Full Version: FASA video game rights back where they belong
I'm not saying anything about S&T's intent [and don't know anything about it, either], but what I'm saying is: the former FASA properties have not been "saved from Microsoft" or anything like that. From everything I can tell, it's just a license deal; more or less the same sort of situation as Catalyst licensing Shadowrun from WizKids, just a different set of rights.
Clearly we need someone to break into MS's offices and steal the rights.
Gee... That sounds a bit... Shadowy.
And I daresay on an expedition like that, there would be a lot of running (like you stole something), woulden't there be?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......
And I daresay on an expedition like that, there would be a lot of running (like you stole something), woulden't there be?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......
It does mean, though, that it's far more likely that something will be done with those rights rather than sit and gather dust in Microsoft's Basement of Unprofitable Ideas. It also means that FASA Studio won't have anything to do with whatever comes next with those rights and that someone with a personal connection to Shadowrun's roots will.
Everything I've been able to find out about Smith & Tinker suggests they are geared towards "transmedia." In the past, transmedia has been used by properties like The Matrix, Lost and Heroes as a way of promoting a fictional setting across many forms of media simultaneously, such as movies, television, cell phone short episodes, comics, online animations, anime, video games etc. Looks like Smith & Tinker is interested in that sort of thing, as well as adding toys to that mix. Transmedia Shadowrun sounds really cool, though I have no idea how that would bump up against the publishing rights.
Everything I've been able to find out about Smith & Tinker suggests they are geared towards "transmedia." In the past, transmedia has been used by properties like The Matrix, Lost and Heroes as a way of promoting a fictional setting across many forms of media simultaneously, such as movies, television, cell phone short episodes, comics, online animations, anime, video games etc. Looks like Smith & Tinker is interested in that sort of thing, as well as adding toys to that mix. Transmedia Shadowrun sounds really cool, though I have no idea how that would bump up against the publishing rights.
Just what the world needs--more ARGs.
| QUOTE (Demonseed Elite) |
| ... It also means that FASA Studio won't have anything to do with whatever comes next with those rights and that someone with a personal connection to Shadowrun's roots will. ... |
Just thought that I'd point out that FASA studio (i.e. the video game design studio) Has been disbanded by MS. I was under the impression that most of its employees were subsumed into other devisions of MS's software development section.
| QUOTE (Narse) | ||
Just thought that I'd point out that FASA studio (i.e. the video game design studio) Has been disbanded by MS. I was under the impression that most of its employees were subsumed into other devisions of MS's software development section. |
Wonderful. We can expect more quality product from the 'soft, then.
Um, you didn't happen to think that this team was particularly bad or something, did you?
(Not to disparage the 'Soft's developers. I'm sure they've got bad ones around, but from what I hear most of the suck is introduced at the management level.)
~J
(Not to disparage the 'Soft's developers. I'm sure they've got bad ones around, but from what I hear most of the suck is introduced at the management level.)
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Um, you didn't happen to think that this team was particularly bad or something, did you? (Not to disparage the 'Soft's developers. I'm sure they've got bad ones around, but from what I hear most of the suck is introduced at the management level.) ~J |
Lots of people on these boards was saying that Shadowrun the video game was a mediocre project and that the lack of a single player mode was just a cheap effort to slash man-hours and not need any creativity in terms of level design.
I've been loitering around the MS forums for a while, kicking out windows when no one is looking...
Yeah, about a third of the team was let go. Unfortunately, that seems to include the only guy on the team who actually played Shadowrun before the project was started and liked it (he actually has a Shadowrun Duels figure modeled after him!) Fortunately the guy is working again for... darn it, forgot the company. Someone that bought a bunch of pieces of Interplay and is based out of Illinois.)
Yeah, about a third of the team was let go. Unfortunately, that seems to include the only guy on the team who actually played Shadowrun before the project was started and liked it (he actually has a Shadowrun Duels figure modeled after him!) Fortunately the guy is working again for... darn it, forgot the company. Someone that bought a bunch of pieces of Interplay and is based out of Illinois.)
Berthesda?
