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Sphynx
After trying to get all the errata changes down pact, I noticed that the changes to the Erratas recently haven't been erratas (something I define as errors in the printing), but rule changes instead. Any chance this is leading up to a 4th Edition soon? nyahnyah.gif

Anyhows, would like to hear what changes people would like to see in a 4th Edition (should that ever happen). Following is my list.... wink.gif

Perception as a skill instead of hanging onto Intelligence. I mean, seriously, that's very old, and a Perception skill has a ton of possible specializations from Ambushes, to Spotting or Details. Linking it to Intelligence would be cool.

Increased Reflexes Spell converted into a single spell. I'm sure I say this plenty, but it's the last spell to not be conformed to the 'standard' from the days when each level of an Attribute was its own spell, and each offense spell had it's own damage level.

Binders that bind. I'm so sick of only having one book that the pages fall out instead of the book being damaged from excessive use. I don't know a single SR player that wouldn't pay 5 extrbucks for the core book if they knew it wouldn't just fall apart.

Cyberlimbs being worth it. For a genre where cyberlimbs are suppose to be common amongst PCs, Shadowrun does its best to make sure they don't exist. I've yet to see a PC who gets the limb (except for some rigger/deckers who use it as a non-droppable sack to store their gear in). The Street Sam type character who should be getting it (according to my view of the Genre at least) won't get it because their metal limb is so much weaker and too damn expensive to make it as strong/quick as the meat-parts of their bodies.

Dwarves and Priority Forgive me for saying this, as a most regular player of dwarves, it actually pains me to say this, but they should be the most expensive race. Actually, all races should be just as expensive, Priority C at least. I realize the desite to have more dwarves/orcs due to commonality in the world, but 90% of the players I've played with go dwarf. I don't even recall the last time I had a human player in one of my games, and in the game I play in, it's 6 dwarves, 1 troll and 2 elves.

Karma Pool is to fast for Humans Although being a good reason to play a human (big Karma Pool), it's the biggest reason people don't play humans in my games. Too much karma has to go into it. 1/20 is perfect, 1/10 is just too much lost karma. I'd actually recommend 1/20 for humans, 1/30 for non-humans.

Armour/Body on Vehicles Is it just me or does it seem pointless to have a Body on a vehicle? Bullets either bounce, or destroy, cars can't soak at all. Personally we've recently implemented a House rule to add Armour to Body for resisting (since a low body is important for other calculations), and made armour into non-hardened.

Fewer skill points. Heh, that had to raise eyebrows, the 'muchkin' saying fewer skill points. But seriously, I can't even come up with enough active skills I want to fill up more than 27 points, and that's Priority E. Of course, this only applies to the priority system, in the BP system, things work out nicely.

Anyhows, those are some of the basics. Looking foward to seeing what other people think (including flames on my own thoughts) nyahnyah.gif

Sphynx
Siege
Interesting.

Perception:

My group house-rules it thusly: characters may buy "Alertness" as a knowledge skill and specialize it as they choose. It is then applied as a complimentary bonus to perception rolls. The theory being you can be taught to be observant.

Cyberlimbs:

I'll give you that one. Of course, how many players really want to buy second and third-hand, recycled 'ware that probably would be seen a lot more regularly? But then again, a lot of the prices in SR are borderline absurd. A spare magazine is 5 nuyen, cheaper on the street. Buying a spare magazine in America today runs between 20-30 dollars, allowing for location and whatnot.

Fewer skill points:

Waaah. I usually don't have enough. If you actually have spare points, buy "Mixed Drinks" or "Italian Cooking" as active skills.

-Siege
Lilt
Perception: IMHO Intelligence is fine for preception.

Increace Reflexes: Quick background check on Increace Reflexes: What was it like in 2nd ed? (or whatever equivalent spell there was)

Books: My books are fine, not fallen apart at-all.

Cyberlimbs: I agree that cyberlimbs are too weak. It'd help if they made the base strength higher (by about 2 points or so).

Dwarves: I'd agree that dwarves a re a bit too powerful. I think they're OK where they are (5 pts/priority D) but I'd personally reduce the +2 str to +1 and the bonus body dice for toxins/disieses from +2 to +1.

