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Spike
I have noticed a recurring trend in discussions about Shadowrun, and finally put my finger on the exact nature of the trend.

There are two poles on a spectrum of play that are both valid, but largely incompatable.

On one end you have the 'Chrome' play, all about the wizbang toys, the attitude, the action. Runners are 'heroes' of their own Hollywood Action Movie, Adepts are Ninja, Wizards blast stuff, are inscrutable, and can control minds at a whim. The Runners don't have to worry about equipment breaking down, or looking professional, they just have to worry about looking cool and being 'the best'.

At the other exteme you have the 'Black' play, all about the quiet professionals. These guys only deal through cutouts, never get personally involved, and look for the money/rep option. They dress like corporate commandos, suits for infiltration, janitors for after hours jobs, and occasionally black bodyarmor jumpsuits for raids. They don't want to look cool, they want to succeed. Their gear doesn't necessarily provide the best bonus, but it is the most reliable, and possibly disposable item on the market... and you can garauntee they absolutely need it for that op. Black players don't carry gadgets for the sake of having cool toys.


Now, first of all, this is a spectrum, not a binary observation. Second, either option is somewhat modular. Its perfectly possible to play a stylized Chrome 'ultimate professional' who uses disposable gear and does everything 'black'....but cooler.

Second of all, this doesn't require any modification of the rules. Individual players could go 'chrome' or 'black' even in the same group, though we could assume that everyone playing to the same level of C or B is preferrable.

How does it look in play, though?

Well: Chrome players probably have insanely high dicepools in more limited feilds, you'll see players pulling revolvers because they are cool, or because they do the most damage. There is probably a lot of casual carnage, lots of nameless guards shot or stabbed or simply smooshed by the troll in the course of the average run. Characters will smacktalk the Johnson, double deals are common (the GM can ride the spectrum as well as any player...), you may even have jet setting runs in exotic, but totally sweet, locations like embassies, Monte Carlo, or what have you. Runs may not even involve much in the way of planning.

Black players will have high dice pools, but will have wider ranges of skills, less uber specialization. While each character might have an area of expertise, a totally black party will have several characters able to do the same job to various levels of ability. Preferred weapons will be assault rifles and SMGs, with pistols used only on 'undercover' work. The characters will work to minimize violence in the job, and probably spend a great deal of time in planning and legwork. Johnsons will see very little facetime, and be treated as customers or employers, and will probably only meet the designated 'face' of the party, if the GM is in on it, double dealing and dirty tricks will be limited, though that doesn't mean the Johnson plays it totally straight either, just that the characters might never know if/how they got screwed.



ThreeGee
It's perfectly possible to have both types, and any of the myriad greys in between, in the same party.
nezumi
I completely disagree. There's no relation between being 'uber cool' vs. being professional and being a specialist or a generalist, being politically draconian or straight, being a money-rich campaign or money-poor, international or local, violent or non-violent. I've seen highly violent professionals and very non-violent showy characters.

That said, Johnsons double crossing you should happen at every level regardless.
Stahlseele
QUOTE
It's perfectly possible to have both types, and any of the myriad greys in between, in the same party.

or even in one character . .
mfb
i think it works better to view 'black' and 'chrome' as a set of traits, which can be mixed and matched in any given character. having large, specialized dice pools is a 'chrome' trait; disposable gear is a 'black' trait. a given character might be extremely chrome in some areas and extremely black in others.
Stahlseele
problem is, i'd love to play a chrome-monster . . but SR System/Setting actively punishes such characters through things like the 'Distinctive Style' Flaw . .
Even if i am playing a Troll, i will not use any obvious cyber AT ALL . . if i use Dermal-Tech, i pay more to have it look like heavy case of natural armor . . if i Use Horns/Fangs i pay extra to have them look like the natural teeth/horns and so on . . i pay extra to have retractable eye-shields instead of the usual ones, i don't wear anything that looks all black-ops or street-punk style . . i wear things like the Victory industrious Winter . . Overalls/work-Clothes and hidden Armor and the such . . i don't wear any large bladed weapons(god's it is close to impossible to actually use an Pole-Arm with Dikote for example) . . i don't even use the usual knuckle-duster and instead pay good money for a pair of gloves that looks like ordinary cheap synth-leather but consists of an shock-glove and an hardliner glove . . et cetera, et cetera, drek-cetera to paraphrase Dirk Montgommery . .
mfb
i'm not sure what you're trying to say; if your post is a response to mine, i'm not sure how your response relates to what i said.

