Well if knowsofts can go out of date, so can human knowledge skills. You've been away 2 months in Yucatan? Sorry, your Gang ID know skill is suddenly almost useless.

Although I would rather just apply a penalty that will gradually disappear as the PC get's updated... that's both the character and the computer program.

I'll imagine Knowsofts are continually updated from a main database, unless this function is deactivated.

Most knowskills wouldn't need this often though, how often does "19th century classical music" change?

PCs are free to spend 100k in knowsofts and linguasofts if they wish.

Everyone should have 2-3 linguasofts though... it's just stupid not to.

Knowsofts cost 1,000 per rating point, linguasofts 500 . I don't consider those amounts pocket change! That might be affordable for a successful shadowrunner, but even an upper-end runner will probably be judicious about skill selection at those prices, and the average citizen will use knowsofts at low ratings, and rarely.

Wrong. Specifically you need a sim module to run know softs and lingua softs. Sim modules require a DNI (trodes/datajack).

Can you cite some support for this?

I can find an example of this. p. 331
"Datajack: A datajack allows a user to directly interface
with any electronic device via a fiberoptic cable. Datajacks
also allow users to slot and mentally access chips, softs, and
BTLs. Datajacks equipped with their own memory storage
for downloading or saving files. Two datajack users can
string a fiberoptic cable between themselves to conduct a
private mental communication immune to radio interception/
eavesdropping."

The datajack does not require simsense module, yet allows the use of chips and softs.

Also, p. 321
"Linguasoft: Linguasofts replicate language skills, allowing
the user to speak a foreign language as fluently as her
native language. Linguasofts may also be used as real-time
translation programs. Linguasofts must be accessed with a
direct neural link (either a sim module or datajack)."

The use of "or datajack" is something to note here.

And p. 320
"Knowsoft: Knowsofts replicate Knowledge skills, actively
overwriting the user’s knowledge with their own data.
Knowsofts must be accessed with a direct neural link (either
a sim module or datajack)."

Same thing "or datajack"

This seems to me to indicate any DNI interface will do.

Of course you might be saying that Datajacks get simsense included for free?

What about the bit that says "Linguasofts must be accessed with a
direct neural link "?

and p. 330
"In addition to wireless functionality, most cyberware devices
are equipped with a direct neural interface (DNI) that
allows the user to mentally activate and control their functions."

and for the sim module itself p. 318
"A sim module must be accessed
via trodes or a direct neural interface (datajack, implanted
commlink, etc)."

They must also be incorrect because because you are saying DNI= Sim module?

I refuse to discuss trodes in any detail as every time I do that it sparks a 300 post flame war.

-Frank

Skillwires are implanted cyberware?

So you are saying that all of the KnowSoft, Linguasoft, Datajack, Sim Module, and Trode descriptions are all incorrect? So it's not just wrong in one place, but in all of them?

Just a nitpick, but not every Commlink comes with a Sim Module as standard.

So stopping to argue that trodes require a simrig, which is definitional to the entire concept of "trodes", is a bit ridiculous (which was my point). Still, you caught me correctly .

True and not only that but getting one for your internal commlink costs another 0.2 essence loss. So an internal commlink + sim module costs 0.4 essence versus the datajack's essence cost of only 0.1 essence. (i'm away from books right now but i think i'm remembering the costs right).

Oh, you CAN just mush into the trode paste, granting you +1 DP on any social skill use with anyone who thinks that it looks cool. Flakes in the oatmeal, ya know.
But that won't get data from the chip into your mind. For that you need nanite sim trode paste, which will build a tiny I/O port at the chip's connection points, convert the data into a format which matches your sensorium (eg writing appearing in your field of vision as if the input was coming from the rod and cones cells of your retina), and then generate the electric and magnectic effects to interface with your brain (aka mess with your sensory perception).

Nanite Trode Paste - available only from Renraku, at monopoly prices, until shadowrunners deliver the tech specs to MCT and Evo!

Correct, but internal commlinks don't require a sim module to run knowsofts and lingusofts, as they have a DNI, which is the stated neccesity.

That is sig worthy.

True. (And I assume you meant sim modules instead of simrigs there)

Duh. Datajacks thus have a unique trait in that they allow you to use knowsofts without a sim module. Other forms of DNI do not. Amazing how that works, no?

I didn't say they are all incorrect. Only knowsoft and linguasoft's text uses that language, and its pretty obvious it was copy pasted replacing know with lingua in the sentence.

No, they don't, or rather shouldn't. Datajacks don't include a sim module anymore than trodes do. Neither is required for know/lingua softs. They only require DNI. Trodes provide that. So does a datajack.

Dude, a Sim Module is a wireless device. It has a Device Rating of 3. That means that it has a Signal of 3, and a range of 400 meters. If, as described in the Knowsoft description, a Sim Module can actually count as a direct neural link that can project "knowledge" into an uncybered human brain... then exactly the thing you've been insultingly telling me doesn't happen is exactly what happens.

I can stand 400 meters away with a simmodule and a specially formulated chip full of special programming - and I can change the contents of your mom's brain. That is exactly the thing you were telling me was "ridiculous" and a "basic misunderstanding of the game."

So are you telling me that description is not in error? That just your presumptions are?

-Frank

Certainly my interpretation of the Sim Module is that it converts a data stream into a simsense stream and then it sends it off to some other device which presumably acts as a direct neural interface. But that's not what Doc Funk was saying. He said that the statement that a Knowsoft could be used

was not in error. Since that statement says that the Sim Module (which is a wireless device with a range of 400 meters) can be used to provide a direct neural link, Doc Funk is saying that I should be able with a Sim Module alone change the contents of a human brain at 400 meters.

Personally, I think that statement is in error. That a Sim Module by itself just creates a Sim Sense feed and doesn't by itself connect to brains.

-Frank

Wasn't it also said that a sim module needs an input device (being trodes or a datajack) to 'input' the data into your head, and that's apart from the fact that people have to subscribe to such devices or connect the input to the output of the simrig. You can't force someone into a simsense loop unless you have him strapped in a chair and set everything up with your own equipment.