The wording of p. 191-192 is clear. One paragraph deals with physical combat, including astrally perceiving characters, the other with astrally projecting characters. So, Frank's right.

Any other interpretation runs counter to logic, and systematic.

The reason there's no paragraph expressly dealing with non-astrally perceiving or projecting characters attacking purely astral entities is because it can't happen.

Well, as demonstrated, it can.
Sure, it's unlikely and difficult...

If they were not astrally perceiving and not dual natured, they would have no need to attack purely astral entities because they are not in danger of being attacked by them.

The issue is with dual natured (thus always astrally perceiving) beings who can see what's attacking them but can do nothing about it.. unless you count their natural attacks as weapon focus for purposes of being able to hit spirits as per 193, allowing them to roll with physical attributes)

The Critters book already says:



and



edit: added Critter quotes

That's just because the critters as stated lack the Astral Combat skill. If you want them to attack something in the astral in your game, give it to them and the problem's solved.

What I really want to disabuse is Frank's idea of trying to stab blindly at an astral being with an active weapon focus.

Much easier (and much more logical) to let people and critters that use their bodies to attack something use their physical skills to attack something as well, no matter if they happen to be astrally perceiving or not. I can't really see why anyone would assume an adept or dual natured critter would not hit/bite an astrally projecting foe any differently than he'd hit a physically present foe. They are limited by their bodies still, so they should use physical skills.

Because an adept who is not astrally perceiving is not astrally active. He casts an aura on the astral plane of course, but he does not become an astral form until he astrally perceives. The only thing that can collide with an astral form is an astral form. A dual natured being is astrally active though, and I agree should be able to do as you say. But an adept should only be able to if he is astrally perceiving IMO. If he wasn't, his fists would go clean through the astral form. A weapon focus seems like it would hit (since it is astrally active even if the adept is currently not) but the sentence below seems to imply otherwise.

page 182

1. The Focus is Dual Natured. The spirit can attack the focus.
2. Closing your eyes and attacking blindly is entirely legitimate as a tactic in physical and astral combat. You suffer a -6 penalty to your attack pool.
3. You aren't in this case attacking completely blindly, as the light outline has clearly delineated exactly where your target is and is not.

This is exactly like FAB. And that in turn is pretty much the same as the example of attacking an astral being with a physical weapon focus while you personally are astrally perceiving. Your sword is astrally perceiving whether you personally are or not. If you happen to get an analog to the information that astral perception would have granted you, that's very much more like astrally perceiving yourself than it is like astrally projecting and hitting the target with the spirit form of your sword.

And in the case where you are active on the physical plane and swinging a weapon focus at a completely astral spirit, you roll Agility + Blades + Weapon Force; as depicted explicitly in the description of the weapon focus.

-Frank

I meant an astrally perceiving adept - I am arguing that it makes no sense to require dual-natured beings use astral combat skill and not physical combat skill if they hit with their fists/claws at astrally projecting foes.

Then I agree completely with your argument.



Except for one main difference, when using a Lucifer Lamp you do not become astrally active (whereas using astral perception you do)

Because both the spirit and the focus are on the same plane; the focus, however, had no intelligence and cannot attack on its lonesome.


On the physical, yes. In the astral you can't "close your eyes" because you're not actually using your eyes to perceive. At best you can have an equivalent modifier because of local conditions, but the difference is an astrally perceiving or projecting character is still on the same plane.




Uh, no. What the hell are you getting at here? FAB might be dual natured, but it doesn't go for you-except for FAB-III, and that still only goes for astral or dual-natured targets, and not with a traditional attack. A focus does not astrally perceive, it's just a dual-natured construct.


I disagree. The description of the weapon focus is clearly only applying to its use in physical attacks against a physical target in that instance. You use Blades skill, then you're attacking the air, not the spirit that might co-exist in that spot on the astral, maybe, which you have no way of knowing because you're not astrally perceiving at the time.

Adepts I don't think should be able to hit with their normal attacks, unless its weapon foci. Its the dual nature critters normal form that is in both plains. Astrally perceiving shouldn't be enough to negate astral combat. Since an adept isn't fully a dual-nature critter, they should still use their will to attack, unless they have a foci which is dual natured.

So, Astrally illuminated provides target.
Weapon Foci can attack using physical stats
Adept can attack using Astral Combat
Dual Natured Critter can attack using physical stats
Magician can attack using Non-Physical Spells

Thats my breakdown...

