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Grinder
QUOTE (Critias @ Feb 24 2008, 07:07 PM) *
Yes, there are. And often "amateur league" is exactly what they're called.


Movies and TV flicks gave me another impression. Curse them, curse them! grinbig.gif
Wesley Street
I am white but I'm not a nerd. I suck at math unless I use a calculator. I work out every day so I'm not pudgy either. My girlfriend and I are both artists and geeks (in the Battlestar Galactica-watching, comic book collecting sense) and we play SR together with the group that I GM. We both have D&D experience. Our group is made up of four men and four women. One of my players met his wife playing D&D and they're both good looking people. I don't particularly like hanging out with sexless, tactless, dandruffy weirdos who nitpick rules rather than go with the flow or insist that Wolverine could totally beat up Lobo so they're not allowed to play with me. SO THERE! nyahnyah.gif
Rajaat99
QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Feb 25 2008, 06:09 PM) *
I am white but I'm not a nerd. I suck at math unless I use a calculator. I work out every day so I'm not pudgy either. My girlfriend and I are both artists and geeks (in the Battlestar Galactica-watching, comic book collecting sense) and we play SR together with the group that I GM. We both have D&D experience. Our group is made up of four men and four women. One of my players met his wife playing D&D and they're both good looking people. I don't particularly like hanging out with sexless, tactless, dandruffy weirdos who nitpick rules rather than go with the flow or insist that Wolverine could totally beat up Lobo so they're not allowed to play with me. SO THERE! nyahnyah.gif


What are talking about.... Wolverine could NOT beat up Lobo.
apollo124
QUOTE (DocTaotsu @ Feb 24 2008, 08:41 AM) *
Agh! Creepy shipboard geeks! God tell me you weren't an MM or a boiler guy... They make all those Jack Chick tracts about people going into the sewers (shaft alley, fuel pump rooms, etc) and killing each other true!

Well not really, but we never did get a game together aboard ship, a pity too.


No! Of course I wasn't a MM or Boiler Tech. No way! I was an Electrician's Mate, thank you very much. On the ship I was on, there was only one other engineering type into RPG's,(and he was way out there. All the others were Boatswain's Mates and Sonar Tech's. I never hung out with the engineering crowd much. None of us engineers even killed each other either. The closest we ever got was when me and my buddy would play "I could take over the ship with X number of guys".
Grinder
QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Feb 25 2008, 07:09 PM) *
I don't particularly like hanging out with sexless, tactless, dandruffy weirdos who nitpick rules rather than go with the flow or insist that Wolverine could totally beat up Lobo so they're not allowed to play with me. SO THERE! nyahnyah.gif


So true. It always amazes me how people could game or hang out with such jerks.
DocTaotsu
QUOTE (apollo124 @ Feb 26 2008, 01:53 AM) *
No! Of course I wasn't a MM or Boiler Tech. No way! I was an Electrician's Mate, thank you very much. On the ship I was on, there was only one other engineering type into RPG's,(and he was way out there. All the others were Boatswain's Mates and Sonar Tech's. I never hung out with the engineering crowd much. None of us engineers even killed each other either. The closest we ever got was when me and my buddy would play "I could take over the ship with X number of guys".


BM's and ST's together at last? That's a combo I never saw coming wink.gif What did you guys play? Just Shadowrun?
Wesley Street
QUOTE (Rajaat99 @ Feb 25 2008, 09:52 PM) *
What are talking about.... Wolverine could NOT beat up Lobo.


I KNOW! Lobo would pull his head off! But tell that to the people who voted in the Marvel vs. DC/Amalgam comics polls back in 1995-1996. Yargh!
Wesley Street
QUOTE (Grinder @ Feb 26 2008, 03:58 AM) *
So true. It always amazes me how people could game or hang out with such jerks.


