it depends . . if you have our group hitting storage facilities or factorys of some known to us corp we try to find out what ELSE is in there aside from the obvious mcguffin and decide if it'S worth the hassle to steal more . . once our GM decided that the next target would be defended by motorized infantery or something like that . . several paramilitary vehicles for example . . i think he realized the error in his way when i ordered all of my mechanic contacts to make room for some vehicles to be disassembled *g*
Generally, we loot intelligently . . we search the bodies, a quick once over, if we find something interesting(radios, key-cards, keys, ID-Badge or something like that)we go YOINKS and it stays where we put it untill someone takes it from our not moving bodies . . if it's weapons, we generally let it lie there, because most of the time, those weapons will not be loaded with gel-ammo and equipped with silencers and the such and we're generally wearing form fitting clothing . . yes, even the troll, as much as people may hate me for that mental image *g* so there's not much room to carry things . . if we find something we WANT . . like security armor or a PAC or something like that, we TRY to loot it . . untill we get stuck on the way out because the damn thing won't fit through our hole in the wall or something like that . . once i had to use a freshly looted MMG to do close combat with it which ruined the weapon <.< . . once i looted a Sniper-Rifle after having thrown several Grenades at the shooter and the GM told me that the weapon was SHOT to hell by them . . i still looted and used the broken remains as blingbling for my character O.o . . make it INCONVENIENT for them to take things . . if they don't have a bag, they will have to hold it in their hands, if they won't hold it in their hands and they stick it where the sun don't shine it can just as simply fall out at any given hectic moment . . if they sneaked in through a small hole/tunnel ask them how they plan to get that Ares Great Dragon through there . . if they want security armor, remind them that some probably bloody body is at the moment wearing it and they know about how long it takes for them to get out of/into their work-clothes . . and then double said time and ask them again if they wanna spend 15 minutes or so stripping the guards while they are probably live on the air as cameras watch their every move . . be cREATIVE . . and of course, there's allways the option of GM:"you know what happens, when a body totally relaxes? EVERY MUSCLE? especially, when the body is dead? there's a puddle forming beneath the guy you just dropped . . and even you can see that it's not all blood" Player:"ick, yuck, i ain't taking that . . aah poo . . it's shot to hell . . it's in pieces . . i could use this armor as a fishermans net!" GM:"yes well, what do you expect if you hose the guy wearing it with lead?"

They don't even check for them is why. There's one character who could do it, as he has a bunch of weapon specializations and electronics skills, but they just bag up everything. They don't give a crap what it is as long as it looks like it is worth money. It's stupid oversight on their part. That's what is going to bite them in the ass.

They're too used to fighting gangers on the street. They don't know how corporate security works. With the back-up... And the back-up of the back-up. And the larger weapons and better skills and armor. The problem is these guys will walk into the front door shooting just to get to their objective. Not for "escaping".

I am aghast that this person is still alive. Granted, hand of god makes my amazement manageable, but still... This opinion is just crazy.

Well, you did say that they just came from D&D land to SR land.

That line of thinking is definitely D&D-esque (on the looting that is). "Sure, just throw it all in my magic bag of holding, and we'll sort it out later when the pizza arrives."

D&D is happy, candy land where the characters are expected to succeed.
SR is hard-times, oppression land where the characters are not necessarily expected to fail, but the odds are definitely against you.

Playing SR like a D&D game should get you killed very very quickly in your running career.

That's how i see it anyway.

When we were still playing SR3, our GM made sure most of the "common" goods were bugged to high-heaven. Although the character i was playing at the time was an ultra-paranoid, and would destroy any and all gear that made it out of a run for fear of being tracked. The rest of my runner team didn't care for me all that much after that, but i was the only one who knows "decking" so they kinda needed me.

Spike, if my fixer ever did that to me, I'd shoot him right there and leave town. I don't need a fixer that turns around and sets me up with the guys I just hit on a run. Talk about setting me up for a double cross... At least I'd be honest enough to shoot the fixer in the face.



Ah... Yeah, nail 'em. Just make sure afterwards they find out how they were caught.

