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Brol_The_Mighty
Alright, so after being gone from gamine for 4 months (was on a work related trip) my gaming group is looking at going to 4e for SR. As I was reading the book, I found the Technomancer, and fell in love with the concept. A decker without a deck? A rigger with no VCR? That's freakin awesome! But then reading it, it started to sound a little too good to be true.

Can a REAL technomancer be done? I've read a couple threads on the forums about them, all pretty much stating they're gimped. This is what I wanna do essentially.

Be a GOOD hacker.
Be at least a FAIR rigger.

I'm looking to put the majority of my stat points into Logic, Intuition, Charisma, and Body. Putting into body for the extra boxes since we don't get Matrix Condition.

Skills would be the skill sets (is there ANY way to get these above 4 at chargen?) for all the good things they do....Cracking, Electronics, Tasking...are more needed.

Not really sure what to do for CF's. Was thinking about taking only a few at chargen, and then using sprites and threading for the rest. However threading the CF's that I do know to increase their rating.

Am I missing anything? Are there suggested Positive traits or whatever to help with this? Is burning a ponit of resonance for some cyber suggested? I'm not trying to min/max, but be good at what I do. The GM I've got can be fairly brutal (second run and my Body 18 (SR3 rules) sammy took 2 shots from panthers to the chest. And it wasn't because I was playing stupid.)
Whipstitch
Well, since you said you're aware that most of us think they're rather gimped, I'll assume you're not interested in hearing more doom and gloom so I'll just skip straight to the advice. You may want to swap your expectations around there a bit; generally I find it easier to be a good rigger and a fair hacker with a TM than vice versa. TMs suffer a bit in the hacking department because CFs are rather expensive and you can't really start out with all the Forms needed to REALLY hack well without heavy use of Registered Sprite services. That's not so big of a problem if you're a rigger, however, since you'd be concentrating primarily on the CFs needed to defend the team PAN (Analyze, Attack, Armor, maybe Black Hammer) and using Drones with decent Pilot attributes and Machine Sprites running Diagnostics and emulating Autosofts to do the rest your dirty work for you. I think nicely cybered Hackers with good Edge pools make the best overall matrix infiltrators due to their flexibility, but TMs really do make wonderful watchdogs and riggers thanks to their ability to have many li'l minions running the show for them and their natural bonuses to matrix perception; if anyone's going to spot an intruding corp hacker looking to wrest control of the team's assets away, it'll be the TM. YMMV.
Brol_The_Mighty
So if they ARE gimped in the hacking department (which is what I'm figuring out) what are way to ungimp them? What houserules or whatnot are people using? My GM is very laid back, and is willing to help out in regards to getting a PC to fit an idea...especially when a TM SHOULD be the best hacker out there...at least from the sounds of the fluff.
Nightwalker450
My GM allows me to thread complex forms as a free action, and I can rethread them to boost them higher. This is the only change in my group, and my Technomancer has faired pretty well in hacking. Quite powerful, but he keeps me in pretty tight time limits so I don't have unlimited time to always thread ridiculusly high. (And a few bad rolls on fading resistances, and I'm suffering a few negs anyways nyahnyah.gif)
Jaid
actually, your goals are fairly achievable *if* you don't mind being fairly reliant on sprites and threading for any sort of uncommon program.

it's not hard to make a TM that can hack like crazy (if you include sprites, especially registered sprites, and threading), make the rigger cry when he sees your dicepool for remote controlling, and in general be quite good at matrix activities for short periods of time. the main problem is that doing so will leave your technomancer completely horrible at anything else you could possibly name. but if that doesn't bother you, then sure... you can have a technomancer do what you said you want. just make sure to get a PMV and never leave it, no matter what. and don't expect to be useful should you have to leave it.

