Theres those jobs that pop up that involve two teams; the quiet team that does the actual bloodless B&E, perhaps a quick Stun spell to knock out a guard(if it even comes to that), the datasteal/extraction/demo charge plant/etc, and escape, drop the stuff, get new fake IDs and move on with no one the wiser...while team B(the Loud team), makes this even easier for them by causing a big ruckus. Wouldn't this technically be more of a Black job even then(since the real job is pulled off with no muss or fuss), even with a loud, distraction team? a combo job? The 'loud' team might well dump their IDs, go to safehouses and remove their nanopaste disguises afterward, fading into the shadows just as well; they simply had the 'loud' role in the run.
ahh well. both ways are fun, anyhow.
Full Version: Black vs. Chrome
| QUOTE (Grinder) | ||
"Style over substance", anyone?  |
That's what I said, back on Page 1.
These days I prefer really shiny Black, although, when the moon's right, I can go for some dark, dark Chrome.
| QUOTE (Mercer) | ||||
That's what I said, back on Page 1. |
I don't favor neither Black nor Chrome - it depends on the character I play and I can have fun with both styles.
1) Chrome chars may be black because being black is cool.
2) Black chars may be chrome because having chrome helps you get the job done.
So "Style over Substance" is taking option one even if there is an actual decision to make. I´ll clearly vote "Substance" if the chrome option conflicts with the concept of common sense, but "Style" whenever the PC in question can get away with it.
2) Black chars may be chrome because having chrome helps you get the job done.
So "Style over Substance" is taking option one even if there is an actual decision to make. I´ll clearly vote "Substance" if the chrome option conflicts with the concept of common sense, but "Style" whenever the PC in question can get away with it.
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| He's probably a troll who uses simple and reliable tech (Although of course said tech has got to have chrome inlays.) who is the first to let loose and open fire, but he is very, very good at it. |
He's Chrome. Very Chrome. Using Tech and being very good at what you do aren't necessarily Black. In fact, the best Chrome characters will use a large amount of tech (chrome-plated and with lots of blinking lights naturally, although sleek matte-black cases are almost as cool) and have exceptionally high dice pools. They'll do things loudly, and with ridiculous amounts of style (vaulting over tables, running up walls, blowing people away with a single shot that deals 23P because they've staged it up so far, etc).
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| Where does the yin to his yang fit in? She's most likely an elf (With the Human-looking Edge) who is always looking for the latest concealable gear and tech and always tries to make sure that her target is already dead before he realises that she's killed him. |
The second character could go either way, depending on how she's played, but the way you've described her, she sounds very Black. Sure, it could depend on what she does -after- she's iced the chump, but as Ryu mentioned, Chrome and Black aren't just 'Run styles, they're lifestyles. The Chrome 'Runner will kick back from a 'Run by going out clubbing at Dante's Inferno, or sitting in their fortress-like Headquarters cleaning her/his favorite gun that he/she's had for 37 'Runs now. The Black 'Runner will go to ground after a 'Run. Everything used on the run will disappear, including the 'Runner him/herself.
Most of the axi that Ravor mentioned -are- the Chrome/Black axis with a new name.
Pink Mohawks/Ice-Cold Pros = Chrome/Black respectively.
Gritty/Cinematic = Black/Chrome (although this is a false dichotomy, because you can have a Gritty game because it's cinematically cool, making it Chrome/Cinematic).
Ghost/First-Person-Shooter = Black/Chrome.
The one I didn't mention above, Street Scum/Hooder is also a false dichotomy. You can easily be Street Scum and still be (or try to be) a Hooder. I think what you want is Mercenary/Hooder (or Jayne/Mal for you Firefly fans). That is a more interesting dichotomy, although it is probably generally Black/Chrome as well, with Mercenary fitting into the Black category and Hooder being Chrome (just because it's difficult in a truly Black world to be a Hooder).
As several people have mentioned, the Chrome/Black dichotomy breaks down to a simple Style or Substance choice. If you're using a piece of gear because it's the loudest and the coolest (yes, this can mean because it has the best stats), then you're using that piece of gear for a Chrome reason. If you're using a piece of gear because it's the subtlest and most effective (yes, this can mean because it has the best stats, but more often also includes the flavor text--the MP-5TX, for instance, is supposed to be common as dirt, so using one when you need a submachinegun makes it easy to dump afterwards--the Ingram Warrior-10 may have better stats, but it screams "mercenary" rather than the bellowed "gutter punk" of the MP-5), then you're using that piece of gear for a Black reason. If most of your choices for a 'Run are made for Black reasons, you're probably closer to the Black end of the spectrum for that 'Run. If most of your 'Runs end up towards the Black end of the spectrum, you're probably a Black 'Runner.
