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Serial_Peacemaker
Now I know the rules are not out for this, but in older editions if I remember correctly you were able to be infected with Ghoulism, and be non-symptomatic but contagious correct?
Kanada Ten
I don't recall any non-symptomatic cases, specifically, though some of the latter generation ghouls had reduced symptoms - even allowing one (known individual) to attend college and live in a dorm room, undetected (and without infecting anyone, IIRC).

There could be spells and talent magic talents which could also suppress expression, or in cases of living within mana dead zones.
hyzmarca
SR3 comp.

When exposed to the disease, you make a Body test vs (Carrier's Essence). If you get any successes, then your immune system successfully suppresses the disease, preventing transformation. However, you may still be a carrier of the disease (essentially gaining the Pestilence Power) at GM discretion. Such carriers are actual more contageous than normal ghouls, since they don't lost the essence point that is lose during transformation.
Snow_Fox
You found this faster than I could. ut it does raise soem ideas. Evil ideas. an accidental spreader lost in the sprawl, someone willingly passing it (As the histoircal Typhoid Mary was) or some sort of ghoul queen-ooo.
Daddy's Little Ninja
Have I ever told you, you can really creep me out. We are so talking before I let you tell Rei any bed time stories.

To think of the topic though. Imagine a joy girl who does not know she is a carrier. A love bite here or there and an incubation period and she leaves a trail on fresh infectees behind her.
Stahlseele
yep, i've had simmilar ideas before this . . but now i somehow wanna build that O.o
Snow_Fox
QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja @ Feb 4 2008, 03:15 PM) *
Have I ever told you, you can really creep me out. We are so talking before I let you tell Rei any bed time stories.

To think of the topic though. Imagine a joy girl who does not know she is a carrier. A love bite here or there and an incubation period and she leaves a trail on fresh infectees behind her.
Ok you come up with that and you're worried about me. I'm such a good influence on you.
Malicant
This is exactly the reason why making Ghouls into a disease was a very bad idea. Rules wise it was to contagious, but fluff wise there are no Ghoul epidemics. The setting handles them still like they goblinze. Which they will forever in my withered heart rotate.gif
djinni
QUOTE (Malicant @ Feb 4 2008, 09:58 PM) *
This is exactly the reason why making Ghouls into a disease was a very bad idea. Rules wise it was to contagious, but fluff wise there are no Ghoul epidemics. The setting handles them still like they goblinze. Which they will forever in my withered heart rotate.gif

in previously unnamed editions...the average body was 3 the TN# to not get infected was 5 (1:3 chance). so rules wise yes there are no epidemics...on teh flip side you could always note that ghouls are feral/underground and rarely left someone alive to be turned.

but what really caught my attention was that posters are upset about their contagious effect instead of the "magical" way all atrificial light gets extinguished around them?
Siege
For even more giggles - mutant strains of ghouls.

-Siege

Edit: And splash rules for accidental infections...
Rajaat99
I can't believe I never thought of that before. Sadly, I've always used ghouls as "monsters". A Joygirl carrying the strain and passing it without thinking. Brilliant!
Mercer
QUOTE (Malicant @ Feb 5 2008, 01:58 AM) *
This is exactly the reason why making Ghouls into a disease was a very bad idea. Rules wise it was to contagious, but fluff wise there are no Ghoul epidemics. The setting handles them still like they goblinze. Which they will forever in my withered heart rotate.gif

It's a fair point that you make, Malicant. If exposure to the Krieger variant of the HMHVV means that 2 out of 3 "average" humans will be infected, ghoul infections would be a lot more common. I think this a case of a game designer wanting to make something a threat for the pc's (which have above-average BOD stats) and didn't really think how that would impact the established game world.

Its up to the GM to fix it, whether by setting a criteria for what constitutes exposure (only bite wounds, not claws, not just a single bite but extended gnawing), or making one strain of Krieger especially virulent and making most ghouls non-infectious. (I haven't really looked at ghouls in SR4, but I know they don't get Infection or Essence Drain, so its not entirely clear to me how they would infect anyone.) Or just ignoring it altogether.

One of my favorite NPCs was called Living Dead Girl, or LDG, or Teresa. Her gimmick was she was the only one in her family to not turn into a ghoul. This made her a valuable person in certain circles, particularly if you needed meat disposed of. But there was something neat about the image of a fairly normal girl who would occasionally go visit her family that lived in a half-destroyed camper rattily assembled in a sewer tunnel. It was kind of like the family in Texas Chainsaw Massacre, except not that creepy.

Personally, I like using a lot of different types of ghouls. Ravening, almost mindless ghouls. Intelligent rotters. Fast ghouls. Slow ghouls. Ghouls who can almost pass, ghouls who can pass. I need them to fill a lot of roles. So I like to have variant strains and the amount of time infected as well as the amount of food they get and the conditions they live in to all have an affect on their condition. Things that are difficult to replicate under laboratory conditions.
Siege
And if you plan on using ghouls like zombies, mix it up just a tad - the same rendition of easily butchered critter loses it's fear factor to million-nuyen samurai.