Same guys making the new fallout?
allways been saying, that a shadowrun mod for fallout 2 or tactics would have been RAD indeed *g*
Same guys making the new fallout?
allways been saying, that a shadowrun mod for fallout 2 or tactics would have been RAD indeed *g*
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) |
| Lots of people on these boards was saying that Shadowrun the video game was a mediocre project and that the lack of a single player mode was just a cheap effort to slash man-hours and not need any creativity in terms of level design. |
Well, there's a few parts to this. One thing that is necessary is to recognize that there is a difference between a bad product, a bad team, and a collection of less-than-capable individuals. While these things are relatively interchangeable in one direction (less-than-capable people usually combine into a bad team, and a bad team usually produces a bad product), it isn't the case in the other—less so in the pairing of the first two parts, though a good team can produce bad products, but very much so in the pairing of the second two—taking individually competent people and combining them will not always, and I might go so far as to say will frequently not, produce a good team.
Thus, the question's whether the individuals were bad, or if the rot started at the team level. If the latter, most of the individual members should be able to be placed into a team in such a way that it is a good team, which means that (especially for an organization this large, with this many teams) if they were hirable in the first place it's probably a good first choice to try to put them somewhere else, in a good team, rather than toss them out on the kerb.
So now I get down to the question of why I think it may have been a team-level issue.
The first is Mitch Gitelman, who was a manager and thus in a position to dictate much of the tone, focus, and design of the game. I'm not going to bother providing a detailed attack on him; if you don't already know, a quick search to see some of his public statements during development and shortly post-release should suffice.
The second is the nature of the things you mention (I'm going to assume they're all true right now—I don't know what their reason for not including a single-player mode, and don't really care enough to determine the truth). They're all pretty explainable by bad direction at the top—slashing man-hours isn't a decision that most of the team makes, for example, that's a managerial decision. Level design is a little less direct, but I'm guessing that the game has bad level design because they didn't spend much money on level design, which means they didn't get many level designer and didn't have them spend a lot of time on this game. This would also be a managerial decision, as the level designers don't choose whether they get assigned to the project and in what numbers, or how long they're given to fiddle around and see how things work. It's possible that they got a proper team together and they were simply composed of bad designers, but I'm not sure I give much credence to that.
Finally, there's the fact that from what I know, management is a fundamental weak point throughout Microsoft. All of my information is from third parties, so I'll defer to them for the defense of this (the first example that comes to mind is Mini-Microsoft). If true, this would increase the degree to which it is reasonable to assume managerial issues.
So yeah, what you say doesn't indicate the members of the team are necessarily not the kind of people you'd want to have working on your game.
~J
| QUOTE (Stahlseele) |
| Berthesda? Same guys making the new fallout? allways been saying, that a shadowrun mod for fallout 2 or tactics would have been RAD indeed *g* |
No, Bethesda is based out of Bethesda (MD). Lemme check... Volition.
Like I said, a good guy, actually plays Shadowrun and was the only developer who came to the forums to answer questions, explain things and so on, and never once told a lie (even when he was put in a rough spot). Apparently he was fired for 'failing to spread sufficient evil'.
I think conceptually it would be incredibly easy to make a good shadowrun MMO.
Races - Troll, Ork, Elf, Human, Dwarf
Classes - Rigger, Decker, Adept, Shaman, Mage, Street Samurai, Face
You go on "missions" to get "karma" and then spend "karma" on new abilities ala WoWs skill tree.
The game would be similar to DDO in that you have to go on missions in order to gain karma (ie go on quests to get xp) running around killing random npc gives you no karma or loot.
Sorta reminds me of a multiplayer version of the old sega game, only updated for modern gaming.
Races - Troll, Ork, Elf, Human, Dwarf
Classes - Rigger, Decker, Adept, Shaman, Mage, Street Samurai, Face
You go on "missions" to get "karma" and then spend "karma" on new abilities ala WoWs skill tree.
The game would be similar to DDO in that you have to go on missions in order to gain karma (ie go on quests to get xp) running around killing random npc gives you no karma or loot.