The best solution is still to talk to your group and tell them that you think they shouldn't necessarily do this anymore, at least for SR. Everything else will just very highly lead to frustration.

The DnD thing give me an idea. Mainly to do what we did in DnD to track the person that killed the rogue: We used bound outsiders (elementals) to put together a list of similar attacks that happened, and then looked at where the attacks spread out from. Yeah, we got a pretty damned big area, but it didn't take us long to find the group that did it. A corp could do the same thing.


Fake Edit: on a side note, you can be sneaky in DnD. We went through an entire campaign arc with a body count of 5.

She took a bullet in the chest from a Colt L36 that a gang member was using. Granted, it's a weak gun... But 2 BOD and no armor? That's suicide. And she blew her rolls against it, too.

john_doe - Yeah, a lot of standard D&D fare will get you slain in Shadowrun. D&D usually ends up with you overcoming the odds in whatever universe against the all powerful "powers that be". Of course, in Shadowrun, you can get fragged by the random joe blow on the street if he scores a lucky shot. Just like in real life. But they've had several weeks of getting out of D&D land and into Shadowrun land. I think I've given them ample time and warning.

The first run I tagged along one of my own characters to help point the team in the right direction as a guide (and we were short some players that session; we got up to 5 runners last game, which was hellish to keep track of). Plus, I accept walk-ins to our games, and I have a handful of pre-made character sheets they can use and I just work them into the story or invite them to the meeting with Mr. Johnson. It's a lot more open than D&D, but the stakes are higher. But anyway, in the second mission, I had my character get caught up in a firefight with corporate security along with the team's troll... And my character definitely got shot to hell. We're talking like 6 boxes of damage, and he was pretty much a walking tank of cyberware and street samurai. The troll had to drag him out of there. It was convenient to both write my character out of their campaign since they didn't need my guiding voice in the game (and it worked out very well to have him there, actually, and it was a lot of fun - nobody seemed to have any problems with it, despite my reservations of doing it in the first place), and to let the characters know that if my character was not safe... Neither was theirs.

Yes but that's less fun for both parties than conceiving an ingame solution. Next time, they geek someone they won't think "Better not take his stuff, maybe it'll get the Star on my ass!" but rather "Better not take his stuff, it'll piss off the GM!" I say make it, so looting corpses isn't that attractive anymore either by stymying their ability to sell the stuff or by getting them burned. If you choose the latter, make it so, they get away with a black eye this time.

Depends. After all, every ingame action might piss off the Gamemaster. As I read it, Vegetaman doesn't like it that his players act so "D&D"-ish and wants to tone it down or even eliminate it completely for Shadowrun. Doing it sometimes might be okay, but it's the mindset that the players have that bothers him. It's quite clear then that a nice talk is the first step to solve such problems. Everybody should have fun, after all. If the players have been made aware of that, but still want to continue this behaviour, and they're okay with possible (and plausible) consequences for their characters, then everything's fine and dandy.
Sometimes, people don't really know such things, and it can be quite hard to fathom such behaviour as not appropriate in a completely new game setting with different rules, I guess.

Knight takes Bishop DO NOT READ THIS


I really enforce time limits in my games, they were recently hired to "proactively protect" a guy. IE- kill the mages he had pissed off before they ritual magicked his ass to death. They took a little too long finding the place and when they got there the time limit was ALMOST up(I had been forced to start keeping track of combat turns) They started down the elevator shaft- two levitating and two with gecko gloves- and another runner who had been hired to seal up the place as there had been shedim and the occasional other nasty thing seen leaving it starting to fuse the elevator doors together. The runners decided to abandon their search for the mages to go back up and deal with whoever had sealed off the exit. It just so happened that that took just enough time for the ritual magic to go off. If they had continued forward then they would have gotten there just in time. As it is, the fought him and he injured them and they found out their protectee was dead so they called it off and went home to like their wounds. Now a Master Shedim and a ritual circle have their auras memorized and have a reason to dislike them(they kept the guy alive through several previous castings.