Sometimes you take who you can get when you're trying to get a Shadowrun group going. Geek hobbies aren't as popular as, say, watching football so we can't always be as particular as we like about who we play or hang out with. But after years of searching I've finally amassed a (mostly) cool group who I can get along with.
nezumi
I don't see how people who enjoy the minutiae of rule systems or fictional backgrounds are 'jerks'. Alright, maybe your gaming style isn't so focused on the detailed mechanics, but it occurs to me calling people who happen not to share your tastes jerks is... well, a little jerky.
CircuitBoyBlue
My gaming group is totally made up of jerks. I can definitely see why other people don't hang out with us. We've been doing it so long that we don't know when to stop. Honest to god, the other week, I let a date devolve into an argument about Star Trek. I mean, I get that other people have their own opinions, but I still feel that they should all have MY opinions. And yes, being an attractive woman is supposed to get you a lot more leeway than most people in my eyes, being that I'm so desperate and all, but if you're a jerk 999 days in a row, on day 1000, you're likely to forget how to talk to pretty people.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Feb 25 2008, 01:09 PM) *
I am white but I'm not a nerd. I suck at math unless I use a calculator. I work out every day so I'm not pudgy either. My girlfriend and I are both artists and geeks (in the Battlestar Galactica-watching, comic book collecting sense) and we play SR together with the group that I GM. We both have D&D experience. Our group is made up of four men and four women. One of my players met his wife playing D&D and they're both good looking people. I don't particularly like hanging out with sexless, tactless, dandruffy weirdos who nitpick rules rather than go with the flow or insist that Wolverine could totally beat up Lobo so they're not allowed to play with me. SO THERE! nyahnyah.gif


Fair enough with sexless, tactless, dandruffy, and so on. But nitpicking rules is the heart of the game. It's a "game" because there are rules and depending on how good your strategies and tactics are you either succeed or fail (your character dies or is defeated). As a GM nothing has caused more problems for me than rules ambiguity.

Back when I started I often let rules slide precisely because I was thinking about the flow of the game. But years later it created a situation where people flipped out whenever their character died. If the rules could slide at one point, why couldn't it slide then, they asked. More to the point, it created an ambiguous understanding of the rules by many people at the table so that when they clearly should have died under the rules as written they weren't totally clear on that mathematical fact and instead launched into long and pointless arguments to the contrary.

If I ever GM again, I think that I'm going to go very strictly rules as written as much as is possible and to do things exactly consistiently as much as is possible. I feel this would actually remove the chance people have to suspect favortism, GM ire, and so forth, because everyone would be on the same page about how the rules work and that the dice fall as they may.
Grinder
QUOTE (nezumi @ Feb 26 2008, 08:57 PM) *
I don't see how people who enjoy the minutiae of rule systems or fictional backgrounds are 'jerks'. Alright, maybe your gaming style isn't so focused on the detailed mechanics, but it occurs to me calling people who happen not to share your tastes jerks is... well, a little jerky.


I was more focusing on that points:
QUOTE
I don't particularly like hanging out with sexless, tactless, dandruffy weirdos
. Add a complete lack of social skills and you get the kind of people that I personally don't want to hang around with.

Wesley Street
QUOTE (nezumi @ Feb 26 2008, 02:57 PM) *
I don't see how people who enjoy the minutiae of rule systems or fictional backgrounds are 'jerks'. Alright, maybe your gaming style isn't so focused on the detailed mechanics, but it occurs to me calling people who happen not to share your tastes jerks is... well, a little jerky.


QUOTE
Back when I started I often let rules slide precisely because I was thinking about the flow of the game. But years later it created a situation where people flipped out whenever their character died. If the rules could slide at one point, why couldn't it slide then, they asked. More to the point, it created an ambiguous understanding of the rules by many people at the table so that when they clearly should have died under the rules as written they weren't totally clear on that mathematical fact and instead launched into long and pointless arguments to the contrary.

If I ever GM again, I think that I'm going to go very strictly rules as written as much as is possible and to do things exactly consistiently as much as is possible. I feel this would actually remove the chance people have to suspect favortism, GM ire, and so forth, because everyone would be on the same page about how the rules work and that the dice fall as they may.


Okay, I get your point guys. And you know what? You're right. Rules should be followed or chaos ensues. Absolutely agree there. (Side note: I LOVE sticking to fictional backgrounds...)

