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Abbandon
Hi. The core book talks about limiting spells when you learn them which require fetishes but it doesnt talk about fetishes anywhere else!!!

#1. How much do they cost??
#2. Do you have to bond them?

In the section on Foci it says you can only use one foci to help with any particular spell.

#3. Can you use a foci and a fetish for the same spell?
#4. Do fetishs have a maximum number that you can have? Do they count towards a foci's max limit of Logic?

Can you make a foci/fetish be a tatoo?? Bond the ink and then get it tatoo'ed into your skin?

How would you guys feel about cosmetic surgeries to insert objects into the body?? The best most vivid example I could think of is how some people get different kind of body studs. Like spikes along their forehead or the top of their heads.
Narse
Ok I'll take a crack at this:
1. Costs are listed on Page 340 of SR4. The cost varies by spell type.
2. No, but they have to be attuned to the magician and the Spell. Spells are attuned to a specific fetish when they are learned. (Essentially this only becomes an issue during game play if you lose your fetish(es), There are no complications at chargen.)
3. The section on foci says that "only one focus may add its Force to any single dice pool." So actually you can have a power focus help you cast a spell and then use a spellcasting focus to help resist the drain from that same spell. The foci section mentions nothing about fetishes, so I'd assume you can use both on the same test, especially as you don't really have a choice about the fetish; without it you can't cast the spell.
4. Nope. Fetishes cannot be activated, and aren't foci, so they don't count against the number of bound foci (magic) or active foci (logic).

Tatoos: I really don't think so. Both foci and fetishes must be enchanted (see Street Magic) and I don't think that can be done on ink. It should be noted that the Tatooing Metamagic present in previous editions of SR was very similar to Quickening. In fact, I think you could use Quikening as Tatooing by specifying your quickening materials to be Inks.

Now, as a GM I would be highly opposed to any character implanting their fetishes or foci. Sure it could work, but it removes the primary disadvantage (i.e. game balancing mechanism) of fetishes and to a lesser extent foci (I consider their primary disadvantage to be cost). The GM could easily rule that such an invasive surgery would cost essence loss. The only implantations that do not seem to cause essence loss are of Items/spaces of micro size or less (e.g. RFID tags, tooth compartments). That being said, I think there was one example in one of the novels of a focus in the form of an earing. Which I would probably allow.
Abbandon
Man I Just hate the idea of having a mage that is all tatoo'ed up and them not actually doing anything. Shamans draw and make stuff and play music you know they would decorate their own bodies too.

Oh well, thanx for the reply.
Ravor
Also if I remember correctly, the newest IE on the block has a focus of some sort wrapped around her thigh bone, so it seems that implanted foci does work.

However, in Fourth by RAW if getting a new face costs Essence then so should wrapping a piece of magical metal around one of your bones. However, personally I've already houseruled that part of AUG away so in my games it's perfectly doable, BUT the downside is that due to the special interactions that has to take place implanted foci costs more and shine in the Mage's Aura.
Prime Mover
QUOTE (Abbandon)
Man I Just hate the idea of having a mage that is all tatoo'ed up and them not actually doing anything. Shamans draw and make stuff and play music you know they would decorate their own bodies too.

Oh well, thanx for the reply.

Tattoos are still in SR4 there just used in Quickening now. Pg 85 SM Using quickening materials to bind a spell leave a brand,ritual scar or tattoo.
Ancient History
QUOTE (Abbandon)
How would you guys feel about cosmetic surgeries to insert objects into the body?? The best most vivid example I could think of is how some people get different kind of body studs. Like spikes along their forehead or the top of their heads.

You can implant foci-hell, you could enchant a cyberarm as a weapon focus and have fun with our unarmed attacks-but you have to enchant the 'ware before you implant it. The focus will still be visible (and vulnerable) in the target's aura when activated; the rest of the time it'll look like any other implant.

