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Wynters
I've been looking at a number of characters that have been posted on these boards and the one pretty consistent facet of them is Charisma 1.

Sure, Charisma doesn't help you directly kill stuff or help pick that maglock but it seems that people don't realise just what Charisma 1 means.

The BBB states that Charisma represents "a character's personal aura, self-image, ego, willngness to find out what people want and give it to them, and ability to recognise what she can and can't get out of people. A whiny demeanour,a me-first attitude or an inability to read body language or subtle hints are just a few traits that can give a character low Charisma."

The Attributes table defines 1 as "Weak", but it also defines it as the absolute lowest value that exists.

Charisma 1 indicates a character that is a pit of self-image negativity, selfishness, whinginess, totally blind/uncaring to the needs and desires of others and unable to communicate in any meaningful way on a social level.

Charmis 1 makes people taking a reflexive dislike to the character almost mandatory. There is no-one else in the world with less Charisma than this character. No one.

Who on earth would want to run with such people? Which contacts would develop anything but the most coldly professional relationship with such a runner? Who wouldn't turn such a thoroughly dislikable runner in for the merest hint of a reward? Who are the local police going to constantly pick on? When someone is scanning a crowd who is going to be the person standing out, the people who can blend into a social situation or the person everyone gives a wide berth to and no one ever looks at just in case he makes eye-contact first?

And that's not even exploring the "Oh man, I'm so rubbish I will never be able to make that climb/pick that lock/survive that gunfight/etc, etc." aspect of having such the lowest self-image possible.

Surely the one stat you can't afford to have at 1 is Charisma.

Thoughts?
Earlydawn
Shadowrunning is built around cold, professional relationships. Fixers (usually) aren't your buddy. They're your handler.
ArkonC
Indeed, I'd say there are more socially unadapted people amongst shadowrunners than amongst normal people...
There's only one thing I think is odd about charisma, and that is that it apperantly also deals with self-image...
I don't see why one could not be the most self-confident man, but be incredibly rude and impatient, farting all the time and that...
That would lead to Cha 1, and he would still think he's the dogs testicles...
Larme
QUOTE (Wynters @ Mar 3 2008, 01:14 PM) *
The Attributes table defines 1 as "Weak", but it also defines it as the absolute lowest value that exists.


Wrong! The lowest you can get is "Uncouth." That makes you untrained for all social skills, you can't even default to them, automatic fail. At least with charisma 1, if you stakced on some situational modifiers (i.e. you're uncharismatic but you have a big gun and 5 friends) you could succeed.

QUOTE
Charisma 1 indicates a character that is a pit of self-image negativity, selfishness, whinginess, totally blind/uncaring to the needs and desires of others and unable to communicate in any meaningful way on a social level.


Street Samuari, anyone? Lost my soul to chrome, live for nothing but the kill, baby!

QUOTE
Charmis 1 makes people taking a reflexive dislike to the character almost mandatory. There is no-one else in the world with less Charisma than this character. No one.


See Uncouth. And there are plenty of people with equal charisma. They're as uncharismatic as they come, but that's not special.

QUOTE
Who on earth would want to run with such people? Which contacts would develop anything but the most coldly professional relationship with such a runner? Who wouldn't turn such a thoroughly dislikable runner in for the merest hint of a reward? Who are the local police going to constantly pick on? When someone is scanning a crowd who is going to be the person standing out, the people who can blend into a social situation or the person everyone gives a wide berth to and no one ever looks at just in case he makes eye-contact first?


Someone who values more than just personality would run with a charisma 1 person. If the expert sniper never talks unless you almost force him to, are you going to complain? Not as long as he's covering your ass. And charisma 1 people don't stick out like a sore thumb as you describe. It isn't some kind of magical vibe that they give off that everyone can sense. Imagine a crowded room -- there might be a charisma 1 person in there, and you could probably find them (maybe by themselves in the corner) but it's not like "OMG LOOK AT THAT GUY!" That is what you would say about a charisma 10 guy. Your attention goes *snap* right onto someone with the noticeable, vibrant presence. The lame, uncool non-presence of a charisma 1 person goes right under your radar. The except would be when the charisma 1 is trying to look nonchallant. Then, anyone who's paying attention and makes a successful perception test would notice that the guy is acting suspiciously.

QUOTE
Surely the one stat you can't afford to have at 1 is Charisma.


What stat you can't afford to have at 1 is totally dependent on the character you play. A straigh up combat person can get by with it. Now, it sounds to me like as GM, you would say that the character can't go outside without the police arresting him for being uncharismatic. But that's you game.
martindv
QUOTE (Wynters @ Mar 3 2008, 02:14 PM) *
I've been looking at a number of characters that have been posted on these boards and the one pretty consistent facet of them is Charisma 1.