Obviously there is more to this story, but I just was trying to say that there is a serious time limit on most missions in my games down to the point that I track combat turns when it gets down to it, and since they know this they never feel rushed, but they never feel as though they have time to just wander off either.

Chris

Yeah, I'll probably give them a friendly reminder before game that anything you take in this game isn't like D&D. You can get burned. Badly. I've let you get away with too much stuff so far, and you're going to find that doing a lot of "hot shot" stuff will make you some very big enemies. Tread carefully, and try not to loot everything that isn't bolted down... Or you'll regret it.

And if they don't heed my warning, then it's fair game for what is to come.

As an aside, if they have no experience with Shadowrun, it might not be a bad idea to give them the common sense edge for free - basically, when they do something stupid, you just ask 'are you sure?' in that voice that suggests that no, they aren't sure. I am a little more merciful on new players, and avoid nuking them while they're still figuring stuff out. A flaw of mine, I know.

I'd probably have some Lone Star Detective track them down through the people, they sold stuff to, have them taken in and propose them a deal: Do some dirty work on the side, for example get rid of someone too slippery for the Star to catch and the evidence will magically vanish from the evidence locker. If they get caught again, they probably won't be so lucky.
Just a pretty standard idea what you could do to them if they don't behave.

I have done this as a friendly GM, but they tend to ignore my warnings 9 times out of 10. I have one player that once the drek hits the fan always goes "wait, I don't do that" and I just laugh, because it's too late then, chump.

ah, yes, the good old common sense edge idea . . worked wonders on one of my more air-headed buddies . . nowadays he has the best ideas and does indeed pay attention . . try it, it's probably worth it . . add in a little scary when you ask the question though . . a small diabolical smile, the evil eye, the bad voice, the drawn out syllabies . . the works! . . in Shadowrun, the Characters should be paranoid . . start making the PLAYERS paranoid ^^
edit: *grmbl* out-posted <.<

Yes. Definitely will be making them more and more paranoid. They pretty much think they're invincible. Not to be an evil or mean GM, but I have their character sheets... They're not that powerful. And they even tried desperately to power-game, too.

They can certainly report other stuff without admitting what happened. The Star would certainly have people willing to add serial numbers to the hit list for a few bucks. When Aries corporate security shows up to bail them out....

Scrounging is an art form and should only be practiced by true artistes!

I tend to grab stuff on runs but follow some simple rules:

1. If it takes more that 5 seconds to grab and stow it I probably don't need it.

2. Just because It looks important doesn't mean it is.(like the run were we grabbed two crates which ended up full of cyberdecks. This would have been a nice haul in earlier versions but in SR4 they don't t even make good lunch trays)

3. toys ain't worth dying for...ever!

4. If I can't clean it, I don't take it. It ain't doing me any good if I'm sitting in jail cause some Lone Star hacker followed the little glowing numbers to my doss.

I Have found our GM(PrimeMover) keeps things in line by just not giving any one enough time to "shop the kill zone" usually we are running for the vehicles as soon as the goal is acomplished. We have learned the hard way that if your found poking through a pile of corpses the authorities for some reason think you may have had something to do with the crime.(if you can imagine that)

Indeed. It also leads said dead people's friends to believe you are guilty and warrant being shot at.

One thing I haven't read anyone mention yet.. Maybe have the team run into the Docwagon HTR team who is responding to their clients lying dead. If they are caught looting by the docs, I'm sure some hilarity will ensue, and God forbid they try to shoot at the HTR team.
Also of note would be that Docwagon would probably notify local security where they are going to aid clients, and extra security would naturally show up to make sure the Doc's aren't wandering around where they shouldn't.

Yeah, I haven't had Doc Wagon show up. Man, the runners would be in for a bit of a surprise there, wouldn't they.

You know, I think I mentally edit out the existence of DocWagon at times...
Yes. That would be fucking amazing, especially given how DocWagon is armed.

I think I only ever gave one of character a DocWagon Basic Contract. I should really start to utilize this. The runners would be ill-advised to shoot at an incoming Doc Wagon team.

