That's just it though, a datajack can slot chips directly where-as a skinlink wire can't, you also don't have the ability to hook to a piece of equipment directly via cables.

Also don't forget that in order to be able to run 'softs like a datajack can you need to spend 0.4 Essence to pay not only for the implanted commlink but also an implanted sim-module.

I simply don't see a problem from a game balance angle either, in order to "replace" a datajack you end up paying four times more Essence, alot more nuyen and you still don't get all of the goodies that a 'jack provides, so I see even dedicated Deckers still using 'jacks in addition to their implanted commlinks and sim-modules.

You put the chip in a chipreader and interface it via skinlink. There goes the funny little signal right into... wherever the wire goes.


That's a nonissue to the datajack. We assume you have everything but a datajack. And of course the free wire.

Btw, the implanted Commlink already has a simmodule. At least by my BBB. So it's 0.2 Essence and the Datajack becomes still obsolete with our friend Wire.

That's just it though, without a datajack you are forced to carry around pieces of equipment to duplicate its functions. And that is a bad idea for the same reasons using a trodenet with external commlink/sim-module is a bad idea.

As to your second point, I believe that generally speaking a character should be a bang for his buck, and if he is willing to spend MORE Essence and MORE Nuyen AND is willing to carry around things like chipreaders and cable-adapters in order to weasle out of installing a datajack then I don't have a problem with him doing so. Although I will ask him whether he really wants to play a character that is a moron.

Malicant, if your copy of Fourth Edition Core give implanted commlinks a free sim-module then you need to return your defective copy for a new one, because this is what mine says.





And unless there is an Errata newer than 1.5 that I'm unaware of it doesn't appear there either.

*Edit*

Oh, and IF implanted commlinks came with sim-modules why does the entry under sim-module say this?

Boldfacing added.

Read more. Much more.



Soka

Just to underline that, you could not acces full VR with a crenial commlink, if it had no sim module. So, a cyberware needing another cyberware to do what it's supposed to do cannot be right.

Interesting, what we have here is a flat-out counterdiction in the rules, why am I not suprised that it appears in the Matrix chapter?

Ok, so you have pointed out ONE sentence that claims implanted commlinks come equiped with sim-modules, where-as in the equipment chapter it says that they do not several times.

As for cyberware not needing other pieces of equipment to do it's job, huh? Auto-injectors aren't nearly as useful without a biomonter, just as an implanted commlink isn't nearly as useful without a sim-module and a datajack.

I'll stick with "sim module on board" version, since it makes more sense.

Too each their own then. Although it doesn't change the fact that a character is spending more Essence and Nuyen to achieve something that still doesn't have all of the functions that a humble datajack can provide without hauling around additional equipment. And if you are willing to do that then why are you getting an implanted commlink in the first place?

What is a datajack capable of, that a commlink with sim module cannot? Don't start with slotting chips, a reader with skinlink is not exactly a huge piece of equipment and you can store the 'soft in the commlink anyway.

If you aren't concerned by hauling around a skinlinked chip-reader and cable adapter because they aren't huge pieces of equipment then why did you bother to even get an implanted commlink/sim-module in the first place? Once you start having to haul around pieces of equipment you've already missed the entire point of going under the knife in the first place.

So yeah, having to haul around chip-readers and cable adapters when you've already spent more Nuyen and Essence then you would have on a simple 'jack is more then enough reason to get one installed instead of skinlinking your internal commlink and sim-module. Otherwise you might as well simply use all external gear for the same effect.

I don't "haul" something that is smaller than a matchbox. Also, I only need the reader to upload the soft into my commlink. Once there, the reader can go back to storage until I get more/new softs. That's why I have a CC. No chips, no cable, no moveable parts, no suspicion.

That's why a wire should not replace a datajack.

You act like your getting the 'wire' for free. We're talking about four times the Essense cost for the commlink (with sim module) over the datajack.