...
Surely the one stat you can't afford to have at 1 is Charisma.

Thoughts?

It may be less of a problem in SR4, but because historically Charisma doesn't matter to most games I've seen or played in for any system I can think of. So why bother? Especially if you're a min-maxer (which SR appeals strongly to).

15 years. Surely the one stat that most commonly was a 1 (and not just for trolls) because it was a "useless" stat was, in fact, Charisma. So yes, you can afford it.
Shrike30
There's some truth to that, but at the same time, a fixer you can't keep from getting into screaming matches with is gonna stop calling you up for work. Or start sending you on jobs he thinks will get you killed.

And runs always go smoother if you can get your crazy friend to shut the **** up while you be polite and ask "Is there a problem, officer?"
Shrike30
QUOTE (ArkonC @ Mar 3 2008, 10:26 AM) *
I don't see why one could not be the most self-confident man, but be incredibly rude and impatient, farting all the time and that...
That would lead to Cha 1, and he would still think he's the dogs testicles...


That might better be replicated by having Uncouth and a decent Charisma. I've got a dispatcher like that smile.gif
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Wynters @ Mar 3 2008, 01:14 PM) *
...A whiny demeanour,a me-first attitude or an inability to read body language or subtle hints are just a few traits that can give a character low Charisma."...

... selfishness, whinginess, totally blind/uncaring to the needs and desires of others and unable to communicate in any meaningful way on a social level.....

Assuming whinginess describes someone who whines. As an example: Jayne Cobb, from Firefly. He does tend to whine. He is terribly selfish. He either misses subtle social cues or just doesn't care. Yet he is an interesting character, functions as part of a team, and helps to tell an interesting story. His only significant abilities are all violent in a shooting, sneaking, punching, killing sort of way.

I now realize I left out the low self-image part from the quote, but Jayne even lives up to that, as evidenced in the episode when the Mudders hold him up as a hero. The rest of the time he masks his self-image issues with a lot of false bravado, but it's undeniably there.

Charisma 1 does not indicate a bad or munchy character. It is a possible warning sign, but that is all.
mfb
i guess i'm just vain about my characters--i've never used Cha as a dump stat except in D&D (where you have a lot less control over your stat numbers).
sloejack
QUOTE (Wynters @ Mar 3 2008, 02:14 PM) *
Surely the one stat you can't afford to have at 1 is Charisma.

Thoughts?


When having a 1 Charisma can get you killed, then people might start balancing their characters out and putting some points to it.
I think the real question you're asking, that based on the way the game defines the scope of charisma, do the players who take a 1 charisma for themselves actually play that way or do they and the GMs ignore it as a dump stat?
imperialus
because different groups look for different things in their games.

Some groups might like getting involved in huge intricate plots where Haraquin has them on speed-dial and they will go several sessions between combat.

Other groups might like a Hong Kong Action Theater style game where the session isn't complete unless the Streetsam has jumped through a window while firing his matching Ares Preadators.

Some groups might rely on a dedicated face for all their NPC dealings, while other groups might have negotiations involving all the PC's.

Some groups might focus a great deal on relationships between the PC's while others might just assume that all the PC's get along well enough not to kill each other and go from there.

No matter what your groups playstyle there is no such thing as wrongbadfun. If a Cha 1 streetsam/hacker/mage whatever works in your group great. If not, that's just dandy too. It's not like you have to play the characters that other people post here.

Besides lets face it. At its core Shadowrun is a game where you play a criminal who shoots people in the face for money. That isn't a career choice that appeals to very many bubbly shiny happy people who are easy to get along with.
Wynters
QUOTE (Larme @ Mar 3 2008, 06:27 PM) *
Wrong! The lowest you can get is "Uncouth." That makes you untrained for all social skills, you can't even default to them, automatic fail. At least with charisma 1, if you stakced on some situational modifiers (i.e. you're uncharismatic but you have a big gun and 5 friends) you could succeed.
Strawman. It's not a case of skills. It's a case of Charisma. Someone whose very body language is rampantly offensive can have been trained how to negotiate, but that doesn't mean that he isn't rampantly offensive.

Otherwise having Agility 1 would have no detrimental affect on any non-specified agility action as long as I had Firearms 6, which is patently ridiculous.

QUOTE (Larme @ Mar 3 2008, 06:27 PM) *
Street Samuari, anyone? Lost my soul to chrome, live for nothing but the kill, baby!
"Welcome to a jail cell. You wouldn't believe that number of people who phoned in as soon as a reward was posted for information."