one thing i will note--i don't see that the distinctive style flaw is a punishment. if you want to play a distinctive character, take the distinctive style flaw. if you don't, the only thing you really need to change is to take the flaw off of your char sheet.
Spike
I just want to point out that I do attempt to cover both the spectrum of Black/Chrome as well as the modularity of the various attributes. I expect pure versions of either to be nearly impossible to do.

I originally had in mind to use cultural examples of both, but had a hard time isolating elements. Mission Impossible seemed a good 'Black' sort of movie, but was very flashy and gadgety at times, True Lies had some black Intel ops but then had rocket launchers, helicopter bridge chaces and all sorts of whacky over the top stuff.

Pure Chrome might be easier to find in Hollywood, but even Crank, as over the top as it was, seemed to deal with a very grounded underworld with a veneer of cool... from a certain point of view. But then you bring in gritty chrome and cinematic black and the whole thing becomes useless..... eek.gif
Stahlseele
doesn't work like that x.x . . our GM's hand these things out as if they were pamphletes at a political gathering x.x
HappyDaze
QUOTE
problem is, i'd love to play a chrome-monster . . but SR System/Setting actively punishes such characters through things like the 'Distinctive Style' Flaw . .
Even if i am playing a Troll, i will not use any obvious cyber AT ALL . . if i use Dermal-Tech, i pay more to have it look like heavy case of natural armor . . if i Use Horns/Fangs i pay extra to have them look like the natural teeth/horns and so on . . i pay extra to have retractable eye-shields instead of the usual ones, i don't wear anything that looks all black-ops or street-punk style . . i wear things like the Victory industrious Winter . . Overalls/work-Clothes and hidden Armor and the such . . i don't wear any large bladed weapons(god's it is close to impossible to actually use an Pole-Arm with Dikote for example) . . i don't even use the usual knuckle-duster and instead pay good money for a pair of gloves that looks like ordinary cheap synth-leather but consists of an shock-glove and an hardliner glove . . et cetera, et cetera, drek-cetera to paraphrase Dirk Montgommery . .

If I follow this correctly, you're saying that you and your group prefer to play to the Black. Nothing wrong with this - it's my preferred angle too - but not everyone will do this. Some SR groups look like street-level superheroes and there's nothing wrong with that option either.

BTW, is there any chance you could organize your posts with sentences and puncuation? Reading your posts is a real pain in the ass some days.
mfb
QUOTE (Stahlseele)
doesn't work like that x.x . . our GM's hand these things out as if they were pamphletes at a political gathering x.x

that's an issue with your GMs, then.
Stahlseele
nobody might really remember the troll . . sure, people might remember that there WAS a Troll . . but if that Troll is sporting a pink mohawk and has 2 obvious cyber-arms and an balance tail and was carrying a pole-arm two times as big as an orc, people tend to remember those things. THAT's what i mean. it ain't really the distinctive style flaw, but sure as heck feels like it most of the time.