Sorta reminds me of a multiplayer version of the old sega game, only updated for modern gaming.
that's only good if you want to play WoW with cyberware. i already play WoW; playing it with cyberware doesn't really appeal much.
I agree with mfb, but there are also other obstacles in the way of something like that. In WoW it's easy to have big social and quest hubs like the capital cities, with a scattering of appropriate adventurous NPCs. But in Shadowrun, you're talking about large city settings and shadowrunners make up a small segment of the population. Populating a quest/social hub with just fixers and Johnsons would feel wrong, conceptually. But filling it with all manner of random Sixth World people is a lot of overhead for little use, since most normal Sixth World people don't interact with the world of shadowrunners much.
there's also the question of what type of content to use. do you really want to raid Deus every week, hoping that he'll drop the +5 Ares Predator you've been after?
I know it's what I do. We've been farming bugs in Chicago for the last year looking for a rare drop.
~J
~J
I could see an instance-based FPS/RPG hybrid working out quite well. Sort of a mix between Rainbow Six (Raven Shield, not that silly Vegas) and Deus Ex. You put a team together, pick a mission (that is algorythmically generated to be somewhat random at least) and run it. Maybe it's clearing a ghoul nest, maybe it's a simple package run, maybe it's breaking into Ares and fending off fire teams and hell hounds and drones, oh my!
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| there's also the question of what type of content to use. do you really want to raid Deus every week, hoping that he'll drop the +5 Ares Predator you've been after? |
You assuming you need a +5 predator and that enemies drop loot. I'm saying you go on a run, you get cash and karma thats it. Karma is spent on abilities (no levels). Gear you buy off the fixer or other people. Also you could kill the "raid the same place" by not having repeatable quests. There of course are only so many combinations but you could randomly generate a whole lot of options. It would work out just fine but as a game company you need to accept the more true to shadowrun you are the less likely you are to get the number of players WoW has but you can still make plenty off a loyal following.
| QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Dec 19 2007, 02:22 PM) |
| I agree with mfb, but there are also other obstacles in the way of something like that. In WoW it's easy to have big social and quest hubs like the capital cities, with a scattering of appropriate adventurous NPCs. But in Shadowrun, you're talking about large city settings and shadowrunners make up a small segment of the population. Populating a quest/social hub with just fixers and Johnsons would feel wrong, conceptually. But filling it with all manner of random Sixth World people is a lot of overhead for little use, since most normal Sixth World people don't interact with the world of shadowrunners much. |
This assumes that all of the PCs are Shadowrunners. Good MMORPGs have non-combat jobs for people who want to roleplay doing completely mundane everyday things.
Ultima Online's extensive crafting system allowed PCs to roleplay seamstresses and chairwrights. A Sixth World MMO could, for example, include an extensive spreadsheet-based accounting engine, for players who want to roleplay accountants.
Johnsons have to meet their clients somewhere, which provides a good excuse for the important parts of the cityscape (bars, night clubs, and adult book stores with viewing booths with holes in them).
Actual meetings can be arranged by telecom.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Good MMORPGs have non-combat jobs for people who want to roleplay doing completely mundane everyday things. Ultima Online's extensive crafting system allowed PCs to roleplay seamstresses and chairwrights. |
I just never understood this. Is there really that many people that actually pay money to do this?
Not really different from paying money to sit at monster spawns and farm them for XP and some gold. Hell, playing a crafter, you probably end up with more diverse social interactions than "Heal Me!".
i'm still saying the guys of Shadowrun Online(now 6th world games) had it pretty much spot on with most of their design/concept ideas . .
| QUOTE (tete) |
| You assuming you need a +5 predator and that enemies drop loot. I'm saying you go on a run, you get cash and karma thats it. Karma is spent on abilities (no levels). Gear you buy off the fixer or other people. Also you could kill the "raid the same place" by not having repeatable quests. There of course are only so many combinations but you could randomly generate a whole lot of options. It would work out just fine but as a game company you need to accept the more true to shadowrun you are the less likely you are to get the number of players WoW has but you can still make plenty off a loyal following. |
i don't see this working. that is to say, i've seen similar game design choices made in other MMOs--specifically Matrix Online--and they didn't work. if you just hand out universal resources as rewards for playing, then everybody will be able to acquire the best gear. similarly, randomizing missions will just become stale and boring, because any player will have exhausted all of the randomization options within a month of play--and some players will exhaust them within hours. non-randomized missions, while also repetitive, at least give one a strong sense of progression.
