As to my little sub-thread about cyborgs lacking an autopilot, I realized an Agent with a Control program could do it, so never mind.

heh, this made me think of the gits:sac episode where the major is surfing while driving

Bring it, show me how you chop shop your Bum with cyber (and bio and wathever strikes your fancy), so he has an Agility of around 12, remaining attributes around 6+, 4 IPs, active Sensor targeting, immunity to mana based spells and stun damage and double digit hardened armor.

Also, it's funny that the process you describe megas could do to get something akin to cyborgs, but cheaper is exactly what they do to get cyborgs. So that argument is utterly moot.

did you read my post, or just make one up yourself?

my point is that using the exact same methodology, the corp can save a lot of money by using the 'cyborg lite' instead of the full-blown cyborg. so, in other words, the fact that my version does *exactly* the same thing as the corp does, and ends up with *exactly* the same setup as what the corp has, with the *exact* same numbers as what the corp is gonna pull off... only if they wanted, they could beef up the rigger *more* (attention coprocessors, for example, or who knows how many other things)... is exactly the point. synner says cyborgs are worthwhile because they're small enough to put into a drone, i say they aren't because any drone that can hold a CCU can also hold a CCU-shaped container with a rigger inside who's had anything he doesn't absolutely need chopped out of his body and sold on the black market.

my point is that cyborgs are not cost-effective. they're not competitive with a regular rigger from a shadowrunner perspective, and they're not competitive with a regular rigger from a corporate perspective. they aren't competitive at all, in any way, shape, or form. they're an overpriced version of something that already exists. they only make sense as a prototype... they should be the *objective* of a run, not an obstacle that must be overcome for the run to succeed.

Proof or it did not happen.

Show me how they do it and how much cheaper it is. Funny, that is exactly what I said before. Did you read my post?

btw, have you been reading your own posts lately? Seriously, 150% WIN!


FYI, the CCU is a CCU shaped container with a rigger inside.

i *did* show you how they did it and how much cheaper it is. i separated out all the individual pieces of 'ware that are duplicated by the CCU/cyborg adaptation combo. i figured out how much it would cost to install into a person. it is 187,000 and 2.9 essence. if you remove one (completely unimpressive) piece of 'ware, it costs 97,000 and 2.3 essence. heck, if we *really* want to cut costs, we can use second-hand 'ware, and it costs about 50k* while still leaving plenty of essence to mod up our theoretical SINless bum with.

*(about 140k if we keep the damage compensators for some incomprehensible reason... someone who doesn't care about the employee's life would just use a stim patch/nitro and put a medkit in there somewhere though)

so for 1/5 the cost in money, and about 1/2 the cost in essence, my rigger is pretty danged near identical to your cyborg, for all intents and purposes. and heck, since we're talking second-hand 'ware now, that cost is all recoverable (whereas a CCU being deltaware is only useful for the one individual for whom it was designed, and takes up too much essence to be able to install second-hand anyways).

so anyone who can afford 1 cyborg can afford 5 of my SINless bums who've been brainwashed with psychotropic IC and installed with second-hand 'ware. maybe throw in a little bit of extra 'ware to make them even more useful (like an auto-injector with a couple doses of nitro or long haul for those times when it would come in handy).

[edit] and actually, the CCU is not a CCU-shaped container with a rigger inside. if it was, it wouldn't cost that much, and it wouldn't take that much essence. it includes a bunch of random 'ware that does something really weird to the rigger, leaving them at a point where you can't really mod them anymore.

also, on a side note, you could shave off a little bit more (both essence and cash) for my theoretical SINless bum by taking certain implanted items and not implanting them (for example, a hotsim module is 5,000 implanted or 250 external, and an implanted commlink costs an extra 2k to have implanted) [/edit]

I keep asking, you keep delivering.

Your rigger is damn impressive, just one thing, he's still a rigger. With a body. If you chop of his body, he's dead. Cheap dead riggers are kind of a waste of time.