So, if have an image link retinal mod, do I also get that nifty wire to upload stuff into my eyes? It was not for free either.

Sure - why not? Despite the name, direct skin contact is not necessary - remember that this works with items in pockets etc. A friend of mine has a car that uses this tech for the locks, and the car knows if her purse is sitting on a seat in the car with the "keys" in it...

Isn't that a wireless connection? Like an RFID tag?

That sounds like Signal rating 0 instead of Skinlink...

For skinlink to work you actually need direct contact to the skin. Otherwise it would be wireless and that's not the matter of discussion here.

Your objections to my usage of the word "haul" aside, the point is that without a datajack you are required to have extra pieces of equipment on hand in order to have access to all of the fuctions that a datajack would have provided, which is a drawback that someone who has already spent 0.4 Essence and alot more Nuyen simply can not get around even with skinlinking.

And you can just as easily use wireless technology to download the 'softs to your datajack or commlink as well so the your rant against skinlinks is even more pointless in that context, the situations where a Runner doesn't want to use properly secured wireless technology are the same situations where having to haul around extra equipment becomes a burden, even if I believe that a chip-reader and cable adapters are onlt matchbox sized.

Oh, and unless I missed something in ARSE whether skinlink technology requires direct skin contact or works through clothing is a matter of DM fiat, personally I figure that something using your bio-electric field works through normal clothing, but not unadapted armor.

The reason I brought it up is that the key DOES have to be in close contact (not touching skin, mind, but in wallet) and you do have to TOUCH the car to unlock it (and touch the ignition button to start it). On rethinking, I believe the "key in car" functionality may be done via RFID. But the primary use of the key (to open locks and to start the car) the key does not have to be in direct contact with the skin, being in a wallet in your pocket is good enough. (You do have to, as I said, touch the car door or the ignition button while the key is in your body's electrical field).

There are reasons to have a datajack (especially if you DON'T have an embedded commlink). But I see no real reason an embedded commlink would need to have a datajack along with it; except that there are certain functions (chipreading, etc) that would be much easier if you had a datajack. I'm in the middle of writing up some info about the UCAS army in my campaign, and the UCAS military does still use datajacks for a variety of reasons.

Stop that 0.4 Essence nonsense. A commlink costs 0.2. Even The Hacker archetype has a crenial commlink, has it Hot Simmed, but he has no sim module implant.
And if you argue that you already paid essence for the cc so it's unfair to cahrge extra just for a datajack, that same must be true for every other thing that was paid with essence for, like cyber eyes, if you allow it to magically transfer data from skinlink.

And if skinlink did not need skin contact you could simply call it bodylink. So, no, the signal should not go trough clothing. It requires contact. That's why it is not WiFi.

Sure a commlink costs 0.2 Essence, but a commlink is unable to run 'softs without a sim-module which also costs 0.2 Essence for a TOTAL 0.4 Essence. You are however free to use whatever houserules at your table that you wish. And generally speaking it isn't wise to try to use the sample characters in an argument, they are very poorly done and don't tend to follow all of the rules in the first place.

Also I'm not quite sure why you seem to think that I'm claiming it isn't fair to charge for a datajack if someone has an implanted commlink, I'M the one saying that regardless of skinlink a Runner would be stupid not to install a datajack as well, and YOU are throwing a fit claiming that the ability to skinlink cyber makes datajacks useless because external equipment could pick up the slack. (All the while ignoring the fact that the same thing could be said about wireless connections as well.)

I'm not quite sure what you mean about letting all cyberware transfer data, that is a simple fact of life in Fourth Edition.

Oh and once again, show me where direct skin contact is required to use a skinlink.

I'm running in circles. This is no house rule. Crenial commlinks have sim modules from the start. No where in the book is mentioned you need the sim module cyberimplant to go VR with a crenial commlink, BUT ther is a passage that says they come equipped with said sim module.

