And it's still not maxed-out, as the new Augmented Maximum is 10.

Genetic Optimization raises your natural maximum. That it does not say that you cannot use BP to increase the attribute, and remember that you only pay the 25 BP for the last point in maxing out the attribute...admittedly, it could end up being looked at as genetic optimization saving you 6 BP for what would normally be your maximum, but, still..nothing specifically EXCLUDES you from using BP.

I have to agree with Cardul about Genetic Optimization. It is mechanically the same as the Exceptional Attribute Quality, and can be utilized to the fullest at chargen (if so desired).

Actually, it has ONE difference from Exceptional Attribute: is specifically STACKS with Exceptional Attribute. Willpower 4, Natural Charisma 10 Elf Shaman....

Shrug. Which therefore means Exceptional Attribute specifically stacks with Genetic Optimization. Same thing.

You can't really max out most Physical Attributes to the enhanced maximum, mainly due to Availability limits. You can max out your Reaction with nothing but Wired Reflexes: 2, though - play a dwarf.

You can max out the Reaction for other races with the combination of base Reaction: 5, then move-by-wire: 1 and reaction enhancers: 2, but at the expense of only getting one extra initiative pass.

...it still can be a decoy.

Decker is a really old term nobody beside SR players knows anymore, while hacker is something almost every person can understand. Also, since there are no deck involved in hacking, the term became obsolete. Should have called them commlinker. HaHa.
Otaku is a deragatory japanese term. In western society it's only known and used by anime geeks to give themselfs a little Japan feeling. Although I understand why the term was chosen, it needed explanation to new gamers. The term technomancer on the other hand explains itself pretty fast.

So while decker/hacker can be dabated, the change from otaku to technomancer is definetly not pointless.

Come on, why did they have to call it SR4? It had been called SRx with x < 4 for all these years and suddenly, they pull out a SR4!

As for Otaku to TM, they are two different kinds of characters. If I'm not mistaken there still are some otakus in SR4.

There are former Otaku, but as far as I know there are none that still retain their former 'powers' as they were.

They lose their power at puberty and SR4 is set in 2070....
So yeah there is no more active otaku.

Only if puberty hits them in the mid-twenties. Since that's the time when they tend to fade.

Hey, some of us are late bloomer!
Don't judge me on my fading :<

It's been literally decades since insects were involved in computing, but the term "bug" stays in common parlance.

??

His point was about communicating an idea to new players, not about whether or not "decker" would still be occasionally used (which it is, even in the "official" stuff) in the SR4 timeline.

The SR4 chargen rules specifically limit you to one skill at 6 (capped), or two skills at 5 ("near capped"), and the rest 4 or less. (Maybe that belongs in the "obscure rules" thread....) So, one at cap, or two skills close to cap. (I don't recall off-hand how the Aptitude quality affects this.)



The descriptive text for Synaptic Enhancers explicitly states that they are not compatible with any other form of reaction enhancement.

DS

The descriptive text for Synaptic Boosters only states explicitly that the things are incompatible with other initiative boosting 'ware, and as far as I know, the jury is still out in force on whether that is supposed to implicitly mean that, since Reaction Enhancers indirectly affect Initiative, that also rules them out...

His point was that because decks weren't involved anymore, the term "Decker" is obsolete. Vacuum tubes are obsolete, but "bug" stays in use, decades into a totally new technology. Just because cyberdecks were reworked into commlinks, that doesn't mean that thirty+ years of terminology is going to go away overnight.

And you just wanted to express that you don't like SR4.

You're the only person saying characters wouldn't know what a decker is.

And what does using a *gasp* real-life, well-known term in most of the text take away from the game that handing someone a block of faux-history text (after which they ask "why didn't you just say hacker?") doesn't?

Sorry to break it to you, but the deck part was a joke.


I actually had the "new players" angle in mind.

As Naysayer stated, it is Initiative Enhancement, not Reaction Enhancement that is barred. Reaction Enhancers affect Reaction, which only indirectly affects Initiative.

"Hacker? Oh, you mean like a scriptkiddie?"
"Well, no, not really..."
"Or like the Geek Squad? They fixed my computer without knowing the password."
"Sort of, but..."
"Oh, I get it! You mean like Angelina Jolie in that movie! Man, she was hot!"
"Kinda, but..."

Get my point?

"Hacker" is such a vauge, undefined term that the more flavorful term of "Decker" is actually easier to get across. It's also truer to the Shadowrun world, carries with it the weight of pseudohistory, and generally brings across the essence of Shadowrun much better than "hacker" does.


I actually challenge you to quote me as using those words. It's not that I don't like SR4, it's that you can't criticize it without a hundred screaming SR4 fans crying: "Infidel!" when pointing out large, unfixable holes in their holy writ.

Be that as it may, what with it being personal preference and all, but, especially for a new player, it is also a flavorful term that doesn't really describe what that "class" does because it is no longer reffering to the equipment being used.
An SR4 Hacker does not use a cyberdeck, he doens't deckanything. And, unlike with your "bug", you cannot expect a new player to be familiar with the term simply from his cultural background...

