Cyberlimbs:
I totally agree. I can't remember the last time I built a PC with one, but as I GM I use them fairly often to add to flavor--something's wrong there.

Perception:
A lot of Shadowrun is all-or-nothing, and Perception is one of those things. This is a good thing and a bad thing. If you have a balanced group, you should be okay. Everyone should not be able to do everything. I'd keep the rules as-is but maybe add more ways to improve your Perception roll.

Dwarves:
Almost never see them. Having to buy expensive gear hurts and the slow running speed lies somewhere between comical and terrible when the secguards are chasing the team. "I don't have to outrun them, I just have to outrun you."
Karma:

Skill Points:
You're insane There are always places to put new skillpoints.


Other things I'd change:

Grenades. I use the alternate rules in the BBB, but make them a threat--they are.

Unarmed Combat and Initiative. Two guys with Martial Arts 6 fighting. One is mundane. One is wired to all hell. Still an even fight. Huh?

Perhaps instead of replacing the int stat with a skill, renaming the int to a stat called perception then. When reading the description of the int stat and its uses it is basically perception.

Another way to look at it is that int is never associated with i.q. it is more defined as perception and the adility to retain knowledge. I would imagine a character with int of 3 and a knowledge skill of logic puzzles would have a higher score on an i.q. test then someone with a int of 5.

Its the fact the shadowrun lumps alot of characteristics into one stat that in other systems would use 3 or 4 other stats. Quickness is another good example.

some systems have

Deftness
Speed
Movement
Dexterity and Quickness.

In shadowrun the single stat of quickness coveres them all from movement rate, modifying speeding in combat (initative), hand eye cordination, balanace and dexterity.

I hope the 4th edition is a long time in the making. Like most of you i'd imagine, I play with many house rules to make things more realistic. The recoil rules are way off. I can't see how a heavy pistol and a light pistol would have the same recoil or a HMG compaired to a LMG for that matter. As for the cyberlimbs, I totaly agree, but I have seen a few players use then. I think I've only seen one or two dwarves played, but that's probably more due to players preference. My groups have had lots of all other races though.
Skill points never go far enough for me. Perhaps you GM lets you get away with not needing them. Don't get me wrong I'm all for letting a player talk his way out of a situation, but if his negotiation skill is nonexistent, I'll take that into consideration when I give a NPCs reaction to the character. Personally I'd like to see the BeCKs system used for character generation. THe other system works, but it's too open for abuse.

Unfortunately, renaming the stat to perception raises other issues (after all, all Knowledges and alot of skills use Int as their Linked Attribute.) I once proposed a new stat of Perception, but adding new stats to SR changes the game too much. The best thing about 1st to 3rd (ok, maybe not the 'best', but definitely a nicety) is that the stats are the same 6 stats, making it 7 or 8 means changing far too much for us old timers.

Anyhows, I think a new skill called Perception is still best.

Sphynx

I like using Int for perception. As stated before, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

The racial cost for dwaves seems okay to me, as well. Though can't say I've ever seen anyone play one on a regular basis. If anything I thought the elf being on the same cost level of a troll was rather extreme but I play humans mostly, so what do I know? And again, it ain't broke, just seems kinda odd.

Much like everyone else, I STRONGLY agree about the cyberlimb thing. A while back I was toying w/ the idea of a merc-type and I thought it would cool for him to have a partial cyberarm. Then I looked at the costs and promptly chucked that idea right out the window.

The karma thing seems to be a personal preference depending on your game.

The skill points...well, lets just say I can NEVER have enough at char gen. That maybe your group, though. When I used to actually play (instead of GM) most of us wanted to specialize in one area (guns, magic, b&e, etc.) but be competent in as many as possible. The paranoia of being separated and needing that skill that only one teammate has was strong. Even if you weren't a superstar at it, having Car (or Demo, or Computer, or Electronics, or Negotiation, or whatever) 3 was a helluva lot better than having to default. ::shudders::

I go back and forth w/ the idea of folding B/R into computers and electronics just for simplicity's sake but then again, as someone else posted here, it doesn't make a whole lot of RL sense.

Actually, it does make a fair amount of sense --

Computer uses, well, computers
Electronics covers any sophisticated gadget that isn't directly goverened by computers

I would even advocate keeping Computer and Electronic as seperate skills to maintain an even distribution -- the same logic behind breaking "Firearms" into "Handgun, SMG, etc."

However, the Electronics B/R and Computer B/R does tend to blur together since they're using basically the same components but in different configurations.

