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Ted Stewart
I'm making a shaman, and I vaguely recall folks talking about using a single point of essence to great effect on their magical characters. I think cybereyes were specifically mentioned.

So... what do you good folks use the single point of Essence for? What is worth the loss in Magic?
Glayvin34
I got Cerebral Booster 3 (alphaware), Damage Compensators 3 and Platelet Factories. That's .98 essence for very few problems with Drain.
Ryu
Anything that enhances stats. Muscle Bioware, Cerebral Boosters, Reaction Enhancers, Synaptic Boosters... use it to shore up weaknesses. Cerebral Boosters are a no-brainer for all astral fighters, strong spirits throw many dice.
Stahlseele
everything that con not be accomplished without paying with essence . . smartlink/eye-mods? noo . . contacts . . for example . .
everything that you can get by paying with karma or using magic is better done that way
Tarantula
Trauma dampener, pain editor.

Stahlseele, the problem with having thermo on your contacts instead of cybereyes, is that when you have to resort to thermal only (such as in full darkness) you can't cast on them as it wasn't paid for with essence and isn't an optical only targetting.
Stahlseele
so if you use thermal in contacts, you'd have to switch them off and fire an elemental spell into the general direction?
Glayvin34
QUOTE (Ryu)
Anything that enhances stats. Muscle Bioware, Cerebral Boosters, Reaction Enhancers, Synaptic Boosters... use it to shore up weaknesses. Cerebral Boosters are a no-brainer for all astral fighters, strong spirits throw many dice.

Given that most BP and Karma are spent on Magic and Spells, enhancing stats is key. My Mage has the aforemention Cerebral Boosters, 2 Quickened Increase Attribute Spells and a sustaining focus for one more Increase Attribute Spell. There are also some gene enhancements in Augmentation that give you bonus dice for not much essence, but don't increase the Attribute directly.
DTFarstar
Cybereyes, because you can't use the mods from your contacts and stuff to negate penalties for casting spells. Only things paid for with essence. So I generally spend .5 or .4 for Rating 4 Cybereyes with everything in them so I don't get negative dice pool mods for smoke and all that crap. Also a big fan of platelet factories and if logic based cerebral boosters. If non-logic based I generally get some agility or reaction enhancers to spend as close to the full point as I can.

Chris
Tarantula
I suppose that could work, with a -6 for target hidden, though, a strict reading of the book is that you can't target them because you can't see them, even with an indirect combat spell.
DTFarstar
QUOTE (Stahlseele)
so if you use thermal in contacts, you'd have to switch them off and fire an elemental spell into the general direction?

That's basically right, and you know what is incredibly dangerous? A open area and a mage with vision magnification in their cybereyes. Say hello to getting nailed with a spell from a mile or three away.
Glayvin34
QUOTE (Tarantula)
I suppose that could work, with a -6 for target hidden, though, a strict reading of the book is that you can't target them because you can't see them, even with an indirect combat spell.

My GM is WAY too lenient with that kind of thing. He allows spells to be targeted within LOS, regardless of illumination. In our game, if you have thermo on your contacts, you can use them to target just because you know where the target is.

Thinking about it, that's kind of lame, because by the same logic you could use thermo to see through walls and cast through walls, which is a big no-no. But my character is the mage so I doubt I'll call him on it. wink.gif

So does this mean that a blind mage cannot cast spells on the material plane?
DTFarstar
I had a blind mage and I had to be able to make a successful assensing test and identify them as a mundane before being able to fire a Ball Lightning at them.

Chris

EDIT: then again my GM has as yet to use visual modifiers for guns OR for spells so... it really wouldn't matter in his game. His girlfriend is a mage as well and she gets petulant when you tell her to take a negative or that she can't do something so he just leaves it all alone.
Stahlseele
exactly that
with astral vision you can see everything, but you're casting on astral plane . .
Tarantula
Uhh, no Stahlseele. Yes, you could spend a simple action to astrally perceive, and then cast on the guy who is in full darkness that way. You are not casting on the astral plane. The spell is still on the physical plane, coming from your physical body, and hitting his physical body. You're just using the astral plane to see where to direct it.

