Full Version: Recruitment: Vengeance of the Heavens
Oh, I was going by
| QUOTE |
| so my max magic goes down 4 |
to mean that you'd used up 4 essence.
I'm just really glad to know that I'm not going blind/insane when I can't find any ware on your character, especially since someone else was talking about your essence loss for ware and there was no evidence of it. Had me really worried.
I'm just really glad to know that I'm not going blind/insane when I can't find any ware on your character, especially since someone else was talking about your essence loss for ware and there was no evidence of it. Had me really worried.
I guess I'll go ahead and follow your lead and post what I have for evaluation. Give me a few... hours to type it all up. (They joys and pains of working out my character on paper)
| QUOTE (Karaden) | ||
Oh, I was going by
to mean that you'd used up 4 essence. I'm just really glad to know that I'm not going blind/insane when I can't find any ware on your character, especially since someone else was talking about your essence loss for ware and there was no evidence of it. Had me really worried. |
Nah, the hypothesis that best fits the facts is 'I've forgotten something something'
Redjack: whats the value you are indicating in brackets?
[ Spoiler ]
More to come. Need some fake SINs and and ammo, but right now I'm going to bed, see you all in the morning.
Ok sorry for the delay in posting, have some friends in from Canada so not much time to check the boards but they are only here till Monday so should be looking in more regularly.
So I have been getting PMs so no worry and I will try to reply to them this coming Monday afternoon after my house guests leave. The day of the deadline I will be posting a list of completed characters that have been submitted in the morning. Please keep this in mind - I think it's great people are posting characters here so everyone can collaborate but I still require a copy sent to me please.
Allergies/Incompetences: If it's on the sheet it will come up so be careful what you pick, you have been warned. No free points for cheesy flaws that aren't which is why I encourage ones that fit the character concept/back story.
It does help to show the reduced stat such as Magic or Resonance so please make a note somewhere of what loss you incurred and the increase so I can check over sheets. Thanks!
As always ask questions and I'll do my best to answer them.
So I have been getting PMs so no worry and I will try to reply to them this coming Monday afternoon after my house guests leave. The day of the deadline I will be posting a list of completed characters that have been submitted in the morning. Please keep this in mind - I think it's great people are posting characters here so everyone can collaborate but I still require a copy sent to me please.
Allergies/Incompetences: If it's on the sheet it will come up so be careful what you pick, you have been warned. No free points for cheesy flaws that aren't which is why I encourage ones that fit the character concept/back story.
It does help to show the reduced stat such as Magic or Resonance so please make a note somewhere of what loss you incurred and the increase so I can check over sheets. Thanks!
As always ask questions and I'll do my best to answer them.
[ Spoiler ]
| QUOTE (Toras) |
| Magic 8 (6) [40pt + 63 karma] Combat Senses 7 [3.5pp] |
As a note, a power's rating cannot be higher than your magic rating.
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| Redjack: whats the value you are indicating in brackets? |
2 -> 1 -> 2 -> 1 -> 7
Base Magic (Augmented Magic)
2 -> 2(1) -> 3(2) -> 3(1) -> 9(7)
I was under the impression that the base attribute is what you pay karma to raise. Same would be true, say for an augmented strength. In this case the essence loss has caused a negative augmentation.
Redjack is quite right. If you have magic 4, but buy an essence worth of ware, then your magic changes to 4(3). It'll still cost you the same amount to raise it, regardless of the ware. So it costs the same to go from 4 to 5 as it does to go from 4(3) to 5(4).
As Redjack said, this is in the exact same vein as someone who has muscle toner or some such, giving them 4(5) agi. It costs the same to go from 4 to 5 as it costs to go from 4(5) to 5(6).