Re: Tattoo fetishes -> It was considered, but the main point of having a fetish or talisman is that it can potentially by taken away. Ripping out a fetish earring or tongue stud might not be as easy as picking somebody's pocket to get rid of their lucky rabbit's foot, but it's decidedly easier than trying to carve off the chunk of hide on your ass where you've got that tattoo hidden. In your own games, it's really up to you.
kzt
It takes all the fun that you get when you get kicked out of the banditios or the angels and they want ALL the gang insignia returned. Tattoos included. (Though they will typically accept it if you ink them out, assuming you didn't really piss them off.)
Abbandon
Heh well the first thing that comes to mind about tatoo fetishs and you guys saying there are no disadvantges. What if another mage cast a laser removal spell lol. or pulled a magneto and like sucked the metal/ink out of your body.

Is that quickening stuff in Street magic? I dont have that.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Abbandon)
What if another mage cast a laser removal spell lol. or pulled a magneto and like sucked the metal/ink out of your body.

Yes, surely that is a far more likely scenario than someone doing something unkind to a focus which is pinned to your shirt or held in your hand. sarcastic.gif
Nothing is foolproof, but tattoo foci are relatively fool-resistant.
Aaron
QUOTE (Narse)
3. The section on foci says that "only one focus may add its Force to any single dice pool." So actually you can have a power focus help you cast a spell and then use a spellcasting focus to help resist the drain from that same spell.

Did something get changed and we can use foci on Drain Tests now?
Fortune
QUOTE (Aaron @ Dec 4 2007, 10:31 AM)
Did something get changed and we can use foci on Drain Tests now?

Always could. wink.gif

There is some controversy through the Errata over that particular use in connection with Spellcasting Foci (and only Spellcasting Foci) though.
Aaron
QUOTE (Fortune @ Dec 3 2007, 07:57 PM)
QUOTE (Aaron @ Dec 4 2007, 10:31 AM)
Did something get changed and we can use foci on Drain Tests now?

Always could. wink.gif

Wait, are you talking about spell foci (which are explicitly for Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting dice pools, which aren't Drain Resistance dice pools) or power foci (which are explicitly for tests involving the Magic attribute, which do not include Drain Resistance Tests)?
Jaid
go to page 191 of your core book.

read the brief paragraph under "spellcasting foci" wink.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (Aaron)
Wait, are you talking about spell foci (which are explicitly for Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting dice pools, which aren't Drain Resistance dice pools) or power foci (which are explicitly for tests involving the Magic attribute, which do not include Drain Resistance Tests)?

Power Foci cannot be used for Drain tests, but Summoning and Spellcasting Foci (despite the Errata) can be utilized in that manner.
Aaron
QUOTE (Jaid)
go to page 191 of your core book.

read the brief paragraph under "spellcasting foci" wink.gif

I did here's what I read:

QUOTE (p. 191 @ SR4)
Spellcasting foci add their Force to a magician’s Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting dice pools. These dice may be used to cast a spell more effectively as long as it of the category appropriate to the focus.

My copy includes the errata.

QUOTE (Fortune)
Power Foci cannot be used for Drain tests, but Summoning and Spellcasting Foci (despite the Errata) can be utilized in that manner.

I don't recall that being written in any SR4 book I'm familiar with, nor is it addressed in the FAQ. Could you offer a reference? Or is this a house rule that you prefer?
Ancient History
In the original version of SR4, there is a line on Spellcasting, Summoning, and Binding foci to the effect that dice from the foci can be withheld from the test to help with Drain. This was actually a reference to an SR3 rule, and is noted in the FAQ:
QUOTE
In SR4, can you withhold dice from a Sorcery or Conjuring Test and use those dice instead to resist Drain, as you could in SR3?

This rule was dropped in SR4 -- it was a special case rule that didn't apply to any other mechanics in the game. If you happen to like it, you can of course continue to use it in your own games as a house rule.
Fortune
You could withhold dice during Summoning in SR3 without using Foci of any kind. I believe that is the question being answered in the FAQ.


Aaron: I have SR4 v1.3, and it reads ...

QUOTE (SR4 pg191)
Spellcasting foci add their Force to a magician’s Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting dice pools. These dice may be used to cast a spell more effectively or withheld to help the magician with Drain.


QUOTE
Summoning foci add their Force in dice to any attempt to summon the appropriate type of spirit. These dice may be used for the Summoning Test, or they may be withheld to help resist Drain.