The second part is even more fun. The CCU is a CCU shaped container with a rigger inside. And it costs exactly as much, because it costs exactly as much. The 500k is not for the hardware, it's for the whole package/procedure. Fun, isn't it?

FYI, the brain has exactly no single implant. Not even one. All are removed. So, basically, every techthingy inside the CCU is an external version. The brain is just connected to it. Have you even read the Cyborg section in Augmentation?

I have at least one shocking revelation about the CCU left, but you have to be patient.

he'd be alive. probably not happy before you hit him with some P-fix BTLs, but alive. you can most certainly remove someone's arms and legs without killing them, it's just that (surprise surprise) not many people opt to have someone chop off their arms and legs without getting replacements. but once you program mr. rigger, he's much happier living inside of a container eating all his food through a straw. doesn't bother him in the slightest. certainly happier than mr goingtogoinsaneinafewmonths cyborg.


first off, a CCU costs 250k, not 500k. (and the cyborg adaptation vehicle mod costs 15k, so i'm still not sure where you get 500k) secondly, it doesn't cost the same amount, because cyberware already has installation cost factored into it (which oddly doesn't get you a discount should a friend choose to do it for you... ah well, that's what happens when you simplify things) and even if it didn't, being as how the installation for my rigger can be done in a clinic that can't even handle alphaware but the CCU requires a delta clinic and all the expenses (such as top-rated doctors) that go with it., the installation for the rigger is still gonna be a crudload cheaper. might not even rate having a real doctor there.



not relevant. like i said, i looked at all the augmentations that the CCU duplicates (wether it's from implanted 'ware or not is completely irrelevant, since it functions *exactly* the same either way). i added up the cost for a player to buy all of that 'ware (and have it installed). if the rigger has all of the same effects but paid a mere fraction of the cost, then whoever paid for the rigger is going to be laughing at whoever paid for the cyborg.


please, do tell. it would be nice to see something that justifies 3 points of essence and the 200k (or thereabouts) that the cyborg costs beyond the price of getting all the same toys as el cheapo the rigger gets. don't get me wrong, conceptually i really like cyborgs. but i simply can't justify playing one from the perspective of min/maxing. and i can't even justify the corps using them. researching them, absolutely, but not using them. it's like burning a big pile of money every time you build one for purposes other than research. even megacorps are going to think twice before blowing 200k for no good reason. in fact, that is especially true of the megas... they exist solely for the purpose of generating money. if they can cut their expenses by 80% and not impact performance, believe me, they would do it without hesitation.

I knew this would be fun. So, how does a torso fit into a space the size of a football? The head cannot survive without lifesupport and the torsoguy is to big. Your math is flawed.


The 500k was a diffrent board with similar topic, the figure just stuck in my head. Honest mistake.
Anyway. CCU is not cyberware. Augmentation states the cost is for the whole procedure.[edit] I might be misremembering this part, though. Not quite sure right now.[/edit]
Oh, yeah, also, you don't get the discount when a friend does make it for you, since he is still a delta grade surgeon, with delta grade equipment in a delta grade facility and delta grade staff. Nice try though.
So, your rigger is still either dead or just a cripple too big to squeeze into a child sizes assassin drone (which is smaller than him, oddly enough).

How is that not relevent, since it supportet your train of though, no matter how derailed it might be.


YAY! last shocking revelation! At least until I come up with something new.

FYI the CCU is at it's core just a live support system. This considered it's hillariously cheap.


This one is just so funny. Espacially, since you fail to deliver proof, how your crippled/dead rigger has the same performace as a cyborg.