As Redjack said, this is in the exact same vein as someone who has muscle toner or some such, giving them 4(5) agi. It costs the same to go from 4 to 5 as it costs to go from 4(5) to 5(6).
| QUOTE (Redjack) | ||
As a note, a power's rating cannot be higher than your magic rating. |
Thanks. Fixed that ( I had originally had 1 more point of magic.)
| QUOTE (Karaden) |
| Redjack is quite right. If you have magic 4, but buy an essence worth of ware, then your magic changes to 4(3). It'll still cost you the same amount to raise it, regardless of the ware. So it costs the same to go from 4 to 5 as it does to go from 4(3) to 5(4). As Redjack said, this is in the exact same vein as someone who has muscle toner or some such, giving them 4(5) agi. It costs the same to go from 4 to 5 as it costs to go from 4(5) to 5(6). |
Damn, in the case of magic loss from essence I thought you actually lost a point of magic. I'll fix that.
Understandable. I'll double check on that, but I'm fairly certain that is how it works, see if I can't get an exact page/pages about that.
Yeah, I just thought it worked like a racial change for an attribute, because say I'm advancing a dwarfs strength of 6 (so 3 + 3 racial) I have to pay the karma for an attribute of 7 right?
Well, I can't find anything that says it spesificly. Best I can get is
| QUOTE (p62) |
| Characters with Magic or Resonance attributes are subject to penalties if they have an Essence lower than 6. For each point or partial point of Essence below 6, the character loses 1 full point from her Magic or Resonance and the maximum for that attribute is reduced by 1. |
Now, the thing is that it can be taken either way. It can mean that a) it works like racial stats, in that you actually have that new number, as if that was all you had ever bought, or b) it works like augmented atributes, with your augmented magic being capped at 6+initiation-essence loss.
The more I look at it though, the more I think it is option a. Another thing that supports this is latent awakening from street magic, in which you can have an essence below 6, and still awaken as a mage. The only real reason to think it would be option b is that it doesn't say anywhere 'this point can be bought back as normal' which the book always says when making mention of a skill or attribute loss. That and option a opens it up for abuse exactly as your doing, by constantly buying magic 2 and reducing your essence untill you've goten all the ware you want. I mean you could reduce yourself to 1 essence for almost no cost this way, while it would be exceptionally difficult/more costly if you go with option b.
I suppose you can ask on the main forum or just ask for a GM call (and he will likely ask on the board :P)
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| Yeah, I just thought it worked like a racial change for an attribute, because say I'm advancing a dwarfs strength of 6 (so 3 + 3 racial) I have to pay the karma for an attribute of 7 right? |
Yes, because racial modifiers are not considered "augmented".
| QUOTE (Redjack) | ||
Yes, because racial modifiers are not considered "augmented". |
Yes, but as I said in my post, nowhere in the book is the magic loss from essence stated as being augmented magic. It is staed as a lost point.
Edit: I agree with you guys re: racial attributes, and brought an increase in body on the basis that my nat body of 1, modified to 2 from being a dwarf had to be paid for at 3.
Onto the real discussion.
Onto the real discussion.
| QUOTE (Karaden @ Jan 6 2008, 06:49 PM) | ||
Well, I can't find anything that says it spesificly. Best I can get is
I mean you could reduce yourself to 1 essence for almost no cost this way, while it would be exceptionally difficult/more costly if you go with option b. |
tI snipped up your post a bit there.
It wouldn't work in a standard game because it would be annoying running around as a mage with magic one for ages while you find enough cash and karma to install your cyberware and tediously advance magic, and only works in shadowrun at all because the game has the 'cost' of advancing an attribute is out of lockstep between character generation and advancement. If you use frank's BP only method for generation and advancement it works great (for example) because I have to pay 10 BP for the 4th and 40th point of magic so the 'trick' is avoided.
I might wait until I get back to my rulebooks and then ask in the main forum as a point of interest, because I honestly thought it worked like racial attributes, though I might just be thinking that because it helps me
But either way, the GMs call is obviously more important here, because whatever I reckon, the GM's call is in fact the one that matters.
@Budda72: Any chance of ruling on how much karma it costs to advance your maagic in this situation
I have a magic of 4 and an essence of 6. i have synaptic boosters 2 installed which costs one point of essence. Does this essence lost
A) Count as an 'augmentation' to my magic score, so my totals are magic 4 (3) with an essence of 5
Parallels drawn to cyberware
This makes the karma cost of advancing my magic one point equal to 15.