QUOTE (Larme @ Mar 3 2008, 06:27 PM) *
See Uncouth. And there are plenty of people with equal charisma. They're as uncharismatic as they come, but that's not special.
Strawman. There is, as I clearly said, no one with less Charisma
QUOTE (Larme @ Mar 3 2008, 06:27 PM) *
Someone who values more than just personality would run with a charisma 1 person. If the expert sniper never talks unless you almost force him to, are you going to complain? Not as long as he's covering your ass.
Actually, I would be working with the expert sniper who only has Agility 8 rather than Agility 9. Why? Because I wouldn't feel the constant need to punch the face in of the expert sniper with Charisma 1.
QUOTE (Larme @ Mar 3 2008, 06:27 PM) *
And charisma 1 people don't stick out like a sore thumb as you describe. It isn't some kind of magical vibe that they give off that everyone can sense. Imagine a crowded room -- there might be a charisma 1 person in there, and you could probably find them (maybe by themselves in the corner) but it's not like "OMG LOOK AT THAT GUY!"
Well, their personal aura (not the magical one) is the worst it could possibly be, their self-image and thus how they carry themselves is massively pronounced (and different to the others), the way they dress, etc, etc so, actually, it will be pretty obvious.
QUOTE (Larme @ Mar 3 2008, 06:27 PM) *
What stat you can't afford to have at 1 is totally dependent on the character you play. A straigh up combat person can get by with it. Now, it sounds to me like as GM, you would say that the character can't go outside without the police arresting him for being uncharismatic. But that's you game.
Charisma is in use constantly. It's like a commlink constantly being hit for info. Everybody who looks at you or deals with you encounters your Charisma. It just seems hilarious that so many people think that that means nothing compared to a 6% increase in a combat attribute. It's even more hilarious that people think that such a person would be able to find a team that would be willing to work with them.
mfb
QUOTE (Wynters)
Strawman. There is, as I clearly said, no one with less Charisma

that may be true, but it's also true that the lowest possible Cha score doesn't mean all the things you're talking about. someone with 1 Cha and Uncouth is much less pleasant to be around than someone with 1 Cha and a few points in social skills. and somoene with 1 Cha and high social skills might be pleasant to be around... but he just creeps people out for no reason you can put your finger on, or he's got the BO of a musk ox, or somesuch.
sloejack
QUOTE (mfb @ Mar 3 2008, 02:43 PM) *
that may be true, but it's also true that the lowest possible Cha score doesn't mean all the things you're talking about. someone with 1 Cha and Uncouth is much less pleasant to be around than someone with 1 Cha and a few points in social skills. and somoene with 1 Cha and high social skills might be pleasant to be around... but he just creeps people out for no reason you can put your finger on, or he's got the BO of a musk ox, or somesuch.

The Steve Buschemi of the 6th world? wink.gif
Jhaiisiin
You asked for people's thoughts (aka opinions) and now you're shooting them down with logical falacies. They're opinions, not statements of fact. We've already got one person on this board who loves to throws those falacies around, please don't become a second.

You may not agree with people's opinions, but you did ask for them.

That said, Charisma 1 has been the dump stat/low stat in a ton of RPG games (from DnD to White Wolf to Star Wars to SR... the list goes on) for all of history. The fact is, many people simply don't see the need for Charisma. Some do, and they take full advantage of that knowledge, but others go "Pshaw! Charsima is teh suk!" and just ignore the stat. If they have GM's who don't do anything about it, or allow the player to play however they think the character should act, irregardless of stats, then you have even more support for it being a "useless" stat. I'll admit, my GM's and even myself have been guilty of the latter, not enforcing a person's roleplaying based on their stats. After all, if you give that character a logic/intelligence of 1, you better not be the team tactician, you know? But it's not always enforced, and that fosters the (innacurate) belief that they don't need stat x.
Eyeless Blond
The thing is, attributes are significantly less granular than they were in SR3. In SR3, you could go from attribute 1-10, though of course 7-9 were really tough to get at chargen and 10 was especially rare and special. Now you are limited to 1-7, with 7 as the really rare and special one, and 1-4 being "common".

That means that your 1 Cha person is definitely not alone, and not even particularly unique. In fact, depending on the percentages, he'll likely fit in with between 14% and 25% of the population. Look around next time you're at work. If you're in a room with 20 people, likely 3-4 of them will have Cha 1, in SR4 terms. That's not rare; it's not even really notable.
Adarael
Charisma 1 is the lowest you can have a stat. It doesn't mean you're a leper, though. It just means you're not very social. This becomes apparent when you realize the average joe on the street probably has a charisma of 2.

Look at it this way: body 1 doesn't mean you have to live in a bubble, strength 1 doesn't mean you can't lift a backpack, agility 1 doesn't mean you can't walk, and charisma 1 doesn't mean people instinctively spit on you.
Jhaiisiin
Come to think of it, I would think it's possible to have a stat of 0. Someone who has no immune system and really weak skin could be body 0, someone who has 0 muscle strength due to atrophy or whatever could be str or agility 0, someone with brain damage or other complications could have charisma 0, etc. I don't see any reason why there can't be a 0 stat. You just can't be 0 at chargen.
martindv
QUOTE (mfb @ Mar 3 2008, 01:37 PM) *
i guess i'm just vain about my characters--i've never used Cha as a dump stat except in D&D (where you have a lot less control over your stat numbers).