Only mana spells cast from an astral mage (perceiving or projecting) at an astral being (spirit, perceiving/projecting mage) are actually cast ON the astral plane.

Well, other mana spells like mana barrier are too, but this was the easiest example.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Glayvin34)
My GM is WAY too lenient with that kind of thing. He allows spells to be targeted within LOS, regardless of illumination. In our game, if you have thermo on your contacts, you can use them to target just because you know where the target is.

Thinking about it, that's kind of lame, because by the same logic you could use thermo to see through walls and cast through walls, which is a big no-no. But my character is the mage so I doubt I'll call him on it. wink.gif

So does this mean that a blind mage cannot cast spells on the material plane?

You can, you just have to burn some simple actions to perceive. Then cast away. Then stop perceiving to avoid having spirits thwomp you from astral. Thermo doesn't let you see through walls, ever.

Though, by that logic, if the mage got a radar sensor implanted, then your GM would let him target anything around him within 100m?
FriendoftheDork
Where are the rules concerning mages can only cast through cybereyes and not non-optical vision enhancers? I seem to have heard it before but I couldn't find the rules so I haven't enforced it. So far I've been letting our mage cast spells in darkness by using low-light vision contacts with no penalties.
Glayvin34
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Thermo doesn't let you see through walls, ever.

I'd say it depends on the wall and depends on the thermal source. As an extreme example, you could see a person in behind one of those rice-paper japanese walls when you couldn't in the normal spectrum.

Interestingly enough, my mage is a dwarf, so the infrared spectrum is in his normal spectrum. I guess he can cast past (infrared light transparent) barriers?

QUOTE (Tarantula)
Though, by that logic, if the mage got a radar sensor implanted, then your GM would let him target anything around him within 100m?

Just visual enhancements, not other sensors.
Glayvin34
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork)
Where are the rules concerning mages can only cast through cybereyes and not non-optical vision enhancers?

From Page 173 of the Main Book:
Physical cyber- or bio-enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot targets, but any technological visual aids that substitute themselves for the character’s own visual senses—cameras, electronic binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc.—cannot be used.

So visual enhancements installed in cameras mounted on eyeglasses or contacts do not allow targeting- they give the mage information on the distance of the object, not any astral connection for spell casting (which metahumans seem to only achieve via visual perception, direct contact or ritual).
Irian
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Dec 5 2007, 03:05 PM)
Where are the rules concerning mages can only cast through cybereyes and not non-optical vision enhancers?

Core Book, p. 173: "Choosing the targets".

Edit: Too late.
Feshy
QUOTE (DTFarstar)
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Dec 5 2007, 01:29 PM)
so if you use thermal in contacts, you'd have to switch them off and fire an elemental spell into the general direction?

That's basically right, and you know what is incredibly dangerous? A open area and a mage with vision magnification in their cybereyes. Say hello to getting nailed with a spell from a mile or three away.

It's my belief in general that if you are far enough from your target to need vision magnification, you have time to pull out some trusty optical binoculars.

Also, what mods have what effects depends on your race. Here's a handy chart (because I do love me my tables!)

CODE

_Natural Vision_
            Low Light  Thermo
Full Darkness    --       +3*
Partial Light    +2       +0
Light Fog        +1       +2
Heavy Fog        +2       +2
Thermal Smoke    +2       +0**

_Natural Low-Light (Orcs and Elves)_
               Thermo
Full Darkness    +3*
Light Fog        +1
Thermal Smoke    +0**

_Natural Thermo (Dwarves and Trolls)_
            Low-Light
Partial Light    +2
Thermal Smoke    +4***

*   Targeting impossible in full darkness without thermo.
**  Thermo must be disabled to get this modifier.
*** Because natural thermo can't be disabled, targeting is
   impossible in these conditions without this mod


This shows the effective "bonus" to spell casting with the different mods (it's really canceling negatives, but it's easier to think of it as a bonus over the normal, negativly modified state.)

