is now rich and successful. What about creating a Shadowrunner now? |
No, you want to be rich without being contracted to any corp. So you create a rich and successful Shadowrunner with Mind Control.
| QUOTE (Blade @ Nov 9 2007, 08:26 AM) |
| If you're playing just to get game money, don't bother with all this. Just create an hyper specialist character with the SINner negative quality. Have him send his resume to the megacorps, and let him choose the best contract. Nice! Your character is now rich and successful. What about creating a Shadowrunner now? |
ZING!
- der menkey
PS. my thoughts exactly.
PPS. lulls @ toturi
"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~ Ernest Hemingway
| QUOTE (noonesshowmonkey @ Nov 9 2007, 08:14 AM) |
| Yerp. Fruad is redonk simple and so is spoofing a cred stick. Spoofing value in SR would be really very easy, but doing it past a value of a few thousand nuyen is not something that I, as a GM, would let slide without a good justification. Much less would it be a long term method towards wealth. Getting a few thousand out of a bank account with Mind Control would probably result in an investigation within a few days and or the funds being take back. Either case, mission failure as far as getting the dough. Similarly, Mind Control is not a "get rich spell". It is an influence spell used to resolve conflicts that the game brings up, it is a method for the player to take action, it is a cool spell, it is a lot of things... But a "get rich quick" solution? Nah. Lets Play Money Making Game. - der menkey "Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter." ~ Ernest Hemingway |
Just be sure when you do this, all of your players don't have to take a heavy dose of suspension of disbelief. If your players devise an ingenious plan to steal money, which just so happens to include a mind control spell, I hardly think they should be penalized simply because a mind control spell was used. I can already think of one reason why someone would transfer all of their funds into another account, when they are changing banks. I did this a couple years back and the FBI wasn't swarming my house asking what happened to my money. If the players are able to make the transaction look legitimate to outside law enforcement agencies and other corporate entities, I don't think the "Ultimate GM Railroad NPC" should come along to stop them. I equate this to Obilivion, when ever you murdered someone, all of the guards "magically" knew who did it seconds after it happening. Even if the crime was done in complete solitude with just you and the NPC. Just because the GM knows something, doesn't mean every NPC agency does, or would even be suspicious of the activity if it was carried out discreetly and intelligently.
I am not saying it should be easy, or that the players actions should never be brought under justice. If I carry out a brilliant operation to steal an NPCs money with a mind control spell, I don't want to be slapped by the GM because he simply doesn't want it to happen. It is very likely that during one of the countless shadowruns the players do, such an opportunity will present itself. They will then decide whether it is worth the risk, and if they can get away with it. If they do so carelessly, then let the GMs hammer come down on them, but if it is carried out well, why would any GM metagame to stop the players. Just don't be surprised when your players metagame to defeat you.
While the GM is god and the metagame is his will, remember that there is almost certainly more players than GMs and that the meta-metagame is their will.
Having a character use Mind Control as a matter of course to regularly steal funds from people by just saying "gimme all your money" in whatever fashion is more than a bit different from a "brilliant plan" cooked up by the whole group.
"Gimme all your money" is the illicit version of Money Making Game that having a SINer with a shit hot resume get hired on by a corp with a fat salary is. Congratulations, you make a zillion nuyen a year. Care to roll up a Shadowrunner, please?
I don't slap players on the wrist for coming up with brilliant plans. Thats basically what makes the game fun. I do, however, slap players on the wrist for trying to use things as a Get Out of Jail Free card rather than scheming, using contacts, Role Playing (vs the obvious ROLL playing of relying on a spells written effects to just get you whatever it is that you wanted to get).
I think that someone's earlier comments were spot on when stating that Mind Control is an influence spell that can easily be duplicated in so many different ways and is best used with subtlety.
I do my damnedest during a game to avoid players using mechanics before roleplaying. Mechanics augment the roleplaying, not the other way around.
And MC is a prime candidate for the mechanics first type of meta/power gaming that I feel ruins most games.