B) Count as a flat change to my magic score, so my magic score is 3 with an essence of 5
This makes the karma cost of advancing my magic one point equal to 12.
Parallels drawn to racial modifications.
From a balance perspective I've always preferred the modified interpretation, although I don't think it's really supported by the RAW. It's less metagamey. I tend to favor SECKSY and Frank's BP=Karma system at this point in time, simply because it makes gambling that you can survive long enough to get the 6 karma needed to boost up your strength to 2 before you get shot because you couldn't struggly your way up a chain link fence a less attractive option since you're not "saving" any points in the long term.
Since I've made it pretty clear my dislike of the cheese factor I 'm going with the virtual stat. So I am going with the point cost being the score before the essence loss. I agree with the analogy of above about a character being played at a tabletop game would never even make the team, the other players would toss you out the door for bringing a Magic 1 mage to the table in the first place. With these being artificially advanced characters I think that option A is the way I am going to rule it.
As for a different system of character generation I would rather stick with the original from the base system and just use a little common sense to address issues like this as they pop up. Hope that works for everyone.
As for a different system of character generation I would rather stick with the original from the base system and just use a little common sense to address issues like this as they pop up. Hope that works for everyone.
No problem. The original bp system works fine anyway, it only occasionally runs into these kind of issues when dealing with straight jumps to mass amounts of power like what we have here; like you said, I think people were just getting a bit crazy because they knew they could skip the "awkward phase" you go through when only having a one or two in an attribute.
The funny thing is it works fine if you write 'latent awakening' on your character sheet and become an adept instead of a mage.
In other news my character now needs a significant re-write and probably re-templating because this increases my cost of advancing magic by 53 karma (urgh) and thats not sustainable as currently written.
In other news my character now needs a significant re-write and probably re-templating because this increases my cost of advancing magic by 53 karma (urgh) and thats not sustainable as currently written.
True, but taking latent awakening is basically putting aside 5 bps and hoping that your GM will eventually let you Awaken once in play. It's balanced by the fact that you don't know when or if it will ever pay off and even if it does happen you likely won't have the karma on hand to start developing the skills right away, which is why latents usually end up as adepts if they're given any choice in the matter. The GM is the one who picks whatever it is you actually end up as.
Yeah, it seems completely unplayable in a normal game because you wouldn't have skills either, but in a 300 karma game, reasonable that you awoke at some point in the preceeding 300 karma
Still, debate for another time.
Still, debate for another time.
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| Yeah, it seems completely unplayable in a normal game because you wouldn't have skills either, but in a 300 karma game, reasonable that you awoke at some point in the preceeding 300 karma Still, debate for another time. |
Heh, I had to read that twice, as the first time through my thought was "How the heck are you supposed to earn karma if your asleep the whole time?" or something along those lines.
Bhudda, is there still room?
I've a mind for a combat character, former swat type based on the concepts of the "furute soldier" program of the DoD.
I've a mind for a combat character, former swat type based on the concepts of the "furute soldier" program of the DoD.
He hasn't made any decisions on the final group yet, so I think your still welcome to submit a character, so long as you can get it in to him before the 14th.
He mentions in the opening post that he'll select characters from those submitted on the 14th, and is looking for 6-7 players. you'll be the 10th person to have expressed interest, and based on watching other threads with the usual ratio of expressions to actual characters (though I suspect it to be higher for this thread given the GM's track record of success), it is probably a safe bet that you'll be a contender.
Edit: I'm going to have to drop the capability in my own right to be a hacker, but I still have a rating 6 agent so that Haxor the interwebs ability is still there.
Edit: I'm going to have to drop the capability in my own right to be a hacker, but I still have a rating 6 agent so that Haxor the interwebs ability is still there.