Now, there are other benefits to getting full function cybereyes besides the ones listed here -- flare compensation being a big one. There is also the convenience of not having to carry around smart goggles (or contacts), vision enhancement goggles (or contacts), and a pair of optical binoculars. There are also style concerns, and a few other nifty eye mods out there, so it's up to you to weigh that against the added essence and nuyen costs over just the standalone eye mods.

There are, of course, ways around being shut down by total darkness. Flashlights are fine, just don't hold it. As a mage, you're enough of a bullseye as is. Or, just summon a fire elemental. If it turns out there's trouble hiding in the darkness, well, you've just killed two birds with one stone. One big, fiery, angry stone.

The one thing you seem to be stuck with though is if you are a dwarf or a troll, your spell casting can be shut down completely by thermal smoke if you don't invest in low-light cybereyes.

Well, I guess there is another option to both the natural thermo and complete darkness effects: Just astrally perceive.

Just hope that sheds some light (no pun intended) on the basic vision mods and cybereyes for mages dilemma.

*************************************

One exciting piece of 'ware that hasn't been mentioned so far: the Daredrenaline gene mod from Augmentation. +1 to willpower tests -- it seems like it would give you an extra drain die for any tradition!

Another from the "somewhat random" category is Skin Pockets. They're great for hiding your smaller focii in, if you are worried about loosing them.

Lastly, I'm starting to think that shadowrunners should just be born with natural platelet factories. It seems that they are a good addition to pretty much every character.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Glayvin34)
Just visual enhancements, not other sensors.

By RAW, radar is a visual enhancement. It even says "overlays (or replaces) the user's visual senses."
Tarantula
Thermal smoke is still light or heavy smoke as regular. Just because you turn off the thermo portion of your eyes doesn't mean you can suddenly see through the smoke too. You just don't get the negatives of thermal smoke, it just acts as regular smoke for your other vision.
Feshy
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Thermal smoke is still light or heavy smoke as regular. Just because you turn off the thermo portion of your eyes doesn't mean you can suddenly see through the smoke too. You just don't get the negatives of thermal smoke, it just acts as regular smoke for your other vision.

Heavy smoke doesn't completely block vision (give a -6 modifier.) Thermo smoke *does* give that modifier to thermo users, while normal vision only gets a -4 to heavy smoke (even if it is thermo smoke.) So thermal smoke completely blinds the thermographically inclined, unless they can shut it off and rely on normal or low-light vision. (this is a good reason to avoid the bioware "Troll's Eyes" in augmentation, by the way.)
Tarantula
Yes, but my point was this. Thermal smoke to someone with thermal vision is -6. Turning off the thermal vision doesn't make it -0, it makes it -4 for regular heavy smoke, or -2 for regular light smoke. Your table makes it look as though turning off the thermal vision completely eliminates all penalty from the smoke, that isn't so.
FriendoftheDork
Thanks guys, that helped alot.

And why can't a Troll adjust for smoke like humans can adjust for light and darkness? In my game I've let them use the best modifier. For instance, if there is light in a room and someone throws a thermal smoke, a Troll sees as good as a human (-4 for smoke), while if in a dark room a Troll sees as good as a human (-6 for total darkness and -6 for thermal smoke).

IF said Troll had low-light vision also, and the darkness wasn't complete than I'd not give him any more penalties than a human with similar gear would have.

I mean, you let humans chose the best between their natural darkvision (-6 in total darkness) and their vision enhancement (say thermo), so why not let Trolls and Dwarves do the same? You racists! wink.gif
Tarantula
Trolls can choose between thermo and low light vision enhancement just as much as a person. As far as choosing regular over thermo, they can't. Thermo is always on for them.
Glayvin34
QUOTE (Tarantula)
By RAW, radar is a visual enhancement. It even says "overlays (or replaces) the user's visual senses."