My Group does not really like the Black Ops Style thingamingie. My Group just likes to play such ultra cool silent assassins, such cutesy elf sluts, a mix between athlete's way and invisible way adept and mages with inproved invisibility, silence and levitation. They just like that kind of Characters, so that playing style is more or less the only available angle at first. Sure, they complain about my 3m tall heavy weapons plattform every time, but in the end, they fuck up and i get to do what i du best . . HULK SMASH!
Grinder
QUOTE (Stahlseele)
problem is, i'd love to play a chrome-monster . . but SR System/Setting actively punishes such characters through things like the 'Distinctive Style' Flaw . .
Even if i am playing a Troll, i will not use any obvious cyber AT ALL . . if i use Dermal-Tech, i pay more to have it look like heavy case of natural armor . . if i Use Horns/Fangs i pay extra to have them look like the natural teeth/horns and so on . . i pay extra to have retractable eye-shields instead of the usual ones, i don't wear anything that looks all black-ops or street-punk style . . i wear things like the Victory industrious Winter . . Overalls/work-Clothes and hidden Armor and the such . . i don't wear any large bladed weapons(god's it is close to impossible to actually use an Pole-Arm with Dikote for example) . . i don't even use the usual knuckle-duster and instead pay good money for a pair of gloves that looks like ordinary cheap synth-leather but consists of an shock-glove and an hardliner glove . . et cetera, et cetera, drek-cetera to paraphrase Dirk Montgommery . .

Better grammar and punctuation would be helpful wink.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (Stahlseele)
... to paraphrase Dirk Montgommery . .

Dirk's a wuss!
Grinder
We speak of the 2XS guy, don't we?
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Grinder)
We speak of the 2XS guy, don't we?

The same.
House of the sun featured him too, if i remember correctly.
Homme-qui-rigole
Chrome is king!
martindv
QUOTE (Spike @ Nov 26 2007, 04:49 PM)
Pure Chrome might be easier to find in Hollywood, but even Crank, as over the top as it was, seemed to deal with a very grounded underworld with a veneer of cool... from a certain point of view.  But then you bring in gritty chrome and cinematic black and the whole thing becomes useless..... eek.gif

That's because most people don't watch Pure Black movies (or TV shows like The Wire). Dumpshock may be an exception, but most people haven't even heard of The Lookout or anything like it.
crash2029
Street level superheroes...ooh rah! Let's hear it for the Dystopian Dynamic Duo! We just gloss over the fact that with the abilities these people have there's no way they would be in the shadows. Still, superpowered is the only way to go baby!
Stahlseele
With Trolls, Super-Powered comes built in . .
And why would the Dynamic Duo be mentioned in that regard? O.o
I mean . . Batman and Robin(quiet, or papa spank) are usual humans with some athletics/unarmed fighting and gadgets or am i missing something?
martindv
QUOTE (crash2029 @ Nov 26 2007, 07:38 PM)
Street level superheroes...ooh rah! Let's hear it for the Dystopian Dynamic Duo! We just gloss over the fact that with the abilities these people have there's no way they would be in the shadows. Still, superpowered is the only way to go baby!

heh.

You don't read Thunderbolts, I take it. There were three "street level" heroes the T-bolts tried to take down in Phoenix. They got one, and he had been using his dad's credit card to buy parts for his devices (Steel Spider. Look him up.)

Or, well, the entire premise behind Secret War. All these supercriminals do crimes that can't pay for the maintenance of their high-tech devices, and it turns out it's because they are being subsidized by a third-party for their own purposes. Gee, sounds familiar.
D Minor
Fulltime Killer Has the contrast your looking for.


Tok Vs. O ......Pure sweetness
Catharz Godfoot
QUOTE (D Minor)
Fulltime Killer Has the contrast your looking for.


Tok Vs. O ......Pure sweetness

Sounds similar to Pistol Opera.
mfb
QUOTE (Stahlseele)
nobody might really remember the troll . . sure, people might remember that there WAS a Troll . . but if that Troll is sporting a pink mohawk and has 2 obvious cyber-arms and an balance tail and was carrying a pole-arm two times as big as an orc, people tend to remember those things. THAT's what i mean. it ain't really the distinctive style flaw, but sure as heck feels like it most of the time.

or they might just remember "a punk troll with lots of cyber and a big stick", the way someone today might remember "a black guy with a gun" or "a mexican with a knife". SR is a world where trolls mohawks, cyberlimbs, and even polearms are not uncommon. your troll looks just like all the other pink-mohawked, cyberlimbed trolls with polearms.
Mercer
QUOTE (ThreeGee)
It's perfectly possible to have both types, and any of the myriad greys in between, in the same party.