QUOTE
Binding foci add their Force to the magician’s Magic + Binding dice pool when binding an appropriate type of spirit, or the extra dice may be withheld to help resist Drain. A binding focus can also add its dice when the magician is re-binding a spirit.
MaxMahem
I have no problem with a focus (ie a tool to augment ones power) like a power or sustaining or whatever focus bing crafted as a tattoo. It would cost a little bit more, but I really like the flavor of the idea. Obviously a tattoo focus would have some drawbacks like being fairly hard to conceal (I would rule that they would have to be fairly significant in size). And if the focus was active you might become partial dual natured, making you vulnerable to attacks from the astral plane.

I would not allow a tattoo to be used as a fetish (ie a crutch a magician requires to cast a spell). As Ancient History says one of the drawbacks of a fetish is that it can be taken away, potentially robbing you of the power. Obviously this limitation is much harder to apply to a tattoo.
Aaron
QUOTE (Fortune)
Aaron: I have SR4 v1.3, and it reads ...

May I recommend updating your version to the most recent version?
Fortune
QUOTE (Aaron)
QUOTE (Fortune)
Aaron: I have SR4 v1.3, and it reads ...

May I recommend updating your version to the most recent version?

As I have said multiple times in this thread alone, I am fully aware of what the latest Errata says. I will even quote the entirety of the changes to the text of page 191, which applies only to Spellcasting Foci, as I have alluded to a few times already.

QUOTE (SR4 Errata v1.5)
p. 191 Spellcasting Foci [4]
The second line should read: "These dice may be used to cast a spell more effectively as long as it of the category appropriate to the focus.?


Absolutely no mention of any changes to the other Foci that I listed above (which is why I listed all three instead of just Spellcasting Foci alone). You might even note the reference to the Errata (you even quoted said reference) in that very same post.
Aaron
QUOTE (Fortune)
Absolutely no mention of any changes to the other Foci that I listed above (which is why I listed all three instead of just Spellcasting Foci alone). You might even note the reference to the Errata (you even quoted said reference) in that very same post.

I did, indeed, notice that you listed three references from the book, but I was puzzled as to why. I had thought we were talking about spellcasting foci.
Abbandon
Ok I have more questions!!! Try to forget about what foci can be used when hehehe.

-I cant find anything about casting spells AT Foci/Fetish in order to kill them/disrupt them. Anyone have page references in the core book or can talk about it? If I have an active foci on my character what all can happen to it or me due to the actions of an enemy mage.

-What are some good examples of the forms a fetish can take. If you use fetishes how do you store them on your person? I love the concept of having like a medicine pound either around my neck or a bag tied off on my waste but those seem really easy to steal. Whats the best way to secure them without crossing the line of removing the disadvantage of maybe losing them.

Each spell catagory is tied to a spirit type. So I was thinking I would have bits of animal for beast fetishs, rocks or pebbles for earth fetishs. What would you guys use for air spirit related fetishes? What about fire and water?

Oh I was thinking high tech the other night. Having little sqaure chunks of metal that have had things etched into their surface on a microscopic/nano level. For a mage their would be desgins and for shamans they would be more artistic images.


Fortune
QUOTE (Aaron)
I did, indeed, notice that you listed three references from the book, but I was puzzled as to why. I had thought we were talking about spellcasting foci.


Throughout this thread, I have always been talking about more than just Spellcasting Foci.

QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Aaron @ Dec 4 2007, 10:31 AM)
Did something get changed and we can use foci on Drain Tests now?

Always could. wink.gif

There is some controversy through the Errata over that particular use in connection with Spellcasting Foci (and only Spellcasting Foci) though.


You even quoted me as talking about such, and questioned me on it.

QUOTE (Aaron)
QUOTE (Fortune)
Power Foci cannot be used for Drain tests, but Summoning and Spellcasting Foci (despite the Errata) can be utilized in that manner.

I don't recall that being written in any SR4 book I'm familiar with, nor is it addressed in the FAQ. Could you offer a reference? Or is this a house rule that you prefer?