But that does not matter at all. Even if you payed 7 gazillion essence for various headware implants, you would still not get the benefit of a datajack, the primary benefit of a datajack that is, for free, just because it would be nice to have. The crenial commlink works fine without a 'jack on WiFi. If you are a security nut and don't want WiFi, let them drill a hole in your head, or there is no game. It's really that simple. And I know that you will not accept this, but that does not change the facts, or the simple truth that I don't really care but will beat this horse into a bloody pulp until you are too tired to argue anymore.

I'm really good at that, btw

You'll note that there is no mention of a Sim Module included with this entry. In fact, it gives you a page reference to the normal commlink rules.



See that this also refers the reader to the normal sim module listing. Also note that a Sim Module is a commlink accessory, and as such cannot be used without an attached (in this case implanted) commlink.

Funny you should use those quotes. Further up this page you will find a quote I used, which is way more fun. For ease I will repeat it.



So, I have a reference that includes sim modules, while your reference does not exclude sim modules in crenial commlinks. Huh.

If this was chess, that is check. Move your King.

You guys are arguing for pages over a single 0.1 essence implant?

Never mind that someone could just handwave the implanted comlink/datajack as an example of a common suite that has been perfected, thus the datajack is... essentially... free.

To be honest, if I wasn't an old school Runner I would have been mightily confused by that datajack entry in the cyberware table. I recall reading the sr4 book (pdf...) when I first got it wondering... and mind you I KNOW what datajacks are for... what it was doing there, what with the new matrix and all. Just seemed... like an appendix really.

But I'm sure I've said something horribly controversial and/or offensive to one or more people involved in the current fight and I'm gonna spend the next few pages feeling like such a noob for saying something stupid about cyberware in a thread about...


...



...



Magic.

I'm fairly sure there are still some chunks of dead horse left arounf here to beat for at least 2 pages before we need the change topic. I don't know when the whole thread shifted into tech diskussion, but it looked like fun. And it is.

Yes, implanted commlinks can, and indeed some do include sim modules. I gave you the quotes on the Essence costs for those that choose the option of having a sim module included.

Basically all you might really be able to try to prove with your quote (if you so chose to do so) is that all implanted commlinks come standard with a sim module. That still doesn't get away from the listed Essence costs involved. At no time does your quote state that the sim module comes Essence-free as a bonus with the commlink implantation.

Hu? A commlink, that already always has a sim module costs 0.2 essence. A seperate sim module, such as used by people that really love to use their BTLs costs another 0.2. So together they would cost 0.4. But you don't need letter to access Full VR with your CC, since it already has a sim module.

And why am I so confident? Well, because the sim module is not listed as a accesory to the commlink, like low light is for cyber eyes, and because the Hacker sample character has a commlink in his head, that is hot simmed, but he totally has no sim module implant. Btw, his bioware costs have not been halved.
If you now look to the sim module accessory, that states it can be used with crenial commlinks, well, that's simple. You have a cold simmed CC, but needs the speed of hot sim (or are a BTL addict who does not want to run around with illigal headware) you hook up your hot sim module to your cold sim crenial commlink.

Also, the quote on page 228.

So, where were wo going? Ah, yes, circles. I already said all of that. I expect it to be ignored again. And a page or so I will repeat it again, just for lulz. Or I will be too bored to reply, I'm not yet sure. This thread is like pure gold right now.

You want to argue in circles, well then you just go ahead and have fun with your house rules. There's nothing wrong with that at all, and I even like that particular rule, as I don't think an accessory should cost Essence, but you really shouldn't deny that they are just that, house rules.

Makes me glad my new character has a Simrig implanted, which no one disputes does have an integral sim module .

That's no house rule, dammit.




Now, that is interesting indeed. I will think how to work that into my arguments.

Is too! Nyah Nyah Nyah Nyah Nyah!

Nah, it's not, you meany. I will tell mommy!

I believe this thread is almost done.

Well, this tangent anyway.