Human Karma: You could always play what I have done in the past, which is that the points don't actually go into karma but the karma pool rating still increaces. IE a Human with 20 karma has 20 spendable karma and a karma pool of 3.

Vehicle Armour: Anybody here an expert on vehicular armour etc? It strikes me that how thick the armour is is the most important factor for determining if a vehicle can take a hit. I agree that it is a bit all or nothing, but I do think it should be possible to proof vehicles against small-arms.

Skill points: Not enough? WTF? Do you just buy Sorcery and Etiquette? I can't say I've ever had enough skill points to get everything I have wanted at a good level.
Artemis
Kinko's will bind your book up better than ever for a cheap enough price. But yes, everyone I know hs ran into that same problem. Eh... exclusing Lilt.

The karma thing is yet another thing that can make mfb happy in the unbalance between humanity and metahumanity. Since humans have to pay more, they are equalized out for their having more karma pool in the longterm. Doesn't seem so bad to me.

Cyberlimbs could stand to be a little more reasonable... although they provide pretty useful abilities as they stand currently. I just wish the top limit on their physical stats could be raised somewhat higher for those who have the extra nuyen to spend.

I'd have to disagree on the skill point thing, I always wish I had more. I'm a min-maxer, so usually I have a hand full of skills that I am very efficient at. For a realistic game, a GM may want to impliment an optional rule that limits characters to 1 or 2 exceptional skills that reach six, and the others limited to 4 or 5. Or... perhaps the game needs to adjust it's definitions of what ratings define a genius in a specific field. 6 seems to be the generic bar in this game, for attributes, skills, spells... so why not make 12 the genius level? Would explain why people usually get there by specializing in a particular field within whatever that study or practice is. A doctor who is a wiz in Longterm Care as opposed to a paramedic who is an expert at First Aid. Personally I think raising the bar is better than limiting players to lower skills.
Sphynx
27 skill points goes a long way. That's 5 seperate skills at 5+ if you so choose. (I won't complain if they keep the numbers high, but I'll never take higher than the lowest priority available for skills either then)

BTW, other things....

Aura Reading as a Knowledge instead of an Active Skill. Seriously, of all the skills, that's got the 'rules' of a knowledge, and should be that if Intelligence is the roll (or make Aura Reading the roll instead of Intelligence).

Lose the CyberImplant Combat skill. Considering the huge differences in using Forearm Snap Blades vs CyberSpurs, or claws instead of fingernail clawing.... maybe the CyberImplant combat is better left out of the next edition.

Sphynx
mfb
most of my characters have Stealth, which acts as a complimentary skill to Perception tests. an actual Perception skill would be nice, but it's not a huge issue for me.

sphynx, i think your games might not be the norm. honestly, i've only seen ten or so dwarven characters in seven years of SR.

as for humans' karma pool, i'm glad to put that tenth point in. my character tends to get shot at a lot, though. hell, very recently, my char survived an attack that would have killed him, at starting level--he flat out would not have had enough dice to soak it below D+4. the only reason i survived it was because i've got a total karma pool of 22; i spent nearly all of it buying dice and rerolls. please, please don't take away my precioussss karma pool.

i very, very definitely agree, concerning cyberlimbs. i would suggest these as a starting point. on SL, i don't play chars with cyberlimbs in games which don't use those rules. (on the other hand, i've got very few chars with cyberlimbs.)
Hot Wheels
Dwarves have lots of ethnic advantages but this is offset by the fact they have to pay more to get dwarven sized gear, cutting into initial resources.
Ol' Scratch
Too many skill points? You're insane.

I would list all of the changes I'd make, but that would quickly get too long. I use an exhaustive list of house rules in my games.

I do agree with most of your list though (with the skill point one being some kind of delusional hallucination on your part or something -- I'd like some of whatever you're smoking, please). The only other one that I disagree with is Dwarves. What they need to do is give them a penalty to help balance them out. I think Body and Strength are insanely backwards the way they currently are; it should be Body +2 and Strength +1 if anything. I'd then either drop the Willpower bonus altogether or add a penalty to Quickness (a Running Modifier penalty isn't enough; even if their hand-eye coordination is decent, they're still short, stalky, and bulky). I'd lean more towards the Quickness penalty, myself.

