i'm starting to think the most helpful thing we all could do is to just let this thread sink off the first page and ignore the fact that it exists, quite frankly.

you know how i said it's impossible to have a civil discussion with certain people on this board? well i'm not going to name any names, or even make it too obvious who i meant (i am of the opinion that the individual(s) in question make it plenty obvious without any assistance from me), but i'd say this thread isn't going anywhere other than flamewarville, and it's going there really fast.

You're right, a sim module does tell you different. "A sim module must be accessed via trodes or a direct neural interface (datajack, implanted commlink, etc)."

Except, that the knowsoft/linguasoft (hereon soft) text tells you, "softs must be accessed with a direct neural link (either a sim module or datajack)."

So, sim modules need to be used via trodes/direct neural interface. But softs require a direct neural link... yet the examples of a softs direct neural link are a sim module or a datajack.

You insist the text for the softs is correct, which means that a sim module is a direct neural interface as much as a datajack is. The text for the sim module would become recursive then, since a sim module is a direct neural interface (via the softs text) then since a sim module needs trodes or direct neural interface to work, it can work via trodes, datajack, implanted commlink, or etc. The etc would include a sim module, as the soft text makes a sim module a direct neural interface.

Thusly, the repercussions are this. A sim module becomes a direct neural interface, and thusly can use itself to be accessed. Since they are wireless you can in fact wirelessly direct neural interface to someones brain, and feed them whatever signals you want.


The way to fix this, is to assume the soft text is in error, and actually meant to say trodes or datajack, which fixes the problem.

A requires B OR C
B requires C

1. It could be that B = C

2. It could be that using B means C must also be used.

1 Means that many many parts of the text must be wrong.

2 Means that part of the text are merely confusing but not wrong.

Your choice, your game.

That bit about "only"... the text doesn't say "Sim module without DNI or trodes" does it?

""Knowsofts must be accessed with a direct neural link (either
a sim module or datajack).""

These are all assumptions, not statements that can be derived from the text in question.

Tarantula is assuming for example that words have consistent meaning when used in near identical context in multiple places in the same book.

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Jumpin Zombie Jesus guys, how hard is this? I personally don't even care because I think the world works better if the universe has wireless DNIs, and my own personal house rules don't even use the RAW equipment. But the Knowsoft Link gives two examples of a DNI. One of them is a cybernetic hole in your head. The other is an external wireless device with a range of 400 meters.

The text of the wireless device in question gives a specifically non-exhaustive list of DNIs. This list doesn't include itself, but does include the word "etc." Now if you you're like me and don't give a damn whether the rules say that you can have a 400 meter wireless direct neural interface, then seriously who cares? But if for some reason it's really important to you that the wireless DNI not exist in Shadowrun, then you must say that the Sim Module's listing as a DNI is an error.

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I don't know what your particular ax to grind is, and I don't care. But seriously dudes, this argument is retarded and it has to stop. Coming from the assumption that "Sim Modules are not capable of projecting Sim Sense into people's naked brains from 400 meters away" then Tarantula is 100% right. I don't even know what the other people are arguing for or why they are doing it.

-Frank

I agree that a Sim Module shouldn't be considered on its own a DNI. However, you can't just plug a knowsoft into trodes - there's nowhere to plug it into.

From a common sense perspective, there's really two interfaces involved, and only one is explicitly mentioned. One is the DNI, and the other is the physical interface between the chip and the device. Trodes don't have the latter.

Here's an analogy:

Stereo System with integrated CD player and speakers = Datajack
DVD player = Sim Module
Headphones = Trodes
Audio CD = Knowsoft

To hear the CD, you need both a CD reader (Stereo or DVD player) AND speakers (Stereo or Headphones). To accomplish this, you can plug the DVD player into the Stereo, or you can plug the headphones into the DVD player, or you can just play it directly on the Stereo. Neither the DVD Player nor the Headphones are sufficient on their own.

DS

Seriously, dude. Cut down on the caffeine or whatever. This rage of yours is irrational, misplaced and a tad silly. Personally, I actually agree with your point. Which means that being insulting to others about it is really unnecessary, because the argument can stand on its own.

Stop being a douche.

To continue my analogy, just because you have Wireless Headphones doesn't mean they can pick up signals from your Audio CD.

From what I understand, a knowsoft (or any other skill chip) is just data - there's no hardware involved (other than the storage medium), so you need something to actually read the data from the medium into "live" electronic form. I don't have a rulebook handy here at work so I can't read the text in detail for insight.

DS

You've confused me with what one of his little sycophant friends thinks.

No that's exactly the problem. The Sim Module requires a DNI. If the Knowsoft writeup is correct (which there's no reason to believe it is), then the Sim Module is a DNI and fulfills its own requirements. I don't know why people are invested in the Knowsoft using Sim Module as an example of a DNI, from context it's pretty obvious that the basic rules were not overall written with that intention.

The only thing I think is really interesting is that Sim Modules give Trode Nets as an example of something that will work instead of a DNI. What the hell does that mean?

-Frank

You and Tarantula are in agreement here.

Sim Modules are not now, nor have they ever been, a DNI. They create a data stream in SimSense format which is then supposed to go through a DNI. A Sim Module can't be a DNI because if it was it would meet its own criteria and then Doc Funk would go off on a rampage about how wrong I was for blackhammering his mother (which btw, I will do).

So the questions remain:

• Why does the Knowsoft give a Sim Module as an example of a DNI?
  Probable Answer: The Knowsoft Link is in error, the Sim Module is not a DNI.
  
• Why does the Sim Module say that it requires trodes "or" a DNI?
  Probable Answer: Trodes are a DNI, the text has an implied "other" i it so that it should say "must be accessed via trodes or other direct neural interface (datajack, implanted commlink, etc.)" - in any case the Sim Module is not itself a DNI as stated in the Knowsoft description and cannot be accessed through itself.

Yeah, minor wording problems with the Matrix gear isn't big news. Last I checked everyone pointing out this particular rules issue was willing to simply point it out, shrug, and walk off. I have no idea why certain people keep chiming in to claim that this extremely obvious and minor wording problem does not exist. It's contrary to plain fact and it doesn't change anything either way since everyone knows what it's supposed to say.

-Frank