Come to think of it, wasn't the term Dump Stat coined to describe Charisma?

QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Mar 3 2008, 01:53 PM) *
You asked for people's thoughts (aka opinions) and now you're shooting them down with logical falacies. They're opinions, not statements of fact. We've already got one person on this board who loves to throws those falacies around, please don't become a second.

Internet Charisma 1.

QUOTE (Adarael @ Mar 3 2008, 02:00 PM) *
Look at it this way: body 1 doesn't mean you have to live in a bubble, strength 1 doesn't mean you can't lift a backpack, agility 1 doesn't mean you can't walk, and charisma 1 doesn't mean people instinctively spit on you.

hahahaha

That's one way of fixing the Charisma 1 "problem".
Aaron
When I'm running a game with a Charisma 1 character, I like to use the stat to color the character's perceptions. For example, "That waitress is obviously hot for you," or "This cop keeps talking like he's waving his dick in your face," instead of what I'd tell a higher-Charisma character: "The waitress smiles politely as she asks for your order," or "The officer asks you to state your business."
Shrike30
2-4 is what I view as normal. 0-1 is the low range, 5-6 is the high. 7 is there because we excel in silly ways when we're Fastjack or Michael Jordan. smile.gif

It's definitely possible to have a stat of 0. Plenty of terminally ill or bedridden people could be described as having some or all of their physical stats at 0. Severely developmentally delayed folks, those with certain kinds of traumatic brain injury, or otherwise handicapped individuals could be described as having some or all of their mental stats at 0.

People in this state don't tend to become shadowrunners, however.

Composure and Judge Intentions rolls are a great way to keep Charisma relevant in a game.
BlueMax
Setting Charisma to 1 can make a great deal of sense in non social games. I have played with many groups that treat shadowrun as a chance to play modern field ops.

the_dunner
QUOTE (Adarael @ Mar 3 2008, 02:00 PM) *
This becomes apparent when you realize the average joe on the street probably has a charisma of 2.

By definition, "the average joe on the street" is a typical person. If he's a typical person, he has a charisma of 3. That's the basic model around which human attributes are scaled.
paws2sky
QUOTE (Wynters @ Mar 3 2008, 01:14 PM) *
I've been looking at a number of characters that have been posted on these boards and the one pretty consistent facet of them is Charisma 1.
Sure, Charisma doesn't help you directly kill stuff or help pick that maglock but it seems that people don't realise just what Charisma 1 means.

One thing you'll notice is that many of the characters tossed around here are designed with min/max in mind. If the character isn't using a set of skills, then the associated attributes are considered low priority. Some go as far as to flatline their low priority attributes which, IMO, is a bad idea.

QUOTE
The BBB states that Charisma represents "a character's personal aura, self-image, ego, willngness to find out what people want and give it to them, and ability to recognise what she can and can't get out of people. A whiny demeanour,a me-first attitude or an inability to read body language or subtle hints are just a few traits that can give a character low Charisma."
The Attributes table defines 1 as "Weak", but it also defines it as the absolute lowest value that exists.
Charisma 1 indicates a character that is a pit of self-image negativity, selfishness, whinginess, totally blind/uncaring to the needs and desires of others and unable to communicate in any meaningful way on a social level.

It could be argued that most people running the shadows are "not all there." Its not exactly an occupation that you accidentally get involved in. Well, okay, some people do (Sidewinder, etc.), but probably 95%+ of the runner community choose to live this insane, outlaw lifestyle. Many are dangerously psychotic, drug addicted, p-fixed, scorched, anti-social, or what have you.

(Heck, if you think about it, Faces are abnormal too. Why on Earth would these people, who are universally attractive, smooth talking, and (very often) wealthy go anywhere near the shadows? They could get a high paying job as a PR person for a corp. Or if they really hated the corps, how about a Policlub or non-profit? If they want excitement, there's always base jumping, race car driving, paranimal training...)

QUOTE
Who on earth would want to run with such people? Which contacts would develop anything but the most coldly professional relationship with such a runner? Who wouldn't turn such a thoroughly dislikable runner in for the merest hint of a reward? Who are the local police going to constantly pick on? When someone is scanning a crowd who is going to be the person standing out, the people who can blend into a social situation or the person everyone gives a wide berth to and no one ever looks at just in case he makes eye-contact first?