The point I (unsuccessfully) tried to make was that when rules-picking completely destroys the flow of a game... that's jerky. Admittedly, I'm a newbie GM. I completely screwed up combat in my first Shadowrun adventure. But I've played enough pen and paper RPGs that I've figured out my own style of GMing. I will severely penalize players for life-threatening errors (like with a very large hospital bill) or even just a run of bad dice rolling. But being an irritant at the table or not listening to clues provided that could have saved a life... I take no pity if the rules say you're dead. Maybe you can call that favoritism but as the GM you're doing more work than anyone else at the table so you SHOULD have some God-like perks. But on the flip side, if I make a judgment and a player politely argues against it and the rulebook is in his corner I will definitely concede to him or her. I play with close friends so it's not like we're going to flip the table over and get into a slap fight over a poor rule judgment (another stereotypical geek trait I dislike). It's not me as GM vs. them The Players. It's all of us together.

If I wanted to argue rules all day long I'd be a lawyer. I'm a professional artist and an amateur writer so my games have that feel. Well, hopefully the writing doesn't feel amateur. smile.gif
nezumi
QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Feb 27 2008, 02:03 PM) *
The point I (unsuccessfully) tried to make was that when rules-picking completely destroys the flow of a game... that's jerky.


Like you said, that's your preferred method of gaming. I don't like rules discussions that extend beyond 30 seconds myself. But I know people who authentically enjoy debating rules. Simulationists as a general rule would prefer to spend the time to do it RIGHT rather than do it expediently or make a good story. That's fine (and that's why I'm not into warhammer!) I've run games for rule hawks, I've run games for people who don't even like books being involved. I've run games for loons (alright, those are mostly just the games I run for myself), who like the rules to make things funny happen. As long as everyone knows the type of game, it's all cool.

Now if you're the only person who enjoys that sort of gaming in a group of people who don't enjoy it, and have made it clear they don't enjoy it, that's a bit nasty because you're having your fun at the expense of others. Just like if I were in a group of players like me, and there was one player or the GM who kept ignoring the rules 'to keep the story going', I'd consider him a jerk.
DocTaotsu
Group fun is paramount in my mind, if anything a individual player does disrupts the flow and fun of the game than I need to sit down with that player and have a chat. In my experience rules lawyer is a major source of unfun but railroading and fetishism follow closely behind. Like Nezumi says, if everyone is on the same page than a group can usually power through a weak spot and get on with their lives.

I also have a good gaming buddy who is a complete RULES WHORE and I wanted to physically attack him when he started using calculus+magic in a D&D game.
Wesley Street
QUOTE (nezumi @ Feb 28 2008, 10:39 AM) *
Now if you're the only person who enjoys that sort of gaming in a group of people who don't enjoy it, and have made it clear they don't enjoy it, that's a bit nasty because you're having your fun at the expense of others. Just like if I were in a group of players like me, and there was one player or the GM who kept ignoring the rules 'to keep the story going', I'd consider him a jerk.


You get no argument from me and I think you made my point for me. Anyone who disrupts the flow of a game that everyone else is enjoying needs a good talking to. And those are the kinds of geeks I don't like to hang with, be they rules-lawyers or the total opposite.
Daddy's Little Ninja
Guys, Hocus Pocus is an adult, married and has two children.

For myself, looking at his original post;
I'm not white.
I'm not male.
I do not have a locker, I have a house.
I'm not a virgin (I have a child.).
and since I was a cheerleader in high school and college I use to date the football players. Maybe I am the exception that proves the rule?
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja @ Mar 5 2008, 11:06 AM) *
Guys, Hocus Pocus is an adult, married and has two children.

Ffor myself, looking at his original post;
I'm not white.
I'm not male.
I do not have a locker, I have a house.
I'm not a virgin (I have a child.).
and since I was a cheerleader in high school and college I use to date the football players. Maybe I am the exception that proves the rule?


You're probably not really a gamer. It's a fact of chemistry that when gamers come in contact with football players they burst into flames.
CircuitBoyBlue
They don't burst into flames. They burst into bruises and scar tissue.

I don't think Daddy's Little Ninja exists, though. Females aren't real; I'm pretty sure they're just a lie the jackasses I hang out with tell me in order to trick me into being lonely when I actually have tons of friends.
Daddy's Little Ninja
I met Snow Fox and the man whom I eventually married working out at a judo dojo. They were a part of a gaming group and I started playing to spend time with him.
PBTHHHHT
QUOTE (Wesley Street)
If I wanted to argue rules all day long I'd be a lawyer. I'm a professional artist and an amateur writer so my games have that feel.