- der menkey
"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~ Ernest Hemingway
"Gimme all your money" is the illicit version of Money Making Game that having a SINer with a shit hot resume get hired on by a corp with a fat salary is. Congratulations, you make a zillion nuyen a year. Care to roll up a Shadowrunner, please?
I don't slap players on the wrist for coming up with brilliant plans. Thats basically what makes the game fun. I do, however, slap players on the wrist for trying to use things as a Get Out of Jail Free card rather than scheming, using contacts, Role Playing (vs the obvious ROLL playing of relying on a spells written effects to just get you whatever it is that you wanted to get).
I think that someone's earlier comments were spot on when stating that Mind Control is an influence spell that can easily be duplicated in so many different ways and is best used with subtlety.
I do my damnedest during a game to avoid players using mechanics before roleplaying. Mechanics augment the roleplaying, not the other way around.
And MC is a prime candidate for the mechanics first type of meta/power gaming that I feel ruins most games.
- der menkey
"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~ Ernest Hemingway
| QUOTE (Blade @ Nov 9 2007, 08:26 AM) |
| If you're playing just to get game money, don't bother with all this. Just create an hyper specialist character with the SINner negative quality. Have him send his resume to the megacorps, and let him choose the best contract. Nice! Your character is now rich and successful. What about creating a Shadowrunner now? |
Shadowrunners are in the business of making money, in whatever means necessary. If they were able to rob people of their full bank account, and do so without getting caught, they would most certainly do so. Shadowrunners tend to be rather opportunistic. You attempted to use hyperbole to make an effective argument, but that argument doesn't at all apply to what was being discussed. It is an equivocal statement. Having a player obtain money through mind control spells is not analogous to creating a character to work for a corporation. The former is a dedicated shadowrunner taking advantage of someone, while the latter isn't a shadowrunner at all and is not taking advantage of anyone to gain money. It is completely out of the game's scope, while using a mind control spell to steal money, is not. Now, it is very possible a shadowrunner could be a corp security guard, spider, or some other position. However, this is very different from what you stated.
Ah, once again, we see the "roleplaying elitism" argument rear its ugly head.
Look, first of all, it's unfair to force players up to your "standard" of roleplay. That is a decision for the entire group to make, not the GM. Second and more importantly, who cares if it's "rollplay" or "roleplay", as long as people are having fun? I've seen too many games killed by roleplay-snobs who focused on that aspect so much, the game stopped being fun and became about interpersonal politics. Not to mention the attitudes were really not conducive to fun.
I can't count the number of player groups that built a legitimate business for their shadowrunning activities. And sometimes, shadowrunning involves credit fraud, extortion, mugging, money-laundering, and other illegal activities. And you *penalize* a character for doing so? Heck, the SINless have to commit credit fraud in order to buy a hot dog at Stuffer Shack! "Gimme all your money" is perfectly valid, especially if you're playing a street gang level campaign.
It's not my preferred playstyle, but you cannot go around judging other people's games. If they're having fun with it, then they're well ahead of many other games. So, the question is: do you focus on "roleplay", or do you focus on having fun?
Look, first of all, it's unfair to force players up to your "standard" of roleplay. That is a decision for the entire group to make, not the GM. Second and more importantly, who cares if it's "rollplay" or "roleplay", as long as people are having fun? I've seen too many games killed by roleplay-snobs who focused on that aspect so much, the game stopped being fun and became about interpersonal politics. Not to mention the attitudes were really not conducive to fun.
I can't count the number of player groups that built a legitimate business for their shadowrunning activities. And sometimes, shadowrunning involves credit fraud, extortion, mugging, money-laundering, and other illegal activities. And you *penalize* a character for doing so? Heck, the SINless have to commit credit fraud in order to buy a hot dog at Stuffer Shack! "Gimme all your money" is perfectly valid, especially if you're playing a street gang level campaign.