MMOs, as they are currently played, are about repeating the same content over and over again in order to achieve goals (drops, levels, reputation, etcetera). in other words, grinding. the best MMOs give players many grinding options--many types of loot for their class, many factions to grind reputation with, many resource drains which the player must compensate for with further grinding. i don't think it's possible to create a set of SR grinding options that are both fun to do and even remotely true to the setting. but however it's done, i'm personally not interested in grinding SR at all.
Why have "best gear" at all? How about just having different gear?
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Dec 19 2007, 03:57 PM) |
| I know it's what I do. We've been farming bugs in Chicago for the last year looking for a rare drop. ~J |
Well, the queen did drop that helicopter. You're still pissed off that I rolled on a Rigger item with my Street Sam, aren't you?
| QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Dec 19 2007, 11:41 PM) |
| Why have "best gear" at all? How about just having different gear? |
i'm gonna go ahead and say it's impossible to design a game where every piece of gear, or even most pieces of gear, are equal. the mechanics are going to favor some pieces of gear over the rest. the only way around that is to make gear irrelevant.
besides, if all gear is basically equal, then there's no need to grind for gear (not to mention you're now short a large set of rewards for gameplay). in an MMO, that's a bad thing. doing away with the gear grind means doing away with at least a quarter of the possible grinding options available--you're left with the xp grind, the cash grind, and the faction reputation grind.
unless you're talking about designing a completely new massively multiplayer online experience (which isn't really what's being discussed), MMOs are--and should be--based around grinding. the reason for this is that new content is hard to produce, and it's impossible to produce at high rates without either spending a lot of money or accepting a lot of low-quality product. the current style of MMO can be played as long as the player can remain conscious at his keyboard, and there are a lot of players sitting at a lot of keyboards for a lot of hours in any successful MMO. to satisfy them, you need to give them repeatable content--and it's got to be repeatably enjoyable content. that means you'll need to explore every avenue available for grinding options and reward options, and that means you're pretty much stuck with +5 predators.
That may not be the only option, but I'll discuss that more if I do end up doing my thesis on that.
~J
~J
It is not necessary to have every piece of equipment be perfectly balanced so much as it is to be sure that different sorts of equipment are more useful in different situations. Certainly, no one would use a rocket launcher in CQC no matter how powerful it may be.
MMOs should be about immersive cooperative roleplaying (and, to some extent, worldbuilding). Games based around grinding really suck.
Ideally, a MMO should mirror a tabletop game as much as is possible, just on a much larger scale. The pressure to create new content should be sufficiently alleviated by player roleplaying ad politicing, which should have the ability to significantly mold the game story and landscape.
Some games have this, most of them are text-only. Unfortunately, graphics seem to get i the way of actual roleplaying.
MMOs should be about immersive cooperative roleplaying (and, to some extent, worldbuilding). Games based around grinding really suck.
Ideally, a MMO should mirror a tabletop game as much as is possible, just on a much larger scale. The pressure to create new content should be sufficiently alleviated by player roleplaying ad politicing, which should have the ability to significantly mold the game story and landscape.
