IMO they would still be invisible - of course, any observer would notice this strange, roughly human-shaped empty space in the paint rain...

I have to disagree. Magic is rare. That's true. But only because 1 in 100 people has magical ability that does not mean that only 1 in 100 shadowrunners has magical abilities.

Hover Feet for example are way better than the adept power of gliding for getting over water and the such . .
Radar eyes allow to see through walls which magic does specifically not allow .. astral perception does not allow to see through walls you can just go through the wall while in astral space and see what's behind the wall, but no seeing through it . . the distance strike is now available for mundanes with a cyber-arm, bullets don't cause drain and so on and so on O.o

Magic is powerful, and is supposed to be so. And yes, in the end there is very little mundane security can do again magic, just like there is very little a mage can do to prevent a hacker from hacking a system. Each to his own. Most secure corp installations will have magic security either in the form of patrolling spirits, awakened critters, awakened plants etc. and the ubiquitous wards. A place without one of these will not have anything worth stealing anyway.

And the invisible swordswinger can easily defeat security guards, just like a gunbunny or troll sammie can easily defeat security guards. That's why security guards are not meant to combat 'runners, but rather to alert professionals. When HTR teams with combat mages and backup spirit arrives, Mr. Invisible will have a tough time. Not only do the mundanes have ultrasound (and why not?), his active spells lights up like a christmas tree in astral space so the spirits and mages will see him very quickly.

So no, I don't think magic is broken. Hacking is another matter entirely, especially slowhacking which is almost impossible to detect against someone with a good program.

I also have to disagree with Synner. I'm pretty sure that the Runner community has an abnormally high number of magically active when compared to standard statistics. I also don't think that every little mage gets snapped up by megacorps since, just like real life, gifted people historically don't play well with others. As to the prevalence of "non-standard" cyberware (I'm not sure exactly what that means. Do you mean things that are illegal like wires or cyberguns?) I think that is usually handily described in a characters background. With a 400 pt character build I usually accept the following reasons for having all this ware:
-Military background. Past a certain rank or in certain occupations I'm pretty sure the military will be willing to put a few bucks into you to keep you alive. Plus, in a world with skillwires and so forth, it might actually be cheaper/faster to simply throw some cyber into a person than try to train them. If a professional ability in something is a 3 than installing a lvl 3 skillwires set and giving a soldier a box full of 9k active softs is probably a lot cheaper than physically sending someone to school somewhere. Plus you're saving a bundle on opprotunity costs since you field the soldier much faster than if they trained normally. On a nastier note... if the guy gets geeked, you can always recycle the wares...
-Long time Shadowrunner. If you've been running the shadows for more than a couple of years you'll have skill and equipment levels that reflect your "Still Alive" capabilities. Corps and so forth having been using Runners for years, I refuse to believe that guy who is in charge of marketing wired reflexes isn't thinking "Man, we need to move at least 2k of these units to the Shadow community to turn a profit this year." Like everything else the corps do, Shadowrunning is a self feeding service. We hire the Runners who need the wares who buy them from us. Corps have a good reason to keep the Shadow community well fed, even if it occasionally bites them in the ass. It also makes sense that a corps would be willing to install 100k's worth of wires in a runner in exchange for half a million worth of damages to a rival corps.

A 400 pt PC is a "hero" character for lack of a better term. They represent /less/ than 1% of society and should have a gear/power level to reflect that. Now if you are running a grittier 200-300 pt build, I agree that limiting ware is a big part of fitting that atmosphere. At 200 points players are much closer to the "baseline", a baseline that doesn't have crazy cyber or level 3 power foci.

But Levitate is better still.



Not true. Clairvoyance works just fine through walls.

one alternative to warded vehicles would be a biofiber clad one.

sure, the driver would still have to look outside, but thats what riggers are for, no?

put a rigger, a cyborg or have it controlled by a drone with a person doing overwatch and order it about, then have the whole inside covered with biofiber.

ok cost and do not have to work around warding rules

arguable, doesn't the mage have to see the point where he wants his sight to be?

i.e. (perception + assensing) vs. (agility + infiltration) - that watcher spirit (2 dice) is never going to spot any halfway competant runner (who is aware of the possibility of astral patrols.) A real spirit or a mage has a fair chance however.