Hey now, some of us on here are lawyers. I don't try to argue rules all day long for sake that time is money and you gotta keep the game running than having it screech to a halt. The argument is for between game sessions.

QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
You're probably not really a gamer. It's a fact of chemistry that when gamers come in contact with football players they burst into flames.


I have friends who are gamers and also played football. Hmmm... no spontaneous combustions since they're still alive and unburnt.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja @ Mar 5 2008, 01:15 PM) *
I met Snow Fox and the man whom I eventually married working out at a judo dojo. They were a part of a gaming group and I started playing to spend time with him.


I don't think that gamers can play judo. They might play wing chun or wushu or taekwondo or something but not judo. Why? Because judo has too much randori and shiai and not enough LARP factor.
Daddy's Little Ninja
The studied judo. They also played SR.

Snow Fox regularly wiped up the mat with me.

My husband, well it's a different type of randori now.
nezumi
I'd have to agree, "Daddys little ninja" is, at best, some overweight, middle-aged guy with a great back story. At worst, she's actually some sort of mystical agent, a semi-intelligent data sprite locked in the internet whose sole joy is from interacting with humans masquerading as one of their own.
CircuitBoyBlue
Crap, I didn't even think of that. Ok, we'd better shut up. He/It probably can't get any joy from it if we're calling him/it out on it like this.
Wounded Ronin
DLN is actually Eliza 2.0, with spooky psychic powers to tell you things that beguile you and appeal to your deepest most forbidden desires.
Critias
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Mar 5 2008, 09:30 PM) *
DLN is actually Eliza 2.0, with spooky psychic powers to tell you things that beguile you and appeal to your deepest most forbidden desires.

I think you've got "spooky psychic powers" and "breasts" mixed up again.
Snow_Fox
I don't know. I wear something tight or with a low neck line and take a deep breath and it's like I've aimed a feeblemind spell at the males.
Vegetaman
Man, I haven't been on dumpshock in years... It's nice to see my old account works and that the site has had a facelift!

Well I grew out of my teenage years now, but I am in my early 20s and a computer science major in college. I still love Shadowrun though.

Although, to be fair, I am white. But I do have a bit of a tan, thanks to the fact that I spend my summers working in a tractor mechanic shop. That, and my family has a farm.

Though I am definitely a big fan of playing guitar and listening to heavy metal.
Wounded Ronin
...breasts.

*sigh*
kanislatrans
When one gets to be my age ,such distractions as the female form are easily set aside ...and um focusing on more.....perkiness..er...pertinent and..um things of more... import...crap, what was I trying to say? spin.gif
Daddy's Little Ninja
Deep breaths, just put your head between your knees and you'll be ok.
Adarael
I don't know which I think is more stereotypically geeky: that many people here seem to agree that breasts are flustering and cause heart palpitations...
...or that they fail to impress me simply by virtue of the fact that half of everyone I know has them, but I generally get the flustered effect when confronted with high tech gadgetry.
mfb
c) acquires flusters and palpatizationing of the heart at the sight of high-tech breasts. reverse nipplomatics make me swoon!
Wesley Street
QUOTE (Adarael @ Mar 11 2008, 04:54 PM) *
I don't know which I think is more stereotypically geeky: that many people here seem to agree that breasts are flustering and cause heart palpitations...
...or that they fail to impress me simply by virtue of the fact that half of everyone I know has them, but I generally get the flustered effect when confronted with high tech gadgetry.


Is getting bent out of shape over bosoms a geeky thing or just a male thing in general? Personally I find them awesome and they feel the way I imagine clouds feel in Heaven.

Then again... any half-way decent looking woman in a low cut shirt at a comic or gaming convention can summon her own personal, sweaty army of the night. I took a rather well-endowed ex- to a comic con and let her borrow my Superman tee for the day. In the artists' alley area, a curly-haired portly fellow wearing thick glasses wandered over to her with a sketchpad and asked: "Do you like dragons?". My ex- (who was a bit of a beeyotch) glared at him and sharply said "NO!" You could see the poor guy's heart crumble. frown.gif
Wounded Ronin
Well I'll give you the truth as I see it. Breasts are so attractive because they're fetishized by our society and must always be covered up. When I was in Micronesia bare breasts weren't that big of a deal. Generations ago women would usually go around topless and today while that isn't done except by older women it's not a big deal for women to go around topless if they're breastfeeding (which is common because of large families) or to just wear bras if they're doing some kind of physical work and the weather is hot.