(short version: TMs can hack, and rig, but are prohibitively expensive to the point of excluding any other role you might imagine if they choose to be reasonably good at both hacking and rigging).
Kyoto Kid
...my issue is they really suffer in the meat world. If you want to be remotely fast out of the Matrix you take a huge hit on your resonance. Mages (& even Adepts) have other ways to compensate for this. TMs don't. Having only1 IP when the lead starts a flyin' is really bad.
Nightwalker450
Jaid is right in expense. My character is having to pick up some other skills, but I find picking up Mechanic skills, and equipment to handle electronic B&E (maglocks and such) to be something I can make alot of use of. I can then use the Machine Sprites to diagnose, and help me to break these open quicker. But if you're doing alot of rigging, then you can have some drones to add to the physical world. And in that you should be good, since (as far as I can find) Technomancers will use their own response instead of the drones putting you on alot higher playing field then most riggers without having a heavily modified drone.
Ryu
You have to make use of compiled sprite services for hacking (the supporting service, kind of sprite does not matter), and bolster that up with low-level threading. You can buy enough CFs to cover the needed allways-present programs. Matrix Combat and Stealth/Protection are key there. You will want a starting resonance of 5 for high CF ratings.

You should specialise in Machine Sprites. You need those for rigging, and the support service does not make demands for sprite abilities; it is pretty general. Take note that a drone rigger does not need to jump into drones, those can do pretty well without outside help, as THEY can use programs.

You can handle matrix combat by sprite-supporting your Attack CF (one you should have). Thats an effective Attack rating of 10, 12 with threading+2, so you will not need high mental stats for matrix combat. And combat will be over after (sprite rating) rounds, when the service expires.
Cardul
My feeling is: buff up your software skill, take a specialization in it for threading, and give yourself the key programs as CF: Analyze, Armour, Spoof, Stealth, and Exploit. Anything else, you thread. Admittedly, my GM has to decided to go with my idea of allowing a TM to upload programs from their Commlink, and use their brain as a commlink, with the CF's not counting against the program limit..but making using a program count as a complex action. She feels that balances the TM out...she is kind of expecting to see this show in in Unwired, too...as it kind of makes sense..(And I am the poor schmuck the group voted on to make their characters, since they are completely unfamiliar with the system, so my GM and I have been doing alot of talking....group consists of: Gunslinger Adept, Shinto Priestess, Tank Sam, Hacker/Technomancer, and my Wheel-man)
Ravor
Bah, just use bio for your meat IPs like any sensible Adept or Mage. cyber.gif


Brol_The_Mighty
So for at least in chargen, would u suggest to just give a TM a few more BP's to be on par with the rest of the group then? If so, how many? And another fix as count threading as a free action?
Ravor
Giving any one character more BPs then the others is a VERY bad idea, especially in a classless system.
Whipstitch
TMs aren't terrible enough to require extra bps. You can hack exceedingly well as a TM if you super specialize and always, always, ALWAYS have Registered Sprites on hand. Heck, if you build it correctly and have enough high rating Sprite Services Registered and ready to go, the super specialist TM can do just about anything on the Matrix better than a more generalized Rigger TM could hope to, and if he can manage to acquire the drones he had to pass up on at character creation out on the street he can actually likely beat the Rigger/TM in that area too, since he can compile Machine Sprites just as easily if not better. But the problem there is that your eally ARE a super specialist, and if you don't have a big mess of Registered Sprites on hand all the time you're pretty vanilla, so it takes a lot of preparation; sometimes more than is practical, especially when you consider such a character can't really afford to start with many resources.

On the other hand, a focused TM Rigger who skimps on CFs and diverts some nuyen and a point of Essence into stuff like SkillWires, Trauma Dampers, some good Drones and maybe a Muscle Toner is considerably less gimped meatside because he's always got a few toys to play with and can still be pretty good at creating Sprites who can help him out in other areas as needed. The problem there, unfortunately, is that CFs are so expensive that if you don't get a bunch at a decent rating at creation you likely won't be able to afford to get them at all, or at least not for a very long time, at any rate. In the longrun it's probably best to super specialize as a TM at first and branch out into meat skills and acquire drones once in play, but in the short term you're a LOT more likely to make it to the end of the run alive if you've got a nice sturdy van to camp out in, some drones watching your six and know your way around a Predator.
Ryu
I would absolutely get the maximum number/rating of CFs allowed at chargen. As Whipstich said, those are Expensive later on. At chargen I´d go with Resonance 5 and not install anything. Later on you walk the suggested implant route, resonance is not important after you bought your starting CFs.