Some games have this, most of them are text-only. Unfortunately, graphics seem to get i the way of actual roleplaying.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| MMOs should be about immersive cooperative roleplaying (and, to some extent, worldbuilding). Games based around grinding really suck. |
hundreds and hundreds of thousands of gamers disagree. hell, i disagree. the grinding has to be interesting, and it has to be challenging, and it has to be as nonrepetitive as possible. but it's a lot of fun, if done right.
the reason why large-scale immersive cooperative roleplaying rarely works is that there's no good way to regulate roleplaying on a large scale. people have different roleplaying styles, and they don't all mesh well. some people want to play Neuromancer with elves, and some people want to play Lord of the Rings with smartlinks. and some people--the majority of people, based on the way most MMOs are played--want to game the system and be the best <insert party role here> they can be. if the reward system is automated, it's easy--even expected--for everyone will do their best to exploit it.
most people simply don't care about the roleplaying opportunities available in MMOs. if you wanted to create an MMO in which roleplaying is the motive force for the majority of the players, you'd have to throw out everything you know about MMOs as they are currently designed and played, and start from a completely different mindset. you probably couldn't even advertise your game as an MMO, because if you did, you'd attract MMO players, and MMO players are the death of roleplaying. the reward system would have to be almost, if not completely, ungameable; huge portions of the NPC populace would need live, or partially live, control; and you'd have to pay hundreds of guys to constantly develop new content. the end result would not be anything most people would recognize as an MMO.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Games based around grinding really suck. |
Yeah. I've heard nothing but bad stuff about World of Warcraft, from the few people that have ever played it.
Yeah, I personally hate the idea of grinding, but I still play WoW like an addict. I don't do the solo grinding thing very often, but even the guild activities I do are certainly grinding in a different form. Farming the high-end instances repeatedly is still a grind.
Right now, making grinding fun and appealing is the secret to a successful MMO. There are possibly other options, but no one has been successful with them yet. And personally, I don't see Shadowrun as a setting that is well served by the grinding MMO idea. I'd much rather see it as a squad-based FPS RPG, where you build your squad and can issue commands while on runs. The setting provides tons of material for a good story built on a series of runs and then you add a quality multiplayer experience for replayability.
Right now, making grinding fun and appealing is the secret to a successful MMO. There are possibly other options, but no one has been successful with them yet. And personally, I don't see Shadowrun as a setting that is well served by the grinding MMO idea. I'd much rather see it as a squad-based FPS RPG, where you build your squad and can issue commands while on runs. The setting provides tons of material for a good story built on a series of runs and then you add a quality multiplayer experience for replayability.
| QUOTE (Demonseed Elite) |
| Yeah, I personally hate the idea of grinding, but I still play WoW like an addict. I don't do the solo grinding thing very often, but even the guild activities I do are certainly grinding in a different form. Farming the high-end instances repeatedly is still a grind. Right now, making grinding fun and appealing is the secret to a successful MMO. There are possibly other options, but no one has been successful with them yet. And personally, I don't see Shadowrun as a setting that is well served by the grinding MMO idea. I'd much rather see it as a squad-based FPS RPG, where you build your squad and can issue commands while on runs. The setting provides tons of material for a good story built on a series of runs and then you add a quality multiplayer experience for replayability. |
I think the Counterstrike style FPS that the most recent Shadowrun game used is the way to go. They just need to make the environments more true to the setting, and actually use the IP. Perhaps use a persistent character, too, with limits on development based on attribute caps and essence. The whole "hacker" thing would be hard to utilize in a team based FPS, but I suppose one player could control drones and/or security systems.
I don't think the IP would handle the MMO model very well. And I definitely don't want to see the dice mechanics codified... the SR combat system is not that good, IMO. I play SR because I love the setting.
Our Shadowrun got derailed for a couple hours discussing how we thought the Shadowrun MMO should be set up. I thought I'd post some of what I remember of our discussions on here.
-Guild Wars (WoW and City of Heros also use but not as the main) set up, most runs are done through instances.
-This said, we don't want a World, we want Seattle or some other Major City, with effort going into what we have not how big it is. They can do expansion Hong Kong later if they want.
-Many Instances would be able to Randomly Generate (Maps, Goons, etc.) for the basic Extraction, Wet Work, basic scenario runs. This results in more instances for less work.
-City of Heros style contacts, ie Johnsons as well.
-Triple Layer world, Physical, Astral, and Matrix, characters would be able to perform and view the different levels. Most Matrix could be done without entering the actual Matrix Layer (ie AR), but for hacking enter Matrix World.
