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Stahlseele
it means you don't have to deal with much fatigue modificators and can keep on ritualing for days on end for example. . and it alows for longer material gathering times and for a job on the side etc. etc. etc.
Mr. Unpronounceable
Not to mention that staying up for 48 hours at a time (stakeouts, hiding somewhere unsafe) without the side effect of not being able to rest (stim patches) or passing out for a day or more afterward (long haul) is rather handy for any shadowrunner (and especially a mage) and only having to sleep for a couple hours at a time minimizes time spent effectively helpless.
darthmord
QUOTE (Glayvin34)
QUOTE (Jaid @ Dec 5 2007, 05:16 PM)
for whatever reason, normal vision provides an astral link. presumably this is somehow related to the fact that the light bounces off of the target and then enters your eyes.

when you use a camera, the light bounces of a target, enters a camera, and then a bunch of lights somewhere else create an image of that object which enters your eyes.

thus, you could nuke the crud out of the image you're perceiving (maybe even the projectors), but nuking the actual target doesn't work.

That makes perfect sense, the consensus seems to be based on the light itself. If light that emanated from the target hits your eyes, you have an astral link and can cast, even if that light bounced off mirrors or went through a fiberoptic cable. Anything other than light directly from your target does not generate an astral link.

And I guess it has to be enough light for your brain to recognize the target. If there's not enough light to see the target, but some computer system outlines the appropriate blob in the dark, that's not good enough, or vision enhancements would allow spell casting. After all, there's always at least a few photons bouncing around.

What it boils down to is that the point of conversion from light to information must occur within the caster initially rather than in some device and then be passed to the caster.

This is why a reflection in a mirror and (standard optical) binoculars both work while looking at someone on a video screen does not for spellcasting purposes.

This is also why the radar / sonar mods don't help you spellcast. Those devices perform conversion on the data and then give it to you.
GryMor
Skill wires 3 (Like I have karma to learn new skills, and since it avoids defaulting, it's like getting 3-5 dice for all the non magic skills you care about)
Trauma Damper (Drain taken 3 -> 2)
Platelet Factory (Drain taken 2-> 1)

A few other bits and pieces. I personally don't care for Pain Editors (due to the Damper incompatibility), but then my goal was to have enough drain resistance to reliably knock max force spells down to the 1-3 drain range so I only eat a box at a time and let my medkit & biomonitor fix that up before I take any more.

Spells can cover attribute and IP boosts, when you need them, but can also be given to your friends.
Whipstitch
Yeah, sleep regulators are definitely a case of YMMV, but with the right group they are pretty good. Just make sure to have a good idea of how much handwaving of timetables and downtime your GM does and make the decision from there. It can really be priceless for those who design their own spells or write their own code though.
Carver
I'm one of those weirdos that doesn't like taking any bio/cyber on my awakened characters, even if it does make them a bit weaker than they would otherwise be *shrug*.
Glayvin34
QUOTE (Carver)
I'm one of those weirdos that doesn't like taking any bio/cyber on my awakened characters, even if it does make them a bit weaker than they would otherwise be *shrug*.

I feel you on that one. I was very skeptical about the whole -1 to basically all my dice pools for a single essence point. And it does seem kinda... wrong.
But I was rarely casting at a high force for fear of drain. After a little bioware I got my drain dice to 14 so I now can overcast willynilly.
HappyDaze
QUOTE
I'm one of those weirdos that doesn't like taking any bio/cyber on my awakened characters, even if it does make them a bit weaker than they would otherwise be *shrug*.

I tend to agree, and in my game it's varied considerably from character to character. My Druid is full-on Essence 6 (and no, I did not take Sensitive System), but my friend's Chaos Mage is sitting at Essence 5 with a few nice toys. I havn't noticed any disruptive power differences between them.
Narse
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Dec 6 2007, 09:33 AM)
I generally just have my magician target astrally if vision mods are a problem.  It's not really any more dangerous - pretty much anything that can ruin your day on the astral can screw you on the physical too, and you do keep a watcher on astral lookout at all times, right?