If you stop for a second to think about it, you will notice that clairevoyance does not make any sense at all if you have to see, what you want to see with that spell. You don't need to see what you already see, if you catch my drift.
Also read the spell description.

Yep, and when your buddy pops that spirit that feared you, you no longer have any compulsion not to return - in my experience fear is a way for a mage to trade off a couple passes (summon + order) against ONE of his target's. And a heavy pistol is all it takes to pop a force 4, you don't really need to use heavy ordinance against an engulfer.

It always comes down to who's prepared and who gets the jump.

I don't think so....


There's nothing in there that says they need to see the point of the clairvoyance, only that it must be within the range of the spell (Force x Magic in meters, Force x Magic x 10 for extended range Clairvoyance).

except that when you move the visual point behind a wll you lose line of effect.

Huh? That's the point ... clairvoyance can allow you to see through walls but only within the range of the spell.

Since when do you need line of effect to maintain a spell? And even if you did, the target of the spell is touch (generally the caster himself) and thus still in line-of-sight.

My mistake on that... yah it just adds to the dice pool... but they also don't throw force 14 spells... so it's not as big an issue. Force 8 caps at 8 hits... that's a 16p or 16s spell to resist if it's combat related... and generally more than enough.

( Magic 6 ) is offically as bad-ass in Fourth Edition as ( Magic 9 ) was in Third Edition, play with lower dicepools and stats and alot of your headaches will simply go away.

I really don't get this reasoning. According to U.S. census data doctors make up about 0.29% of the US population. That ratio, btw (while lower in underdeveloped countries) is HIGHER in almost all other industrialized nations. That means barring some change in the demographics there are 3 magicians to every doctor in SR!!

Now while some people in 2070 surely can't AFFORD to go to a doctor, and some might not have access to a doctor (SINless) the idea that NOBODY could possibly afford to hire one is ridiculous. Of coarse most people can't afford their own personal doctor, nor can a small group of 5-10 people (like, oh say... a runner group). The doctor needs to hire out his services to a few hundred people, or work for a company...

So the reality is if you want to compare magicians to doctors, I would argue that a small company has a GREATER probability of employing a mage than a runner team.

I’ve always been confused by the sort of example in the OP. Yes, it sucks when a mage or a mystic adept casts improved invisibility and runs around with a monosword slitting throats. But you know what? You can get exactly the same effect by putting on a chameleon/ruthenium polymer suit and running around slitting throats. And in fact, they’re actually cheaper by BP than a mage with improved invisibility, plus anyone can use one. Okay, so the sword isn’t invisible. Say it’s a knife that he just hides under the folds of his suit, because his suit is like a poncho or something.

I mean, come on. It’s not like street sams aren’t ever invisible because of gear.

Arsenal includes a weapon modification that works like the chameleon suit, so your monosword guy is good to go.

Awesome. I've been wishing for that forever!
I know what I'm spending my next in game paycheck on.

There is nothing to stop mages casting improved invisibility on their sammie chummers who are wielding mono-swords. You think the mage is bad? Think about his boosted buddies who are 'buffed' up by his spells...

anyone with the perception skill should be able to spot the invisible guy runnign around. unless he's overcasting, even then...none of it works against ultrasound/radar/echolocation/motion sensor anyway...so its not much of a problem
and considering he's got a PAN then you can just pinpoint him with that instead...

All in all the answer falls down to how you and your group plays. As a GM it is your duty to create a fun challenging run. If you ahve to bend teh rules a little to do so then do so as long as it is not a rediculous change. I tend to stray away from the players vs GM type stories and attempt to build scenes knowing what the party is bringing along, character and equipment wise. I try in all ways to make the encounter as challenging as possible without it being impossible. You ahve an invis mage running around cutting throats and one tossing magic like a madman, place them in a scenario where it will be very difficult on the finger waglers. SOmewhere with a high background or something thatis specifically making it difficult for magic. Remember the rule book is not absolute, at least for me, if you are the GM it is your world make it as fun and challenging for the players as possible.

Now a following the rule, really quick idea. Basically anyone that powerful would not be on a easy run. With magic being rare in the world you would understand that basic defenses will be in place. glomoss etc. Also most security teams have a magical threat specialist.