Of course, something tells me you guys also ignore the +10% cost to most of their equipment (particularly cyberware, bioware, and armor/clothing), too. Not that I blame you, it's a pretty rule in my opinion. I'd replace it with something like nearsightededness (-1 to Perception tests, including Astral Perception) or maybe a social TN penalty for their innate grumpiness.

Then again, I'd also advocate a casual Social TN penalty for Trolls and Orks instead of a Charisma penalty, too. But that's just me. I don't see why a Trol or Ork would have trouble with Intimidation or conjuring spirits just because they're not eye candy. I'd also kill off the Elf's bonus and give then a Social TN bonus. Maybe just replace both with Ugly & Doesn't Care/Good Looking & Knows It style mods. Something like that.

Anyway, the only thing a cyberlimb is good for under the current rules is as a storage device, and then only for average to low-Strength/Quickness characters. For the one archetype that should have it most often, it's one of the worst implant they can possibly get.
Rev
Bah, I wish they would go back towards the 2nd ed skill system a bit.

The skillweb rocked. Firarms, Armed, Heavy Weapons and Unarmed with concentrations and specializations worked great.


Merge electronics/electronics b/r, computer/computer b/r, merge vehicle b/r's into ground vehicle b/r, water vehicle b/r and air vehicle b/r. Add security b/r (yes it overlapps with electronics a bit, who cares!).


FIX CYBERLIMBS! Almost every picture in the book has somebody with a cyberlimb! Cyberlimb strength should start at the racial limit and it should not take the same CF to armor a head that it does to armor a leg!


Just make karma pool not take karma. Its easier to keep track of that way too. For every 1 good karma you get .1/.05 karma pool. No more remembering to subtract every once in a while.


Make rigger 4 less ludicrously complex. Nobody needs rules for making aircraft carriers.
Dogsoup
Stuff I agree on:

Cyberlimbs:
I go by -50%nuyen.gif and -20% Ess. cost, but Im afraid I ripped the idea off someone else on this board.
Aura Reading:
Yep yep, since I've interpreted the Assensing roll as not even getting a default mod if you lack the Aura reading skill. Burning active skill points on A.R. just seemed... dumb, really.
Cybercombat Skill:
I've always been surly about razors and spurs not beeing rolled into Unarmed Combat, but I guess I just want to eat the cake and have it...

Stuff I don't agree on:

Perception
Using INT is comfy. And there's the Perceptive edge if we want more dice.
Dwarves:
In our history of gaming, I think we've never had one Dwarf. I don't even think we've been close: I think they're too "vanilla", compared to humans and the other metas, and because of that I've always rationalized their relative advantages as being "compensation" for playing them...
Human Karma Pool Issue:
You're mad, bonkers, out there nyahnyah.gif
Fewer Skill Points
There's always one more crucial skill.

Shrugs:

Vehicle Armour/Body
Maybe. The "die or don't" effect hasn't come up in our games. Neither has much vehicle combat when I think about it.
KosherPickle
QUOTE (Sphynx)
Dwarves and Priority  Forgive me for saying this, as a most regular player of dwarves, it actually pains me to say this, but they should be the most expensive race.  Actually, all races should be just as expensive, Priority C at least.  I realize the desite to have more dwarves/orcs due to commonality in the world, but 90% of the players I've played with go dwarf.  I don't even recall the last time I had a human player in one of my games, and in the game I play in, it's 6 dwarves, 1 troll and 2 elves.

You need to make your players flee more often. Once they start running, they'll notice that the x2 running multiplier can leave them in a world of hurt. They'll start checking out their other options fairly soon after that.
Abstruse
The skill web was incredibly complex. Any rule that's simple enough that you don't have to look at a chart is a GOOD thing (look at playing D&D since they fixed the THAC0 problem and you'll see what I mean). Besides, I like breaking up the Firearms skill. It's much more realistic. Would you be able to fire an assault rifle because you can fire a little handgun? Sure, the parts are similar. Would you be just as good? Hell no. The recoil is different, it's not even remotely the same to handle, and firing a rifle is just NOT the same as firing a handgun. Same with a shotgun. Shotguns are an entirely different beast from a rifle because of the way they work. And don't get me started on the difference between using a sword and using a billy club/nightstick/whatever you want to call it. Totally different weapon, totally different tactics. It's much more realistic (What's that? Realistic in Shadowrun rules?! Trust me, it's possible!) the way it is now than the old way.