Starting throwing in random powers, mutations and whatnot and it's a whole new kettle of slobber.

-Siege
Grinder
Can Shedim inhabit the bodies of dead ghouls? wink.gif
Daddy's Little Ninja
I think the high TN is not too big a problem, unless the ghouls try to recruit. Most people who they grab end up as dinner before they can turn. Runners, being armed and armored are more likely to survive an attack than the wino under a bridge.
nezumi
There are no (or few) ghoul epidemics because the disease has a very long incubation time, during which it is largely non-contagious, is treated relatively easily during the early stages with medication, and treated even more easily in the later stages through lead injections. Presumably it is relatively easily detected with simple medical treatment as well.

In other words, the only place it'll be an epidemic is with those who don't get even basic medical care, and the government doesn't recognize or care for. As long as there are no groups like that around, you should be alright.

bibliophile20
QUOTE (Grinder @ Feb 5 2008, 09:09 AM) *
Can Shedim inhabit the bodies of dead ghouls? wink.gif


Why wouldn't they be able to?
Grinder
It was more like a rhetoric question. biggrin.gif

So you can have twice the zombie fun: first the PCs have to make their way through hordes of various ghouls, only to discover that the killed ghouls rise from their graves again, possessed by Shedims! cool.gif
Siege
QUOTE (nezumi @ Feb 5 2008, 03:16 PM) *
There are no (or few) ghoul epidemics because the disease has a very long incubation time, during which it is largely non-contagious, is treated relatively easily during the early stages with medication, and treated even more easily in the later stages through lead injections. Presumably it is relatively easily detected with simple medical treatment as well.

In other words, the only place it'll be an epidemic is with those who don't get even basic medical care, and the government doesn't recognize or care for. As long as there are no groups like that around, you should be alright.


You mean like the SINless winos in the Barrens?

Although I suppose it largely depends on a GM's interpretation of social realities in SR.

-Siege
nezumi
QUOTE (Siege @ Feb 5 2008, 11:52 AM) *
You mean like the SINless winos in the Barrens?


A bunch of SINless folk doesn't count as an epidemic, at least not as far as UCAS Center for Disease Control is concerned.
Malicant
QUOTE (nezumi @ Feb 5 2008, 12:05 PM) *
A bunch of SINless folk doesn't count as an epidemic, at least not as far as UCAS Center for Disease Control is concerned.


A bunch meanig most of Puyallup and Redmond in Seattle alone. Yes, I think if Ghouls were that contagious as described in SR3, which was weak, but still very easily spread, than the Barrens of Seattle at least would stop being SINles. They would be people-less. Also, we have one African state made of Ghouls. A state, on a continent that has a pretty gimped social and medical system. Ghouls could run the place pretty easily, infecting those they need to fight and sparing those they herd for food. Which they don't do because they are nice or afraid of retaliation, I guess. Or they are beyond wisdom asuming if everyone is turned Ghoul they would be at square one with everyone making they own Ghoulparadise. Right. That must be it.

So, Ghouls as infectious disease is rather bad for my syspension of disbelief. Luckily, pestilence power is gone so thats one problem less.
nezumi
When there's a disease that begins showing symptoms before it becomes contagious, it becomes much easier to control, especially when you have groups of people who don't mind killing large portions of the population in order to control it. And certainly, mercilessly killing neighborhoods of SINless folk where a few ghouls are reported fits in fine with the dystopian setting.
Malicant
QUOTE (nezumi @ Feb 5 2008, 01:37 PM) *
When there's a disease that begins showing symptoms before it becomes contagious, it becomes much easier to control, especially when you have groups of people who don't mind killing large portions of the population in order to control it. And certainly, mercilessly killing neighborhoods of SINless folk where a few ghouls are reported fits in fine with the dystopian setting.


Not really, no. That's not dystopian. That's just slaughter.
Governments can't afford the publicity and corporations have nothing to gain from doing so. The govs would quarantine the area, the corps ignore it.
Grinder
One of 'em (either government or a corp) could either hire or manipulate a terrorist group to launch a full blown attack on an infected neighbourhood.
Moon-Hawk
Donate food to the poor neighborhood laced with a chemical that is deadly to ghouls, but will only make the humans sick. ork.gif
nezumi
Or you just have neighboring gangs say "hey, I saw a ghoul over in that neighborhood. Let's waste 'em all before they reproduce!" (But yes, it's very reasonable to assume the government or corporations will just cordone off wide neighborhoods. Or they could bomb the area and say it's someone else. Or just put their own gangs down there to do it. It's not like CNN has an office in Puyallup, and it's pretty clear the winos there don't have myspace accounts. There are quite a few ways to kill large, possibly infected populations without causing too much fuss, you just aren't being very creative. If that weren't the case, UB would not have been nearly as successful as it was.)