Anyone that sees value in their other skills, gear, etc.? For instance...
  • Brutus Da Troll may be completely socially retarded, but he's the biggest, baddest, mo-fo around. He's a jerk, crude, smells like ass, and has a habit of spitting on the floor, but he comes with his own Panther Cannon, tons of implants, and a van full of oddball gear that he's looted during his career. Just never let him open his mouth at the meet.
  • Gunther Vanderhaus was a world class decker at XYZ corp before Crash 2.0. Despite his age (around 35), he's about as emotionally developed as your average brooding teenager. His mind is as sharp as a monosword and his commlink is top of the line, packed with custom programs, and he knows backdoors into a dozen different nodes around the sprawl. He also happens to your team's new hacker. Just don't ever let him get talked up by a pretty face at the bar.

If I were the team's Face, either of those Cha 1 characters viable additions to the group. Sure, it'd increase the work I'd have to do to keep running smoothly (and securely), but I need a good hacker and I really probably should have some muscle.

These chumps are easy to manipulate and they're probably going to be conviced that I'm their best buddy if I make sure to keep them well stocked on booze, porn, hooker, and whatever other vice they happen to have. And if worst comes to worst, I can throw them under the bus, so to speak, and save my own skin. They're never going to be able to convince anyone that I was the person who made all those horrible things happen.

QUOTE
Surely the one stat you can't afford to have at 1 is Charisma.

Having any of the stats at 1 is pretty terrible when you think about it what is means in-game and not just as numbers on the character sheet. Still, of all the stats, Cha is the one that's least likely to get you instantly dead if you have it at 1.

And then there's the other game mechanics issue: XP costs. In the long run, its cheaper to bottom out an attribute at character creation to boost another one up. Buying that 1 up to a 2 will cost you farless than, say, buying that 5 up to a 6.
Wynters
QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Mar 3 2008, 06:53 PM) *
You asked for people's thoughts (aka opinions) and now you're shooting them down with logical falacies. They're opinions, not statements of fact. We've already got one person on this board who loves to throws those falacies around, please don't become a second.
EDIT: I'm happy to have people point out where I've gone wrong. I've deliberately included the sections of the rules that informed my view so just that could take place (I would appreciate it if you would actually point out the 'logical fallacies' rather than just throw the words around as if they actually carried some weight). If people raise decent queries/points then I'll happily alter my stance but I tend to take exception at people either ignoring or misrepresenting what I said which is why I've only replied to one other particular post.

Although I would take this opportunity to re-emphasise the point I made that no-one, not even PCs would like to hang around with Charisma 1. Not when there is a significant pool of Shadow runners who are less offensive and can do the job just as well (give or take a slight difference in combat pools). Therefore comments about using a Face to offset the Charisma 1 runner would seem to be flawed.
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (the_dunner @ Mar 3 2008, 11:11 AM) *
By definition, "the average joe on the street" is a typical person. If he's a typical person, he has a charisma of 3. That's the basic model around which human attributes are scaled.

It was in SR3, but not anymore. Now the average is 2-2.5, and if you look at the stats for the various sample characters you'll see that they always have roughly equal numbers of 2s and 3s. Remember that a 6 in SR4 is roughly equivalent to a 9 in SR3, both in effect and in the karma cost it costs to get there from 1. Just like there aren't many with stats of 7-10 in SR3, there aren't many people with stats of 5-7 in SR4.
quentra
I've never been much of a rollplayer, so I'd have to side with Wynters. I don't really see how Charisma could be a dumpstat, except for minmaxers. Sure, I might hire that Char 1 troll for a job, but would I really want him on my teams, dealing with his loud, ugly, and smelly ways everyday? That's what I've never gotten. If a person wants to get anything, he has to have some social skills, and some self worth. That's especially true for runners. But then, I always used Bod or Con as my dumpstat, and hid behind the troll/fighter. nyahnyah.gif
Jhaiisiin
QUOTE (Wynters)
Although I would take this opportunity to re-emphasise the point I made that no-one, not even PCs would like to hang around with Charisma 1.

I disagree. A person will tolerate a great amount of idiocy from a person if they have other valuable assets. IRL I know a couple people who are Charsima 1, MAYBE 2. I hang out with them and have no issues doing so, but I don't do so 24/7. It's in chunks, and it's perfectly tolerable. If I were a PC, I'd make sure that Cha 1 cretin had his own place, but when it came to a job, if he does his job better than most others, I'm not going to ditch him just because he's a jerk. Hell, sometimes that comes in handy in a run. "Keep this drek up, and I'm letting Mondo here have a whack at you, and he's a jerk even to his friends. Think of what he'll be to you."
Adarael
QUOTE (the_dunner @ Mar 3 2008, 11:11 AM) *
By definition, "the average joe on the street" is a typical person. If he's a typical person, he has a charisma of 3. That's the basic model around which human attributes are scaled.