I fail to see where your confusion comes from.

There is some debate as to whether the Errata for Spellcasting Foci was inadvertently changed to disallow its use for Drain, because the original printing had an extra half sentence that did need to be deleted. Note that the two other Foci that I listed (as for the reason I listed them, you stated that you did not recall Spellcasting or Summoning Foci being described as being used in Drain tests in a SR book, as I quoted above) have not been Errata'ed (in two editions, since the Spellcasting Foci change was in the 4th Errata, and as you note we are now on the 5th), which is telling evidence that a mistake may have been made.
Aaron
QUOTE (Abbandon)
-I cant find anything about casting spells AT Foci/Fetish in order to kill them/disrupt them. Anyone have page references in the core book or can talk about it? If I have an active foci on my character what all can happen to it or me due to the actions of an enemy mage.

I use the Barrier Rating table on page 157. A focus is an object, after all.
Aaron
QUOTE (Fortune)
I fail to see where your confusion comes from.

Re-read my first post in this thread.
Tarantula
Any active foci can be attacked in astral space via astral combat or mana spells to disable it. It resists with force (or possibly double force, don't quite remember).
Cain
A focus or a fetish can also be attacked in the mundane world, as if it were any other object. The trick is recognizing it as a focus or fetish.
Fortune
QUOTE (Aaron @ Dec 6 2007, 10:30 AM)
QUOTE (Fortune @ Dec 5 2007, 07:16 PM)
I fail to see where your confusion comes from.

Re-read my first post in this thread.

I quoted your first post in this thread numerous times. I'll do it again.

QUOTE (Aaron)
QUOTE (Narse @ Dec 3 2007, 03:58 AM)
3. The section on foci says that "only one focus may add its Force to any single dice pool." So actually you can have a power focus help you cast a spell and then use a spellcasting focus to help resist the drain from that same spell.

Did something get changed and we can use foci on Drain Tests now?


You might note the total lack of any mention of Spellcasting Foci in your post. Even if we do assume that the Errata is correct in regards to Spellcasting Foci and Drain, that still leaves Binding and Summoning Foci that are still usable in Drain tests, which is what I have been trying to explain to you.
Narse
Anyone know a reason why they erratta'd spellcasting foci so that they couldn't be used on drain resistance tests without changing the others? If not then I'm inclined to allow its use for drain resistance (in any games I run). I don't see any reason why it would be unbalancing or illogical or anything along those lines. If you have some idea, I'd appreciate hearing about it.
Jaid
i would allow spellcasting foci to add to drain resistance simply because power focus is a complete replacement for them otherwise, personally.
Aaron
QUOTE (Fortune)
You might note the total lack of any mention of Spellcasting Foci in your post.

If by "total lack of any mention" you mean "mentioned in the quoted text," then I agree with you.

QUOTE (Cain)
A focus or a fetish can also be attacked in the mundane world, as if it were any other object. The trick is recognizing it as a focus or fetish.

Excellent point. You may have just hit on a very good reason to use (or buy) Astral Perception.

QUOTE (Narse)
Anyone know a reason why they erratta'd spellcasting foci so that they couldn't be used on drain resistance tests without changing the others? If not then I'm inclined to allow its use for drain resistance (in any games I run). I don't see any reason why it would be unbalancing or illogical or anything along those lines. If you have some idea, I'd appreciate hearing about it.

Well, first and foremost, it's your game, so you can run it any way you like. As to why they'd remove focus dice for Drain (even if only from spellcasting, thank you, Fortune), I can think of two reasons. First, it streamlines the game a bit. Second, spellcasting Drain is pretty cheap. As to why spellcasting would be disallowed while summoning and banishing are still fair game, the Drain for conjuring can be (and tends to be) much more harsh than for spells; an allowance for a Drain resistance bonus could be an attempt to make that less harsh. These are just (educated, I'd like to think) guesses on my part.

QUOTE (Jaid)
i would allow spellcasting foci to add to drain resistance simply because power focus is a complete replacement for them otherwise, personally.