Apartheid is hardly new, and slaughter based on things like disease, race, etc. would quality by most definitions of dystopia. Eventually people who think they're infected would learn to hide or kill themselves, limiting the extent of the plague.
Serial_Peacemaker
Honestly one of the biggest reasons I can see for a ghoul not spreading is that I play it that Ghouls if completely feral are not truly predatory, and if they do kill it is mostly do to being territorial. The ones that are smarter tend to realize that if everyone was a ghoul finding dead human flesh to eat would be a bit of a problem. Also getting the feral ghouls off the streets makes life much easier for the smart ghouls. Also a giant closed down meat packing factory jam packed with caged up feral ghouls going through 'nursery' school taught by more intelligent ghouls is an interesting way to mess with your runners heads.
Siege
Actually, the homeless of today can get online pretty easily - libraries and colleges are two easy points of access.

With the availability and integral nature of the net in SR, you'd have to work pretty hard at not having any access.

This may be something of a rhetorical question, but what is the possibility of a pack of ghouls boiling out of the sewers in the nicer corporate enclaves?

-Siege
hyzmarca
Given the natural death rate and the existence of Shedim, Ghouls provide a valuable public service.
Snow_Fox
Thinking of this, because they eat what they bite, most ghoul attacks don't lead to an epidemic, just a buffet. BUT DLN's idea of an infected joy girl does mean a potenial epidemic. Suppose she infects Joe salleryman and his 12 buddies who hire her for a bachelor party. They don't know go home and maybe half of them, themselves now contagfious pass it to their partner/spouse? suddenly you've got it in a corp facility?

or suppose the 12 guys are old high school buddies and each goes home and then to a seperate job. You've got a detecive sotry trying to run down the cause of a sudden spurt or outbreaks in a neighborhood. Gee we found them all and treated most of them in time, and Don you look better without hair, trust me, the comb over wasn't working. What do you mean you had another chummer at the party? and he's where? Oh the ultra tight corp facility in...
nezumi
An interesting twist is suppose, unlike classic Krieger strain, the strain only actually manifests in about 10% of the people infected and the rest show absolutely no symptoms. Additionally, the virus has changed enough that it doesn't show up using conventional tests. The current system means you are basically guaranteed to know who is or isn't infected if you're looking.

BTW, anyone a little surprised Shadowrun has so little on custom-built diseases? Sounds like it would make for a great assassination device.
Malicant
Diseases for assassination? Why? Blades, guns even poisons are quicker, cheaper and more reliable. If you want to spend money on an assassination you use some nano-cutter beasty or orbital bombardment.
nezumi
Because they're discrete. If it's found he had undiagnosed cancer or gets a case of HMHVV that seems immune to treatment, isn't obvious he died of natural causes? Poor man.
Serial_Peacemaker
I think the problem with a tailored disease is that the hard part is making it unique. Very few people are going to want to assassinate someone and potentially kill the western seaboard. Also the issue with catching HMHVV is that it kills you, and then you get back up again, usually permenantly. The Cancer idea though, that of course has potential.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE (nezumi @ Feb 7 2008, 09:25 AM) *
BTW, anyone a little surprised Shadowrun has so little on custom-built diseases? Sounds like it would make for a great assassination device.

...

Because they're discrete. If it's found he had undiagnosed cancer or gets a case of HMHVV that seems immune to treatment, isn't obvious he died of natural causes? Poor man.

I think it has something to do with how advanced medical treatment is supposed to be. Unless it's very fast acting or amazingly advanced, most of the targets who are worth customizing a superbug to kill, will have the resources to make a custom treatment. In worst case scenarios, they could use magic to put the target in stasis while they design a nanohunter capable of destroying offending disease. Additionally, like explosives and nanites, custom strains will leave a fingerprint - if they're discovered, of course, which could be used to trace the lab which invented it or at least track its death toll.

Not that there isn't a time and a place for them, but these types of nasties are much more dangerous to large population centers, where the type of medical treatments needed to fight them cannot be produced or procured in large enough quantities with enough celerity or cost effectiveness to counter the epidemic.
Daddy's Little Ninja
QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Feb 6 2008, 10:28 PM) *
Thinking of this, because they eat what they bite, most ghoul attacks don't lead to an epidemic, just a buffet. BUT DLN's idea of an infected joy girl does mean a potenial epidemic. Suppose she infects Joe salleryman and his 12 buddies who hire her for a bachelor party. They don't know go home and maybe half of them, themselves now contagfious pass it to their partner/spouse? suddenly you've got it in a corp facility?

or suppose the 12 guys are old high school buddies and each goes home and then to a seperate job. You've got a detecive sotry trying to run down the cause of a sudden spurt or outbreaks in a neighborhood. Gee we found them all and treated most of them in time, and Don you look better without hair, trust me, the comb over wasn't working. What do you mean you had another chummer at the party? and he's where? Oh the ultra tight corp facility in...