Oh, and also: Infidel!!!

Yes, you're beeing stubborn. I like that. Will increase the page count of this thread ad infinitum.

Where I come from most people don't know how to operate a mouse, but most of them still associate the term hacker with cybercrime thanks to the media. The term decker will get a reaction towards Yu-Gi-Oh at best.

The term "Matrix Specialist" is nice, but a little too long.
And let's not think about creating a world like matrixer, it's just too ugly...

Then why are Reaction Enhancers explicitly "compatible with other Initiative-boosters", when they only boost Reaction directly?

DS

Poor wording?

Ironically, reaction enhancers are specifically allowed with move-by-wire systems, the one initiative enhancement least likely to need them (since they already improve Reaction by two points per level).

The only thing specifically disallowed for use with Reaction Enhancers is Wired Reflexes, and that only in the SR4 FAQ.

Hating the system for the math

Hating the system without even having read the book

General Hating before the rules are even released

Beyond the exact quotes, I'd say that your overall negative view of the system has caused a lot of people to immediately believe that you would rabidly destroy the system given a chance.

Re: Hackers - I think the definition of a Hacker makes their purpose fairly obvious whereas the definition of Decker has absolutely nothing to do with the context we are looking for.

Cain, as much as you seem to dislike [Insert Current Owner of SR Rights here]'s switch from Decker and Otaku to Hacker and Technomancer, I feel that they work just fine.

Decker's were deckers because of what they used, not what they did. Deckers hacked. There are a million other ways to say that exact same phrase, but hacking is something that can be commonly associated with Cybercrime, specifically with illegal access and digital data theft. If we were to correctly move Decker to the new setting, I think we'd all be called "Linkers", which isn't that bad, but fails to bring fear into the hearts of salarymen the world over.

Otaku also is a dated term. Not because it isn't good to describe nerds, but because it fails to describe an almost non-existent tribal community of children worshiping AI. Technomancer just has a nice ring to it. It sounds all cyberpunky! Although Im still in disgust with the rules involving said group, the name fits. They are no longer weird little kids doing things no one understands, they are a bunch of normal people that have developed strange Virtuakinetic abilities.

I dont care whether you hate SR4 or not, but shit happens and things change, live with it.

Bah! As far as I'm concerned there will always be Deckers.

However I wish that instead of calling the new Otaku Technomancers they were called Virtuakinetics in Fourth Edition Core with Technomancer being introduced as a slang term later on.

Preemptive strike! Bwah!

Seriously, knock off the baiting and sniping before we have to start handing out ...cookies. Yeah, cookies. Burnt ones.

Me no like burned cookie.

Bishop, you win the Archivist award of the day.

And, having handed out the award, I'll just agree with Malicant here about burned cookies.

In addition to the out-of-context quotes (Which, incidentally, still don't even come close to saying what you claim I said) that's just another cry of "Infidel!" in more polite language. It is possible to have a negative view of something without resorting to Iraq-style violence. But, as you've shown, it's impossible to someone to hold an overall negative view of the system without causing "a lot of people to immediately believe [one] would rabidly destroy the system given a chance", and then close their minds to all the constructive criticism that the system sorely requires.

Another fast-answered-question, effectivly inversing the state-of-compatibility from Cybertechnology. Back then, only Adrenal Glands and MBW were not kosher.

No, it is not at all impossible for someone to hold that view without causing that problem. Many people, some of them even other Dumpshock regulars, hold that view. The thing is though, that you seem to delight in taking every opportunity to ram that view down our throats. In most other areas of discussion, you can be quite intelligent, imaginative, and even helpful. But when even the slightest opportunity appears, you cannot resist the temptation and seem to shift personas, once again launching another salvo in what is becoming perceived to be a drawn-out, private war between Cain and SR4. This is then aggravated by your tendency to get very defensive when people respond with either 'I don't care' or 'I like that feature'.

I don't really care what people like or dislike, I just like to argue. A little bait here, a little flame there. But I don't like burned cookies, so I stop after a mod has thrown a stern glance on the thread in question.

I agree with Malicant. I like to argue, and while I don't like to flame or bait people, I do like a good solid debate. What's more, debates over the solidness of the SR4 system seem to be rather popular, if the Game Level thread was any indication. For some reason, mentioning that you can one-shot a Citymaster seems to really get people up in arms. However, in my defense, I'll point out that I don't get into these sort of things without being asked or the point being raised by someone else.

So, speaking as politely and without singling out anyone, I'll point out (yet again, and at someone else's request) that SR4 is a flawed system with many areas, IMO, that could have been better resolved if proper beta-testing had been applied in the first place. The Shot Heard Round the Barrens and the infamous Citymaster are two of the most extreme examples.

Few people would argue with that, or even really could, since it is, as you say, your opinion.



Have been debated to death, and neither you nor their respective opponents will be budging from your or their own interpretations of the rules any time soon. I really would like to have a dedicated thread for each of those, so that posts debating them will actually not derail the numerous other threads the examples have popped up in, or will in the future.