It's not my preferred playstyle, but you cannot go around judging other people's games. If they're having fun with it, then they're well ahead of many other games. So, the question is: do you focus on "roleplay", or do you focus on having fun?
On the original question, I tend to be on the "people know when you mess with their heads" side of the fence. That, combined with the fact that the other similar spells (in this case, Control Actions, Mind Probe, et al) state directly or imply pretty heavily that the target is aware, leads me to my interpretation.
If you're controlling their thoughts, and you aren't having them do anything out of the ordinary, they might have a tickle in the back of their mind and wonder why they're doing it, but they won't question it. If you're asking them to do something that they wouldn't normally do, they'll do it and feel like they don't know why they did it. If you ask them to do something dangerous or to the contrary, they may do it if you win the test, but they'll have the definite feeling that something is wrong.
On top of that, if they detect the spellcasting, I might roleplay them as knowing that they aren't in control if they're the type of person that would potentially know a little about magic or control spells (security guard, etc.). Joe Average that has only ever seen magic on the trid would get roleplayed as being confused and scared, probably.
If you're controlling their thoughts, and you aren't having them do anything out of the ordinary, they might have a tickle in the back of their mind and wonder why they're doing it, but they won't question it. If you're asking them to do something that they wouldn't normally do, they'll do it and feel like they don't know why they did it. If you ask them to do something dangerous or to the contrary, they may do it if you win the test, but they'll have the definite feeling that something is wrong.
On top of that, if they detect the spellcasting, I might roleplay them as knowing that they aren't in control if they're the type of person that would potentially know a little about magic or control spells (security guard, etc.). Joe Average that has only ever seen magic on the trid would get roleplayed as being confused and scared, probably.
Alter memory + control thoughts could be quite nasty. Alter memory "i've always opened the bank vault at 10:43pm for 3 minutes while I take a shit"
Control thoughts that night to do so, and take the cash.
Control thoughts that night to do so, and take the cash.
I still think Influence is a better spell. That one at least makes the person think it might've been their idea.
| QUOTE |
| Second and more importantly, who cares if it's "rollplay" or "roleplay", as long as people are having fun? I've seen too many games killed by roleplay-snobs who focused on that aspect so much, the game stopped being fun and became about interpersonal politics. Not to mention the attitudes were really not conducive to fun. |
"interpersonal politics" sounds like a White Wolf game. /vomit
So does Accountant - The Embezzlement.
Rollplay glosses over certain aspects of the game that are the building blocks for tension in stories. Rollplay is an acceptable method of playing and can be a great time. Mind Control is one of those spells that pulls back the layers to show the inner workings of a game and make rollplaying kind of lame. I don't really give a crap about roll play vs. role play as much as not playing craps. If I wanted to roll a bunch of d6's and hope for certain numbers to come up over and over and over and over I can drink some whiskey in the presence of women and a craps table and probably have a better time (and lose some money).
| QUOTE |
| "Gimme all your money" is perfectly valid, especially if you're playing a street gang level campaign. |
And in a street level game (or any game) Mind Controlling someone to get a few grand is not that big of a deal. Mind Controlling someone to get Screw You Money ™ is a horse of a different color. Once players get a disproportionate amount of money the reasons for the game to be start to dissipate. Forgive me for finding this problematic. I prefer to game than not to game.
| QUOTE |
| It's not my preferred playstyle, but you cannot go around judging other people's games. If they're having fun with it, then they're well ahead of many other games. So, the question is: do you focus on "roleplay", or do you focus on having fun? |
Well, the question at hand is more like "do people know if they are getting mind controlled".
Anyways, I certainly can, have, and will go around judging things. My opinion is just that - mine - and worth very little to most people. I do so unapologetically and offer a good explanation as to why I feel the way I do about these sorts of things. If people want to get up in arms, get offended or take things personally, that is up to them.
As far as what my games are about... Fun first.