Second, not only is the char super-specialised. You also have to know what you are doing with it. If you do not combine sprite services and threading, your potential is suddenly much lower, but you still paid more than the hacker. On the upside, you can get an easy and free +7DP mod on everything matrix, or +5/+2 to distribute.

Do not buy drones. Steal drones. Nothing with standard device rating will notice a hacking attempt with Stealth 10 running (You might want to take user access on rating 6 systems).
Whipstitch
Stealing drones is a wonderful way to get killed. They're typically Stealth RFID tagged and ran by talented people whose entire job is to notice when they're missing. Pulling a Jedi Mind trick on 'em and having the li'l buggers go about their normal routines as you sneak through the compound is one thing, but having them suddenly start acting up is something you should only do on your way out if things are going south to begin with. As a GM, I actually don't run under the assumption that corps run networks that are totally segregated with wireless inhibiting paint all over the place; I run under the assumption that corps run things wirelessly so if things are getting fishy they can have the corp equivalent of FastJack jump into Hotsim from a full continent away and come in to clean up the mess.

Anyway though, Ryu's advice isn't wrong, per se, we're just coming from opposite ends of the spectrum; who's right here depends on whether you can survive long enough as a super specialist to acquire the stuff needed to get your character out of which corner you choose to paint them into.
Ryu
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Feb 3 2008, 07:30 PM) *
Stealing drones is a wonderful way to get killed. They're typically Stealth RFID tagged and ran by talented people whose entire job is to notice when they're missing. Pulling a Jedi Mind trick on 'em and having the li'l buggers go about their normal routines as you sneak through the compound is one thing, but having them suddenly start acting up is something you should only do on your way out if things are going south to begin with. As a GM, I actually don't run under the assumption that corps run networks that are totally segregated with wireless inhibiting paint all over the place; I run under the assumption that corps run things wirelessly so if things are getting fishy they can have the corp equivalent of FastJack jump into Hotsim from a full continent away and come in to clean up the mess.

Anyway though, Ryu's advice isn't wrong, per se, we're just coming from opposite ends of the spectrum; who's right here depends on whether you can survive long enough as a super specialist to acquire the stuff needed to get your character out of which corner you choose to paint them into.


I think our positions are not that opposite. If you take over and keep enemy drones if things go south, you gain drones ( If you brought your own, any losses are on your ressources). The usual hardware upgrades only riggers will have can easily be done home. And complete disassembly finds all stealth tags. Those don´t have ECCM capability, so keep them suppressed until the drone is "clean". And a TM can fight an elite decker - think Attack rating 12...
Whipstitch
The matrix isn't about winning combat though, it's about accomplishing stuff so you can have better control of the meatworld/information. While you're busy fighting off elite hackers or even a few mook hackers the stuff that you were supposed to be doing in the meantime isn't happening unless you're burning through registered services at an astounding rate. Stealing drones is an option, but it's not always a very good one and having a few "clean" drones of your own is very sensible. Basically, what I'm saying here is that TMs are great in hypothetical situations but they're extremely vulnerable to attrition and a few bad die rolls 'cuz they rely on Threading, Compiling, Registered Services and Hotsim to get things done; taking on a tertiary goal/risk like stealing a few drones can stretch their resources pretty thin.
Brol_The_Mighty
All of this sounds like good idea. I'll take a look at chargen, and see what I can come up with, and then post it on here for review, if you don't mind. Maybe point out some obvious holes, or things that I forgot, or went overboard with. My biggest question is why does everyone suggest to only get Resonance 5 instead of 6?
Cthulhudreams
Because your short on BP as is, and the 6th point of resonance costs 25 BP, whereas the 5th only cost 10.
Fortune
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Feb 4 2008, 09:08 AM) *
Because your short on BP as is, and the 6th point of resonance costs 25 BP, whereas the 5th only cost 10.