You can translate any sensor to a visual overlay, by "enhancements" I mean those things referred to as "enhancements" in the book, specifically:
Low-light
Thermographic
Ultrasound
Vision Enhancement
Vision Magnification

The Radar Sensor creates a 3D map of the environment that can be viewed via any visual means, and is headware, not a visual enhancement.
Stahlseele
uhm, wasn't ultra-sound made to be headware in SR4 too?
and ultra-sound is not a visual sensoric and magicing through it is not possible either, or am i wrong again?
Glayvin34
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Dec 5 2007, 04:15 PM)
uhm, wasn't ultra-sound made to be headware in SR4 too?
and ultra-sound is not a visual sensoric and magicing through it is not possible either, or am i wrong again?

EDITED: i was wrong

Ultrasound is headware and can't be put on cybereyes, so you can't use it to target.

EDITED AGAIN: My GM does not agree, and thinks that if you can "see" where the target is with Ultrasound, that's as good as illumination.
Stahlseele
it's in the RAW in so fern it says that you can not cast through non optical devices . . and ultra-sound has nothing to do with optics, but with sounds, it's basically the same as radar using another kind of waves to get the reflection to form an image from which then gets laid over your usual field of vision O.o

edit: ah shucks, the whole run-on-sentence for nothing ._. . . ah well ^^

edit2: ping pong *g*
with radar you don't see your target, you get an image of where the electronic waves used by the radar apparatus were reflected . . based on that view of ultra-sound "Vision" you'd be able to cast through radar . . meaning cast at everything within reach of radar *g*
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Trolls can choose between thermo and low light vision enhancement just as much as a person. As far as choosing regular over thermo, they can't. Thermo is always on for them.

Does the rules specifically say so somewhere or is it just your opinion?

If thermo is always on, that means they cannot see any details ever, only glowing shades of red and blue? Damn, so much for color vision.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork)
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Dec 5 2007, 09:54 PM)
Trolls can choose between thermo and low light vision enhancement just as much as a person.  As far as choosing regular over thermo, they can't.  Thermo is always on for them.

Does the rules specifically say so somewhere or is it just your opinion?

If thermo is always on, that means they cannot see any details ever, only glowing shades of red and blue? Damn, so much for color vision.

How does seeing a wider spectrum preclude color vision? You can see red, does that prevent you from seeing green and blue, even in the presence of red?
It's the exact same thing. When you see infrared (via expensive camera), you see it in false color. But a Troll doesn't need to see false color overlaying their "normal" (as defined by the human visual spectrum) vision, they simply have more colors to work with initially.
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Dec 5 2007, 04:45 PM)
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Dec 5 2007, 09:54 PM)
Trolls can choose between thermo and low light vision enhancement just as much as a person.  As far as choosing regular over thermo, they can't.  Thermo is always on for them.

Does the rules specifically say so somewhere or is it just your opinion?

If thermo is always on, that means they cannot see any details ever, only glowing shades of red and blue? Damn, so much for color vision.

How does seeing a wider spectrum preclude color vision? You can see red, does that prevent you from seeing green and blue, even in the presence of red?
It's the exact same thing. When you see infrared (via expensive camera), you see it in false color. But a Troll doesn't need to see false color overlaying their "normal" (as defined by the human visual spectrum) vision, they simply have more colors to work with initially.

But there is nothing seperating natural and artificial thermovision in SR, they recieve the same penalties. By your reckoning I would totally remove all penalties in darkness for natural thermo, as you retain the ability to see in a wide color spectrum.