I forsee all hell breaking loose on this next run. It's going to be a giant quagmire and the action will be heated. And knowing them, there will be lead flying... When it probably isn't in their best interest to do so.

What? Told 'em the guns and other shit was useles but paid them anyway? Or got them a new job? Where do you think Johnson's come from? At least this time they know exactly who they'll be working for upfront...

'shoot 'im in the face on general principle' is what you do when the fixer sells you out.



Of course, the entire point of the scene is to drive home just how low rent their reputation is from all the junk they drop off on his desk. I may have overdone it/wrote too boldly how little the fixer actually cares for their antics at that point. But since I get paid to actually do stuff other than write shadowrun missions I guess I should get a mulligan

My players are big on their rep and what NPC's think about them. We play downtime, if you don't this won't work for you too well. Have the player's friends, contacts, etc.. get wind that they're looting their kills and have them bring it up and make fun of them for it. It is kinda silly when you think about a professional killer "looting" his victims.
By the way, DocWagon idea is wonderful.

It's true. Their rep on the street is definitely going down for being careless and... Well, shooting anything in sight. And then looting it. It's bad form for a runner.

If your street rep is impacted, the cops also know. And the people who find runners for johnsons. And probably some corp security types.

Ares won't show up to bail Lone Star out. Remember, Ares and Lone Star are in direct competition for the same contract. Lone Star wants Ares to look like they can't manage their own house and Ares wants Lone Star to curl up and die. Renraku might share information, but Ares will want to keep everything in-house as much as possible. That means strike teams might move out on their own, illegally, to hit the runners, or to pull the runners over where they're somewhere else KE has a security contract, but KE isn't going to entrust LS with anything that might come back and show the world how ineffective KE is.



No, the part about 'hey, this is trash, I don't need it, accept my terrible payment or drop it off somewhere else' is spot on and I agree with it. The 'I just paid your group $200k in cash to do this highly illegal activity, but to recoup the $20k I paid for all your trash I went back and told Ares who is responsible for breaking into their facility, and hey look, they're coming to meet you tomorrow!' part is where I would have no choice but to disappear for a while and kill the fixer as a material witness (although it is cute, and I did chuckle reading it).

You misunderstand. Ares security shows up to bail the PCs out of jail, with a "tip" to the desk sgt for services rendered. Without mentioning certain minor details, like they are ares security. It's amazing how often that has worked in the real world. People never stop to think that maybe their enemies might be willing to bail them out....

Ah, so you're suggesting someone in Ares would, unofficially, talk to someone in Lone Star to add the information on those guns on the 'watch out for these guns' list. Then, when/if LS picks up someone attached to those guns and brings them in, Ares gets a a tip-off on the sly, waltzes in and says "oh yeah, these are our guys, here's their paperwork", busts them out, and right there has a person they know did these other runs, know is experienced, and who really needs to kiss up if they want to survive?

Sharp. I like that.

It's an interesting idea, but unfortunately a bit beyond my current group. Both because of their inexperience for Shadowrun and in terms of the grim-look on the future and corporations as a whole. But, I do like that idea...

Another suggestion I haven't seen covered is that if they (your players characters) are living in the barrens or some other down and out location, well, lots of other people are trying to scrap by also. If the players antics are known and recent target corp hires a bunch of mercs to move the squatters out by force if necessary. Not only are the neighbors gonna be pissed, but when the mercs (who are paid by the corp to take out the characters) start blowing the drek out of their 'hideout.' Said mercs are hired by a Johnson, just like the PCs are so the mercs have no idea who their employers are. And if the PCs are out doing another run, they get to come back to A) their hideout blown to shit B) a bunch of mercs waiting in ambush for them to return C) squatters willing to sell them out to get rid of the 'high profile' problem children (the PCs)
They (the PCs) might reconsider being so high profile, we are ubergoons who can take on anything. If you have a high end merc team take them on, I think they will quickly change tactics, or else might reconsider their tactics with their new characters after their last set was murdierized for stupidity.