The Abstruse One
mfb
parts of the skill system are ridiculous. for instance, the difference between 'rifles' and 'assault rifles'.
Wonazer
QUOTE (Rev)
Merge electronics/electronics b/r, computer/computer b/r, merge vehicle b/r's into ground vehicle b/r, water vehicle b/r and air vehicle b/r.  Add security b/r (yes it overlapps with electronics a bit, who cares!).
----------
Just make karma pool not take karma.  Its easier to keep track of that way too.  For every 1 good karma you get .1/.05 karma pool.  No more remembering to subtract every once in a while.

Just a note about the B/R combines you suggest. I work on computers. Hardware and Software. In my work I have found a HUGE amount of people that can operate their computer but would faint if asked to change their RAM. (I got tons of business doing that for those people...)

As for Karma I agree, but I have a slightly different approach.
Good Karma -- Karma Pool
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10 -- 1
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20 -- 2

Little math needs to be done. Round the Karma Pool off the same way you do Essence/Magic. If you have 4.6 Essence, you have 4 Magic. If you have 46 Good Karma, as a human you would have 4 Karma Pool. No one complains about losing karma (although, I suggest an indepth evaluation of how much karma you award).
Fortune
QUOTE (Nindaru)
If you have 46 Good Karma, as a human you would have 4 Karma Pool.

If a human had 46 Good Karma, he should have 5 Karma Pool, assuming he hasn't permanently burned any. smile.gif
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (Sphynx)
After trying to get all the errata changes down pact, I noticed that the changes to the Erratas recently haven't been erratas (something I define as errors in the printing), but rule changes instead. Any chance this is leading up to a 4th Edition soon?  nyahnyah.gif

Oh, Jesus, I hope not. That would be one of the bigger fuckups that I could see happening at this point.
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Rev)
The skillweb rocked.

Somewhere I found a skill web based off 3rd edition. I allow players to choose what method they want to default with before each defaulting attempt until such time as they actually seem to have memorized the web. None have yet memorized the web.
Zolhex
Ok some of the changes on here are ok others I disagree with but mainly I'll go to the cyber limb question.

Page 33 M&M second column under limitations it says: Each cyberlimb can be enhanced to have a higher strength, though enhancing a limb by more than 3 points requires additional essance loss and nuyen because the arm's mountings must be reinforced.

So in other words cyberlimbs on a human/elf start at 4 ork/dwarf start at 6 troll start at 8 (M&M p. 33 bottom of first column) and get an additional 3 for free.

So I think cyberlimbs are fine with the exception of essance cost. Come on now both synthetic and obvious cost the same? Add to that cyberlimbs have been around for 13+ years and no one has ever been able to make a better one?
Dim Sum
QUOTE (Sphynx)
After trying to get all the errata changes down pact, I noticed that the changes to the Erratas recently haven't been erratas (something I define as errors in the printing), but rule changes instead. Any chance this is leading up to a 4th Edition soon? nyahnyah.gif

Ack, regular errata sheets (even where rules are revised) are fine but I am NOT looking forward to a 4th edition of SR any time soon unless it can be justified. One of the reasons I hate WotC and D&D is the number of revisions that come out and the short intervals between them. SR has been just nice.
Wonazer
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Nindaru @ Nov 26 2003, 01:35 PM)
If you have 46 Good Karma, as a human you would have 4 Karma Pool.

If a human had 46 Good Karma, he should have 5 Karma Pool, assuming he hasn't permanently burned any. smile.gif

You are right. I had forgotten about the initial karma all characters are given.
Tanka
So... SR 3.5, anyone? We can take everything good about SR3 and do away with it completely! Yay!
Adam
QUOTE (Dim Sum)
One of the reasons I hate WotC and D&D is the number of revisions that come out and the short intervals between them. SR has been just nice.