So in that setting breasts weren't such a big deal to me. Nobody went through trouble to make them attractive and they were just another body part.

However, in the US, if someone is exhibiting their breasts in some way they usually do it in a way that they try to make attractive, as with clothing, or as part of some kind of sexual show. Here, breasts are forbidden, mighty, and mysterious to me. But that's again just the social factors of fetishization and the people exhibiting the breasts always doing so when they want to be attractive or sexual.
Wesley Street
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Mar 12 2008, 12:03 PM) *
However, in the US, if someone is exhibiting their breasts in some way they usually do it in a way that they try to make attractive, as with clothing, or as part of some kind of sexual show. Here, breasts are forbidden, mighty, and mysterious to me. But that's again just the social factors of fetishization and the people exhibiting the breasts always doing so when they want to be attractive or sexual.


Interesting. So where you are in the world changes your view of feminine sexuality?

Given our unhealthily puritanical history (a British writer once said the Pilgrims were kicked out of England so that everyone else could have a bit of fun) and the human inclination to want or to see what he isn't allowed I'm not surprised by America's naughty-naughty-wink-wink-show-everything-but-the-nipple attitude towards sexuality. I'm hardly a prude and I'm sure if I lived in South America or Spain or another warmer-climate European country toplessness wouldn't be such a big deal. It's really not one to me now but I also went to art school and have a fairly progressive stance on life. To paraphrase a sex columnist "nothing is more boring in sex than straight nudity".

Non-U.S. native geeks, what are your thoughts?
cREbralFIX
I'm the 90 pound weakling turned into a buff athlete trained in modern combat shooting, knifing and martial arts.

Yeah, I played three times as much D&D as football players practiced in a year. At some point, I decided that really getting out there and pounding on people was as good, or better, than fantasizing about it.

Besides, losing the gut really helped with the ladies.

If you're a typical gamer...hard working, but overweight, try Team Ruthless. They offer remote service via phone, email and multimedia. Check out the eternal "Workout of the Day 2008" thread on www.warriortalk.com. Some of the guys in the UK are really turning into high speed monsters. One guy that I work out with did almost three situps in his assessment workout! Now he getting through full 30 minute workouts that would have crushed his knees and back six months ago.

Believe me, it's worth it. My back and thighs no longer hurt just from working all day on the computer.
Fortune
QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Mar 13 2008, 05:16 AM) *
Interesting. So where you are in the world changes your view of feminine sexuality?


Definitely! There are tribes in Africa where the women never cover their breasts, and the men think nothing of them, not even considering them sexual 'implements'. But those same women never show their knees or ankles, or a huge scandal occurs. The knees and ankles in their society are very sexual (for some reason I can't recall, but not what first comes to mind smile.gif). It's not only a cultural/societal thing, but also geographical as well.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Mar 12 2008, 01:16 PM) *
Interesting. So where you are in the world changes your view of feminine sexuality?


Oh, absoutely. I'm influenced by my surroundings. My breast fetish was turned off for about 2 years and now that I'm back in the US it's turned back on again. It's very convienient, really. If you ever get bored with a particular sexual thing you can just forget about it and shift gears for a while.
Daddy's Little Ninja
I think it is that uncovered, they are just anantomy but covered, well there is something to look for. Personally i like looknig at a well dressed guy that someone stripped to the waist. half naked for the world to see, he is hsred. But well dressed and i can imagine what's underneath and how to get there. wink.gif
kookyjeld
QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja @ Mar 31 2008, 12:54 PM) *
I think it is that uncovered, they are just anantomy but covered, well there is something to look for. Personally i like looknig at a well dressed guy that someone stripped to the waist. half naked for the world to see, he is hsred. But well dressed and i can imagine what's underneath and how to get there. wink.gif


Agreed. There's something about a dress shirt and a tie that makes me want to rip off the outside packaging, if you know what I mean. wink.gif
nezumi
But if you rip it off, he doesn't have a dress shirt and tie any more. Do you walk around just ripping shirts off of men only to forget why you did it in the first place?