Whereas that 6th point will only cost 18 Karma after chargen.
Brol_The_Mighty
Okay, so I'm trying to actually build up a standard BP TM....and I have NO idea how to get the stats to work. Limited to a max of 200 BP's to attributes and even with only getting Int, Log, Resonance, and Will to 5...you're already talking 200 BP's! Obviously you can't put all the needed stats to 5. Therefore I'm thinking to sacrifice 25 BP's to be a Dwarf, giving me a starting Bod and Will of 2, and a Str of 3. Thus giving me 40 BP's for the price of 25. Now for the rest:

Race: Dwarf (25 BP)

Bod: 3 (10 BP)
Agi:1
Rea:3 (20 BP)
Str:3
Cha: 4 (30 BP)
Int: 5 (40 BP)
Log: 5 (40 BP)
Wil: 5 (30 BP)
Resonance 6 (50 BP)

Total Attributes: 170 BP's + 50 BP for Resonance

Skills: 120 BP's
Cracking Skill Group 4 (40 BP)
Electronics Skill Group 4 (40 BP)
Compiling 6
Registering 4

Positive Qualities: 15 BP's
Codeslinger (10 BP) not sure which matrix action to put this into
Technomancer (5 BP)


Negative Qualities: +45 BP's (thus giving a net bonus of 30 BP's)
Addiction,Mild(Alcohol): +5BP's
Spirit Bane(Earth): +10 BP's
Back Luck: +20 BP's
Allergy,Mild(Sunlight):+10 BP's


Now, this leaves me with 65 BP's left.

CF's 30 BP's

Armor 6 (6 BP's)
Stealth 6 (6 BP's)
Analyze 6
Browse 6
Command 6
Attack 6 (6 BP's)
Edit 6
Exploit 6 (6 BP's)
ECCM 6 (6 BP's)
Scan 6

This leaves 35 BP's for resources, contacts, and other skills if wanted (if there are some I missed, please point them out.)

So what do you think? A good skeleton of a build so far? Tweaks or flames?

*edited to reflect changes to skills, and adding a Resonance score. Still have 35 BP's.
Lionhearted
uh your build seem to lack a resonance score
Ryu
Armor 5 (5 BP's) - Good
Stealth 5 (5 BP's) - Good
Analyze 5 (5 BP's) - Good
Edit 5 (5 BP's) - Sprite is enough
Command 5 (5 BP's) - Good for Riggers
Attack 5 (5 BP's) - Good
Decrypt 5 (5 BP's) - Sprite is enough
Exploit 5 (5 BP's) - Good
Sniffer 5 (5 BP's) - Sprite is enough
Defuse 5 (5 BP's) - Sprite is enough

Use compiled sprites, always. When the services are consumed, you can simply compile a new one.

Replace Threading Group by Compile + Register, you won´t get much use out of Decompile. Give compile the 6.

Round the stats out by improving Body. You won´t get meaningful Reaction without ware, so wear armor. Save up money for implants, Karma also goes into physical attributes and skills.
Brol_The_Mighty
On the CF's listed as a Sprite being good enough, are you meaning to actually drop the CF? What CF would you suggest I pick up in replacement?

So aside from using a Sprite for Assist Operation task to add its rating in dice, what are other ways of jacking up the TM's Dicepool for the Matrix?
Dashifen
I notice that you're missing Browse and Scan. They could be left for Threading or Sprites, but they're also useful enough and relatively commonly needed that having them as complex forms is nice, too.
Fortune
QUOTE (Brol_The_Mighty @ Feb 4 2008, 12:39 PM) *
Limited to a max of 200 BP's to attributes and even with only getting Int, Log, Resonance, and Will to 5...you're already talking 200 BP's!


