That would be on page 143 in the autofire rules.

-Frank

Hardened Armor is another thing that breaks at the high-end. I think your fix is more or less exactly how it should've worked in the first place.
It leaves the armor impervious to weak attacks. It makes the armor less impervious to moderate attacks. It makes the armor more effective against strong attacks. So it nicely smooths the destroyed-or-nothing effect which occurs for high hardened armor values.

We tried the whole hardened armor value as automatic hits during a session but it was crazy. It happened to be a higher end run with the runners dealing with multiple Citymasters. They had access to AV rockets but those still make very small dents in the vehicles (took 3-4 rockets per Citymaster)

After that session we decided to use half automatic and half rolled.

It is really nice and does not add much overhead to the table (especially if you buy your hits with the leftover dicepool.)


@Moon-Hawk: HIS way

OOoooooo....Here is a neat little loophole with that: If I have bonelacing, and I punch something with immunity to normal weapons, then, it does not get its immunity, because my hand while, sure, is hitting harder because it has metal nt bone in there, is not a weapon!

Only if you also possess Killing Hands. A fist, even a fist lined with bone lacing, is still considered a normal weapon, just like it would be if it were a cyberlimb or packing brass knuckles.

I think you may have missed the part where it mentions that ItNW applies to pretty much everything non-magical.

Yes, exactly.

Now you get to ask: Why would people have Weapon Focus Katanas? And honestly I still can't answer that. Weapon Foci bypass Immunity to Normal Weapons and Regeneration and I still don't care.

-Frank

Well, you see...one CAN tend to go with the literal approach. Simple fact is: I can go on a plane and keep my hands(for now), so they are not weapons.

Also, considering that your hands are living, while a weapon is not...I think if could actually be cool to face something that you shoot multiple times, and it shrugs off, but Bob the Troll gives it a massive uppercut, and you hear bones crack...

Admittedly, there is also the simple fact that the things that have Immunity to Normal Weapons are not things you would be engaging in hand-to-hand unless you were a Physical Adept in mst cases...because, well them against mundane fists=Runner becomes kibble...but, I could still see that. And, of course, if you don't have something libe bone density or bone-lacing, it will take a lout of pounding to take something down, anyway...

allways been like that, will allways be like that . . and it is good that way ^^

Exactly. Which is why I do not consider fists or feet to be "weapons", especially since naturally, they only deal stun damage. My GM might disagree..we will see waht she says after re-reading the rules on Immunity to Normal Weapons, but...I still think it is a cool image..

Until you use them (or even threatened to use them) in an act of assault or violence of some kind. The same argument could be made for a bottle, or a table leg, or even another metahuman body. The fact remains that if something is used as a weapon in Shadowrun, then it is considered a weapon according to the rules. Fists (and even fists with bone lacing) have a listed damage base in the rules, and the is no mention of bone lacing (or any other normal implant) being inherently magical in nature. If that weapon is non-magical in nature, then ItNW applies.

....yikes, Short Stuff (#100, yay, the century mark) just became a whole lot nastier, even when using her Killing Hands.

...I know, the law is pretty twisted in that way. Where I live, If I shoot and possibly kill someone who is breaking into my place & threatening me, It's considered self defence. If I say whack him in the hand or leg with my Louisville Slugger or my fighting staff (with which I am trained) I'm up for assault and he's the victim even though I was not necessarily using lethal force. In my book, he gave up his rights to have me prosecuted by the nature of his act. However, let's not get into a lengthy derail about this here.
[/derail]

We use the 5+5
Force 5 spirit has 5 auto hits meaning ANY attack doing 5 or less does no damage.
Since the spirit gets 5 more dice to doll it can possibly shrug off a couple more, (statistically almost 2 more,) meaning there is a neat level of unknown potential for a situation.


@Frank: I concur that these rules do make AP weapons VERY usefull. They are now in high demand in my game like they should be, (and are justified in their extreme cost.)

Thanks. That's probably the direction I would be leaning, should I use these rules.

it's what they are there for, quit complaining *g*

hrm . . would power-throw bei considered as being magical enough to work against spirits and the such? probably not huh?

Whoa, wait.....what?
Would it?
This would be HUGE in my gaming group. Does Missile Mastery make a thrown object non-normal, with respect to ItNW? Does power throw?
Granted most thrower builds have both, but does it?

Personally I think the Hardened Armor rule works very well for, well, armored targets such as military vehicles and the like. Take for example a tank: small arms and small-caliber cannon fire and the like simply do nothing - they bounce off, explode harmlessly on the armor, etc. If a shot is big enough and powerful enough to penetrate the armor, it's probably going to "kill" the tank, as whatever solid bits get through the armor are going to destroy whatever is behind it, whether that's the engine, ammunition, crew, or whatever.

Whether Spirits, supernatural critters, cyberzombies, and the like should really be using Hardened Armor or not is, to me, a different question (and I don't have an opinion on it as I'm not familiar with how those things work out in actual play).

DS

i pretty much only agree with you on point B, up untill then i would ask why the thrown weapon does more damage if any magical effects just simply stop when the thrown object is leaving the hand of throwing adept . .

Because the Adept's magic affects his aim and ability with the weapon. It does not make the throwing weapon magic in and of itself. Ranged magical weapons do not work in Shadowrun. It is one of the core foundations of the magic system. You could have a Weapon Focus dagger, which works just fine in your hand. The moment you throw it though, it loses any bonuses for being a Weapon Focus, reverting back to what is effectively a non-magical weapon until such time as it comes back into contact with the person to which it is Bonded (or is re-Bonded, whichever comes first).

i know that bit about there not being any magical weapons in SR of course . . i'd just think that to improve his aim and ability with said weapons would come from improved attribute(whatever is used with throwing) and improved skill(throwing weapon) . . so what exactly does missle mastery DO?