(Man, women make no sense...)
kookyjeld
QUOTE (nezumi @ Apr 3 2008, 07:48 AM) *
But if you rip it off, he doesn't have a dress shirt and tie any more. Do you walk around just ripping shirts off of men only to forget why you did it in the first place?

(Man, women make no sense...)


Damn, you've uncovered my lifelong dream of a world full of shirtless businessmen!
CircuitBoyBlue
QUOTE (kookyjeld @ Apr 3 2008, 07:49 AM) *
Damn, you've uncovered my lifelong dream of a world full of shirtless businessmen!


I don't know where YOU work, but every office building I've ever been in has been 99.9% populated with people whose shirts need to stay ON for the good of humanity. Honestly, I see an attractive person maybe once during the course of an average work week.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (kookyjeld @ Apr 3 2008, 08:49 AM) *
Damn, you've uncovered my lifelong dream of a world full of shirtless businessmen!


Businessmen tend to be fat.
Hocus Pocus
ya ever notice, my fellow geeky virgin losers, that whenever we state the pure, unequvicle fact that there is no such thing as girl gamers, we have peeps come out of the wood work trying to atest the otherwise? i mean come on now jump back! the frequency that they would have us believe women play these types of games would mean we would see haley's comet every night!

I submit, that these so called "girl gamers" are in actuality the characters they play. These poor sods are in so deep they actually think their characters are real, hence they seemingly "play" shadowrun with them "IRL" *tisk,tisk*. Compound it with the ones that have their character so subsumed their psyche that they actually THINK they themselves are that ultra hot wiz bang spell slinging, hot chica. Fantastic is it not? well it's the chip truth chummerinos. Our fellow geeks need our help, the only way to pull them out of the abyss, is of course with a real life woman. The slightest touch will snap them out of it, since it is ultra rare we get to touch any kind of women outside our families.
nezumi
We shouldn't push it too much, lest we see a rise in lingerie store robberies.

(Google that if you don't know what I'm talking about.)
CircuitBoyBlue
QUOTE (Hocus Pocus @ Apr 21 2008, 12:49 AM) *
Our fellow geeks need our help, the only way to pull them out of the abyss, is of course with a real life woman. The slightest touch will snap them out of it, since it is ultra rare we get to touch any kind of women outside our families.


We can't help them; we're nerds too. Nobody will ever love us, because there is something fundamentally wrong with us that we need to be ashamed of.
Cantankerous
*lol* Who am I as a gamer? I'm the odd man out.

In High School in the mid 70's I discovered this unknown (in South Florida back then at least) game called Dungeons and Dragons that came not in a box, but in a zip lock baggie, sold that way, with another zip lock baggie with one each of the most excrebable excuses for dice in the history of dice. But hey, no one back then knew that only geeks played this game so maybe I can be forgiven for being a Jock. I lettered in five sports and made All State Honorable Mention for being a nasty boy Defensive Tackle on our regional championship football team. I had a couple of athletic scholarship offers based on that. But life intervened and I ended up a US Marine Jar Head in the late summer of '79 and brought knowledge of the game with me, so that while I was in the hospital and then in and out of Veterans Clinics in late '81 I rediscovered it in the form of AD&D and really got hooked.

I don't know. Maybe I just drew other odd men gamers (and odd women gamers too, we always seemed to have about 1/3 of our groups as female except for the one that met at the Game Store) to me like a magnet wherever I was. Most of my Players didn't fit the "typical mold" either. Two at one time were Cops. Another was a Fire Fighter. All of my core group when I finally settled down to one place for a fair stretch of years were former military. Hey, I'm a big guy myself, very big in fact, and yet in that group only one of the seven of us at the core was smaller. All of us were former athletes, jocks to put not too fine a point on it. When we showed up at the local comic book/gamer store to use their back room for games the "typical gamers" would gawk at us. We picked up the nick name the Orc Mafia because of it. smile.gif

Nope...there really is no "gamer mold" anymore...and back in the day, maybe it wasn't really there either. Except in the minds of a few guys who were insecure about themselves and so had to "stigmatize" gamers to feel better about themselves.



Isshia
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