I disagree with your reasoning. A power focus is, what, something like two-thirds more in nuyen and twice the karma, ne? There's a balancing act there as far as efficiency goes. If you have a caster that tends to use more than two categories on a regular basis, then a power focus would be the way to go. On the other hand, one can get twice the Force out of a spellcasting focus for the same Karma, so there's an opportunity cost there, too.
Ancient History
QUOTE (Narse)
Anyone know a reason why they erratta'd spellcasting foci so that they couldn't be used on drain resistance tests without changing the others?

If I had to float a guess, I'd call it a simple oversight. It seems very clear that the intent was to remove an erronous reference to an old rule.

As far as not using foci to aid with Drain tests, my guess is they used the logic that since the foci added to a specific skill, and that skill is not used to handle drain, neither should the focus. Or maybe it was just an accidental removal when they tried to fix the retention rule reference.

QUOTE
because power focus is a complete replacement for them otherwise, personally.

Not...quite. If (and the edition is young, it might happen) you ever had a Spellcasting or Ritual Spellcasting skill Test that didn't use magic, a spellcasting focus would help you while a power focus would not. Besides which, they're cheaper. nyahnyah.gif

QUOTE
-What are some good examples of the forms a fetish can take. If you use fetishes how do you store them on your person? I love the concept of having like a medicine pound either around my neck or a bag tied off on my waste but those seem really easy to steal. Whats the best way to secure them without crossing the line of removing the disadvantage of maybe losing them.

Generally small, personal items. Rings, for example, a variety of amulets, mojo bags, chicken's foot on a leather thong, daggers, headbands, paper charms, watches, scrolls-there is no set standard. You might check Street Magic for some ideas, though.

QUOTE
-I cant find anything about casting spells AT Foci/Fetish in order to kill them/disrupt them. Anyone have page references in the core book or can talk about it? If I have an active foci on my character what all can happen to it or me due to the actions of an enemy mage.

According to Street Magic, active foci are dual natured (meaning you can target them with Mana spells on the astral plane, though only Physical damage will affect them); active foci possess astral forms that accompany the astral form of the owner when projecting.

Abbandon
Ok I have a very simple question this time.

"Fetishes are...made for a specific catagory of spells."

"When the spell is learned it is attuned to that particular fetish"

Does that mean each spell needs its own fetish or that you can attune multiple spells to the same fetish as long as it is the proper catagory??
Ancient History
Each spell needs its own fetish, each fetish must be of the proper category for the spell it is attuned to.
Stahlseele
can't believe nobody made that crack yet . . ever tried to focus on anything else while confronted with your fetish? *g*
xicidis
Howdy. Back to the tattoo thing.

If you make it a Geas: "Touch tattoo" it would work. Make a tattoo for each spell, then it will amke him want to run around barechested, or only in a vest, needing to touch the tattoos. How would you see them anyway.
Cain
If you make it a geas, then it doesn't matter if it's a fetish or focus. It's basically a modified Talisman geas, with the additional caveat that it cannot be taken away.
xicidis
Right, but he said something like "I don't want them to mean nothing." That's how we did tattoo mages, they took a geas starting to touch them to use. It's like the chanting geas. You can't take it away. But you can cover the tattoo, or bind his hands to keep him from touching them.
Stahlseele
the most important difference between foci and fetish?
foci=plural(several)
fetish=singular(one)
Cain
QUOTE (xicidis @ Dec 20 2008, 02:39 AM) *
Right, but he said something like "I don't want them to mean nothing." That's how we did tattoo mages, they took a geas starting to touch them to use. It's like the chanting geas. You can't take it away. But you can cover the tattoo, or bind his hands to keep him from touching them.

Unless, of course, the tattoos are on his hands. That would be a Condition geas (must be holding hands together), which may or may not fly at individual tables; he could be holding a gun between his hands and still fulfill the geas. If you mean you want to restrict the armor a mage can wear while fulfilling a geas, then you may as well make it: "Must be barechested".
Falconer
QUOTE (Aaron @ Dec 5 2007, 11:16 PM) *
I disagree with your reasoning. A power focus is, what, something like two-thirds more in nuyen and twice the karma, ne? There's a balancing act there as far as efficiency goes. If you have a caster that tends to use more than two categories on a regular basis, then a power focus would be the way to go. On the other hand, one can get twice the Force out of a spellcasting focus for the same Karma, so there's an opportunity cost there, too.