How does this work? I thought I remembered a section in The Awakened World that said you had to be on the same plane as your target. Clarifications would be much appreciated.

Edit: Oh, I suppose I should say that I would be really very interested in where in the rules it says this is possible (or implies it by omission).
Thanks.
Fortune
QUOTE (Narse @ Dec 7 2007, 09:41 AM)
How does this work? I thought I remembered a section in The Awakened World that said you had to be on the same plane as your target. Clarifications would be much appreciated.

When you Astrally Perceive (not Project), you are basically becoming Dual-Natured, existing on both 'planes' at once. You can then cast spells at an valid target on ether 'plane', but cannot affect both 'planes' with the same spell.

Edit: Found the quote ...

QUOTE (SR4 pg173)
A magician in the physical world can only cast spells on targets that are in the physical world. Similarly, a magician in astral space can only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be targeted). An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual natured) magician can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral space. An astral target can only be affected by mana spells—even if the magician is in the physical world astrally perceiving—as it has no physical presence
Tarantula
Narse, just because you are astrally perceiving doesn't make you stop existing on the physical plane. You can use astral perception to target spells on the physical plane because you are dual natured while astrally perceiving and thusly present on both planes. You can't do this while astrally projecting because you are only present on the astral plane and thusly can't affect the physical plane.
Narse
Thanks for the quote Fortune. It is much appreciated.

Oh, and Tarantula: The (misguided) perception I was working under was that anything on the Astral can't affect anything on the Physical. I guess I rationalized the Dual Natured aspect of Perception away because when you Astrally Perceive you "move" your senses to the Astral, just without leaving your body. In hindsight it is a pretty bad rationalization, but so are some of my rationalizations of other rules that are cannon. Its surprising how easy it is to rationalize things. (except for the Bone lacing legality.... ohplease.gif )
Ted Stewart
It never ceases to amaze me the amount of discussion a question on DumpShock generates. Thanks all!
Falconer
In terms of cyber, I see some items which seem like they beat magic by a longshot. The old .6 worth of cyber, and .7 worth of bio seems like a sweet deal (or vice versa). But I haven't played SR4 enough to say one way or another what looks best to spend that limited budget on.


Slight Tangent:
Actually regards thermal vision races and mods... In the past, I've had people consider this to be a mixed blessing. IE: racial/bioware based visual enhancement is an enhancement to your vision. Not a completely seperate sense.
EG: if you know you may have trouble w/ a troll gang in the barrens... bring some thermal smoke to blind them while still leaving yourself able to operate. Same goes if you had your thermo optics on... someone blinds that you're blind until you turn it off.

It wasn't uncommon for any thermovision based chars to take a mod on their own eyewear (contacts, glasses, goggles) to block IR light to provide an on/off switch for their always on thermovision. IE: if the goggles had a Thermo mod on them, the thermo mod when switched on would absorb the IR light and display it as normal visual light blocking it and stopping the blinding. Personally I think that is a pretty fair way to play it.

Otherwise, I don't like the cybereye rules. If it was bioware mods only (giving yourself the equivalent of racial low-light or thermoptic... then I don't think it'd be an issue). Bioware mods are more expensive than 'cheap' cybereyes so it makes it a harder choice. I could even see cybernetic lens if you don't replace the the actual biological retina for telescopic effects. I don't understand why the authors made it so easily to see anything anytime (barring full darkness and thermal smoke both at the same time), even then target by assense is an option but opens you up to astral assaults which your teammates can't help you against.
Whipstitch
It's worth mentioning that not all modifiers are instantly defeated by astral vision. It defeats say, lighting, but I don't see anything anywhere seeing that you can magically, say, see through smoke particles. After all, even if they're small I don't see why enough of them wouldn't create shadows on the astral.
Sir_Psycho
What people aren't understanding is that trolls and dwarves don't JUST have thermovision. It's not an overlay either. They can see just as well as any other metatype. They know that the green wire is green, whether it is cool or not (hello, thousands of dwarf technicians can't be wrong), and if some-how obstruct or blind their thermovision, their other vision is not defeated. Just because your thermal signature is lost in a sea of red desert, it doesn't mean that the troll or dwarf won't instantly spot your mohawk coming over the ridge.