As for the Vehicle B/R, I'd merge that into groups: Ground B/R, Airplane B/R, Helo B/R and then allow specializations. Just cause you can tweak a Honda Civic doesn't mean you know jack about servicing an Apache chopper.

What skill do you use for, say, installing a door? (new skill, "Basic Tech B/R: covers general handyman functions")

-Siege

Edit: Never mind, ignore my rambling on the Computer/Electronic thing -- I'm running low on sleep.

I'm for adjusting cyberlimbs. Could I get a look at those rules too, Jopp?

We've had a grand total of 3.5 cyberlimbs in our games, not counting NPCs. Phaeton has one cyber forearm to fit in a gyromount. Dot (the decker) had a full cyberarm that held a cranial deck, some memory, and a heavy pistol, I think. The latest was a character I made based on an NES game who had a pair of cyberarms and could deal 15M stun in melee.

My breakdown follows thusly:

Active skills:

Computers: computer use, programming
Electronics: anything electronic not covered by computers -- radar scanners, laser mics and so on.

B/R Electronics: this covers building, fixing, maintaining all things electronic, including computers.

Knowledge skills:
Computer Theory: This covers programming theory, history of programming and certainly a history of hardware -- the first computer was X and it used punch cards and so on.

Electronic Theory: This covers the concepts and principles behind circuitry, schematics and so on.

I have a tangential question about cyberlimbs. Why on earth would you want to buy up Quickness on a cyberlimb? For that matter, what difference does it make?

Does it allow you to have a higher Quickness-based skill when using that limb? Nope.

Does it increase your Reaction? Not really, unless they have split the scores for "arm/leg Reaction" and "rest of body Reaction".

Does it make you go faster? Arguably, if you've got a pair of cyberlegs, it might, but who the hell spends 200k+ to increase their Quickness by 1 or 2? Better by far to buy muscle replacement, or augmentation, or a hyperthyroid, or, or, or...

Seriously. What good do you all see in the benefit of "extra Quickness" for the arm, unless it's somehow meant to counteract negatives? (Example -- the elf samurai Twitch has a Quickness of 7. During a particularly nasty run, he gets an arm shredded by a pack of hellhounds and decides to get a cyberlimb implanted. But, alas, the doctors have cheated him! His cyberlimb is far slower than his impressive reflexes -- it only has a Quickness of 4. He needs to bribe the docs with an extra 90,000 to keep from becoming the slow-on-the-draw laughingstock of the Seattle shadows.)

Something's definitely rotten in the state of cyberlimb replacement.

Arguably, it could become important if the GM asks you to roll Quickness to catch something tossed to you, for example.

While hanging on by your non-cyber limb.

Ok, I'm reaching.

-Siege

Sphynx,
Thanks for throwing out all the suggestions for us to work on.

Increased Reflexes Spell converted into one spell: I'm voting no. Its plenty powerful as it is and I think its healthy for the game to keep them separated.

Dwarves: In 2003 so far we have 23 active players in our group and 42 active characters. 19 are human, 4 shapeshifters, 9 elves, 2 trolls, 1 minotaur, 1 oni, 2 orks, 1 gnome, & 3 dwarves. At least in our game it doesn't seem to be breeding a terribly disproportionate amount of dwarves.

Karma pool being too fast for humans: I think the majority of games don't get to the point where it really affects them, however I have no qualms about the suggestion to not spend karma when it comes time to increase the karma pool.

Fewer Skill points: Again... different style game. Our GM's (including myself) tend to make people roll skills on a lot of the things the characters want to do and default to an attribute at +4 if they don't have the skill. Our players always want more skills. I think the addition of Knowledge Skill points in character creation for SR3 was a great idea.

Cyberlimbs being worth it: I so agree. In our game, cyberlimbs are only taken as partial limbs for storing items and only on their off-hand or somewhere where the handicap of having a cyberlimb wont affect the character too badly.

Armor/Body on Vehicles: Agree. The "all or nothing" damage effects on vehicles seems to make it difficult for riggers or any character considering buying a vehicle period. I know we had a very long thread on this not long ago (or at least sometime this year) with a lot of good suggestions thrown in.

Perception as a skill: Sure...kinda... maybe. Brainstorm (okay...brain drizzle?) What if ... rolling Intelligence for perception tests is actually defaulting to a base attribute at +2 target numbers (instead of the normal +4). This way, if someone wanted to purchase a "Perception" skill, they could use this skill for perception checks at a -2 T.N. Just a thought.... hasn't been an issue in our game yet.