I agree, its really only useful if its expressed as a ratio, and even then the terms seem pretty subjective. As defined, one person's Black could be another person's Chrome. ("You guys have assault rifles? Sorry, that's too 'chrome' for me, I prefer silenced pistols.") It used to be called Style over Substance, with CP2020 representing the style (full 'borgs, rocket pistols and cyberarm chainsaws) and SR representing the substance (which was odd, since you'd think the system with shamans and toxic spirits and dragons would be if anything, weirder).

But for my money, I'll stick by the quote from Fry, "Leela, there's nothing wrong with anything."
ludomastro
I played a lot of Chrome in college; however, I prefer to run Black. I'll ask the next time I run a game what people are looking for so everyone is happy.
ElFenrir
Yeah, it really is something that's not all encompassing, but I do admit the descriptions are good. But even a Black group can be hired to do some sort of sabotage where they are told ''leave nothing in the lab unbroken''. A Black group might be more likely to go about this with a quietly placed(large) demolition charge, but they'd get it done. Chrome might be more likely to rock the machine guns/Panther cannons; but Chrome has been known to plant a demo charge now and then. grinbig.gif

I sort of like a mixed style. Sometimes pulling that job off where no one even knows it's happening is awesome, and sometimes you just want to blow stuff up. A mixed game gives the best of both worlds, and also tests a team to see if they can handle themselves in various situations. a Chrome team might have to pull out all the stops, even hire an extra person or two to help them with a really Black job, where a Black job might have to work their fixers to get them some proper firepower for a Chrome job.
'

The ideal team, of course, IMO, is one who can switch it up when needed. Ive played in both types of games, and they are both fun, and i have a feeling if i was forever stuck in one or the other id grow bored.
Critias
It's worth noting, I think, that there's another spectrum of players/games that can lead to similar categorizations: the "Cyberpunk plus magic" crowd versus the "D&D with guns" groups.

I suppose it could lead to a sort of four-way alignment map, as Cyberpunk/D&D and Black/Chrome intersect in different ways, to different levels of extreme, in different games.
Blade
Which could lead in turn to endless rant about how inadequate it is. grinbig.gif
Fuchs
How about a lovely bunch of not quite perfect runners who try to do it all black style, but end up more often than not in chrome style trouble?
Mercer
Can't we at least agree that everyone is wrong but me?
HappyDaze
QUOTE
Yeah, it really is something that's not all encompassing, but I do admit the descriptions are good. But even a Black group can be hired to do some sort of sabotage where they are told ''leave nothing in the lab unbroken''. A Black group might be more likely to go about this with a quietly placed(large) demolition charge, but they'd get it done. Chrome might be more likely to rock the machine guns/Panther cannons; but Chrome has been known to plant a demo charge now and then.

This isn't really a good example of Black vs. Chrome. The Black/Chrome determiner is whether the PCs did only what was necessary and nothing more - including before and after the run. A Black group may be called upon to make a public spectacle, but they have planned ways out that let them lay low and possibly even change their identities after the mission. A Chrome group might take on super-subtle missions, but would still bring along trademark equipment and not think about altering their lifestyles (and characters' personal styles) after the mission.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Mercer)
Can't we at least agree that everyone is wrong but me?

Yes.

Although that makes me wrong, too, so in the case of 'yes', then 'no'. grinbig.gif
martindv
QUOTE (Mercer)
Can't we at least agree that everyone is wrong but me?

Everyone is right but you.
toturi
QUOTE (martindv)
QUOTE (Mercer @ Nov 27 2007, 07:58 AM)
Can't we at least agree that everyone is wrong but me?

Everyone is right but you.

I could agree to that.
Kyoto Kid
...well for the most part I guess I tend towards the black.

For example, My Matrix Specialist has ID & licenses for such occupations as security systems analyst, electrician, physical plant maintenance, and utility service. She also has a number of related outfits and appropriate tool kits to complete the "look" and the skill to back her cover occupations up.