You've missed something else here. Spellcasting focus is specific to a single school of magic as well. So even though it's only half the cost, it would only add dice to say combat spells for a combat spell focus. I quote "Each spell focus must be attuned to a specific category of spells", and that applies to all 3 spellcasting, counterspelling, and sustaining foci.

Spirit foci have a similar restriction where they're limited to a single type of spirit.

So I'm also inclined to agree w/ the original poster... w/o the ability to withhold the focus dice. They're BADLY overcosted. There's a reason why power focus, sustaining foci, and some of the other advanced metamagic focus are really the only worthwhile ones. For twice the price, I get the power focus and add the dice to all the casting tests and completely ignore the other 'minor' foci as they're simply not worth the cost generally.

I have no idea what the current state of the errata is since it keeps changing for reasons I can't fathom.
Fortune
There is no point in Spellcasting Foci unless they can be used on the Drain Resistance test. They are fair value if they can be used in such a manner though. The Errata is weird, and wrong as far as I am concerned.
Hagga
QUOTE (Ravor @ Dec 3 2007, 03:26 PM) *
Also if I remember correctly, the newest IE on the block has a focus of some sort wrapped around her thigh bone, so it seems that implanted foci does work.

Frosty's focus was blown up, and it was her thigh bone transformed by her father to hide her from any magicians not as potent or versed in magical lore

So, basically, anyone bar Harlequin. The other IE's could probably poke their heads in with a bit more effort, but they'd have to know it was there. And isn't the Blood Queen's Daughter the newest IE?
KCKitsune
Hey quick question about a fetish: What would everyone here say about a Chaos Mage with a fetish in the form of a rune covered Datachip?

I can see the "reason" for the reduced drain is because of the "programs" that were put on to the chip by the Chaos Mage.
AngelisStorm
A rune covered datachip isn't any different from a rabbit's foot. More power.
MaxMahem
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Dec 21 2008, 12:26 AM) *
Hey quick question about a fetish: What would everyone here say about a Chaos Mage with a fetish in the form of a rune covered Datachip?

I can see the "reason" for the reduced drain is because of the "programs" that were put on to the chip by the Chaos Mage.

Sure why not? Cost and what not would of course remain the same.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (MaxMahem @ Dec 21 2008, 12:29 AM) *
Sure why not? Cost and what not would of course remain the same.


Of course!

Also the datachip would be set to read only because ANY change in the structure (an data written to it) would destroy it's ability to be a fetish.

Now would any of you allow that datachip fetish to have data on it before it was changed into fetish.
Cain
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Dec 21 2008, 02:39 AM) *
Of course!

Also the datachip would be set to read only because ANY change in the structure (an data written to it) would destroy it's ability to be a fetish.

Now would any of you allow that datachip fetish to have data on it before it was changed into fetish.

Sure, why not? A fetish can be anything.

In fact, given that everything is wireless in SR4, your fetishes are probably wireless-enabled to start with, and have unlimited storage memory.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Cain @ Dec 21 2008, 07:03 AM) *
Sure, why not? A fetish can be anything.

In fact, given that everything is wireless in SR4, your fetishes are probably wireless-enabled to start with, and have unlimited storage memory.


Actually I believe that the SR4 BBB states that once a focus or a fetish it is created it can NOT be changed at *ALL*. If I were running the game and the Chaos Mage used his fetish data chip to record data then I would say that the fetish would be destroyed.
Cain
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Dec 21 2008, 07:17 AM) *
Actually I believe that the SR4 BBB states that once a focus or a fetish it is created it can NOT be changed at *ALL*. If I were running the game and the Chaos Mage used his fetish data chip to record data then I would say that the fetish would be destroyed.

I'm afraid you're wrong. Neither section in the BBB mentions that a focus cannot be cosmetically altered at all, let alone a fetish. If that were the case, a weapon focus that took so much as a chip to the blade would be rendered forever useless.
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