Aura Reading as a Knowledge Skill: nah. Hasn't posed a problem in our games. Plus, those extra successes on assensing tests can be very powerful. If a character wants to become a specialist at reading the auras, he/she will invest the active skill points. If its a knowledge skill, every mage will suddenly become a aura reading specialist. hmmmm... I suppose thats not inherently bad, but I probably wouldn't put it on my own list of changes.

Lose the Cyberimplant Combat Skill. I would like to see it stay separate. Its as different as fighting with a knife versus fighting unarmed. Consider allowing Forearm Snap Blades to fall under the Cyberimplant Weaponry skill.

Uhm, Game... if you combine all three Improved Reflexes spell into a single spell, it actually "weakens" it by requiring a higher Force to use if you want that +3D6 boost.

Before some of the newer metamagic techniques came out, I would have agreed that Aura Reading *should* have been a Knowledge Skill. It never functioned more than a Complimentary Skill. But with those new metamagic techniques, it's just fine as an Active Skill as it's on par with Centering and Divinging, even if a player never chooses to develop them.

And Aura Reading won't be raised either if you want to be good at it, you initiate and add your initiate rating to the roll.

Sphynx

One thing that we did in a game I was playing in for Perception was really cool. Give this a shot:

Buy Intelligence as a normal stat. After points are purchased, double the points and split Intelligence into two different stats, Perception and Logic. You then allocate the points you have from Intelligence to these. Perception counts towards perception checks and Logic counts towards the number of knowledge skills you start with and it is the stat that is linked to Intelligence skills.

Example

Mr. Quick the street sam isn’t the sharpest of guys, but he has the eyes of a hawk. He buys 4 points of Intelligence and then splits that into a Perception of 6 and Logic of 2. When buying skills liked to Intelligence he uses his Logic stat of 2, but when making Perception checks, he has 6 dice to roll with.

That's a really interesting house rule, Grey. I like it! I'm always running out of Knowledge Skill points (which just makes me even more baffled by Sphynx), so that would be a nice option!

I dunno... It seems to open up quite a lot options of unhealthy tweaking.

Putting caps on it and making sure that things don't get too tweaky is up to the GM. I usually only let there be a max of 4 points between the two stats though. Intel 6 could be Perception 8 and Logic 4.

We were just trying to get away from the idea that every Street Sam out there was a genius with an Intel of 6 just so he could be perceptive.

It's hard for me to believe that there are too many dwarf characters in any SR game. As a previous poster said, try running from any other type of meta in a fight and Stubbylegs Proudbeard will be wishing he had legs the length of his body or a rigger extraction. If you can't get away, it doesn't matter how tough one is. After running down your players a few times, someone might get the bright idea to diversify the team.

Are you guys playing with racism in your game? If you use the rules for how NPC's are predisposed to interact with the PC's, you should have quite a few people turn up with a issue with dwarves. That should affect things a bit, so that everyone doesn't want to play the same thing.

Custom-made gear, as someone previously said, would be another bitch. Gear (including clothes, guns, vehicles, etc.) would all have to be custom-made. This should mean that the little folk should have a bitch of a time trying to get stuff as quickly as their larger more proportionate cousins. After a while, the PC's might start getting tired of a one week delay, rather than the "in stock, come and get it approach". Just a thought.

The world isn't set up for small things either. Sure, there's bound to be a bar where dwarves need not fear being the brunt of jokes and where the stools are actually easy to sit in and don't require a climbing skill. But, what about the 97% other businesses in the world? Oops, need someone to jack a car and pick up the team under fire across the street? Guess you can't rely on the dwarf, unless they all work in unison (one on the pedals, one on the steering column, etc). Trying to get button 158 pushed in the elevator? (old joke, couldn't resist) Basically, the dwarf has a height problem and that should be an obstacle to be used against the party.

Why are there so many dwarves to begin with? There are more humans in the world of Shadowrun than dwarves. It wouldn't hurt to follow some of the guidelines in the books on racial types. It will be more believable and it might be fun if everyone isn't the same thing. That just sounds weird... party of 9 and 6 of them are dwarves?! Egad man, next time a player asks to be a dwarf, you should say, "how about something else this time?" If that doesn't work, just tell him that the next run will have to do with an angry mob of dwarf chuckers.