The only really "chrome" character I ever ran was my ex-MET2000 merc I had in Brainscan. I also have a backup character waiting in the wings named "Rosie the Cyber-Riveter" (#62) who is the first character I've made with cyberlimbs.
Sir_Psycho
And the wild rollerblading bomb-throwing little girl was black then, kk?


Every game I've ever played or gamesmastered has been black (or at least that's where I tried to go). My first character was an elven, fast-talking, stealthy electronics and b/e specialist, a greyish black. Of course, his partner was a dual cyber-armed, red cyber-eyed Ork samurai named Loki (A norse bloke obsessed with Jap culture).

The first character I ever gamemastered was a french invisible way adept named Vaziel with an augmented stealth of nine (3rd Ed).

Not to be outdone, my next character was an invisible way (/warriors way, to be honest) hunted Ninja with an augmented Stealth roll of ten. Both characters rolled about 13 dice on listening tests, and as if they were ten times closer to the source of sound. (so useful for avoiding ambushes and patrols). Shinji also rolled nine dice for Katana tests. (so maybe he was a little chrome, or grey, at times.)

The latest character I'm GMing is if you take the Bourne Identity concept of an amnesiac and extremely capable, skilled up black ops shadow, and then pull it forward into the sixth world, throw in a suite of delta grade ware, and give him nightmarish flashbacks of time spent in vats of genetic fluid.

Personally I think the Bourne movies are an excellent benchmark for a Black game of Shadowrun, with a pervasive Big Brother feel, and the Shadowrunners and operatives are the ones with the tools and skills at their disposable to fade into crowds and shadows. The scene where bourne is shadowing the reporter at the train station, expertly evading notice by the squad of planted operatives and pool of tech specialists watching the cameras and tapping cellular signals. Add drones, CCSS systems, headware telephones (not that any runner worth his ruthenium jumpsuit would have something so easily trackable actually implanted in his head).
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho)
And the wild rollerblading bomb-throwing little girl was black then, kk?

...she was in a class by herself.grinbig.gif

...& she was a crack demolitions specialist who studied her targets & planned her jobs in minute detail. The rollerblading little kid was just an act to throw off suspicion.

...& she didn't have throwing skill, she just occasionally handed Serbian soldiers what appeared to be unarmed grenades that she said she found while playing, then after skating away triggered the radio detonator she rigged. grinbig.gif
Nkari
The funny thing is that ppl remember less details about the spectacular than they do about the mundane.. And 10 ppl seeing the event, person or place will give 10 diffrent but close summarys of that, especially if there are gaudy colours etc.. they will remember that perticular feature and make up alot of other stuff simply because the brain invents stuff it doesnt remember etc.. Thats why Eye witnesses are highly unreliable..


Oh and this next campaign Im running will be a chrome setting inspired ALOT by the anime "Black Lagoon"..
Fuchs
Oh, yes - our Miami-based campaign has a lot of similarities with Black Lagoon(although we started the campaign a few years before the series started). Pirates, Smugglers, Mafia - we even have a mage that wears suits like Rock does.
Stahlseele
Black Lagoon, good idea, i'll watch the last episodes later on today.
But the Characters are not really to my liking somehow x.x . .
too much psycho-babbel . .
Critias
Eye witnesses are only unreliable if you're relying on their meat eyes and their meat memories.

The cybereyes they've got, the cell phone cameras/commlinks they're carrying (even nowadays), the camera mounted on their gun or on the dash of their car or on the street corner or on the ATM or on a spy drone or in their sunglasses, the spirit sent after you...are all reliable enough.

Being invisible in The Sixth World takes a lot more work than in ours. The old "ask ten people what happened, get ten different stories" saw isn't necessarily as true in 2070 as it is today (and it's not even as true today as it was ten years ago!).
Fuchs
Maybe as an alternative, use "cinematic" and "realistic" as classifications?

"Cinematic" covers a lot, from Terminator to Die Hard to True Lies to Sneakers, but in every style category it is understood that things have a certain "fudge factor" - where something is more or less omitted in order to make the system work, be it forensics, use of security cameras, social dynamics or rules. The rules and background are subservient to the game style one wants to achieve.