Special Attributes, which include Edge, Magic, and Resonance are not included in the restriction of 200 BP at chargen. You can have 200 BP worth of the basic 8 Attributes, and then buy Edge and Resonance on top of that.
Brol_The_Mighty
Alright, so I'll drop Defuse and Edit, and pick up Browse and Scan.
Ryu
I meant that a Sprite service (giving you a rating 5 equivalent) is usually enough for some tasks. Noone with access to Data Sprites should ever have to use Browse. Some of the CFs are sufficient at a low rating, and you are much better of buying those ingame. You could consider ECCM if you want to Rig, and Encryption if your Group uses a houserule that makes it worthwhile to encrypt communications.
Magus
The setup looks good with the changes the Ryu mentioned, but I have found a better build would be the Orc. You can skip adding points to Body and Strength and use those elsewhere. The minimum body of 4 on an Orc (IIRC) grants you Armor like this Form Fitting Body Armor and the Urban explorer jumpsuit with no penalty or the Biker Armor ( FFBA/Biker Armor both in Arsenal)
Brol_The_Mighty
The Orc? Interesting...will definately look into that.

*edit: Looking at it now, you're right. Looks like going Ork would save 25 BP's to put somewhere else. Thanks for the find biggrin.gif
Sponge
QUOTE (Brol_The_Mighty @ Feb 3 2008, 08:39 PM) *
Negative Qualities: +50 BP's (thus giving a net bonus of 35 BP's)
Addiction,Mild(Alcohol): +5BP's
Spirit Bane(Earth): +10 BP's
Back Luck: +20 BP's
Allergy, Mild(Sunlight): +10 BP's


Maybe I missed a house rule you mentioned, but by RAW you can only have 35 points of Negative (or positive, for that matter) Qualities.

DS
Brol_The_Mighty
aww crap, i musta completely read over that part. Thanks for the heads-up.

*Edit: Alright, took care of that, leaving me with 20 BP's. I know that I still have gear/lifestyle and contacts to pick up. At this point I'm thinking that aside from those two things, I've got a decent starting build.
Ryu
I´ve got 20 more for you... Orcs have softcaps of 4 for both charisma and logic. You pay a bit of potential in logic in exchange for a somewhat cheaper race. Can be accepted (I´m considering an orc hacker right now), but non-trogs have it easier here.

Please learn some skills beyond the matrix. Nearly no ressources and low contacts is a real option here. Infiltration and Influence come to mind.
Brol_The_Mighty
Gotcha, meaning that if I were to put my Cha and Logic to 5, then I'd have to pay the 25 BP per because it's their max. Thus the need to drop those attributes by 4. Thanks for that. Yeah, I'm planning on grabbing some contacts and skills beyond the matrix, just wanted to see how many BP's I had left before doin that.
Haxx
In my game, I allow TMs to get all Common Use CFs for free and their Rating = Resonance. It is by no means a perfect fix, but it does stop the worst Karma to Nuyen ratio in the game. These CFs don't count against their maximum starting CFs either.

Plus, I don't think it is really all that broken. They still have to buy and upgrade their, all important, Hacking CFs.
Feshy
QUOTE (Fortune @ Feb 3 2008, 06:09 PM) *
Whereas that 6th point will only cost 18 Karma after chargen.


I think it is more of the first case than the second -- too few BP to spend. You can easily make the BP's more efficient than Karma with Complex Forms and resonance of 6, if you have BP to spare. This is because every complex form you raise from 5 to 6 to match your new resonance costs 1BP or 6 karma.

Buying that 5th point of resonance costs 10 BP (or 15 karma -- a 1.5 k/BP ratio), and is one of the most efficient uses of BP to Karma you can do (other than qualities and CFs.) To get that same efficiency out of resonance 6 and CFs, you would need to satisfy this equation:

6[x] + 18 = (1.5)*(25 + [x])

Where x is the number of complex forms you raise from 5 to 6. If my math skills are still good, that means between 4 and 5 complex forms are needed to be just as efficient in spending BP's and still having Resonance 6. I think most technomancers have that many, so karma efficiency isn't the issue here.