I like that Perception/Logic rule, Grey. I'm curious about how far you take it, though. Does the character maintain the Intelligence stat for anything, or is it "replaced" for all intents and purposes by the sub-stats?

And what happens when someone gets a cerebral booster, or an Increase Intelligence spell? Do they split those points between the two stats as they wish, or are they applied equally or according to some other rule?

Something tells me I should open a new thread for this topic, I'm gunna do that now...

Umm... Isn't regeneration the only real redeeming factor of being a shifter?

Yep, but I treat shapeshift like the spell so they only have 6 attributes to split their points with, and gain the bonuses in the chart for whichever form they're in. Regnerate is more than a 'redeeming factor', it's completely out of balance, you have to either kill the PC or accept that he's got no injuries every round. Like the Body/Armour on drones, you either kill it, or it bounces.

Sphynx

Actually, the last two characters I've played have had cyberarms... but mostly to store things like a skillsoft jukebox, cyberholsters, cybergun... alot of utility stuff.

Re: b/r and technical skills.

I basically came up with those particular fixes off the top of my head, but in general I think there are too many such skills and that a lot of them can be combined to make the game easier to play and more realistic.

Take computers / computer b/r. Most people who can use computers don't really have any skill in it at all. Like car skill, usually you don't need it. They know specific applications, but very little in general. So most real people might have a rating one or two computer skill, and another skill in thier job which lets them do job related computer tasks. Most people familiar with computers can just barely set up a new computer, or install some ram they order from whoever bought their computer from or thier more knowledgable freind picked out. On the other hand almost all people with a good amount of skill in computer use have swapped components, and could probably muddle through building one from parts. If it was "shadowrun the tech support rpg" it would make sense to have two skills, but it is "shadowrun cyberpunk/fantasy/caper flik rpg".

I find it very problematic that shadowrun does such a mediocre job of dealing with locks and alarms. It is a breaking and entering game! To be able to defeat all common locks you need Stealth (I beleive the books suggests this for mechanical locks) Electronics (for electronic locks and alarms) and Electronics b/r (also for electronic locks and alarms). Seems like in a game like shadowrun there should be one skill to cover these highly related tasks and that we might expect specialists in sneaking or lockpicking to show up and that lumping the skills together is a bad idea (whereas we don't care about the distinction between computer system builders and email support people). If electronics and security overlap a bit it isnt a big problem. Firstly it seems reasonable. Secondly the person with electronics could concentrate thier security to mechanical to avoid paying for some of the overlap, or could let one of the skills lag.

I also disliked how they split up all the combat skills for third edition. I think it is unrealistic, doesnt change the gameplay much, irritates people during charachter creation, and reduces cinematic possibilities. Almost nobody can pick up a weapon and start fighting with it competently, almost nobody can carry a knife around all the time because it is small but pick up a sword or staff for a big fight.


Re: skillweb

Part of what I liked about the skillweb was that it would go up to really ridiculous target numbers. In general if you defaulted that far you were better off defaulting from an attribute so it was self limiting, but perhaps there should be a maximum for which defaulting is possible (+6 or beyond which the skill simply does not apply. I think it was a really cool system. A simple rule with complex results all in one little diagram.

An opposite type of rule is the complementary skill one. Every possible test needs its own special rule as to what if any complementary skill can apply, and then it makes you roll a whole separate time with different rules (half sucesses, but only if you also get a real success). A very complex rule.


Re: cyberlimbs

Personally I think that cyberlimbs should be very strong, but not particularly quick. That fits well with how I remember them in the movies. People with mechanical hands are always crushing things with them. A civillian cyberlimb would probably have a governer of some sort reducing its strength to match the individual and for safety, but this sort of thing could be easily hacked. Child sized and other special limbs could, of course, have different stats.

Fewer skill points? What the hell are you smoking? Do you like making characters who use one type of weapon, or something?

Voorhees: Yes, I do limit myself to 1 weapon skill, most people in life don't even have that. Regardless, I come from 2nd Ed where you always had 10 fewer skill points, and still had plenty despite the fact you had to buy languages or any knowledges with the same points. I also come from games wher 2 or 3 in skills you're not extremely proficient in is ok.

End Of The Line F: Don't bring reality into this, the splitting was for game balance, not realism. To make it so Sammie type characters had as much skils to put their points into as Magic types. If they wanted realism, Computers would be broken into Applications, Operating Systems, Software writing, etc. But currently, since those are all the same skill, you can write programs just as well as you can use Outlook. This is true of all skills, and since you could (in 2nd Ed) 'specialize' to be a bit better in pistols than in any others (which left a 4 skill level difference), then a person could choose to be good in pistols and suck in other areas, so no, your 'real world' analogy doesn't help at all, and 3rd Ed isn't that much better, even if 'real world' was a factor in the decision making process.