All I'll willingly cop to is sloppy writing.


Normally I would see a fixer TOTALLY doing this side deal with a corp johnson to return loot at cost/above street value. And then said Johnson deciding wether or not to ask the fixer for the team for a job (preferrably one where all guns blazing, crowbar everythign of value out of the place is expected...).

But in NORMAL circumstances the fixer would NEVER tell said runners that's how they got the new job. But I was trying to make a point: looting isn't really appreciated. If you want to start making money selling stolen guns, plan a run to steal guns... from teh factory or something. Used guns are worth less than new guns and are more problematic. Besides, if you PLANNED to steal enough guns to make it worthwhile, you'll bring a truck and and forklift... not a duffle bag and all you can snatch.

THATS what the pro's do.

OF course, now I feel like I need to write up another scene, where the fixer tells them since they like stealing guns so much, why don't they go knock off this Ares Warehouse... first they'll need a tractor/trailer rig....

Another idea I thought of while at work today (I drive a forklift, which doesn't require 2 brain cells to operate), is picking up with the idea someone had of the fixer trying (unsuccessfully) to unload the crap. He could have the team take several crates of the lousy guns and misc. stuff down to CalFree, dropping it off to his pal Sparky, to aid in the resistance against Saito. This plants the idea that the local market is saturated with this junk, and if they don't take the hint, well, the Azzie resistance could always use more guns too.
My 2 worth.

By the way, thanks all for the kudos on the Docwagon idea.

I'm curious why does it bother people if there PCs loot dead bodies?

I guess I don't see it as particularly unprofessional to loot, and not particularly professional not to loot. What is the issue exactly. I'd suspect most criminals are always on the look out for ways to make extra money. Yeah taken to extremes where people are looting bodies when a response team is on the way seems bad, but heck I'd think at the very least rifling through someone stuff is a good way to gather intel.

Kill off a character’s contact. When the group investigates, let them find the suspect group of thugs armed to the teeth with gear the party sold off in past adventures. Let them see first hand the social effects of introducing illegal gear into the underworld economy.

If you're paying them enough, I don't really understand why they would do such a thing. Weapons are quite cheap, and reselling stolen/used weapons is not worth the trouble IMO. On the other hand, if they like playing like this, why not. As long as they take care of any tracking mechanisms and hide the weapons in a safe place, I don't see why that would be a problem.



Well obviously they wouldn't do it if they didn't like it.
Maybe you could prepare a list of gear for each NPC and just hand it over to them when they loot the corpse, that wouldn't take too much time.

I had a similar "problem" when I GMed Vampire the Mascerade for a group of players that liked to capture any enemy vampire they didn't kill and literally stash them away in a cellar with a wooden stake in their heart. Killing another vampire by drinking all his blood can earn you some of the vampire's powers, but is forbidden and leaves some traces in the murderer's aura. So they knew they couldn't drink those Vampire's blood without serious consequences, but liked to collect them anyway, just as you would collect rare bottles of wine and never drink them. They had alot of fun with it, and that's the important point to me, so I played along.

Right, RIght, I was thinking Download and posted Enclaves. I have not read Enclaves so I have no idea what is in there. Sorry for the confusion.

I don't get why they bother to loot. When I pay them 8000 to 10000 nuyen per run, they really do get chump change for their pistols. I mean, 20 nuyen per piece of a dozen guns is... Pretty worthless. And extra ammo? Most people do good to use 3 clips per run, and have at least 300 rounds stockpiled (some of them went stir crazy and got like 1000-2000 rounds), so why pick up the extra 15 bullets? Also, it's the whole concept of clearing out everything and looting everything instead of focusing on the mission. You have to get in, do your job, and get out. Typically as fast as you possibly can while completing your objectives. That's the "professional" Shadowrunner way, IMO.

That's their other problem - they feel the urge to clear every room and loot every body. All the time. They're too stuck in D&D for their own good. I cannot press this issue of "time" to them enough, apparently. Until I have it bite them in the ass, I guess.