The hard part is actually coming up with the 30 BP's it takes to reach break even, as being a technomancer is already an extremely BP intensive task to begin with.
Brol_The_Mighty
So with 40 BP's left, I was thinking of going with Dodge 4 (16 BP's), Pistols 3 (12 BP's), and Etiquette,Street 2(8 BP's), thus leaving me with 8 BP's. I'll take 3 points worth of nyuen for lifestyle, and some small gear, and leave the other 5 for contacts. 1 contact at connectivity 2, loyalty 1, and another at 1/1. What do you guys think?

*edit: That is of course, unless I can get my GM to allow the houserule of Common CF's at resonance for free biggrin.gif
Ryu
QUOTE (Feshy @ Feb 5 2008, 05:54 PM) *
I think it is more of the first case than the second -- too few BP to spend. You can easily make the BP's more efficient than Karma with Complex Forms and resonance of 6, if you have BP to spare. This is because every complex form you raise from 5 to 6 to match your new resonance costs 1BP or 6 karma.

Buying that 5th point of resonance costs 10 BP (or 15 karma -- a 1.5 k/BP ratio), and is one of the most efficient uses of BP to Karma you can do (other than qualities and CFs.) To get that same efficiency out of resonance 6 and CFs, you would need to satisfy this equation:

6[x] + 18 = (1.5)*(25 + [x])

Where x is the number of complex forms you raise from 5 to 6. If my math skills are still good, that means between 4 and 5 complex forms are needed to be just as efficient in spending BP's and still having Resonance 6. I think most technomancers have that many, so karma efficiency isn't the issue here.

The hard part is actually coming up with the 30 BP's it takes to reach break even, as being a technomancer is already an extremely BP intensive task to begin with.


The formula is correct, and proves your point. This is the best case for buying the last attribute point because one gains much from having Resonance 6 at chargen. Logic and Intuition have a minor version of this, as each point provides three knowledge skill points, "worth" 6 BP. So dwarfs and orcs cost about the same. Dwarfs can have higher Log and Cha, Orcs have one more attribute point. Equal choices IMO, especially as max. number of CFs=2*Logik (Did you catch that Brol? Max. 8 CFs?).
Brol_The_Mighty
Nope, hadn't caught that sarcastic.gif

*edit: Looks like I'm going to have to run some of this by my GM before I have a finished build. You guys have given me a couple ideas to help with the chargen costs, like all Common CF's at resonance for free, and playing with the race and such. That, and I think I could reasonably argue about taking more than 35 BP's worth of negative qualities and being able to tak onto the build.
Whipstitch
Or you could just scale back your expectations a bit about what your top end dicepools need to be rather than pin your hopes on a chargen overhaul. With a TM you'll be stuck heavily depending on Sprite Services to really outperform hackers anyway; the difference between threading a Form up to a 7 or 8 rather than a 9 or a 10 isn't that big of a deal when you consider you'll likely be using Sprites to temporarily jack the CF rating up into double digit range for high risk stunts anyway. Resonance and CFs are rather important, but don't underestimate the value of having things like a Trauma Damper and Sleep Regulators for marathon compiling sessions or SkillWires and Muscle Toners to save some points and not being a complete invalid meatside.
Riley37
Addiction to Alcohol is all to plausible for anyone. Seems to me Technomancers, like wizworms, are also likely to use enough Psyche to get hooked.

Why get CFs of common use programs? For those, using a comlink with old-school ones and zeroes should suffice.