Shameless double post with a question. Do you run shape metal like this
| QUOTE |
In a world where most things aren't metal what can you do with this spell? Seriously, most vehicles don't have metal, most buildings aren't giant iron constructs, sure you can bend some bars if you're in an ancient prison but most jails cells would be constructed out of some sort of plastic. Whats metal? guns? Got anything else? Wires are coated in plastic so you cannot see the metal to target it. Same with a car engine, gotta have the hood open, the metal rebar is covered by concrete, most metal I beams will be inside floors. Most metal is hidden so it's not that useful. |
Or like this
| QUOTE |
| You guys are forgetting that in Shadowrun Plastisteel is referred to as an "alloy", not a "polymer" (M&M, p. 113). Similarly, Ferrocrete isn't stone. The most common building materials are in fact metal in the Shadowrun future - makes things have that nice 80's sci-fi feel evoking imagery from movies like Aliens. The distopic arcologies have metal walls and ducts that emit steam at irregular intervals for no discernable reason. As to paint, well there is absolutely no way whatsoever that I would rule that a thin coat of paint would prevent you from using Shape Metal on a metal wall. Similarly, I would absolutely allow someone to use Shape Earth on a patch of ground that was covered by a lawn. In Shadowrun Magic you don't need to literally have line of sight to the substance you are targetting, you need to have line of sight to the object you are targetting and the object has to be essentially the substance you can effect. For example, wearing full body combat armor does not make people immune to Mana Bolt despite the fact that the mage doesn't literally have line of sight to any part of your body as it is all blocked by non-living polymers. And paint of course. So yes, Shape Metal is totally awesome. Shape Plastic is also very good, but usually requires you to be a total badass (since you need net hits over the OR to actually do anything). |
Or somewhere in between?
Posters names deleted to protect the guilty.
LOL!
I would go with the second example of how I would rule Shape Metal works.
I would go with the second example of how I would rule Shape Metal works.
I suppose that also applies to the highly similar heat metal spell? (not that it affects me much as neither of my prospected characters have a lick of magic in them.)
I've been working on my character some more, and I was wondering if it would be possable to trade in karma for nuyen at all? I'm asking because I'm having a bit of trouble when I get to the weapons and ammo section of my equipment list. Heavy weapons, ammo for the weapon, and explosives cost alot, and I'm looking at either having to drop good wares or only having a very minimal ammount of ammo (or slaking in something like Fake SINs or some other area).
Oh, and since you expressed concern about this, I'll tell you that not one piece of my ware is even alphaware, much less delta.
Oh, and since you expressed concern about this, I'll tell you that not one piece of my ware is even alphaware, much less delta.
Nikoli - Of course you're welcome, you were a great addition to my old thread.
Karaden - Ok my 1st question is whether or not you bought all the starting nuyen you could at character generation since you have extra karma you could use it to buy the skills given up for starting cash. Assuming you did take max cash at char gen I'm not doing the karma/nuyen exchange house rule yet since I have a loose grasp on the economics of the new system but I am wondering if any other players are running into money problems. I picked 200k but if it's becoming a limiting factor I would like to know so has anyone else had a problem with cash?
I am going to rule Heat Metal the same way or it makes both spells pretty useless to a runner.
Karaden - Ok my 1st question is whether or not you bought all the starting nuyen you could at character generation since you have extra karma you could use it to buy the skills given up for starting cash. Assuming you did take max cash at char gen I'm not doing the karma/nuyen exchange house rule yet since I have a loose grasp on the economics of the new system but I am wondering if any other players are running into money problems. I picked 200k but if it's becoming a limiting factor I would like to know so has anyone else had a problem with cash?
I am going to rule Heat Metal the same way or it makes both spells pretty useless to a runner.
Course I got max staring money 
It isn't a huge problem, I'm only like 15k over right now, and I can maybe chip away on that by using weaker armor or reducing various ammo or dropping one of my guns, or perhaps downgrading my cyber a bit. I just figured I'd ask about the exchange before I starting erasing stuff and having to recalculate everything.
It isn't a huge problem, I'm only like 15k over right now, and I can maybe chip away on that by using weaker armor or reducing various ammo or dropping one of my guns, or perhaps downgrading my cyber a bit. I just figured I'd ask about the exchange before I starting erasing stuff and having to recalculate everything.