Wait, what about the cookies? Where can I get them? Soooooooo hungy.......................

SR4 might be (i.e. is) flawed. But I like it way better than the previous versions, so I go along, put on a happy face and hack and slash at any rule that doesn't seem to work as intended, or at any player that tries to abuse such a less-then-well-working rule.

I'm not saying that SR4 doesn't have its good points. I am saying, however, that the problems with it run deeper than what a little pruning can handle, and in fact requires major surgery at the level of the core mechanic.

See, I don't think there's really a problem with the core mechanic; if anything, I'd say the things start getting iffy when the game strays from the core mechanic with little clarification. Example: the Matrix when it switches to Skill+Program, devaluing hacker attributes and leaving questions about defaulting largely unanswered.

The problems with the core mechanic includes the fact that you can pile on the penalties for greater and greater effect, without affecting your chances of success. Additionally, the Longshot test encourages over-the-top cinematics, while the stated intention of the rules encourages PC death and gritty realism. They finally got around to fixing the Teamwork test, but they still have issues with cooperative tests. Also, there's the fact that it's basically been admitted by Rob Boyle that it's a d6 nWoD.

There's quite a few issues baked into the core mechanic that need to be examined. And that need to be fixed at that level.

Personally, I would house rule that Reaction Enhancers can work with both Wired Reflexes and Synaptic Boosters. By the book, though, it is another story.

First, the description for Reaction Enhancers:


Then, the description for Wired Reflexes:


Then, the desciption for Synaptic Boosters:



So, purely by RAW, Reaction Enhancers cannot be used with Wired Reflexes or Synaptic Boosters. What causes this problem is the description of Reaction Enhancers, where the term "other Initiative-boosters" implies that, despite only improving initiative by increasing the Reaction component of it, the Reaction Enhancer is considered an initiative enhancement.

But part of the reason I would house rule it is that it may merely be incredibly clumsy wording. I mean, what is the point of saying that it is "compatible with other Initiative-boosters", if you are going to turn around and say that it won't work with, basically, the only other two 'ware initiative boosters there?

The Core mechanic is what I think is the saving grace of the whole system. My group tried going back to SR3 after having played SR4 for only a short while, and we just didnt like it as much. Variable TN's, while once quite nice, I just cant get into any longer. The problem is that if the TN is above 7, and espcially above 13, youre just boned. You better have one fucking god of a dice pool cause you are gonna NEED those 6's, and a LOT of em. What SR3 really had going for it was a very thorough testing of the rules all the way through. They knew where there were issues and they patched them up. I really do not remember there being hardly any problems with absurdly powerful characters out of the box. It is true that SR4 is lacking in this awesome rules lawyering and loophole fixing, not to mention that they have (I believe) yet to release a modified PDF containing their Errata and fixes. The absurd amount of typos and editing mistakes is just absurd compared to previous editions. I know they are running a business here, and they have done more than almost any other company (which company is it again?) to be transparent with their consumers (us), but they need to use what they have here and produce a better working product. Not everything should fall withing the GM's responsibility. They need to debug their code and present it in a way that we dont have to houserule half the shit they missed.

Show some trust in us!


Edge is a serious issue, and Knasser has already fixed this, please read his Rules.

And BTW, while I really dont care for the Vampires world, if Shadowrun has this wonderful system because of it, we should truly be thanking them.

HA! Fragging HA!

Are you aware of the fact that the original WoD Storyteller system was derived almost entirely from Shadowrun mechanics? Mark Rein*Hagen and several of his team members were, IIRC, on the playtest team of Shadowrun. White Wolf owes a great deal of its success to Tom Dowd and Jordan Wiseman. *They* should be thanking *us*, not the other way around.

And now, instead of being an innovative force that helped shape an industry, Shadowrun is reduced to slavish imitation, if not near-plagarism, in an attempt to gain market share. How the mighty have fallen.

SR4 system is much younger than SR1-3 system, so it's no wonder it hasn't been tested as much. But even after all these years of testing, SR3 system was still flawed in a lot of different ways. Still, I found it easier to house-rule the issues in SR4 than in SR3. Due to the complexity of SR3 rules, it was harder to house-rule something without breaking something else, needing to house rule other cases, or creating yet another special case. I guess that's why we tend to see much more SR4 houserules.

But there's also the problem of interpretation. I've seen a lot of debates going around here that were totally pointless and stupid. They went like this:
"If you apply rule A this way, the system doesn't make any sense, it's totally broken"
- If you apply it that other way, you don't have that problem, maybe it's intended, or at least better, to interpret it this way?
- No, the system is totally, utterly broken [depending on the poster, you can here insert a link to a whole new system or a long rant about how broken and stupid SR4 is]."
[Insert 0.5 page of debate, 1 of flaming and 3 of derail]

It's also strange how some posters seem to strictly follow the letter of the rules blindly without applying any common sense, except for that part which says that rules are guidelines and the GM should feel free to twist them when they don't make any sense.