"Realistic" is a style that takes the rules or a viewpoint, and follows it through. Whatever is possible within those parameters is used, and the consequences applied. The wide-spread cameras are not fudged/omitted, but force runners to wear mask or invest in face altering spells and/or cyber. Forensic likewise make carrying the same weapon on another job not advisable, and money has to be laundered before it can get used. The rules and background form the game style.
Spike
QUOTE (Fuchs)
Maybe as an alternative, use "cinematic" and "realistic" as classifications?

"Cinematic" covers a lot, from Terminator to Die Hard to True Lies to Sneakers, but in every style category it is understood that things have a certain "fudge factor" - where something is more or less omitted in order to make the system work, be it forensics, use of security cameras, social dynamics or rules. The rules and background are subservient to the game style one wants to achieve.

"Realistic" is a style that takes the rules or a viewpoint, and follows it through. Whatever is possible within those parameters is used, and the consequences applied. The wide-spread cameras are not fudged/omitted, but force runners to wear mask or invest in face altering spells and/or cyber. Forensic likewise make carrying the same weapon on another job not advisable, and money has to be laundered before it can get used. The rules and background form the game style.

The thing is: Sneakers, while cinematic to a large degree (blind dude doing covert ops work? yeah...) it was a pretty 'Black' movie.
Ravor
Well in my opinion you have to chart alot more factors then you are allowing for.

There is at least;

Chrome/Black

Pink Mohawks/Ice-Cold Pros

Gritty/Cinematic

Street Scum/Hooder

*Edit*

Ghost/First-Person-Shooter
Spike
I don't think you do. I mean, sure you could make other spectrum axis pairs but that has little to do with the one I'm postulating, and in many cases are not as core as I feel this divide is.

In some cases, a certain degree of overlap is implied. Pink mohawks defintely push things towards Chrome, Gritty Play falls neatly into Black Territory, which is defined in part by what 'real pros' might do... within limits. Sure, you can have gritty chrome and cinematic Black, so its not a perfect match.

As with any other comparison, this is only useful when looking at the specifics being compared. Using a 'sour vs sweet' comparison for sneakers makes little sense unless you have very odd taste in cuisine.
Ravor
My reasoning for needing more axi is that with your Chrome/Black only where does the Black/Pink Mohawk/Cinematic/Street Scum/First-Person-Shooter Character fit in?

He's probably a troll who uses simple and reliable tech (Although of course said tech has got to have chrome inlays.) who is the first to let loose and open fire, but he is very, very good at it.

Where does the yin to his yang fit in? She's most likely an elf (With the Human-looking Edge) who is always looking for the latest concealable gear and tech and always tries to make sure that her target is already dead before he realises that she's killed him.
Ryu
The superhero angle that ended up under the chrome category is something especially the black pro chars will have. Think about it. Either magic or a cool quarter million in body enhancements and weapons, an attitude towards maintaining security and secrecy, a skill set that allows to do B&E jobs without being caught in the act.

So we arrive at "form follows function" or "function follows form". Both might be the same if there is a coolness factor to efficient high-tech equipment.


What makes a difference in playing style is the consequence of leaving evidence behind. The game type stressing punk elements has to have a higher suspension of disbelief because SOTA tech has no real problem identifying someone that does NOTHING to distinguish himself from the general public. "Get the one with the cyberarms and wired reflexes" is an easier order than "the suspect is human, male, yada, yada".

If you have problems accomodating certain "obvious" enhancements in your game, just assume that modern facial recognition software allows easy identification anyway. Its starting even today, only non-integrated data storage might save our privacy tomorrow. Thanks for both matrix crashes.
Stahlseele
that's what masks and cosmetics and nanite cream are for *g*
i'll have tu ask my GM's about the possibility of them trying something a little more Pulp Fiction Style . . basically, it's both black and chrome i'd think . .
Grinder
QUOTE (Ryu)
So we arrive at "form follows function" or "function follows form".

"Style over substance", anyone? biggrin.gif
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