Much as I don't want to get dragged into the inevitable "This company does it the right way!" pissing match, both TSR/WotC and FASA/FanPro have gone much longer without new editions than many other companies do - WotC/TSR over 10 years from second to third edition D&D, FASA six years from SR2 to SR3, and SR3 has been out five years now.

Many other companies revise regularly every 2-4 years to keep sales fresh.

Not saying that either way is right or wrong, but both D&D in the "old days" and Shadowrun currently are both abnormalities.
mfb
indeed. probably part of the reason they both have such a strong following. i'm tempted to say that SR is the second most popular RPG in the world (especially if you count all those freakin' germans), but i don't have any numbers to back that up.

also, E.O.T.L.F. said something about not having to pay for your first 3 points of cyberlimb improvement. i know he's wrong, but i don't have my books here. someone please find the page--i believe that in the cyberlimb list, it gives the price for points 1-3, and then gives a seperate listing for points 4+.
Dim Sum
QUOTE (Adam)
Much as I don't want to get dragged into the inevitable "This company does it the right way!" pissing match, both TSR/WotC and FASA/FanPro have gone much longer without new editions than many other companies do - WotC/TSR over 10 years from second to third edition D&D, FASA six years from SR2 to SR3, and SR3 has been out five years now.

Many other companies revise regularly every 2-4 years to keep sales fresh.

Not saying that either way is right or wrong, but both D&D in the "old days" and Shadowrun currently are both abnormalities.

I know what you mean, Adam. I don't mean to say one company is better than the other - there are gaming companies who don't publish new editions at all despite player feedback and just end up with a lousy product.

My take on the whole thang is if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If it's a little broke, release errata. If there's been enough errata released, it justifies a new edition. If they want to change a major part of the system to make the game better (as with SR2 to SR3), I'm all for a new edition. But when you've just recently released a new and playable edition (like D&D 3rd ed), then come with version 3.5 months (a year?) down the line and there's now talk of a 4th edition ... whoa! eek.gif
Tanka
mfb: You have to pay cash-wise, but not Essence-wise. After those initial three points, it takes some Essence too.
Fortune
Double post! frown.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (mfb @ Nov 26 2003, 03:51 PM)
indeed. probably part of the reason they both have such a strong following. i'm tempted to say that SR is the second most popular RPG in the world (especially if you count all those freakin' germans), but i don't have any numbers to back that up.

I'd think that claim to fame can be made by White Wolf, with Vampire.
Zolhex
QUOTE (tanka @ Nov 26 2003, 12:02 AM)
mfb: You have to pay cash-wise, but not Essence-wise.  After those initial three points, it takes some Essence too.

No offence tanka but if you read my post above you'll see that you don't pay essance or nuyen for the first 3 points as per p.33 M&M. Yes MFB this does contradict p.303 sr3. But it is there and has not been errataed per this release of errata on M&M.
Artemis
(Pg. 40, M&M) contains information on upgrading cyberlimb Quickness. And yes it does cost for the first three points, although it is slightly cheaper than 4+ points.

(Pg. 303, SR3) contains information on upgrading cyberlimb Strength. Same as above, although neither one costs additional essence until 4+ points.

Good call
Adam
QUOTE (Dim Sum)
My take on the whole thang is if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If it's a little broke, release errata. If there's been enough errata released, it justifies a new edition. If they want to change a major part of the system to make the game better (as with SR2 to SR3), I'm all for a new edition. But when you've just recently released a new and playable edition (like D&D 3rd ed), then come with version 3.5 months (a year?) down the line and there's now talk of a 4th edition ... whoa! eek.gif

Three years, actually. [D&D 3rd was 2000, D&D 3.5 2003]

I certainly agree that any game company should have good reasons for releasing a new edition, and should not do something that will harm the company in the long run. [Pissing off a bunch of longtime players is included in that category, although it's not necessarily a death knell]
Zolhex
QUOTE (Artemis)
(Pg. 40, M&M) contains information on upgrading cyberlimb Quickness. And yes it does cost for the first three points, although it is slightly cheaper than 4+ points.