I ran out of cash pretty hard with 200k starting money, and I'm currently looking at about 20k over though that is after cutting 'fat' out of the sheet.
Not saying you should go for that, but if you do 1 karma =2.5k nuyen probably isn't a bad starting point, though that makes buying cash with karma highly efficient.
Not saying you should go for that, but if you do 1 karma =2.5k nuyen probably isn't a bad starting point, though that makes buying cash with karma highly efficient.
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| I ran out of cash pretty hard with 200k starting money, and I'm currently looking at about 20k over though that is after cutting 'fat' out of the sheet. Not saying you should go for that, but if you do 1 karma =2.5k nuyen probably isn't a bad starting point, though that makes buying cash with karma highly efficient. |
Kind of glad that I'm not the only person that is hitting the problem (I know I'm bad about buying alot of stuff, but still). But what do you mean it is highly effective to buy cash with karma? Basing it off comparing the amount of karma to raise a stat and the amount of karma cash required to get ware to simulate that rise is -always- going to come up with the cash option being more effective. Same thing happens with BPs. Why spend 10 BP to raise agi by 1 when I can spend 1.2 BP worth of nuyen to get the same thing? Yet people do it, go figure.
Cyberware is a bad comparison measure because you are spending essence for which it is hard to draw comparisons, there being no other good you can exchange for more essence. Unfortunately, thinking about it my statement is also wrong 
, but lets have a quick look at my thought processes
A better look is find the karma BP equivalences in other things, then use the BP:Karma ratio to decide what the equivalence for cash should be. Unfortunately this system also exposes whats wrong with the BP/Karma system, but it is an interesting study so lets have a look.
For example buying specialisations is 2 = 2 which would say karma should be worth 5k - the same as a BP, but if you look at buying spells, 3 BP = 5 Karma which indicates that each karma should be worth 3k nuyen. So you should always buy specs with karma. Always! But as we'll see, spells have a highly BP weighted BP:Karma ratio, which drives the value of karma down so you should buy spells with BP.
Positive qualities say the ratio should be 1 BP = 5k Nuyen = 2 Karma (therefore 1 karma =2.5k) The worst ratio of BP to karma in the game, interestingly.
If you think of it as buying attributes up to 6 costs 65 BP and 60 Karma, karma should be worth 5.4k per point
Whereas if you look at skills from 1 -> 6 thats 24:44 or 1 karma worth 2.7k a point.
Which means my statement is wrong and it is more efficient to buy money with BP at the points under discussion. I apologise for my insanity. It is an intresting study of what you should by with karma (Attributes, Specialisations) and what you should buy with BP (Skills, positive qualities, Spells).
So if you wanted to fix a fair and discouraging price for Karma -> Nuyen, you're probably looking near the 3k mark, which makes it more efficient than buying skills, or positive qualities, the same as spells, but less efficient than buying attributes or specialisations.
, but lets have a quick look at my thought processesA better look is find the karma BP equivalences in other things, then use the BP:Karma ratio to decide what the equivalence for cash should be. Unfortunately this system also exposes whats wrong with the BP/Karma system, but it is an interesting study so lets have a look.
For example buying specialisations is 2 = 2 which would say karma should be worth 5k - the same as a BP, but if you look at buying spells, 3 BP = 5 Karma which indicates that each karma should be worth 3k nuyen. So you should always buy specs with karma. Always! But as we'll see, spells have a highly BP weighted BP:Karma ratio, which drives the value of karma down so you should buy spells with BP.
Positive qualities say the ratio should be 1 BP = 5k Nuyen = 2 Karma (therefore 1 karma =2.5k) The worst ratio of BP to karma in the game, interestingly.
If you think of it as buying attributes up to 6 costs 65 BP and 60 Karma, karma should be worth 5.4k per point
Whereas if you look at skills from 1 -> 6 thats 24:44 or 1 karma worth 2.7k a point.
Which means my statement is wrong and it is more efficient to buy money with BP at the points under discussion. I apologise for my insanity. It is an intresting study of what you should by with karma (Attributes, Specialisations) and what you should buy with BP (Skills, positive qualities, Spells).