Also, the popular thermographics, the visual of big puddles of blues and greens and reds and yellows distorting the world into colored blobs of hot and cool are probably not what a troll or dwarf sees. Again, they see normally, just like everyone else, but they can register the heat patterns as well as the details of the normal colour spectrum.

Did they do away with the fact that natural thermographic and low-light vision is actually better at negating visual modifiers than cyber mods in fourth edition?
MaxMahem
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho)
Did they do away with the fact that natural thermographic and low-light vision is actually better at negating visual modifiers than cyber mods in fourth edition?

Yes they did. And good riddance I say, as if I didn't have enough different vision modifiers to try and recall.
Ranneko
Indeed, and this technology has been around for what? 30 years at this point, with generations of naturally thermovision capable metahumans who you could study to determine the way they see heat.

Cyberware vision mods should be at about par with natural by this stage.

However, overloading part of a spectrum can still blind you. If you pumped out enough IR, it could indeed compromise the vision of someone seeing with both normal and IR vision, think about how glare works.
kzt
With technology you could filter that out in many situations.
Narse
Yeah, its called the Flare Compensation mod. Filters out glare. 'nuff said.

EDIT: in the BBB it specifically states that Flare Comp. also negates the penalties that Characters w/ thermovision would have for thermographic glare.
Glyph
QUOTE (Carver)
I'm one of those weirdos that doesn't like taking any bio/cyber on my awakened characters, even if it does make them a bit weaker than they would otherwise be  *shrug*.

Another option is to be a mystic adept focused primarily on magery, with one or two points' worth of adept powers, kind of the opposite of the combat adept who takes one point of mage power for the counterspelling. Lots of sensory improvements you can take, as well as goodies such as sustenance or multi-tasking. The only downside is how gimped it makes you astrally. If you aren't that interested in interacting with the astral plane, or can stand to wait an initiation or two to buy astral perception, then it's a viable option.
Ravor
Not only won't Astral Sight defeat all vision modifiers, it isn't really all that hard for a corp to mess with the "vision modifiers" in the Astral as well...
Ted Stewart
Something has been bothering me about the entire astral perception to get around visibility penalties ideas, and I just realized what it is.

I astrally perceive. I am seeing the astral plane rather than the physical one. The problem is that I can only see astral targets, so unless my target is dual-natured or astral, I still can't see them. Page 182 is very clear on this, it only states that you can cast mana spells at astral targets while astralling perceiving.
Glyph
You're reading it a bit out of context. It's saying that you are able to cast mana spells at astral targets, and be attacked by them, but that doesn't preclude attacking people on the physical plane. Earlier on that page, it states:

QUOTE

A character using astral perception is considered dual natured, active on both the physical and astral planes simultaneously.


And on page 173, it is more explicit:

QUOTE

An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual natured) magician can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral space.
Magus
And do not forget anything on the physical plane that hampers visions also creates a visual shadow on the astral. Thermal Smoke and such can impede Astral perception. Just as heavy amounts of biomass can hide a persons aura too.
Ted Stewart
"An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual natured) magician can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral space."