Ok Artemis please read M&M p.34 for quickness under quickness it says a cyberlimb has a base quickness of 4. Now p.35 under limitations it says yet again that it costs no essance and no nuyen for the first 3 points.
Tanka
E.O.T.L.F. - Look at the table on page 39. Specifically gives prices and Essence costs for Quickness enhancements. You can find the Strength enhancements on page 33.

Edit: Oops. Page 40 for Quickness. I skimmed too quickly. sarcastic.gif
Zolhex
QUOTE (tanka)
E.O.T.L.F. - Look at the table on page 39. Specifically gives prices and Essence costs for Quickness enhancements. You can find the Strength enhancements on page 33.

Edit: Oops. Page 40 for Quickness. I skimmed too quickly. sarcastic.gif

Yes I know this but if you read the pages I quoted they contradict the tables.
mfb
i think it's much more likely that you're either misreading the pages, or the pages are poorly-written. otherwise, you're saying that the game designers were stupid enough to make an entire table entry that contradicts the rules they wrote. and then, stupid enough to somehow miss that, in all the time since the books came out.
Fortune
I believe that the text is stating that if the Strength and/or Quickness of the limb is adjusted by more than 3, then there is a further Essense and Nuyen charge (reflected in the table costs).
Tanka
Actually, they don't. They just don't list a price. It says "...additional Essence and nuyen..." (Emphasis mine.), not "no Essence and nuyen up to and until."

I agree, the wording is rather unclear, but that's how I'm reading it, and, as far as I'm concerned in any games I GM, that's how it will be read until the wording is fixed.
Artemis
Tanka exactly!

QUOTE
(pg. 35, M&M)
...3 points of Quickness enhancement before a player character nust spend additional Essence and nuyen...


QUOTE
(pg. 40, M&M)
Quickness Enhancements cost 30,000• per point (1-3 points per limb), and -0.1 to conceal per point...
Zolhex
My view on this would be you buy a cyberlimb it starts with 4 quickness and can add up to 3 points for a total of 7 if your natural unaugmented quickness is high enough to allow it. Then the next 3 points which would allow you to go to 10 (again if your natural unaugmented quickness allows it) would cost nuyen. After that every point beyond 10 costs nuyen and essance.

Now as to what I mean about your natural quickness the book states that max quickness is either your quickness x2 or your quickness +4 which ever is lower. These totals can only include what your quickness was before you got the cyberlimb. I.E. at character creation I took quickness 6 so if and when I decide to get a cyberlimb the max quickness I can have in it is 12 unless I use karma to raise my natural quickness.
Tanka
I personally think the wording is just a tad fragged. (As if I hadn't made that clear yet...) The tables are usually what's right. In fact, in every instance I've seen, they've been what was most right and made the most sense without being in a paragraph. If the table says one thing, and the corebook says the same, wouldn't it be wise to go with the majority? A little type can make something difficult to understand, but that doesn't mean it's absolutely right in all forms.
Sphynx
QUOTE (Dogsoup)
Perception
Using INT is comfy. And there's the Perceptive edge if we want more dice.
Dwarves:
In our history of gaming, I think we've never had one Dwarf. I don't even think we've been close: I think they're too "vanilla", compared to humans and the other metas, and because of that I've always rationalized their relative advantages as being "compensation" for playing them...
Human Karma Pool Issue:
You're mad, bonkers, out there nyahnyah.gif
Fewer Skill Points
There's always one more crucial skill.

Not to pick you out specifically mr Soup guy, but since you're the only one to call me bonkers.... nyahnyah.gif

First up, Perceptive reduces your TN, not raises your dice (though it's a great edge), but your mistake is in assuming I want more dice. Since I never start a skill out higher than it's linked attribute, that is definitely not the factor. wink.gif It just makes more sense than thinking the more intelligence you are, the more perceptive you are. More intelligent CAN be more perceptive (thus a linked attribute), but are not, by default, more perceptive.