Disguise is a good skill for when you want to get close to a machine that isn't on wireless LAN. For example, disguise yourself as a technician, and if the guy at the door says "but the framistat is working fine, we didn't call a technician", well, you can make the framistat malfunction and create a false record of a service call. Perhaps Disguise (Uniformed Worker), which would also include janitor and courier disguises. And buy actual uniforms, for a few nuyen.
Whipstitch
Because TMs are terrible with old school commlink use. The way a TM interfaces with the 'trix is inherently different than the way a Hacker does things so the devs decided that they have to either use skillwires or learn the Electronics and Cracking skills twice to use normal techniques as well as they use their living persona. For better or worse having the Computer skill is vital since Analyze is a common use program linked to the Computer Skill; Browse/Data Search is about the only Common Use task I'd honestly be willing to default to mundane skills for, and even then it'd just be to load up an Agent and hope for the best.
Brol_The_Mighty
Alright, I've been cleared to be given the Common CF's at resonance for free. All others purchased normally, but the final point for Resonance does NOT cost 25 BP's, only 10. I can NOT have any cyberware/bioware at chargen, but later on afterwards is up to me. Was also suggested to pick up the "meat" skills like pistols and such, AFTER chargen. Our sessions are usually anywhere from 5-10 karma, so I should be able to pick some up quick. Looking back, I don't think I like the soft caps of 5 for the Orc, so I'm going back to Dwarf. Also, yes, I can get the CF's for free, but it still counts towards my cap of Logicx2.

*Edit: Alright, made changes to the build reflecting getting the common CF's for free, and Resonance to 60 for 10 pts instead of 25. We've still to sit-down and go over background and stuff, and I'll also be getting stuff from that as well. I'd kinda like to find a way to actually get some of my CF's to 6, but have yet to find a way to make it work. I was looking through the negative qualities, and was surprised that some of the old ones weren't in there. i.e. blind, and such. I was actually envisioning a blind TM using drones and sec cameras and such as his eyes. Almost like Neo in Matrix 3 while in the meat world...he saw their energy signatures.
Fortune
QUOTE (Brol_The_Mighty @ Feb 6 2008, 10:37 AM) *
... but the final point for Resonance does NOT cost 25 BP's, only 10.


Is the GM giving the same concession for awakened characters and Magic?
Brol_The_Mighty
aye
Cthulhudreams
Is it just me, or could you make this character with bigger dice pools by making him a hacker adept, only sacrificing a bit of concept?

Edit: This is not particularly useful trolling, but I just banged together a concept that sports 13 dice in matrix actions (beating this guys 11/13) gunnery pool of 15, two meat IP passes for hackastacking, physical confrontations or whatever, has the stealth, athletics, and influence group and has multitasking with 3 points of magic unspent.
Jaid
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Feb 5 2008, 09:08 PM) *
Is it just me, or could you make this character with bigger dice pools by making him a hacker adept, only sacrificing a bit of concept?

Edit: This is not particularly useful trolling, but I just banged together a concept that sports 13 dice in matrix actions (beating this guys 11/13) gunnery pool of 15, two meat IP passes for hackastacking, physical confrontations or whatever, has the stealth, athletics, and influence group and has multitasking with 3 points of magic unspent.


that's nice. the technomancer can get a stealth CF of 10+ relatively easily for short periods of time, can create sprites that can do things that nothing else can even touch and which cannot be subverted by normal hackers, doesn't require any equipment or cyber, can get 4 IPs in the matrix, and who knows what else when unwired comes out.

it is important to understand that a technomancer is not just a hacker that works a little bit differently, they are a whole different thing and they need to be played differently for them to work at all. your awakened hacker is, in fact, not as good as the technologically-enhanced hacker, btw (which is only appropriate) and cannot even come close to competing with a properly designed technomancer within that technomancer's field of strength. i've designed technomancers that can throw >20 dice on gunnery tests and piloting tests, and >12 dice on defense tests (without using full defense). others have made technomancers with stealth ratings so high that systems can't detect them, and exploit ratings so high they can break into a system before it gets a chance to even begin to realise there's something wrong. some of the sprite abilities can also break the rules of the matrix (unbreakable encryption, for example).