That's completely and utterly insane. And I doubt I'll be doing it while playing my character for the same reason I doubt I'll ever use the fear power, it seems overpowered to me.
Whipstitch
Why? There's purely astral critters in this game that will happily eat your face and as many of us have been (fruitlessly) trying to point out, astral perception isn't zomgwtfpwnage. It applies penalties to anything you attempt to do purely in the meat world, it requires an action to turn on and off, and it doesn't make seeing physical objects any easier, if anything, it's likely to make it harder unless you're in a pitch black room. It's also possible to add enough background illumination and aura noise to destroy positive modifiers by adding shrubbery. I'm not talking about fancy ass awakened plants either. I'm saying enough potted plants and a spritz of FAB is often enough to render astral perception worse than regular vision and it only gets worse once someone tosses a smoke grenade. Yeah, you can still see both planes, but in this case what you don't know about literally can't hurt you and if it's dual natured (dualnatured != Astral Form) you'll know it's there and be able to interact with it even without astral sight because it is manifesting on the physical plane in some manner. Psychic powers are cool and all, but most of the time what you really need is a flashlight or some cybereyes.
Ted Stewart
Because my GM hasn't taken the game to that point. If I need to abuse critter powers because my GM abuses critter powers, then that's fine. However, if I start abusing them, he has to follow suit to keep the game balanced, and that would turn a very character-driven game into a rules-driven game. Given that my group is there for story and character interaction, making it more rules-intensive would make it less fun for everyone involved.
Whipstitch
Where'd abuse come into things? My only real point here is that by the letter and spirit of the rules Astral Perception is no better than normal perception for targeting dualnatured or physical beings in the majority of cases. Even by extremely simplified rules Astral Perception is mostly good for assensing auras and sticking your nose into a purely astral form's business. If your GM streamlines the rules in such a way that dualnatured Astral Perception is purely beneficial rather than a way to stub your toes mucking around distracted by auras as bright as a christmas tree or an opportunity to get attacked by Shedim then I'm afraid you're kind of playing a different game than the rest of us at that point.
Ryu
Note that you have to choose which plane your spells work on.

Note also that YOU get your physical stats and THE SPIRIT WORLD gets to use astral stats.

The security mage can attack you without LOS to the samurai, has likely more IP than before and is faster to boot. I´d say "be careful" instead of "thats overpowered".
Ted Stewart
QUOTE (Whipstitch)
Where'd abuse come into things?

Abuse might be the wrong word. It might be better to say that if I spend the time really learning the rules and then find loopholes or unbalanced aspects of them, I'm forcing the other players and the GM to do the same to keep up with me.

That's what some groups of gamers live for, but it's not something my group has any interest in whatsoever. Most of the other players love the world, and want nothing to do with the rules. Which I honestly can't blame them for, SR is staggeringly rules-heavy.

I also agree that astral perception isn't the golden grail it's been presented as, but that's a discussion I'd rather not have with my GM because it leads to making the game itself more complicated than he wants to deal with. In the same vein, I want to avoid the Fear power because it appears unbalanced to me, and if I get to use it, the GM will use it right back at me.
Whipstitch
I see what you're saying, but I guess it just seems kind of well, reactionary to me. Astral perception is really mostly harmless. Fear is a spell that makes people run away for a few turns in exchange for a complex action whereas an ArmTech MGL-12 can end lives in two simples. I'm just saying that a li'l perspective can be healthy. It's important to remember that Shadowrun is above all else a game where pulling the trigger is easier than cleaning up the mess you leave afterwards. An awful lot of things seem unfair until you realize your opponent can do it too.
Mr. Unpronounceable
Don't forget that using astral perception requires building up another skill: assensing.

Which can't be defaulted.

And isn't compatible with technological perception enhancers.


Frankly, the only thing astral spotting is good for is finding the occasional invisible guy. Generally, grenades work better though.
DTFarstar
If you think SR is rules heavy, we must be playing different systems.

Chris
Ted Stewart
QUOTE (DTFarstar)
If you think SR is rules heavy, we must be playing different systems.

Chris

I can't answer that without completely derailing this thread. If you'd like to discuss, please post a new one and I'll start doing comparisons.
Zhan Shi
My two nuyen worth. If the spellslinger depends on Logic, Cerebral Booster would be worthwile.

Since many spells have a range of LOS, Cybereyes with things like Low-Light Vision, Thermographic Vision and Vision Magnification.

I had a GM who, whenever I played a mage, would arm the opposition with tons of flashbang grenades and flashpacks, so Flare Compensation and Sound Dampening.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (JBlades)
Second question: What advantage are you getting from a sleep regulator? In the description it specifically says that the sleep regulator doesn't affect healing times. I assume that means stun damage, too, so what use is it to a mage that makes it worth the essence loss?