-At times, have no Jobs available except for a single "On the Run", that would basically be Lone Star is after you or such and you will have to perform a series of tasks to loose the heat. Probably some type of "Karma Cap" similar to Final Fantasy XI's.
-Parts of the on the run might require you to get rid of particular items that have been compromised.
-Getting high end gear would be an instance in itself, possibly stealing from a company. With the costs being paying the contacts, blackmarket for the information.
-Death during a mission effectively would remove you from the mission (Luckily SR has quick stabilization/First Aid rules already in place to get you back on your feet, just remove the 1 try per wound and we're good), ie you receive no further Karma for the mission other than completion if your team still completes and reward for the same reason
-Safehouses for teams! Customizable again in City of Hero's style.
-Personal Pads, to store drones/vehicles things that aren't easily put into your pocket, or at least you shouldn't be seen regularly on the street with. Upgraded with Lifestyle investments! (You're monthly RL payments get you Squatter Lifestyle
)
-Drones basically summoner style pets, unless you jumped into them.
-Yes we want vehicles! I don't know how to pull this off to make people happy, and keep realities in check. Some vehicles would be go anywhere (skates, skateboards, hoverboards...), Larger vehicles would need to go to your pad, or possibly have instances be within the space of a city block, so you could park in the instance. Or if the instance involves a chase you need a car for it.
-Factions (Gangers, Runners, Lone Star, Doc Wagon) completely different style of instance, perhaps these would be sets of instances available so you could act as one or any of these based on reputations. Start out as ganger, and develop into different role depending on which instances you do.
End result is a FPS, with the MMO flavor of reputation, equipment, and Karma. You develop a character instead of being thrown into a 30 minute arena with guns. We're on the side of we want the Shadowrun world, not an MMO as exists now.
-Guild Wars (WoW and City of Heros also use but not as the main) set up, most runs are done through instances.
-This said, we don't want a World, we want Seattle or some other Major City, with effort going into what we have not how big it is. They can do expansion Hong Kong later if they want.
-Many Instances would be able to Randomly Generate (Maps, Goons, etc.) for the basic Extraction, Wet Work, basic scenario runs. This results in more instances for less work.
-City of Heros style contacts, ie Johnsons as well.
-Triple Layer world, Physical, Astral, and Matrix, characters would be able to perform and view the different levels. Most Matrix could be done without entering the actual Matrix Layer (ie AR), but for hacking enter Matrix World.
-At times, have no Jobs available except for a single "On the Run", that would basically be Lone Star is after you or such and you will have to perform a series of tasks to loose the heat. Probably some type of "Karma Cap" similar to Final Fantasy XI's.
-Parts of the on the run might require you to get rid of particular items that have been compromised.
-Getting high end gear would be an instance in itself, possibly stealing from a company. With the costs being paying the contacts, blackmarket for the information.
-Death during a mission effectively would remove you from the mission (Luckily SR has quick stabilization/First Aid rules already in place to get you back on your feet, just remove the 1 try per wound and we're good), ie you receive no further Karma for the mission other than completion if your team still completes and reward for the same reason
-Safehouses for teams! Customizable again in City of Hero's style.
-Personal Pads, to store drones/vehicles things that aren't easily put into your pocket, or at least you shouldn't be seen regularly on the street with. Upgraded with Lifestyle investments! (You're monthly RL payments get you Squatter Lifestyle
)-Drones basically summoner style pets, unless you jumped into them.
-Yes we want vehicles! I don't know how to pull this off to make people happy, and keep realities in check. Some vehicles would be go anywhere (skates, skateboards, hoverboards...), Larger vehicles would need to go to your pad, or possibly have instances be within the space of a city block, so you could park in the instance. Or if the instance involves a chase you need a car for it.
-Factions (Gangers, Runners, Lone Star, Doc Wagon) completely different style of instance, perhaps these would be sets of instances available so you could act as one or any of these based on reputations. Start out as ganger, and develop into different role depending on which instances you do.
End result is a FPS, with the MMO flavor of reputation, equipment, and Karma. You develop a character instead of being thrown into a 30 minute arena with guns. We're on the side of we want the Shadowrun world, not an MMO as exists now.