If players scheme to get rich, they get rich if it works out for them. If they think that saying "I cast magic missile at the darkness", roll a bunch of dice, tell a bank teller to give them ¥500,000 and think that they got away with it... Well, I doubt that would go over very well. Mostly because that is boring. I'd say that the job of a GM is to provide meat to the bones of mechanical effects. Its a lot cooler to have them in a bank, MC'ing a teller and then have a HEAT style gunfight erupt outside as they leave thinking that they got away with it. Thats Shadowrun, if you ask me. The hacker suddenly has cameras and turrets to hack, the street samurai has tons of cops to shoot, a mage can stop messing around with MC and go about his business of summoning fatty spirits or slinging a fireball or two (or maybe even MCing cops outside for various purposes) and adepts can wall run dodging bullets to their heart's content. Quite the opposite of RP snobbery and sniveling interpersonal politics.
It amazes me how willing people are to make inferences about "my games".
Abusing MC, rolling dice and saying "I get x, y and/or z" just because a few dice say so is a little simplistic. I am of the opinion that rules are meant to be interpreted, sometimes extremely loosely, in the interest of having a good time. To not do so is folly.
MC poses tons of problems for a GM. Its one of those instances where a player believes that they have carte blanche to do whatever the giddamn they please. If a person being MC'ed has no way of knowing it, remembering it etc. a player has even more leeway. To a certain extent the players do have carte blanche. Its just a dicey situation (pun pun pun) that can take some pretty deft management on the part of a GM. Its a GM-beware type of a moment.
Some people do purely hands-off GMing. I try to stay hands off as much as possible and if anything, use influence to change the course of a game rather than hand waiving. Since MC, as written, is essentially allowing players to hand waive, I think its entirely appropriate to get a little antsy.
Lastly, eidolon.
Essentially thats kind of the way that I would see it working out. A Mind Controlled security guard would likely be incredibly confused as to why he felt compelled to do something that he normally would never do on his own... His eyes would widen and he might start to get terrified as his shaking hand unlocked the vault/door/whatever... He knows the implications of what he is doing he just feels strangely compelled to do so and is terrified by the possible results.
If you were to ask him later about the incident he wouldn't be able to give a straight answer as to why he did it in the first place.
"It just... I had no choice! I... I'm sorry..."
Sort of an out of body experience where you are doing something that you don't normally do, wouldn't think that you would do and/or have never done before... It's happening, you are doing it, you can't quite grasp it intellectually, but so what - it's getting done.
A forensic mage could easily take this sort of behavior as a sign of magical influence and start an astral investigation.
- der menkey
"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~ Ernest Hemingway
| QUOTE (nooneshowmonkey) |
| A forensic mage could easily take this sort of behavior as a sign of magical influence and start an astral investigation. |
Now you're talking.
Of course, even at force 6, it only takes 6 combat turns to erase the signature of the spell, so the astral investigation is likely to turn up squat.
| QUOTE (Tarantula) |
| Of course, even at force 6, it only takes 6 combat turns to erase the signature of the spell, so the astral investigation is likely to turn up squat. |
True, he might not find a signature, but being scrutinized by forensic-types, magical or otherwise, is bad. They might find something else, once they start looking.
| QUOTE (Tarantula) |
| Of course, even at force 6, it only takes 6 combat turns to erase the signature of the spell, so the astral investigation is likely to turn up squat. |
This is true, but it has been true for quite a long time. If you as GM ever want to use astral signatures against PCs, have stuff happen that keeps them from having time to erase it every single time they cast a spell. If you don't want to use it, let them erase it every time without even bothering to roll.
There isn't a roll to erase it, just a time expenditure.
| QUOTE (Tarantula) |
| There isn't a roll to erase it, just a time expenditure. |
Thinking SR3 rules, my fault. The point still remains though.
Oh, its not even combat turns, but complex actions. So long as that mage has is increased reflexes spell up, it only takes 1.5 combat turns to erase a force 6 signature. Or, less than one combat turn if they pick up astral chameleon. It really isn't ever a threat.
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