Of course, this doesn't count those oddballs who make Black gear choices and then insist on playing smash-and-grab on a supposed-to-be-quiet voluntary extraction. That's Chrome... especially if it works.
| QUOTE (Roadspike) |
| Most of the axi that Ravor mentioned -are- the Chrome/Black axis with a new name. |
That is my point, Black/Chrome is painted with a too wide of brush when any given character can fall competely into sterotypes drawn from both sides of the equation. That is why you need more, narrower axi in order to gleen anything useful other then being able to say "There are different gaming styles and some of them don't work well together."
Y'know: I could ignore it when it was just Ravor, but since everyone else seemed to understand it...
What the heck is a 'Hooder'??? And how is that the 'opposite' of Street???
What the heck is a 'Hooder'??? And how is that the 'opposite' of Street???
| QUOTE (Spike) |
| What the heck is a 'Hooder'??? |
A 'Robin Hood'. A 'bad' person who tends to do 'good deeds'.
Ah. That makes much more sense than 'Someone from the Hood' or the alternative 'someone wearing a hoodie'.
Ravor: I suspect you are missing the forest for the trees. No one element should ever be taken as a sole indicator for where the game lies. First, that turns the entire thing into a binary choice, which it clearly shouldn't be, second there is a lot of cross over. If I were to science this up, I'd probably say there were too many crossover points for it to be a useful theory...
But its not a 'theory', its a catagorization method. Its only useful in relation to itself.
See: Someone above postulated a distraction run for a black team, then argued that because it was loud it was 'Chrome', while the run itself was 'Black'. I think this is wrong. The loudness of the run is a less important indicator than the reason for the loudness, the purpose and mentality. Its using an indicator as the whole thing, if you will. Its like watching a horse swat flies with it's tail and determining that horses are most useful as flyswatters.
Ravor: I suspect you are missing the forest for the trees. No one element should ever be taken as a sole indicator for where the game lies. First, that turns the entire thing into a binary choice, which it clearly shouldn't be, second there is a lot of cross over. If I were to science this up, I'd probably say there were too many crossover points for it to be a useful theory...
But its not a 'theory', its a catagorization method. Its only useful in relation to itself.
See: Someone above postulated a distraction run for a black team, then argued that because it was loud it was 'Chrome', while the run itself was 'Black'. I think this is wrong. The loudness of the run is a less important indicator than the reason for the loudness, the purpose and mentality. Its using an indicator as the whole thing, if you will. Its like watching a horse swat flies with it's tail and determining that horses are most useful as flyswatters.
I think that terms like chrome and black are best left as descriptors for the feel of a game or character; the motivations for why people play that way are a seperate issue and are better described with other terms that I will now shamelessly steal from others. For example "Gamists" that see Shadowrun as a challenge to be overcome can be either black OR chrome simply based on what they view as what is most likely to be effective in any given campaign. Optimized is optimized, whether it's for a high powered "chrome" game riding combat monsters and high technology to victory or a "black" run with bribery, tight time tables and carefully chosen bioware and sniper rifles. The same can be said with "simulationist" type players; some of the bitterest tabletop feuds I have seen have been between players who both sincerely believe in staying "true" to Shadowrun. This quickly becomes a problem when one guy thinks that means Pink Mohawks, Nightrider and neo-anarchists while the other guy insists on Philip K. Dick and Ronin.
Don't get me wrong Spike, I see the position where you are coming from, I just can't agree with it for the reasons that I've already stated, without more "trees" I think it does try to force alot of square pegs into round holes even when used as a catagorization tool, to paraphrase my understanding of nezumi's, Stahlseele's and mfb's first posts in this thread, campaigns, teams, and even characters themselves all draw from various traits that you have lumped into either Chrome or Black, and when in order to properly classify any given game you have to look at factors beyond the traits listed I don't see it as anything other then saying "There are many different styles of playing Shadowrun and not all of them work well together."
Now with that said I do think it is an interesting starting point to be explored.
Now with that said I do think it is an interesting starting point to be explored.
Then I offer the first thing that does divide campaigns: money.
Regardless of starting point, some campaigns do not want the chars to advance. Their success is defending themselves against the evil society. Any larger windfall goes to securing the future, smaller ones pay the rent. This works both for street level and BlackOps campaings, keeping in place is key.
On the other hand some campaigns have player power grow in leaps and bounds. The chars now every bit of information in Augmentation as well as their player. Every few runs, something new is affordable.