Since you already start to repeat youself while ignoring simple facts (even those that support your theory), I don't expect there is much more to feed on in this thread. Well, I might still get a snack.

how is the fact that the CCU is not 'ware relevant then? what makes it important? if it functions in a manner that is identical to several pieces of 'ware, then it remains a completely valid comparison if we set it next to those same pieces of 'ware and compare costs and capability.

as far as the size of the human thing, you're probably right that it's going to be a bit bigger than a CCU if we use a full-sized human. on the other hand, if we use a young enough child, or someone who's physical growth has been deliberately stunted from the time when they were a very young child, you end up with the same thing. except that instead of paying for an incredibly expensive life-support system, you can instead just use a completely natural life-support system (namely, the human body). heck, if you really truly don't care, you could stun their growth (physically) from an extremely young age and the whole body could fit inside a CCU container (although frankly, that would probably lead to even worse PR than using SINless children would if anyone found out).

even if you don't get quite small enough to fit a human torso into the same space as a CCU, the CCU only takes up 1 slot. even if it takes up 2 or 3 slots (though as i said, with sufficiently unscrupulous entities... ie the megacorps... you can just use very young children to get the same effect)

The big advantage of the brain-in-a-jar system is lowering rigger training times.
Lets say you have a baby and you want him to drive a car. He first has to learn to crawl and then to walk and to talk. All of this groundwork takes years and by then he's out of the phase of brain development where he can learn these complex things easily. Teaching him to drives takes months beyond that. But, lets say that you cut the kid's brain out and put it into a car. He'll never learn to crawl or to walk or to run or to talk or to use a toilet. But he will learn to drive. He'll be driving before most kids are potty trained.

You, sir need a vacation back on planet earth. I don't know what kind of people you are around all night and maybe day, but a CCU is the size of an infant. No mater how much you drug-shrink people or how much you cut away from small people, they will be bigger than that. Well, unless you don't need them alive, that is.
And if you continue the "baby" train of thought, don't. A not yet developed brain is useless in this process, since the point is to have a drone with the mental capabilities of a normal human being. As the brain develops, it grows, needs space and soon we are back to square one, where the only option is the CCU. Unless you start ignoring simple facts and start talking about cutting stuff, and squeezing people and whatever.

Also, the CCU as life support is not incredibly expensive. It's dirt cheap.

a CCU is about 50 cm long by about 30 cm diameter iirc.

that's about 20 inches long and 12 in diameter. if you surgically remove the limbs from a young child, that's plenty of room. it's a horrible, sick, twisted thing to do. but it would work.

and considering that augmentation specifically mentions that the brains from a young child make a good choice for a cyborg (or at least, a better choice than adult brains), it should work just fine for the limbless rigger.

And don't forget life-support for a brain is way lighter than for a whole human.
Some oxygen and specialized nutrient (proteins, sugar and stuff) and you're all good to go.
So it wouldn't take so much space either...

What kind of child is this? We don't have that kind around here. Also, you keep ignoring simple reality, like, the brain grows. If it doesn't, higher functions are not developed, without higher functions... useless. So, now, show me a human with a adult head, still enough torso to support it's life and both being small enough to fit into a shoebox. Yeah, thought so.

Don't bring the fight on a stage you don't know about, gringo.

cyborgs explicitly use children's brains. it's canon. whether or not they need a brain with full human adult capacity has already been answered, and the answer is no. and even if they do, a cerebral booster can handle that, and it'll still be a crudload cheaper than a full cyborg.

from the moment a child is able to walk on its own, its able to kill given the right tools. just look at the use of child soldiers in african conflicts...

hell, you dont really want a solider to think, but instead to work with the instincts found in the more basic parts of his brain.

didnt they swap from circular targets to human shaped targets to make them do the instinctual connection of human shape, aim at center mass of shape and pull the trigger?

thats one reason for why soldiers should not be used as police, different instincts/reflexes trained.

yet, at the same time the human brain has a inate ability to think creatively. like figuring out that a square peg do not fit inside a round hole, rather then keep trying...

The real point of the brain-in-a-jar process is not to replace riggers but to create a drone with metahuman level decision making processes, though the original intent of the process was to create a metahuman with superior matrix abilities.