I was under the impression that non-exceptional humans averaged at 2, not 3, owing to the way most descriptions of 2 are worded and the fact that it's quite rare for someone to have an attribute over 4. Just because the natural scale goes from 1-6 doesn't neccessarily mean that 3 is average just because it's in the middle of those numbers.

Just my take on it, though, and I admit that's due to equivalency scaling from SR3 conversions.

QUOTE
Although I would take this opportunity to re-emphasise the point I made that no-one, not even PCs would like to hang around with Charisma 1.

I thought the purpose of a running team was to commit crimes for money, not to hang out like homies. How much you like someone takes a backseat to how useful they are.
paws2sky
QUOTE (Wynters @ Mar 3 2008, 02:12 PM) *
Although I would take this opportunity to re-emphasise the point I made that no-one, not even PCs would like to hang around with Charisma 1. Not when there is a significant pool of Shadow runners who are less offensive and can do the job just as well (give or take a slight difference in combat pools). Therefore comments about using a Face to offset the Charisma 1 runner would seem to be flawed.


Who ever said anything about hanging out with them? If I'm Mr. Face, I want to keep my people content, but wanting more (never keep your people happy, that breeds laziness). As long as they don't compromise my security or credstick balance, I really don't care who they hang with. In fact, I'd rather they stayed cooped up in their apartments plugged into some VR shgooter than go otu and socialize with people.

For another example (and Jayne Cobb was a great one, BTW), I'll refer you to Leon from The Professional. That guy might not have Cha 1 (and he's certainly not Uncouth), but he sure doesn't have any social skills other than Intimidation.

Anyway...

If you see it as an issue, then warn the players up front that it would be a bad idea to have any attribute at 1, especially Cha. If people in your game still want to have a Cha 1, then give them both barrels. You did warn them after all.

You are the GM, right?
Earlydawn
This is a GM issue. It all revolves around what you feel Shadowrun is. If you want to play it as an episodic, objective-based dungeon crawler, then CHA is about as important as everyone professes in every other game system. If you play Shadowrun closer to a whacky-future crime thriller, then your game is 75% legwork and pre-planning, and 25% action. The latter demands more well-rounded, believable characters, as well as giving everyone something to do pre-run.
sungun
i've met someone with a 0 charisma. she had some sort of disorder that caused her to lose her impulse control. she was also incredibly pessimistic because her life was sort of lame and hopeless. and she was obese from the meds and smelly from lack of care. my friend was her paid caretaker. it was a strange role for him because she was perfectly capable of taking care of herself physically. he usually takes care of quadriplegics. but this lady couldn't go out in public alone. and he had to deal with all sorts of awful situations when she'd cause trouble.

some people dump charisma because they prefer to focus on strategy rather than roleplaying, but i think that's missing one of the more interesting strategy elements.. social strategy. and i'm not just talking about negotiation and con rolls. i'm talking about trying to piece together npc motivations, figuring out who to trust, who's playing you, and what you need to keep the other guy guessing. and you can't do any of that if you can't have a conversation with anyone. but that's what the face is for, right?

while it may be possible for the face to avoid ever having to shoot at someone, it's real unlikely the samurai can avoid social interaction all together. and anyways, how often do people make faces without some dodge and pistol?

i figure that anytime a stat gets down to 1, checks for fairly normal activities should pop up. 1 charisma.. roll to not piss off the bouncer on your way into the bar. 1 agility.. roll to avoid tripping over your own feet as you run away from the rent-a-cop. 1 willpower.. roll to avoid wetting your pants when the troll ganger threatens you.
the_dunner
QUOTE (Adarael @ Mar 3 2008, 02:25 PM) *
I was under the impression that non-exceptional humans averaged at 2, not 3, owing to the way most descriptions of 2 are worded and the fact that it's quite rare for someone to have an attribute over 4.

Look at the chart on p.62 of SR4.
QUOTE (SR4 @ p.62)
1 Weak
2 Underdeveloped
3 Typical
4 Improved
5 Superior
6 Maximum unmodified human


Joe Genero, human on the street has 3's across the board.
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (the_dunner @ Mar 3 2008, 11:54 AM) *
Look at the chart on p.62 of SR4.

Joe Genero, human on the street has 3's across the board.

Yeah, now if only that were reflected in the actual sample characters, or the fact that it costs 160 build points, plus 20 for Edge, just to get to that "average." No, the real "average" is 2-2.5; 3 is just a bad copy-paste job from SR3's rules.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (the_dunner @ Mar 3 2008, 02:54 PM) *
Look at the chart on p.62 of SR4.


Joe Genero, human on the street has 3's across the board.

True, that table says that 3 is the average.