Binding, particularly in the case of many low-force spirits.
Ritual Spellcasting, particularly in the case of of multiple ritual spells
Enchanting
Orichalcum production
Commercial warding
Glayvin34
If you've got 80,000 nuyen you can get deltaware Skillwires 4 for only 0.4 essence. Unless you've got a bunch of bioware, then only 0.2 essence.

EDIT:
Deltaware is a friend, particularly when cyberware
This is a single example of a well-spent essence point:

Damage Compensators 3 (0.3ess)
delta-Platelet Factories (0.1ess)
delta-Cerebral Booster 3 (0.3ess)

delta-Skillwires 4 (0.4ess)
delta-Cybereyes 3 (0.2ess)

That's 0.7 essence in Bioware and 0.3 (0.6/2) essence in Cyberware, which is 1. The skillwires are 80,000 and the Cybereyes are 10,000 (not including enhancements, which could be another 100,000- they have to be deltaware, too), which is within reach at least somewhat. However, the PFs are 250,000 and the CB is 300,000.

But hey, you're a shadowrunner, get a deltadoc to owe you a favor. Or hire a hacker and use your magic to impersonate someone that already has an appointment. Of course, you'll have to do an extended impersonation, both to give a tissue sample to be grown into the deltaware, then again for the surgery. Sounds like a great run.
Tarantula
Or be a samurai and get delta move by wire. Why not?
Whipstitch
Hey, it never hurts to dream, right? I personally avoid plans that require having higher than alpha grade 'ware on my characters, but were I to make an exception, it'd be for skillwires. In that case, the 'ware really is the cheapest part of creating a very useful set of tools, and finding a beta set should be relatively easy. After at all, unlike with some other bits of highly invasive specialty 'ware, it's not very hard at all to imagine an extremely competitive market for Skillwires.
Tarantula
Lets see, 80k for skillwires, 110k for cybereyes, 250k for platelet factories, 300k for cerebral booster... 740k.

Why not get foci instead?
(Side note: I couldn't find a force limit on foci? They go as high as you can make/pay for them?)
Pick up a force 10 power focus for 250k.
Force 10 counterspelling for 50k.
Force 10 weapon focus for 100k.
Force 10 spellcasting for 150k.
And force 10 summoning for 150k.

And you still have 40k leftover for some cybereyes and non-delta skillwires.

And all of a sudden you're a hell of a better mage, moreso than I'd say your cerebral booster, platelet factories, or damage compensators make you (since you get +10 on casting spells from the power focus, and +10 on resistance from the spellcasting focus) Not to mention +10 on counterspelling, or summoning. And then you have a very nice weapon focus (of whatever you're good with) to boot.
kzt
They do have an availability, it's on the table with the price IIRC. It's 6/pt for power focus, etc.
Jaid
also, you would need 5 each of the spellcasting, counterspelling, and summoning foci. and iirc, you are limited to foci based on your attributes (magic and logic, to be specific, iirc).

that being said, by the time you've gotten 740k nuyen.gif i suppose you probably have a pretty good magic attribute, and logic attribute too for that matter.
Whipstitch
I'm not really sure what the point of this is. You can do a lot of cool things with 3 quarters of a million nuyen, even if it's just contributing to the team's drone army (seriously, everyone in the team can benefit from a drone helper, even if they do depend on the hacker/rigger for maintenance and matrix overwatch to keep things secure). That doesn't change the fact that there are still some pretty good pieces of 'ware that are relatively affordable even at high grades.
Tarantula
QUOTE (kzt)
They do have an availability, it's on the table with the price IIRC. It's 6/pt for power focus, etc.

Thanks, but I didn't ask about their availability, I asked if there was a limit to their force.

QUOTE (Jaid)
also, you would need 5 each of the spellcasting, counterspelling, and summoning foci. and iirc, you are limited to foci based on your attributes (magic and logic, to be specific, iirc).