on the other hand, my optimised technomantic rigger can't shoot a gun nearly as well as a regular hacker, and probably doesn't even have the full range of CFs available barring heavy use of threading and registered sprites. he can't dodge or soak nearly as well, and if anything does go wrong (bad luck on a threading resist roll, or matrix combat where the TM doesn't get to make a surprise attack and finish the opponent in one turn) the TM will feel it a lot more. but within the area of specialty, or for a short period of time, a TM will do things that regular hackers can't even begin to touch. just pray that they never have to come out of their bunker/armored van/whatever, because they will be absolutely terrible if they have to do anything outside of the matrix, and hope even more that they have so many registered sprites with tons of services each that they can afford to just burn through services like crazy, because that's basically what's making them function at all...
Whipstitch
That's why I tend to advocate the lightly cybered TM, even if they STILL really suck meatside. TMs are all about Sprites, and Sprites take preparation. My primary goal with a TM is to be semi-functional outside of the 'trix via Skillwires, a couple drones, a decent First Aid pool (likely through the SkillWires) and to have a Sleep Regulator and Trauma Damper available so my character can be devoting virtually all of the his free time to Registering and healing his own stun so he can go straight back to Re-Registering like a madman. It's less karma efficient in the longrun relative to a lot of other builds, and can be sub-optimal depending on the GM in question, but on the bright side you can sling around so many Services that you'll hardly care anyway.
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (Jaid @ Feb 5 2008, 11:04 PM) *
just pray that they never have to come out of their bunker/armored van/whatever, because they will be absolutely terrible if they have to do anything outside of the matrix, and hope even more that they have so many registered sprites with tons of services each that they can afford to just burn through services like crazy, because that's basically what's making them function at all...


We clearly think differently and thus have no common ground for a discussion. That character would be unplayable in both my RL game and my current online game, but obviously not in yours.

As for my concept, I just used the basic book. With your comments I reconsidered it in light of augmentation, but I would have to make significant tradeoffs moving from meatworld -> virtual, probably dropping synaptic boosters, to make further gains in the matrix. The only 'pain free' step would be fitting pushed, but even that would take money just not there. The adept is on par with the normal hacker in terms of skill pools, the tradeoffs are in gunnery, were the mundance hacker can have a nanohive and control rig boosters, which is very useful.

But all that is tangential - the character in the thread here is very specalised - is that the right choice for the game? If so, why not make it more specalised and get that juicy hacking/gunnery pool?
Ryu
Comments:
Race: Dwarf (25 BP) - given your rebates, this is more reasonable than Orc

Bod: 2 - "Karma goes here"
Agi:2 (10 BP) - Pay 20 BP, increase by 2. Combat, Infiltration
Rea:2 (10 BP) - Shift one point to Bod, else Rea is 1 while wearing armor anyway
Str:3
Cha: 4 (30 BP)
Int: 5 (40 BP)
Log: 5 (40 BP)
Wil: 5 (30 BP)
Resonance 6 (50 BP)

Total Attributes: 180 BP's + 50 BP for Resonance

Skills: 120 BP's
Cracking Skill Group 4 (40 BP)
Electronics Skill Group 4 (40 BP)
Compiling 6
Registering 4

Positive Qualities: 25 BP's
Codeslinger (10 BP) - not sure if you should buy this. Your base matrix pools are good to go.
Technomancer (5 BP)
Aptitude(10 BP) not sure which skill to put this into - none. You have enough places to spend karma on marginal increases.

Negative Qualities: +45 BP's
Addiction,Mild(Alcohol): +5BP's
Spirit Bane(Earth): +10 BP's - As a mundane? I´m curious why.
Back Luck: +20 BP's - You don´t seem to like edge (I approve), but this is taking it to the extreme.
Allergy,Mild(Sunlight):+10 BP's
(Not in earnest, but is this the typical, beer drinking, underground living Darf; expelled from home because he stepped on an earth spirit? grinbig.gif )


Now, this leaves me with 55 BP's left.

CF's 30 BP's - You will want to have the free CFs at 6...

Armor 5 (5 BP's)
Stealth 5 (5 BP's)
Analyze 5
Browse 5 - Again, you have data sprites. Or more precisely, one registered data sprite. Edit is a better Choice.
Command 5
Attack 5 (5 BP's)
Decrypt 5 (5 BP's) - The data sprite is weeping because you ignore it. Want to have the five other bought CFs at 6?
Exploit 5 (5 BP's)
ECCM 5 (5 BP's)
Scan 5
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