Are you guys begining to see how her mind runs? Now imagine that she's the GM.
Ravor
Sounds like a fun table.
Malicant
QUOTE (nezumi @ Feb 7 2008, 04:25 PM) *
Because they're discrete. If it's found he had undiagnosed cancer or gets a case of HMHVV that seems immune to treatment, isn't obvious he died of natural causes? Poor man.


Cancer? Dude, seriously, no. Also, HMHVV is alsways immune to treatment. And it's never, ever natural.
krakjen
What happened with the good old lead indigestion ?
Or the C4 indigestion for the less subtle players (and they are many)...
Fortune
QUOTE (Malicant @ Feb 8 2008, 06:56 AM) *
Cancer? Dude, seriously, no. Also, HMHVV is alsways immune to treatment. And it's never, ever natural.


The Kreiger strain (ghoul variety) is certainly treatable within the first month.
Malicant
QUOTE (Fortune @ Feb 7 2008, 11:43 PM) *
The Kreiger strain (ghoul variety) is certainly treatable within the first month.

There is no such thing. Ghouls goblinize. spin.gif

Serioulsy, Krieger is the only strain that transmits without essence drain, it does not kill, the victim does not need to feed on essence and it's the only one that can be cured. Well, before it hits Phase Ghoul anyway. It's not HMHVV, it's just a pretender.

Have I mentioned that I don't like it, because it does not fit in? It's just so wrong. I hope they manage to fix the mess created in SR3.
Fortune
I understand all that, and also wish it were changed (back) in canon. As it is though ... biggrin.gif
Malicant
Also, I want my vampires not to have the Dietry Requierement (blood). That's just Emo.

Oh, look at that, houserules FTW spin.gif
Snow_Fox
QUOTE (Malicant @ Feb 7 2008, 02:56 PM) *
Cancer? Dude, seriously, no. Also, HMHVV is alsways immune to treatment. And it's never, ever natural.

of ocurse it's natural, just a trols and elves are natural.
Malicant
You don't naturally die of HMHVV. You get infected by someone delibaretly. Also, it does not kill permanently, as has been said.
bibliophile20
ic.gif Lone Star issued a statement earlier reporting the safe recovery of Horizon executive Yanick Aeson from a vampire nest in Auburn. Yanick was shaken, but is expected to recover from his horrible ordeal.

ic.gif *snort* Yanick walked out of there under his own power; the bloodsuckers didn't touch him once they found out who he was; something about "professional courtesy"... -Galen
Daddy's Little Ninja
Anyone check him for marks? I don't think they'd have turned him but I've heard vamp's have somesort of ultra addictive quality.
bibliophile20
ic.gif I didn't hear about it, so I dunno.
Snow_Fox
turning over the idea of a purposeful infection, hmm. imagine you can infect someone running for office in a tiohgt run? sure it can be cured , if it's caught in time but treatment alone is going to throw a candidate off their stride.

Look at today's campaign in the US. You manage to infect Hillary Clinton who is locked in a tight fight. She can't take time off easily, because she'll lose further ground while her opposition is still doing meet and greets. Even more you can hear how she's getting run down just with campaining. suppose she doesn't notice the infection until it's too advanced?
"I'm fine, just a little tired."
"Madame Senator, you're skin's grey"
"I'm not getting too much sun shut in the bus"
"Your hair's started falling out."
"Oh drek."

that could blow her chance at the nominatyion or worst, if it isn't caught until after she's got it locked up, throws a whole party into disarray as their presumptive candidate triesd to eat her aid and acceptance speech borders on the stuff of nightmares.
JBlades
In a thread awhile back, we were batting ghouls around, and this was the end result of the thread. You can do whatever you want with it, it uses the disease rules in Augmentation.

Krieger Strain of HMHVV
Disease:
Vector: Injection, Speed: 1 Day (3), Power: 3, Nature: Viral
Effects: Transformation into a ghoul.

B +4
A -
R +2
S +3
C –2
I +1
L –1
W +2
EDG -
ESS –1
M 1
Init –

Note that normal racial maximums still apply and that these are treated as stat augmentations, subject to normal rules.

Powers:
Dual Natured, Enhanced Senses (Hearing, Smell), Natural Weapon (Claws: S/2 + 1),

Ghouls get the following Negative Qualities and gain no BPs for them (these do not count against the 35 BP limit):
Allergy (Sunlight, Mild), Dark Secret (Ghoul), Dietary Requirement (Metahuman Flesh), Reduced Senses (Blind)., Sensitive System
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