Man... The idea of role-playing a Johnson just makes me drool... Imagine that, the corporation gives you a bankroll and a job, you decide how much you tell the team and how much you with-hold. I'd with-hold everything just for the fun of watching under-prepared groups get nuked.
And security-system designers! Can you imagine that! Maybe you get money for every Shadowrunner you kill, which you can then use to buy more machine-guns and neuro-stun.
And security-system designers! Can you imagine that! Maybe you get money for every Shadowrunner you kill, which you can then use to buy more machine-guns and neuro-stun.
Heh Still more, on the concept of Drops.
-Very limited carrying capacity, larger pad, and safehouse storages.
-Diablo II style carrying capacities, larger items result in less capacity
-Add a weight restriction as well.
-Can loot practically all goons for ammo/weapons.
-Most Nuyen is gained from the instance runs payout. Most gear is bought, or crafted. Similar to Final Fantasy XI. Black Market Auction Houses.
-Equipment should be very fluid, we're runners not investors. Very rarely should we become attached to an item, we need to be able to ditch it when the heat is on. This is a very FPS aspect, if you're out of ammo, loot and hope they have the type you need, or ditch your gun and steal the security guards.
-Mages will be on the Nuyen train as well if they need to get materials for spells (not standard SR, but needed here for balance)
-Cybered, have cost of cyber repair added on to your medical costs.
-Hackers... Fry the commlinks, or even just the software, like Cybered they need to get their comms repaired at times.
-Make Lifestyle Increases look very tempting, spiced with costs of repairs, to keep Nuyen from piling up. Pay your contacts once in a while.
-Very limited carrying capacity, larger pad, and safehouse storages.
-Diablo II style carrying capacities, larger items result in less capacity
-Add a weight restriction as well.
-Can loot practically all goons for ammo/weapons.
-Most Nuyen is gained from the instance runs payout. Most gear is bought, or crafted. Similar to Final Fantasy XI. Black Market Auction Houses.
-Equipment should be very fluid, we're runners not investors. Very rarely should we become attached to an item, we need to be able to ditch it when the heat is on. This is a very FPS aspect, if you're out of ammo, loot and hope they have the type you need, or ditch your gun and steal the security guards.
-Mages will be on the Nuyen train as well if they need to get materials for spells (not standard SR, but needed here for balance)
-Cybered, have cost of cyber repair added on to your medical costs.
-Hackers... Fry the commlinks, or even just the software, like Cybered they need to get their comms repaired at times.
-Make Lifestyle Increases look very tempting, spiced with costs of repairs, to keep Nuyen from piling up. Pay your contacts once in a while.
I've been toying for a while with the idea of an asymmetric game—one "team" plays a real-time strategy game, allocating funds, hiring troops, designing chokepoints, all that, while the other "team" plays either a real-time tactical or first-person shooter-like game which starts at some semi-random time during the first team's game.
~J
~J
MMOs dont have to be WoW!
Eve Online is very popular...
The Matrix Online is still online...
You don't need 100,000 + people to keep an MMO going.
I had a friend who played SWG back when it first came out, he didn't grind at all, He put a band togeather and went from cantina to cantina playing music. I personally love crafting. In EQ2 I love decorating my apartment, I would rather spend my time doing that than dungeon diving. One of the big problems I have with WoW is you dont get a place of your own, and I find combat boring. So there is a segnificant number of people who will shell out $15 a month to not grind. Hell look at second life, its way more popular than WoW.
Eve Online is very popular...
The Matrix Online is still online...
You don't need 100,000 + people to keep an MMO going.
I had a friend who played SWG back when it first came out, he didn't grind at all, He put a band togeather and went from cantina to cantina playing music. I personally love crafting. In EQ2 I love decorating my apartment, I would rather spend my time doing that than dungeon diving. One of the big problems I have with WoW is you dont get a place of your own, and I find combat boring. So there is a segnificant number of people who will shell out $15 a month to not grind. Hell look at second life, its way more popular than WoW.