I think we all agree that it is clearly not clear in the RAW.
If we change the discussion to say mages and spells. There is clearly stated that mages cannot cast spells across planes. An astral mage cannot cast to a physical target unless that physical target is also astrally active (perceiving/ dual natured) The same is true the other way, mana spells cannot target manifested mages (physical to astral) unless the casting mage also is perceiving making him dual natured for the time.

The few exceptions are Wards, Lodges and spells such as Mana Barrier. Now the real difference between Mana Barrier and Mana Ball/ Bolt is the damaging nature of the spell itself.

A mage could not from physical cast a Mana Ball in an area that he can see clear shadows from a Lucifer Lamp and hit those targets. He can cast but there is nothing to be hit.

However, the same mage can cast a Mana Barrier between over or around the shadow, thus trapping the spirit in a location in the astral plane cast from the physical plane. (iirc it can be cast as a dome or sphere ala cage)

So it seems the unspoken/ unwritten word is that Damaging effects cannot cross planes without the wielder or caster also being present on that plane. Perceiving, dual natured...

Where as non Damaging effects can be cast across planes, ala Mana Barrier

So in the case of FAB or the Lucifer Lamp they only permit a 'glimpse' of the astral forms and an indirect oen at that.

The only problem with that statement is that astrally perceiving adepts are by definition considered dual natured. (pg 182)

--It is defined as dual-natured, but I see it as less dual-natured than the critter. The critter doesn't suffer the penalties for viewing both worlds at the same time, so there's already precedence of them being a different type of dual natured than adepts.

Hmmm... Ok with that thought that its seen and not there. It would be quite similar to a spirit or a mage manifesting (not materializing).

So with that thought in mind and not wanting adepts to attack manifested spirits/mages with their weapon foci (I use this often to threaten runners, or to give them warning, before the hammer comes down). For the purpose of the lamp, I'm jumping over and saying that you can't attack something illuminated by the lamp. But the dual-natured should still be able to tear everything apart using physical stats. The adept will have to astrally perceive in order to attack the illuminated/manifested being.

I hate jumping sides, but allowing them to hit the illuminated ruins one of my tricks with magic...

Are you 100% sure you can do that with a mana barrier? Or does a mana barrier cast on the physical plane just protect against manifesting spirits and spells cast on the physical plane?

Moon-hawk:
Not with my book(s) right now, the quick reread I did this morning under Mana Barriers lead me to that.

I believe it said that a Mana Barrier spell does not affect the physical world, but is a barrier to astral forms. Whether cast on the physical or Astral.

Will someone with the book at hand quote it?
(described under Mana Barriers section)

Slightly confusing. It says cast on the physical plane it restricts "spirits", but that could mean manifested spirits since a spirit in it's natural form is an "astral form" (which it impedes when cast on the astral).

What would be different about an unmaterialized spirit versus say.. a projecting mage? Why would it only block the spirit and not the mage's astral form?

I was just going to say the same thing. Between the section on Mana Barriers and the spell decription for Mana Barrier, it does say that Mana Barrier cast on the physical plane blocks spirits. One could take that to mean all spirits, or only spirits on the physical plane, i.e. materialized spirits. I'm pretty darn sure that it is intending to refer only to spirits on the physical plane, because of the line "If cast on the astral plane, it also impedes astral forms..." which makes it pretty darn clear to me that if it's cast on the physical plane it does NOT impede astral forms, such as unmaterialized spirits.

Yes, this means that your mage can only capture a spirit with a mana barrier if he astrally perceives or projects and casts it on the astral plane. It also means that the attacking spirit can completely bypass a Mana Barrier cast on the physical plane simply by dematerializing, moving past it, and rematerializing. But I'm okay with that, capturing a spirit is essentially an attack, and the mage should have to make himself vulnerable to the astral to pull it off.

So in summary, it looks to me that although Mana Barrier (the spell) can be cast on the physical OR the astral, it is not a dual-natured barrier. (like a ward, lodge, etc) This means that the creation of dual-natured wards remains (so far) outside the limits of Sorcery. You can't make one with a spell. But at least that keeps spellcasting consistent.

edited: formatting, aka block of text of doom!

I can see that and will definately concede that point.

The rest of the arguement stands though.






(as far as the spirit dematerializing/ rematerializing)

As GM what would you do with a spirit that has a kill order and the target drops a mana barrier.

Materialize, Mana Barrier Spell, Dematerialize, Rematerialize, *SMACK*
or
Materialize, Mana Barrier Spell, Attempt a Beatdown of the barrier, then kill the target?