The story i am currently running consists of a team with a cyber, a physical adept, a street shaman, a burnt out mage, and a cyber face. In the encounters i noramlly attempt to ensure thre is oppisition for each player to handle. an example of this my groups first encounter in teh current story consisted of them, 2 flesh form soldier ants, the bug shaman himself, and two chromed out "security" (corp special forces assisting the bug shammie). Setting up the encounter this way i am attempting to provide opisition for each of the players to ahndle or oppisition that each of the players specilizes in. This way i dont ahve the mages doing all the work while the cybers and adept sit on thier thumbs.

Basically it is your role as the GM to create a fun and challenging game. if you have to bend the rules a little to make it a challenge then heck do so. And remember the npcs and oppisition to the cahracters are thinking people also. If lone star keeps sowing up and getting gacked by a invis dude they are going to start sending someone who can detect invis to assist as it is far more exspensive to retrain a new officer then to retain a experianced one and toss some magical defense at him.

First, Synner is kind of one of the Devs, so he kind of, you know, helped write the books, proofread, playtest, etc, them. So, disagreeing with him is saying "I am deciding to step away from the canon universe, what little of it there is for SR4."

Second, for military: My general thought has always been this: if you are former military/corpsec/whatever, that cyberware you have? The military/corp/whatever didn't put it in you. You bought it with your meager paycheck so you, yourself, could have a better chance at survival. The military just let you have permits, etc, for having it in you.

Third: Please remember that a starting, 400 BP character is NOT someone who has been running the Shadows for years. I would say they tend to be a few months in the shadows, hence why they have the limit of 12 on availability by the book. Non Standard Cyberware, BTW, would probably be Beta and Delta Grade Wares, and non-standard weapons would be things that are, by their nature, generally only used in a narrow area(like the Nitama Nemax pistol from Arsenal)

first they have to pass a willpower + counterspell vs net hits the mage got on the invis spell. Most corp security guards have 0 counter spell and at best 3 willpower.

magic is no more broken than any other aspect of the game. That being said, people will know how to deal with magic.
Stay out of los, scatter
havew people do counter spelling for you
GTMF
Really, most pf your magical effects can be replicated in a mundane way. Invisibilty can be done with massive skill in infiltration combined with chameleon suit. Stun ball can be done with neurostun gas etc. Often the magical stuff has more of a draw back, drain that can stun or kill you, fewwer dice because you are sustaining spells, and a higher cost of Karma to be as good at most things as mundanes. If you look at all their drawbacks, mages are harder to run than any other type except tm's

Actually in this case the "Synner" in question is someone else: "Synner667." I'm still just numeral-deprived me... I think... unless... nah.

Nope, they only have to beat the spell to be able to see them with their eyes, ultrasound works like a charm, and if the runner is dumb enough to have an active PAN then it will clearly shoe up on sensors as well, Invisibility ONLY affects vision, nothing else.

They have to pass Intuition+Counterspell

And once again, only to see the character with their eyes, all other senses are fair game.

scratch that, nevermind.


edit: one thing to note though: it's not resist vs. net hits, it's resist vs. (net hits or force, whichever is lower.) Keeps people form playing god with force 1 or 2 spells.

I believe he is actually refering to Synner667.

Edit: But of course you know that already now!

and thats one thing to keep in mind. you can never have more hits on the casting roll then the force of the spell, iirc. also, if a place is liberally studded with sanctuary liles, that spell is going to drop faster then a troll hit by a FA S&S attack.

Also, people only have to beat the spell's hits if they want it to have no effect. If the Invisible Killer has a force 4 spell up and I don't resist it, I take a -4 die pool penalty to my perception tests to visually sense him. Which means that if he rolls his Stealth+Agility and gets 2 hits, and I roll my Perception+Intuition(-4 Dice for Invisibility)+Relevant perception modifiers, such as cyberware and get 3 hits, I still know where he is reliably enough to make attacks on him.

Invisibility is a perception penalty producing spell, NOT "Immunity to Vision."

and thats because perception now is a catch all for all senses...

hell, as a skill its just as much about paying attention as it is about sharper senses.

as in, we see and hear a lot in a day, but how much of it do we really care about? perception is, imo, about thinking why a sound, smell or image appears, not just ignoring it if its not a threat or important to what your doing at the moment.