And yet the NPC stats, karma costs, and the explicit word of the developers that "4 is the new 6" all point to the average person having 2 or 2.5. You have one piece of evidence vs many pieces of evidence, and you are concluding that the one is correct, and that the many are wrong.
Is it more likely that a single chart is in error, or that everything else is?

edit: Argh, Eyeless Blond is quicker than me!
Fortune
QUOTE (Wynters)
When did Charisma 1 become okay?


Shadowrun 1st Edition: Street Samurai!
Eyeless Blond
Not sure we want to argue that Fortune; most of the CLUE file entries started with something like, "And so the sammie decided it would be a good idea to..." biggrin.gif
Larme
QUOTE (sloejack @ Mar 3 2008, 01:37 PM) *
When having a 1 Charisma can get you killed, then people might start balancing their characters out and putting some points to it.
I think the real question you're asking, that based on the way the game defines the scope of charisma, do the players who take a 1 charisma for themselves actually play that way or do they and the GMs ignore it as a dump stat?


The thing is, having charisma 1 doesn't get you killed. Going into situations where you can't survive without making a social roll, and having charisma 1 with no social skills. That's what gets you killed. Otherwise, charisma 1 just gets you into fights, which you can win if you're hard enough. A low charisma character needs to be smart about what they do -- going to see the Oyabun in his home, surrounded by armed guards, to explain to him why you lost all his money is something a charisma 1 person should not do.

QUOTE (Adarael @ Mar 3 2008, 02:00 PM) *
Look at it this way: body 1 doesn't mean you have to live in a bubble, strength 1 doesn't mean you can't lift a backpack, agility 1 doesn't mean you can't walk, and charisma 1 doesn't mean people instinctively spit on you.


Brilliant! Couldn't have said it better myself. Ordinary tasks do not require tests, no matter how much you suck. Saying 'hello' to a person does not require a test, so you automatically succeed without rolling. Now if you had uncoth, the GM could make you roll for things that normally require a test. An uncouth person might try to greet a lady, and then find her pimp chasing him with a nailbat. But a charisma 1 person, as long as they don't try to do things that require rolls, is not all that handicapped.

QUOTE (Aaron @ Mar 3 2008, 02:06 PM) *
When I'm running a game with a Charisma 1 character, I like to use the stat to color the character's perceptions. For example, "That waitress is obviously hot for you," or "This cop keeps talking like he's waving his dick in your face," instead of what I'd tell a higher-Charisma character: "The waitress smiles politely as she asks for your order," or "The officer asks you to state your business."


That is awesome! I want to play in one of your games... And I will try and incorporate that into my own GMing grinbig.gif


@Wynters: this whole thing is your take on charisma 1. Nothing in the RAW supports you. There is no perception test to detect someone's charisma score. There is no modifier to a perception test based on someone's low charisma. Systemically, they are exactly as noticeable as everyone else around them. Now, when they make social rolls, they may very well suck. So when they roll etiquette to 'fit in and look like they belong,' they may fail, and stick out. But if they're just walking down the street without trying to pose as something they're not, there is nothing special about them to notice. Not all charisma 1 people are ugly. They don't all have poor posture. They don't all stink. Those might be factors contributing to charisma 1, but they are not necessary. A charisma 1 person might just never talk, and when he talks he only uses one or two words at a time. Or he might talk, but be an asshole. Or he might spit bits of food, and blow snot when he talks, but otherwise be a perfectly likeable guy. There is no rule that charisma 1 people conform to any of the things you envision them doing. In your games, charisma 1 people are these rare, twisted monster people. But really, they're just people who are bad with people, for any number of reasons.
Teulisch
personally, i think a good attribute mix would be 5/5/5/3/3/3/2/2. a stat of 1 is never really appropriate as it comes close to the problem of a 20-point flaw without the extra points. but the flip side of things, is that raising a stat from 1 to 2 isnt all that expensive with karma. some people are planning on using XP to make their characters balanced later, so they can Pwn N00bs right now. and then some people do want to playthe antisocial troll with 1 charisma and uncouth. it happens.

Spike
One important point: You are not explicitely penalized in the Shadowrun system for having 1 die, be it in an attribute or a skill. A Charisma of 1 may be weak, but this guy can still pass that typical threshold 1 social test 1 time in three (though, yes, he glitches as often as he succeeds). It doesn't PENALIZE him in any way.

Now, by the book he's got all the social skills at least at 0, like most people who aren't particularly sociable.

Never mind that I don't know anyone who looks objectively at everyone they meet and decides if they are cool enough to socialize with or not. Maybe the Charisma 1 dude has a few 'fair weather freinds' because he tends to buy the beers.

"Dude, Jimmy's a Jerk, I don't know why you guys hang out with him!"

"Nah, he's okay. Just hang out with him for a while. His heart's in the right place, he just tends to eat his foot alot."