Sphynx

I'd be happy if firearms were simply split into larger groups, but not a single group of skills. Something like Handguns (Pistols and SMGs), Rifles (Assault Rifles, Shotguns, Rifles), Heavy Weapons (Gunnery, Heavy Weapons and Launch Weapons), and Special Weapons (Flamethrowers and Bracer Guns).

First of all, I don't think the rules need a major overhaul at this time. Maybe in a few years... But, for the sake of discussion:

When the SMG in question looks more like this or this, then Handguns is a good skill for it. When it looks like this, this, or this, Rifles is more appropriate.

Which is why I'd rather divide them so that Handguns would include Pistols and Machine Pistols and any SMGs meant to be fired single-handed without a stock, while Rifles would include the rest of the SMGs, ARs, Shotguns and Rifles, as well as LMGs and MMGs when fired from the shoulder or a bipod.

But I'm still for less Firearms skills, so we're on the same lines.

On cyberlimbs, I totally agree. They should be made more worth while. I, too, have fiddled around with the numbers a bit, but since no player was interested in them I never made any house rules about them.

On Perception/Intelligence, I'd go with a Complementary (Active) skill, linked perhaps to Willpower?

On the Increased Reflexes spell, I agree that it should be rolled into one spell. And have done so already in my games.

No problem with Dwarves in my games.

Exponential Karma Pool, like many have already suggested, works wonders. First of all, getting Karma Pool doesn't mean you don't get Good Karma. Secondly, it takes 10 GK to get the first KP point, then 20 more, then 30 more, 40 more, etc. Makes them treasure the few points a lot more...

I multiply vehicle Body by 3 for all Damage Resistance tests. This, coupled with no "AV" small arms ammunition and overall saner penetration rules, makes vehicles a lot less All or Nothing. If you want to make the whole thing more consistant, multiply Body by 2 vs non-AV attacks (half Power, -1 DL, double Body).

Seriously disagree on the Skill points. Unless of course you want to reduce Resources and Attributes, too.

And last but not least, I totally agree on the book binders. My SR3 book has not seen much use, it's only 2½ years old, and I've always handled it with care (opening it only enough to see the text, keeping the back as closed as I can), and it's still falling apart, fast. I can't even look at the Adept Powers section anymore without pages falling out.

The LMG would probably end up getting lumped into "Heavy Weapons" if you follow Doc Funk's suggestion. Which isn't a bad one when you look at the relative similarities involved.

-Siege

Ehh... LMGs don't recoil anywhere near as much as ARs. LMGs fire AR ammunition but weigh a lot more. I know the RK-62/KK62 pair isn't exactly like every other AR/LMG pair in the world, but it's pretty average, and it just so happens I've fired both, a lot. Someone with M16/M249 experience can comment on those.

The KK62 doesn't recoil a damn. It's aimed exactly like the RK62. The range envelope is almost identical. It has to be handled a bit differently because it's belt fed, but that doesn't matter when shooting. Until you reload, it's basically an RK62 on a bipod. The difference between a bolt-action rifle and an AR is at least as big as that between an AR and an LMG.

And firing an LMG on a bipod or from the shoulder sure as hell isn't anything like vehicle gunnery, firing GLs or LAWs, etc. If it has to be put into SOME category, it has to be Rifles. Not that I'd pack in Gunnery with Launch Weapons anyway -- I've got Gunnery and Rocket/GL as separate skills, with guided missiles using Gunnery.

Having that many skills still defeats the basic principle of the proposed change. If you're going to nitpick about what's what within a specific group of skills, you might as well just continue splitting up all the other ones. Computers, for instance, including decking, programming, or cybernetics even though all three are vastly different abilities... especially compared to the differences between firing a machine gun on a bipod/tripod and gunnery.

You're also ignoring the power of specialization; just because you don't have to specialize, it doesn't mean that specialization isn't a wise decision.

I'd advocate ignoring the specialization of specific weapons (use the optional rule in Cannon Companion for that; the one that brings back the Concentration/Specialization rules of previous editions). Instead, I'd allow specializations in smaller groups of firearms within the larger ones. Heavy Weapons (Machine Guns), Handguns (Heavy Pistols), Rifles (Shotguns), Heavy Weapons (Gunnery), and so on and so forth. If you hav e a reason to want to waste karma improving a broad skill to higher levels, then you have a reason to do so. If not, you're going to be much better off with a little specialization... and if you do have to use another weapon in the same broad group, you don't have to suffer a TN penalty to do so, just fewer dice.