Dwarves.... first up, running multiplier is hardly a factor in most cases. Our current game with mostly dwarves, just huddle down into a defensive position, prone with guns blazing if they are in 'need' of a running. That's just how Dwarves are IMO, and that's how they've been played. And yes, we do charge extra for gear, when it makes sense, but admittedly, not for cyberware. That may indeed make a huge difference, but I don't find it likely since our 'munchkin' group takes resources at the highest levels they can afford. nyahnyah.gif

Karma Pool: Play past a 100 karma game (especially as a Maguc User). By our 250 karma, you're dreading the karma pool because you rarely use it all before it refreshes, and it's draining you of advancement karma too fast as a human. Non-humans, it's draining just about right (and even then, by 250 karma you're asking the GM if you HAVE to...)

Fewer Skill Points: Well, not gonna complain if they don't change it, but again, I'll never use a priority higher than E for it either. nyahnyah.gif

Now.... did I honestly cover so much of the problems that there have only been two other suggestions?

Rev: I agree with combining Electronics(B/R), and have made a Vehicle Mechanics skill that you can specialize in the type of vehicle, so I agree that some merging is definitely needed, I think your breaking them into 3 (instead of my 1) is definitely a good idea. But not computers or seperating security from electronics.

Rev: As for your return to skillweb, that one I have to disagree on completely. I'm much happier with it now, the +10TN possibility was just crazy. The +4/+3/+2 is so much nicer.

Sphynx
The Jopp
I'm not sure if I remember correctly but I think that you have to pay 50.000,00Y for each attribute enhancement on a cyberlimb. That's +300.000,00 to your synthetic cyberlimb (100.000,00). That brings the total to 400.000,00 FOR ONE F*****G LIMB. Ok, so you have a Str of 7,yay, go you. *I* am not impressed.

My pet peeve is, and always will be the cyberlimbs. Now, If a character wants full cyber replacement (for a human) with a Str/Quik of 4 they would need alphagrade ware, minimum just to survive and the cost would be AT LEAST 1,5Mil. Thats for a "streetsam" with generic stats of 4. How badass a streetsam could you make for 1,5Mil?

I made a complete overhaul of the cyberlimb rules a while ago and the only thing I have left is a possible rule for drug addiction but I think I'll skip that since each and every drug would need separate rules for addiction.

The basics are simple. You buy the limbs at your natural attribute value and pay 5000 X Attribute so a basic limb would cost you 40.000,00 for a S/Q 4 limb. Cyberskull and Cybertorso has some slight changes and characters now gain a essence cost reduction for cyberlimbs connected to a cybertorso.

The rewritten rules are about 9 pages with a lot of details about lessened healing time (you replace spare parts, not healing a bleeding wound) and increased cost for surgery (you need a cyberlimb expert).

Anyone knows where I can post them if anyone is interested?
Lilt
Why write several pages of rules when you could just alter the starting quickness and strength ratings to be the racial max? Or even start them one above the racial max. IMHO 40k is a bit too cheap for a cyberlimb, and while cyberarms are extremely common, cybertorsos are extremely rare. Are there any non-cyberzombies that actually have them? (In any of the sourcebooks/novels)
The Jopp
Extremely cheap? That's a few percent MORE than 50% of a obvious cyberlimb. A human would pay 40K and a troll with a base strenght of 8 would pay 60.000,00 due to the fact that the arm is bigger and twice as strong. The troll would STILL have the base 10ECU due to the fact that his arm is a lot bigger. The point is that you would no longer have a fixed price for a limb since you would buy them to match the characters starting strenght. If the character has a S1 and Q1 the limb would cost 10.000,00.

I kept the base Str of the races at 4,6,8 and quickness at 4.

Now, calm down, the price will be higher since it would be more expensive ingame to raise the stats. The character would have to pay 5000X New Value for each attribute point per limb + medical expenses. A character wishing to raise the strenght from 1-6 would pay (10000+15000+20000+25000+30000=100000.

Cheap? Unbalanced? Go and create two kinds of characters, one chromeboy with full body replacement and a basic streetsam and compare them, who is better? Who is cheaper? The chromeboy has POTENTIAL but isn't very playable with 0,05 Essence and stats of 4 and Reaction+1D6 as a streetsam.