There needs to be a compromise between all involved, but all players in my history of playing SR had strong preferences to one or the other.
Regardless of starting point, some campaigns do not want the chars to advance. Their success is defending themselves against the evil society. Any larger windfall goes to securing the future, smaller ones pay the rent. This works both for street level and BlackOps campaings, keeping in place is key.
On the other hand some campaigns have player power grow in leaps and bounds. The chars now every bit of information in Augmentation as well as their player. Every few runs, something new is affordable.
There needs to be a compromise between all involved, but all players in my history of playing SR had strong preferences to one or the other.
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| Eye witnesses are only unreliable if you're relying on their meat eyes and their meat memories. The cybereyes they've got, the cell phone cameras/commlinks they're carrying (even nowadays), the camera mounted on their gun or on the dash of their car or on the street corner or on the ATM or on a spy drone or in their sunglasses, the spirit sent after you...are all reliable enough. Being invisible in The Sixth World takes a lot more work than in ours. The old "ask ten people what happened, get ten different stories" saw isn't necessarily as true in 2070 as it is today (and it's not even as true today as it was ten years ago!). |
Of course, but that doesnt mean that it will get saved by the person observing. And if you want to be really really sure you hack the bystanders open crap firewalls PAN's and delete or upload false images.
And mabye that over the top style is just for show and once run is over you ditch the pink one and pull out a purple one..
But all in all it doesnt matter if your black or chrome if spirits are involved they will find you anyway unless you got a really good team mage. Nor are you able to hack everything around the scene you are going to bust, unless you prep for days and weeks ahead but that increases your chances you will be detected before the run etc.| QUOTE |
| Of course, but that doesnt mean that it will get saved by the person observing. And if you want to be really really sure you hack the bystanders open crap firewalls PAN's and delete or upload false images. |
FRAG, with SR4 and wireless matrix the laughing man scenario is possible o.O
Remember that people have their own interests in mind as well, and being a snitch in Shadowrun isn't for amateurs. Life in the Sixth World can be an awful lot like spending your whole life in one of those saloons from a spaghetti western. You raise your voice to the wrong guy and everyone in the bar will make a point to remember to say they drank somewhere else that night. Nine times out of ten the smart thing to do in Shadowrun is to just keep on walking and keep your eyes safely on the trid. Ridiculous amounts of selfishness and corruption are about the only things capable of making the setting seem remotely plausible.
We have both types of characters based on the different players. Usually the 'black' types running and planning it with the chrome types being 'turned loose' when the drek hit the fan.
yeah, that's how we play mostly *g*
i let them do their cool sneaky stuff . . and wait for the inevitable time when one of them frags up . . then i do something that makes other people want to hurt me and go in weapons blazing to get them out *g*
i let them do their cool sneaky stuff . . and wait for the inevitable time when one of them frags up . . then i do something that makes other people want to hurt me and go in weapons blazing to get them out *g*
Something else that devides campaigns rather sharply is the appearent darkness of the world, after all, are the Megas openly akin to Dark Age Lords, Robber Barrons, and pre-union Bosses, or do they have to at least appear to be something that is acceptable to American Sensitablities, circi 2007?
Well, a SR3 sourcebook said that the UCAS Department of Justice still maintains an Antitrust Division. If you can believe that, you can believe anything.
It is not implausible at all. It enforces anti-trust laws within UCAS territory. It just so happens that none of the megacorps are operating within UCAS territory.
Are you kidding me? The megacorps love trust busting! In fact, they've all agreed they will do it together.
How did this morph into an 'Anti-trust' thread?
So it's an argument between personal styles - flashy versus anonymous with the assumption that one is more realistic than the other.
Mind you, "wardrobe and fashion" can be every much as deadly in some social circles as ninjitsu and thai boxing.
The question then becomes, is your GM inclined to use those aspects? If your GM isn't going to acknowledge the notion of "Oh no, dahling, that pink tutu is so last year!" in roleplay or game mechanic, there isn't much point to it.
-Siege
Mind you, "wardrobe and fashion" can be every much as deadly in some social circles as ninjitsu and thai boxing.
The question then becomes, is your GM inclined to use those aspects? If your GM isn't going to acknowledge the notion of "Oh no, dahling, that pink tutu is so last year!" in roleplay or game mechanic, there isn't much point to it.
-Siege
Basically, although I'd agrue that the line is more then just flash vs ghost, a world that is home for the Pink Mohawk Crowd is going to feel different then one that was designed for Ice Cold Pros, the corps are going to act differently, people will dress and behave differently, hell, the weather is probably even going to be used differently by the DM.
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