Nope. The spell makes one invisible, and if you don't beat the threshold (intuition+counterspelling), you simply cannot see the invisible person. He can be detected by other means though. Are you confusing this with the Concealment power? That's a perception penalty producing power - that's why it's called Concealment and not Invisibility.

Given that being unable to see people only assesses a vision penalty to perception rolls on targets (see smoke grenades, blind fire penalty, and perception rolls for hearing), then I think it's logical to assume to that the spell is not perfect "You don't get to roll, do not pass go" invisibility. Personally I assess the penalty as -4 to match the Chameleon Suit. -8 is logically the highest this penalty could be, given that this is the penalty for trying to shoot someone you can't see but know is around somewhere. There aren't any rules, strictly speaking, for how MUCH of a penalty to give, but this seems to be a good guideline IMO.

The other reason I think this is the way it is, is because it's a good benchmark for why higher force spells beat better (read: more complex) cameras. Lower force spells should be more 'blurry' and less clear.

Granted, this is all assuming your perception rolls are all visual-only. I think -8 is a bit high if you're using the perception roll to notice Mr. Invisible, given that he's making noise, disturbing air (and probably objects, if he's cutting people up) and generally interacting with the world. I'd raise the penalty if he was just sitting still, but moving?

This is doubly true if you're dealing with SR3, where the force is the vision penalty.

Well I'm not dealing with your house rules nor SR3 rules. There is nothing in the spell description about a vision penalty, it does say however that to see the target you need to beat the threshold, and the spellcasting test sets the threshold.

However this only applies to visual perception, so it is perfectly possible to hear, smell, feel or... ehm.. echolocate the target. A good stealth roll might be enough that you can't hear the target, but if you somehow notice where the target is, there is still the blind fire penalty. Which basically means mr. invisible can run around corpsec and slash them up, while they have next to no chance of hitting him as they will get the penalty the times they actually get to fire at him. For example, if you see your friend being slashed to bits I'd probably allow a blind fire attack against the attacker (no test necessary), otherwise you'd have to guess which direction the enemy is. With a critical success on a perception(hearing) test I'd probably allow the listerner to pinpoint the enemy enough for an attack (still at penalty).

...and healing can be covered with a high Logic + good skill in First Aid + a rating 6 medikit. And if you have Medicine skill then you can augment your patient's healing chances though extended care afterwards. Hmmmm, suddenly the Biotech group sounds very intriguing.

First Aid is secretly the most overpowered thing in the SR4 rules I've encountered so far, and my mages always have access to it one way or the other, since it is basically the great enabler that reinforces everything else they're capable of attempting.

perhaps I am missing something a chance elaboration would be appreciated.

First aid can heal stun damage

...tell me about it. I have a mundane with a First Aid DP of 20 (Logic 7, FirstAid skill 6, PuShEd +1, Medkit 6) For gunshot wounds her DP is 22. Granted she can only heal up a total of 6 boxes, but with that pool, the law of averages is in her favour. After that she also has Medicine 4 with a DP of 15 (Logic + Skill + Autodoc).

"...bah, who needs all that mumbo jumbo"
--Kat Marova

Having done some medical... that is to say, advanced first aid stuff... in my time, I am now picturing shadowrun mages walking the halls of the corporate targets trailing IV bags to keep their fluids/electrolytes up as they blast shit left right and center...

ah I see my mix up mister dork I naturally assumed that since mages can do things other than heal people he meant something other than...you know...healing people. since he obviously can't heal his own drain. what other use is it for?

A dicepool of 20?

Any one of my mages would basically worship the very ground she walked on.

Yeas, but it can do that from LOS. Like >300 meters away. It's hard to spot it and harder to shoot it. And if you do shoot at it it can move. It can keep at least two people fully occupied with running in terror. And if you summon a spirit of man, you can team up with it to cast force 4 mana balls at your enemies. You have it drop concealment on you and it, then on IP 2 it's highly likely it's black limos, hearses and slow music for the guys facing them.

Mages ARE betterr than mundanes, but in a stand up a strett sammie is the equal of a mage/shaman and even tougher on mundanes. The idea here is that we play above average adventures. it is gonig to be a real short career for osmeone if the team includes -rigger, face, wolf shaman, pizza delivery boy, decker, two street sammie's

The Deliverator. . .