Again, any hard rules to back this up or is this just the legacy of previous editions?
Stahlseele
there was a nice part about this in one of the novels of shadowrun, where a female troll runner reminisciences(sp?) about how she grew up . . how she had to learn that even though the ball was red she could still catch it without getting burned . . trolls DO see usual human vision AND thermo-Overlay . . it just takes them some time to learn when colour blue means cold, when colour red means hot and when it is just colour at all *g* a little bit later she actually uses this to her advantage, when a human with thermo-view in his eyes hides behind a thin wooden wall, forgetting that his body heat transmitts just nicely through thin wood, if he's pressed up against it and the body heat from the troll does not, as the troll is not in contact with the wood *g*
JBlades
Just read the section on page 173 that everyone is talking about, and there are some funny things there. I understand that you can't target someone over a camera feed, etc. but not being able to target them using contacts with low light seems... odd. You're looking at them with your eyes, they're right in front of you, an electric light source is providing illumination (in this case, an electric light source in the contacts you're wearing as opposed to flicking the light switch), but you can't target them? How is this significantly different than turning on a flashlight? That's essentially what the contacts are doing.

Now digital zoom I can kind of see, but even that is weird. I mean, you are seeing them, the digital zoom is just adding clarity.

I know the rules are what has been stated, I'm not arguing interpretation, just looking for some logical help.

Thanks!
Stahlseele
the DIGITAL Zoom basically uses a camera and a display to show you an computer-enhanced/zoomed image of what the cameras see . . OPTICAL is via lenses . .
and there's low-light which does something similar to that and there is light-systems . . can light systems be put into contacts? O.o because with light-system the enalogy of flicking the light-swtch would apply, but then you can cast with light-system just fine . .
FlashbackJon
QUOTE (DTFarstar @ Dec 5 2007, 02:45 PM)
His girlfriend is a mage as well and she gets petulant when you tell her to take a negative or that she can't do something so he just leaves it all alone.

I am both saddened and greatly entertained by this... rotfl.gif
Jaid
for whatever reason, normal vision provides an astral link. presumably this is somehow related to the fact that the light bounces off of the target and then enters your eyes.

when you use a camera, the light bounces of a target, enters a camera, and then a bunch of lights somewhere else create an image of that object which enters your eyes.

thus, you could nuke the crud out of the image you're perceiving (maybe even the projectors), but nuking the actual target doesn't work.
Mr. Unpronounceable
Don't overlook the sleep regulator if you're paranoid.
Glayvin34
QUOTE (Jaid @ Dec 5 2007, 05:16 PM)
for whatever reason, normal vision provides an astral link. presumably this is somehow related to the fact that the light bounces off of the target and then enters your eyes.

when you use a camera, the light bounces of a target, enters a camera, and then a bunch of lights somewhere else create an image of that object which enters your eyes.

thus, you could nuke the crud out of the image you're perceiving (maybe even the projectors), but nuking the actual target doesn't work.

That makes perfect sense, the consensus seems to be based on the light itself. If light that emanated from the target hits your eyes, you have an astral link and can cast, even if that light bounced off mirrors or went through a fiberoptic cable. Anything other than light directly from your target does not generate an astral link.

And I guess it has to be enough light for your brain to recognize the target. If there's not enough light to see the target, but some computer system outlines the appropriate blob in the dark, that's not good enough, or vision enhancements would allow spell casting. After all, there's always at least a few photons bouncing around.
Feshy
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Yes, but my point was this. Thermal smoke to someone with thermal vision is -6. Turning off the thermal vision doesn't make it -0, it makes it -4 for regular heavy smoke, or -2 for regular light smoke. Your table makes it look as though turning off the thermal vision completely eliminates all penalty from the smoke, that isn't so.

Read the table definition I provided. The "bonus" listed is the improvement over "normal" vision. Notice there isn't a single negative modifier on it. If you turn off thermo, you are using normal vision, and so there is no modifier other than that which affects normal vision.
cx2
It would make sense to me if trolls saw in both thermo and human visual spectrum at once, so got whichever mod was best. Perhaps though they might need to adjust for the light levels.