Then we have Bonelacing VS cyberarm. Why does titanium bonelacing give +4Str and a METAL arm gives only +2? Oh, and that is only if you have two of them...

Yes, cyberlimbs with those rules ARE cheaper but have a lot of drawbacks. The rules arent just tweaked they are revamped almost completely. The only intact thing is the amount of ECU available and how armour is worked out.

Btw, don't spit on them before you have read them.
Lilt
OK. I wasn't really trying to spit on your rules, the post may have seemed somewhat more confronting than I meant it to be. I also take-back the comment about 40K being too cheap, in retrospect it seems resonable. It does make sense that trolls have to pay more for (bigger and stronger) cyberarms, I was merely questioning wether 9 pages of additional rules are nececary when a quick ammendum (base stats equal to racial maximum and halve the price or something)
cykotek
To address the karma pool issue, I've used a "stepped-progression" house rule in all the games that I run. For every 5 points in the Karma Pool, the amount it takes for your next point is increased by 5. So, for a human, to get from 5 to 6 karma pool points, they would need to accumulate 15. For 10 to 11, it would be 20.

In Sphynx's case of 250 karma, you've only have a karma pool of 16, with an expendature of 16 karma pool, and be 10/25 of the way to your 17th point (total spendable karma = 235). It's not a lot, but that's 10 less karma pool, and another 35 karma to work with over the lifetime.

Admittedly, I've never decided if the stepping should be based on absolute (total karma pool earned to date) or relative (how many currently in the pool). I've never had to decide if someone burning karma to keep their pool under 5 to keep earning more pool was trying to cheat the system, or just being a jackass. I think that I'de decide that, at the least, any karma contributed to a team karma pool would still count for purposes of the step, though.
Dogsoup
Sphynx
QUOTE
First up, Perceptive reduces your TN, not raises your dice...

Fnuh! My bad.
QUOTE
It just makes more sense than thinking the more intelligence you are, the more perceptive you are.  More intelligent CAN be more perceptive (thus a linked attribute), but are not, by default, more perceptive.

PER as a stand-alone skill would raise the issue of characters not having it being modertly oblivious of their surroundings due to the default modifier. A compromise would be to make PER a complimentary skill, wether an active or knowledge one, I don't know.
QUOTE
Play past a 100 karma game (especially as a Maguc User).

Hehe, we're obviously playing the game in different ways (no, I don't mean power level! wink.gif), since I think we've had only one character go above the 100 mark. Thus, we've treasured our Karma Pools like holy symbols made out of gold-plated platina, carried by an entourage of virgins... or something like that.
QUOTE
By our 250 karma, you're dreading the karma pool because you rarely use it all before it refreshes, and it's draining you of advancement karma too fast as a human.

By this example I can understand your concern, but our group have simply never been there, so it's not an issue to us.

Rev:
I'll support you on the B/R-thingie, sort of. We haven't changed the active Electronics and B/R skills, but we've done away with their knowledge counterparts.

The skillweb on the other hand, while looking cool, was kind'a "bulky" to use [insert whining, lazy smiley]
Siege
As I noted before, we do Perception as a knowledge skill, complimentary.

It works reasonably well.

-Siege
Link
Jopp

Can I have a copy of those cyberlimb rules please?
Earthwalker
Since I have played Shadowrun int has been used as perception and ability to retain information. It is not a measure of your knowledge as thatís represented by the skills you have.

Some one with int of 1 and chemistry 6, physics 6, biology 6 and psychology 6 would be a very knowledgably but would seem unfocused and unaware.

I donít understand why you want to move perception to a skill no more then why you would stop using strength and instead use a lifting things skill.

My basic question of hreplacing int with a perception skill is why ?

And like people have said you can use some skills as complimentary skills to int for some tests.
Sphynx
The reason for making it a skill is that 'just because you're intelligent doesn't mean you're perceptive'. That's common sense I think. I do know highly intelligent people who analyze and think well before replying, can solve logic algorithyms in their head, and never seem to see something right in front of their nose, often BECAUSE they're so busy thinking/daydreaming.

Hope that helps you understand the obvious there EW. wink.gif

Sphynx
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