I've always found the current means of specialization rather stupid and biased. You have to specialize in a specific weapon with Pistols, but you can specialize in a broad skillgroup like Decking (instead of a specific utility), Spellcasting (instead of a specific spell), and Plastic Explosives (instead of a specific compound).

But oh well.

Yeah, as a suggestion for a canon rule, Handguns/Rifles/Heavy Weapons would be fine. I'd just continue splitting Gunnery and Rockets/GLs for my games, because they're so completely apart (I can fire a LAW quite accurately, but I haven't got a fricken clue how to fire a cannon on a tank) in my mind.

But it is true that you could reason that all other skills should be split up just like Firearms -- I'm sure there are many things about Computers you might not know anything even if you were one of the world's best programmers. But that's just how the game goes, it is incredibly biased against combat skills for game balance reasons.

Changes for 4th Ed:

A better game system. Like Fuzion/Gurps/Twilight....

Since that is not likely:

Perception as a skill is nice! Solves the need to have a high IQ just to make those tests. And given that those are often live or die stuff....

Dwarfs: All Metas should be more costly! Or the old rule for an allergie reinstated. There are far to many of the bugger in most games!

Skills: I would go with a slightly simplyfied group:

Pistol
MPi
Rifles (includes Rifles, Assault Rifles and Shotguns)
MG (includes LMG and GPMG)
Heavy Weapons


Cyberlimbs should IMHO be aquired at the characters current, unaugmented (Bioware counts as augmented here) strength level. It just makes sense to have a 1:1 replacement as the standard part (makes getting used to the stuff easier)


Michael

The reason for the split I think was the idea that SR tends to be DnD with guns.

So to keep game balance (ack spit), they broke the weapons into sub-groups to keep the gun bunnies on a slower progression and not radically dangerous across the board.

Since the rabid gun-bunnies didn't like all that "talking" stuff, they rolled the Etiquettes into the same skill for similar logic.

However, the point is valid: Computers or Electronics or Biotech are all broadly encompassing skills that could reasonably and intelligently broken into smaller, more believe sub-groups.

But given the relatively common gripes about not enough skill points as it stands, I'm not sure that futher fragmenting the system would be a good idea from a practical, playable standard.

-Siege

There was another thread about effective skill levels.

The problem is some players believe that if you're going to be proficient using a skill, having a rating less than 6 in your primary focus seems required.

I honestly don't believe the posted skill rankings as canon suggests -- 3, maybe 4 is average? Trying to imagine a basic services tech fumbling through the day with a TN of 4 seems terrifying in its own right.

Now, if you could somehow modify the TNs on a job -- skills of 3 to 4 aren't nearly as irritating.

-Siege

For actions with a Base Time, -1 TN for every doubling of the Base Time? Max mod = ½ skill, min 2?

I just use TN 2 for all the really mundane, everyday jobs that people might have to do. With a skill of 4, that's a whopping 0.08% chance of failing.

And when someone does something for a living, I generally give them a skill higher than 4. It's just that Shadowrunners need a whole lot of skills, so they aren't likely to have all those skills very high.

And I also happen to think that a Karma-based creation system might be a better idea, although I will admit that since it has more numbers and other variables to fiddle with, it is more susceptible to min/maxing. Which is either a good thing or a bad thing, depending on whether you are with Sphynx or against him. And then there'd be no need to fragment the non-combat skills any further, which really might screw with game balance.

Heh.

-Siege

People with jobs would probably tend toward high specializations in the areas where they need to work constantly, probably in the 5 or 6 range, going by the book descriptions of the skills. I also like the idea of being able to increase the time required to get a lower TN (I like the idea of an exponential curve like x2 time = -1, x4 time = -2, x8 time = -3, x16 time = -4, etc., with a cap of some sort). Useless for those skills which are time sensitive (biotech, combat, etc.) but for the skills which are less so (some computer tests (programming, searches), most B/R skills) it'd work well.

How about the Home Ground edge for their workplace? Everyone has some place they're familiar enough with to work more comfortably in...

here's a rule in need of som errata: jumping. TN 4, 2 meters straight up. apparently, the Awakening lowered earth's gravitational pull!