Can't remember if racial vision types still apply if you buy cybereyes, something makes me think at some stage in SR you had to buy low light/thermo again because it was your eyes which gave you the ability and they have been pretty much ripped out and replaced. On the other hand retinal mods would be another issue I guess.
Riley37
Can you cast Magic Missile directly at darkness?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsyT4uYZj0E&feature=related
Ravor
As has been stated, tricked out Cybereyes are a must, because remember that it really isn't that hard for a corp controlled enviroment to mess around with the Astral Vision modifiers either and I really wouldn't want to be the poor half-scan to became dual natured only to be gang raped by a bunch of security spirits or some of the nastier versions of FAB.


A single pimped out Cybereye set in your palm.


A Pain Editor is a must have for any Mage, for reasons that I don't think really need explaining.


Sleep Editor is something that I like, but its effects can be managed with drugs, still, having time to set up wards, research formula, and party with the rest of the team after a good Run makes it very good.


A Beta-grade skinlink-capable Datajack, don't trust Trodes and use it to protect your cyberware PAN from being Hacked... Besides, Knowsofts are da bomb. Love them.


Personally I like getting my extra IPs from a non-magical source, after all, Sustaining Foci are nice until you read the Focus Addiction Rules and even if your DM doesn't enforce them do you really want the attention that tripping every low level ward in town is going to bring?


Something cool, after all this is CyberPunk chummer, chop off a hand or get rollerblades installed in your feet, style is everything.
Karaden
Is there anything in the book that actually says something like "Trolls only see in thermoptic, not in normal vision." Because if it does, then it would -really- suck to be a troll.

If the only thing you see in is thermoptic, that means you would see no color, because thermoptic means that you see heat, not light, which means any color would be compleatly beyond you. It also means that computer screens would be beyond you, signs, printed paper, keypads, any intricate non-heat producing object really.

Since this huge list of disadvantages for a troll are never listed (and especially not for a dwarf who would be compleatly useless under the hood of an unused car if he only saw thermoptic) I'd have to assume that everyone can see in their 'natural' vision -or- ordinary everyday vision, whichever is more convinent for them.

It is consivable that they can or must use both at the same time however, but it is compleatly rediculus to think that they can -only- see in their race's vision type.
Fortune
QUOTE (Karaden @ Dec 6 2007, 08:22 PM)
Is there anything in the book that actually says something like "Trolls only see in thermoptic, not in normal vision."

If that were the case, it would be explicitly stated. As it is not, trolls can see equally well with both normal and thermographic vision.
ElFenrir
Well, as said, Cybereyes tricked out are great; and Alphaware saves a little essence for other stuff.

Other ware depends on the mage. Combat mage? A couple points of Muscle Toner and Muscle Augmentation(+2 to Agility and Strength). Cost? .8 essence. With alphaware eyes(.4/2), it's 1 full essence point, and worth it. (if i was playing a combat mage, stat-wise i'd probably be sporting a 3-4 Agility and 3 Str, bringing it to a pretty sweet 5/5 or 6/5.) A handful of building points for a couple of combat skills and you have a very scary character.

For a more bookish mage, Cerebral Booster, Sleep Regulator, things of that nature. Pain Editors and Trauma Dampers are nice too. (I'd probably keep the cybereyes as well).

Cyber and mages can go well together, as long as it's not taken too far.
Stahlseele
QUOTE
Cyber and mages can go well together, as long as it's not taken too far.

Burnout Cyberzombie with the Magical Skills < = scary thought
HappyDaze
I generally just have my magician target astrally if vision mods are a problem. It's not really any more dangerous - pretty much anything that can ruin your day on the astral can screw you on the physical too, and you do keep a watcher on astral lookout at all times, right?
JBlades
Thanks for the ideas on the sight stuff. smile.gif

Second question: What advantage are you getting from a sleep regulator? In the description it specifically says that the sleep regulator doesn't affect healing times. I assume that means stun damage, too, so what use is it to a mage that makes it worth the essence loss?
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