*Jokingly* Well I guess this is where I call Spike a heratic for not understanding the holy goodness that is the humnle datajack.

Seriously though, although I wish it was spelled out in black & white that datajacks come installed with the same wireless access that everything else does, including your mp3 capable underware I still don't understand why people don't see the simple goodness of being able to run 'softs and connect to virtually any piece of equipment without having to rely on external loot, all at a basement bargin price in both nuyen and essence, Malicant's houseruling not withstanding.

Would just like to go ahead and jump in that cranial commlinks do not come with sim modules. Look for the post by Rob Boyle in the IRC dev chat thread.

Link
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...mp;#entry636022

Basically, we see the "simple goodness of being able to run 'softs and connect to virtually any piece of equipment without having to rely on external loot", plus a whole lot more, by buying a cranial commlink at a bargain basement price.

Thanks. I was looking for this thread. I got the other two where this info was relevant, but couldn't recall the title of the third.

Personally I don't see implanted commlinks/sim-modules as adding enough value to be worth the extra costs for most people personally, and in the cases that they do, the person should also have a datajack installed so they are able to read chips and use cables without external equipment.

It seems like a pretty silly argument anyway. Cranial commlinks are dumb. They only provide any bonus at all whatsoever in the event that you're captured, stripped naked, and NOT kept in any kind of wireless shielded room. That's pretty conditional. And the downside is that to upgrade them you need surgery. If the devs wanted to make them worthwhile, they would give you some kind of bonus for having a direct, essence-sucking link with your neural commlink. But as it stands, it's just the kind of thing a "salaryman" would get; someone who doesn't know how to customize his commlink and will never need to upgrade because all he cares about is doing teleconferencing and filling out e-paperwork, and also will never have any other serious cyberware and doesn't need to worry about the waste of essence.

Still, you don't get a datajack for free, no matter how useful it is. Or rather, espacially because it is so useful.

And I agree Malicant, datajacks are too useful to throw on the ash-heap of history by giving them away for free, the difference is that I disagree that allowing cyberware to make use of skinlink technology comes anywhere close to doing so IF the default setting where everything is wireless anyways is allowed to stand.

I'm not sure if I can follow you here. You say that skinlink replaces datajacks because of WiFi?
If that is what you are saying, I must disagree (big surprise here ) since you don't use skinlink while using wireless and vice versa. If any device could access skinlink via wireless it would defeat the whole purpose of this technology.

Ok, I'll give this one last try.

Skinlink DOES NOT AND CAN NEVER REPLACE A DATAJACK!

Wireless DOES NOT AND CAN NEVER REPLACE SKINLINK!


Cyberware is designed by default to use wireless technology to transfer data.

It costs 50 to adapt cyberware to be able to use skinlink technology in order to transfer data.

This ability does not replace a datajack BECAUSE cyberware could already use wireless to transfer data.

Kewl. So we do agree, as it seems. Your last post just confused the heck out of me

Back in 2nd Edition, one of our players had a rather brutal method of dealing with mages: an Ares Squirt loaded with DMSO/Stim patches.

Since each Stim patch required a Magic Loss check, he'd just burst-fire and make the GM roll for magic loss for each bullet, then smirk as the GM's uber-mage instantly became a mundane.

The SR4 equivalent seems to be mage-based ECM (aka Mana Static), which is far more temporary.

Huh. I wonder what a DMSO/Deepweed/FAB III cocktail would do...

How many times did the GM smirk and do the same thing back at the players?

Or just give captured runners a beer and a cigarette and the use the addiction rules as written. It's a short trip to zero essence town and addiction burnout for you, buddy.

All his Awakened characters had specific Anchor foci linked to 'Detect Toxin' spells. He was generally very good at coming up with effective counter-measures to his own shenanigans, and keeping them to himself until he needed to use them.

I wonder why your runners didn't simply shoot the mage with a DMSO/narcoject or neurostun cocktail instead, then capped him in the head once he was down. Or use deadly poison right away.