So if you wanted to fix a fair and discouraging price for Karma -> Nuyen, you're probably looking near the 3k mark, which makes it more efficient than buying skills, or positive qualities, the same as spells, but less efficient than buying attributes or specialisations.
I'm not sure I've ever -not- hit the starting nuyen cap with mundane characters, to be honest.
Yeah, money is exchanged directly for power at the cost of essence which has no value for a mundane.
I'm running out badly for an awakened character, but I'm also attempting to include hacking and rigging both of which are very expensive.
I'm running out badly for an awakened character, but I'm also attempting to include hacking and rigging both of which are very expensive.
Ok based on the feedback thus far I have no problem adding another 100k to the money so the new total would be 300k. Enjoy! 
Eurocar here we come!!
LOL!
Just a heads up if people have been sending me questions/comments via my gmail account sorry for missing them. I was looking here for comments/questions and was only popping in every few days to check for character submissions. I will be checking the account everyday now until the recruitment is over and the IC thread begins. I have sent replies to the emails that had questions so keep an eye out. Thanks!
Just a heads up if people have been sending me questions/comments via my gmail account sorry for missing them. I was looking here for comments/questions and was only popping in every few days to check for character submissions. I will be checking the account everyday now until the recruitment is over and the IC thread begins. I have sent replies to the emails that had questions so keep an eye out. Thanks!
Sweet, 100k, I think I have about 80k of that already earmarked
Oh, and as for that little comparison, you really want to compare to a rating of 5 for stats, because of that random 15 point jump for the last point in BP. It is in fact by far most effective to get to 5 via BP (40 points) and the 6th point via Karma (only 18 as opposed to 25)
Oh, and as for that little comparison, you really want to compare to a rating of 5 for stats, because of that random 15 point jump for the last point in BP. It is in fact by far most effective to get to 5 via BP (40 points) and the 6th point via Karma (only 18 as opposed to 25)
Yeah, the logic does break a bit, but the ratio is still screaming 'stats with karma!!!11!!1' except logic and intuition because those stats give knowledge skills.
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| Yeah, the logic does break a bit, but the ratio is still screaming 'stats with karma!!!11!!1' except logic and intuition because those stats give knowledge skills. |
Well, as my char sheet shows, I bought to 5 with BP on my character, then took the last point with karma. Buying up to 5 points is actually cheaper with BP (40 compared to 42)
Yeah, but karma is worth less than a BP.
[Derail]
[Derail]
[ Spoiler ]
[/derail]
@Buddha72
Here is the write up I have started on the group I want to use for my adept. I had PM'ed it last week but it seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle so I've posted it as a spoiler here.
This is my first shot at this and I'm open to your input and requests for adjustments.
Thanks
JD
Here is the write up I have started on the group I want to use for my adept. I had PM'ed it last week but it seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle so I've posted it as a spoiler here.
This is my first shot at this and I'm open to your input and requests for adjustments.
Thanks
JD
[ Spoiler ]
Looks like a cool group JDragon.
| QUOTE (Karaden) |
| Looks like a cool group JDragon. |
Thanks.
The other one looks really cool, just don't think it would work well for the character I have planed.
Just gotta see if I can get it finished in time.
Also, that bump on starting cash was across the board or only if you maxed BTP on cash?
Thanks
JD
The group looks fine, no problems with it at all.
The extra cash was across the board so everyone enjoy.
The extra cash was across the board so everyone enjoy.
| QUOTE (Buddha72) |
| The group looks fine, no problems with it at all. The extra cash was across the board so everyone enjoy. :) |
Cool, thanks for the confim.
Looks like its time to get my character done.
JD
Ok, got another ?
Can we use Karma to increase Contacts? And if so what does it cost?
I don't see it in the book.
Also, suggestions for contacts all?
Thanks
JD
Can we use Karma to increase Contacts? And if so what does it cost?
I don't see it in the book.
Also, suggestions for contacts all?
Thanks
JD
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