Magic limits how many foci you can bind, logic limits how many you can have active at once, that means for this, they would both need to be 5.

Also, spellcasting (combat) and counterspelling (combat) are really the only ones you need. And take summoning for something most useful for you, probably spirits of man. So, no, you don't need 5 each, and on the others, you can always use your power focus instead.

QUOTE (Whipstitch)
I'm not really sure what the point of this is. You can do a lot of cool things with 3 quarters of a million nuyen, even if it's just contributing to the team's drone army (seriously, everyone in the team can benefit from a drone helper, even if they do depend on the hacker/rigger for maintenance and matrix overwatch to keep things secure). That doesn't change the fact that there are still some pretty good pieces of 'ware that are relatively affordable even at high grades.

Drones can relatively easily be overcome and turned against you. Skillwires aren't all that useful (especially if you can summon task spirits), damage compensators really aren't that great either. Platelet factories are nice, but don't stack with a pain editor, which is more useful usually for a mage. Really, the cybereyes are the most useful, and you don't need to deltagrade those.
Whipstitch
Platelet factories work fine with pain editors. You're mixing them up with Trauma Dampers. I've never been a fan of damage compensators, for anyone. I'm aware of the rules for drones and even when left vulnerable they're still often pretty good, especially since a hacker teammate or quality agent program can easily keep an eye out on them for you. All I'm saying is two things here: 1. that you're derailing this thread big time, and 2. it is rather facetious to say that there isn't pieces of 'ware out there that can be seriously considered as canidates for being taken at a high grade, many of which are surpsingly affordable. For example, a hermetic can easily combine his high logic with cerebral boosters and say, a beta (16k nuyen) or delta (40k nuyen) skillwire 2 system to take several low rating technical activesofts (which are cheap and all be purchased piecemeal as you save money) for logic-linked skills such as medicine, hardware and mechanic skills, which all happen to be notable for the fact that you cannot default to them. Task spirits are nice, but it's also nice not to have to rely on them or to be able to contribute to teamwork tests with your spirits as well as other characters.
Tarantula
And all my point that I was trying to make is this. When you start dealing in all delta ware and 3/4s of a million nuyen, theres all sorts of things you can blow your money on. Pieces of ware can be quite valuable to a mage at ANY grade, the benefits of affording high grade is that you can fit more.

Skillwires 2 can be nice for a hermetic mage, sure. So can cerebral boosters. In fact, rating 3 cerebral boosters (0.6ess) and rating 2 skillwires (0.4ess) fit just fine, with 0.2ess to spare for a mage. And thats with standard grade. I think grade of cyber should be irrelevant for the effectiveness of the cyber for a mage.
Whipstitch
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Dec 16 2007, 05:00 PM)
And all my point that I was trying to make is this.  When you start dealing in all delta ware and 3/4s of a million nuyen, theres all sorts of things you can blow your money on.  Pieces of ware can be quite valuable to a mage at ANY grade, the benefits of affording high grade is that you can fit more.

That's true, but you what you're doing comes across as raining abuse upon the 750,000¥ strawman. Some pieces of 'ware are prohibitively expensive in terms of essence but are so cheap in nuyen that they can easily be rendered palatable via 'ware grades. This bears mentioning, whether you think so or not, and you don't need to spend upwards of a hundred thousand nuyen to take advantage of higher 'ware grades.
Tarantula
Sure, but going with delta ware draws it to the extreme. You can start with alpha, or acquire betaware during game considerably easier than delta. Deltaware is taking the example to the extreme which isn't necessary.
Ryu
Glavin suggested a viable way to spend one point of magic, IF one has the necessary connections and money.

I consider alpha the usual grade of ware for most characters - our runs pay well.

Compared to that, double price gets you beta and five times the price gets you delta. The first ist 12.5% less essence, the later 37,5% less. So delta saves more essence per ¥. Academic for our group due to availability, but still worth mentioning here.

---
Foci ratings do not have a cap AFAIK. I strongly suggest to limit available ratings of bought foci, much more so than deltaware.
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