MMOs don't have to be WoW, but the SR MMO that people are discussing--and that you yourself outlined on the previous page--is basically WoW with cyberware. i've said before that it might be possible to create an SR 'MMO' by completely ignoring the standard MMO paradigm.
and Matrix Online is not a model that should be copied by anybody. i could write pages on what a failure and a travesty MxO is.
and Matrix Online is not a model that should be copied by anybody. i could write pages on what a failure and a travesty MxO is.
Back to the main matter.
Doesn't anyone find it at all ironic that Microsoft, as a reward for treating FASA's intelectual property with bad faith, now gets to sell a temporary licence to Shadowrun to the original creator of the concept?
Doesn't anyone find it at all ironic that Microsoft, as a reward for treating FASA's intelectual property with bad faith, now gets to sell a temporary licence to Shadowrun to the original creator of the concept?
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| is basically WoW with cyberware. |
No, its not, read it again.
I never suggested levels or the ability to run around killing things for XP.
Yes, it has quests. Shadowrun the RPG IS QUESTS... so thats not really from WoW but rather the nature of the game itself. I also didn't suggest bigger badder gear drops from bosses. In fact I suggested no drops and that you buy all your gear. I did suggest using a skill tree ala diablo or WoW but thats because improving your skill from 5 to 6 without getting a new technique would be a bit dull. After all what does athletics of 6 mean? shouldnt a character with a score of 6 be able to do backflips and such that a character with a score of 1 can not? I did suggest classes but much like quests, classes have always been a part of the rpg (archtypes), though not as limiting as D&D because you could create your own.
it's still the same style of game as WoW, or EQ, or DAoC, MxO, or FFXI: you control a single player, run around and fight mobs, get quests from NPCs, and so on. your suggestions are just variations on that theme. i don't think that style of game can both be fun and remain true to the SR setting.
Single Player, finds some buddies, gets a mission from a Johnson, goes does the run. Sounds a lot like the PnP Shadowrun to me. I'm not saying it has to be played that way but with DNA/DOA being the first adventure (other than food fight) I could totally see it fitting. I'm really curious now what Shadowrun is to you.
Keep in mind that DNA/DOA was not really in the normal style of other Shadowrun adventures, being more af a 'dungeon crawl', which is kind of fitting, seeing that it was penned by Dave Arneson of D&D fame.
yes, on the surface, it sounds like the PnP version. the resemblance is only skin deep, though, because people play WoW-style MMOs differently from the way they play tabletop RPGs. as i've said, people grind WoW-style MMOs. that means that everyone is going to do all the 'cool' content over and over again. i don't want to form a group every week to kill Lofwyr.
That should not be an option
oh HELL YES it should . . old golden snout gave me enough trouble to justify that <.< . .
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| yes, on the surface, it sounds like the PnP version. the resemblance is only skin deep, though, because people play WoW-style MMOs differently from the way they play tabletop RPGs. as i've said, people grind WoW-style MMOs. that means that everyone is going to do all the 'cool' content over and over again. i don't want to form a group every week to kill Lofwyr. |
Then make the game world dynamic. From what I hear, Eve does pretty well at that. It'll take a hell of a lot more coding, but it could be done. If done well, it'd blow most MMOs right out of the water.
...Though, it'd also mean people would come in specifically aiming to kill all the Big Names just to fuck with the system. So...
I've played quite a bit of Eve. It is very different, but a Shadowrun MMO that used a system like Eve used would not be terribly familiar as Shadowrun.
Eve is purely an economy-based game. The whole political system of Eve is player-generated content encouraged by resource gathering. You could make a "Shadowrun" MMO built around black market economies in the Sprawl, but it'd be more like a "Gangs versus Syndicates" game than anyone's typical idea of Shadowrun.
Eve is purely an economy-based game. The whole political system of Eve is player-generated content encouraged by resource gathering. You could make a "Shadowrun" MMO built around black market economies in the Sprawl, but it'd be more like a "Gangs versus Syndicates" game than anyone's typical idea of Shadowrun.
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