Jimmy being the Charisma 1 guy. You've never had that conversation with a freind about someone both of you knew? Never seen it on TV? Maybe Dude knew Jimmy growing up, maybe they both like Schlitz and packers games... social lives are do not begin and end wiht charisma.
Xel
I think that there is something inherently wrong with statements such as "... no-one, not even PCs would like to hang around with Charisma 1. Not when there is a significant pool of Shadow runners who are less offensive and can do the job just as well ..." Not all shadowrunners are charismatic (see examples given by others in this thread) and they aren't necessarily supposed to be (see OTHER examples in this thread). Having a strong presence is only one of the paths that can (or should) be taken - there is nothing wrong with the socially inept hacker, street samurai, demolitions expert, assassin/adept, etc. When thinking about "bread and butter" stats, you'd think "Body/Str/Agi" for a street samurai (if he gets up close and personal), "Log" for a hacker, and yes, "Cha" for a face. However... the depth that a clever character who is not the most charismatic can have is astounding - imagine the squirrelly loan shark who makes everyone around him uneasy, but who makes surprisingly "compelling" arguments (low charisma, high intimidation [or the shadowrun equivilant]).

Going back to the first sentence in this posting... Requiring certain stats for characters to be accepted is a pretty bad idea and can be counter-productive to having a dynamic, engaging group. Saying that a character needs a charisma higher than 1 or he won't be welcomed into the group is shallow (see the irony?) and can lead to PC resentment (I want to play the character that _I_ want to play).

Yes... this also opens the door for min/maxing and the use of charisma as a dump stat... if a GM is concerned about that, he can create situations that highlight the downside to having the low charisma (individual interviews for a job, required social skill use to get past a dangerous situation, etc.).

Just my 2 cents...

--Xel
Earlydawn
I really love the idea of changing things around for low-stat characters. I'm going to have to try that..
djinni
QUOTE (the_dunner @ Mar 3 2008, 03:54 PM) *
Joe Genero, human on the street has 3's across the board.

okay we looked at the chart, now tell me how many people you know are "typical"
how many can pick up half their weight hoist it above their head and hold it there for a minute?
how many people can jog for 100 feet and not be winded at the end?
how many people can stand on their hands?
you get the point right? just because its the "typical" stat doesn't make it the common attribute level.
Apathy
In my mind, Forest Gump was always a good example of a guy with a Logic 1 (and Luck 6-7). He's not the stupidest guy in the world, and is more-or-less functional in society, but is clearly deficient compared to his peers. The world still has its share of people that are Logic 0 (the mentally retarded), but those people are not offered as a PC Shadowrunner option.

Similarly, Charisma 1 characters will be clearly deficient and possibly on the level of those with Asperger's Syndrome or highly functioning autism. They don't relate well with others or communicate well, and are singled out by their peers as weird or different. But they can walk into a room without immediately inciting the crowd to violence. And if they have compensating skillsets that can save the day, I imagine that there are plenty of teams that would be happy to have them ("Yeah, Johnny's a little strange, but he really saved our bacon back on the SK run. I wouldn't want to go without him in matrix overwatch, though I'd never introduce him to my family.")
Stahlseele
i'm pretty sure i've posted this some minutes ago . . but maybe we're tying the horse up from the wrong side? O.o
maybe people are not unsocial because of their charisma of 1 . . but they get perceived as charisma 1 because they are unsocial? O.o
bad enough, that they call us trolls dumb and ugly, but now we're uncharismatic because we don't like to socialise with the people who call us dumb and ugly?
Fortune
As far as my experience is concerned, Strength is the dump stat in SR4, not Charisma.
Kairo
Regardless of the semantics of the text, when I GM Shadowrun, I make sure that anyone with a 1 in Charisma (or any attribute for that matter) is going to feel some repurcussions from it. Have fun with those social encounters chummers, because you can bet they're going to be there.
djinni
QUOTE (Kairo @ Mar 3 2008, 06:00 PM) *
Regardless of the semantics of the text, when I GM Shadowrun, I make sure that anyone with a 1 in Charisma (or any attribute for that matter) is going to feel some repurcussions from it. Have fun with those social encounters chummers, because you can bet they're going to be there.

that's WHY I pick stats with a 1.
someone with a charisma 1 isn't going to be weak and feeble unless their willpower is also low
Stahlseele
so the mage, technomance,r hacker, rigger or face with that low body/agility/strength is going to find himself in more combat like situations(read in a bar taking a drink) than the samurai?
Whipstitch
As far as I'm concerned there's no need to go inventing extra penalties for a low charisma character. Having a low Charisma doesn't necessarily mean that everyone automatically dislikes you, but it does mean that everyone else gets to jump to conclusions about you however and whenever they see fit and there is almost nothing you can do to affect that assessment. That's a pretty harsh penalty in a game like Shadowrun even if everyone's in a fairly decent mood when they meet you.
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