Looted weapons do make for great disposable firearms. I would imagine that the investigative techniques in use today would have come a long way in 60 yrs and if so ballistic evidence would nail most runners to the wall. But that's just me playing devil's advocate

That right there I can see as a good reason to loot.

having a disposable pistol with someone elses prints on it used in an assasination can completely throw lone star off your trail, and when they finally realise they're chasing a dead guy, you're long gone or in hiding

How about instead of reaching for the stick every single time after a run is over and you have a little time, try laying your cards out on the table?

If they are used to D&D maybe you can show them why this isn't D&D and straight ask them what they did that could get them caught. If they don't come up with anything tell them in detail how they screwed up and what could get them killed at the end of each run. After a while when you bring the stick at least they know it's coming.

A 400 bp shadowrunner wouldn't be a 400 bp character if they didn't know what would get them seriously killed. Change their mindset from D&D to SR without just hurting them till they realize the difference, and when you hit them tell them why. If you make the game not fun (by constantly hitting them with the stick) they may not want to play SR and go back to D&D.

Well they like Shadowrun better than D&D because I don't hit them with the stick very often, and when I do I don't make it obvious - I make it pre-planned. Though I have told them that if they keep stealing stuff they're just making my job easier and it's going to bite them in the ass. It's to the point now where I should at least get a free swing to let them know the difference, at any rate. They're too used to being what they consider "gods among men" when really they are little fish in a really big pond.

They like my Shadowrun better than the other guy's D&D because he's hell bent on making the world kick the crap out of all the players and making his enemies invincible and get all the uber bulldrek while constantly shafting the team repeatedly. The same crap over and over and over again. I keep Shadowrun interesting and bring a fresh storyline and events every week that build. And little events in one can affect later ones immensely.

Yes but telling them what they did wrong and letting them know for a while about the do and do not of SR will at least immerse them into the game. Like carefully after the run is completed say ok shooting that guy was a bad move, and looting his corpse without trying to erase the RFID tags in his items was even worse. This is what they have on you now and this is how people will track you down with it. Oh and remember that time that you looked that camera full in the face and then gave it the razzberry? Also a bad move. When character A decided to blow up a AA corporate building that will get you killed very quickly (killing tons of civilians will get a lot of heat brought down on you.) I'm not going to hit you quite as hard as I should next session, but expect things to get harder from now on. Did the mage clean up his/her astral sig? Did the electronics expert or hacker blot out all the cameras? Did the party show face? If they don't know these things because they are new to the SR universe, then maybe it's a good idea that they should know everything that will bring the beat stick upon the party.

After you feel that they know a better on what they are doing wrong then maybe you can say to them "Ok I think you got it if you start making slip ups I am not going to let go when you make a poor choice in the game." The reason why they didn't like the D&D is the exact reason why I wouldn't like SR if someone always dived for the beat stick anytime a player made a mistake without fully realizing what they were doing.

If a GM or DM has a hard on for ramming the players while making his own "characters" uber then well yeah people will not want to play anymore. All I'm saying is diving for the stick when players don't know what they are doing seems kinda harsh. Show them what they are doing wrong so when they do it again you can reach for the stick and wail on them with no remorse.

Yeah but in D&D the beat stick was used just because the DM could. It had no relevance to our in game actions. We had a pre-set campaign and could not deviate from it. Shadowrun is more free form and interactive.

Note the last paragraph. Some GM's are just mean spirited and love to doll out punishment in huge heaping servings for no real reason then to just be cruel.

I know I'm going to sound like a player myself saying this, but I think all of your problems could indeed be solved by high explosives. Have a SWAT team or equivalent armed with expensive prototype gear that is set to explode once the owner's vital signs have flatlined and it's been moved away from the owner's PAN by someone who is not in possession of the proper password. It doesn't have to be a big bomb, nothing fatal or disabling, just one big enough to destroy the item and scorch the hands and/or swag bag of anyone who hauls it off, and make a potentially inconvenient amount of noise. It won't stop their looting, but it'll make them think about it. Do we have time to check all this gear for explosives? Is it worth picking up every little doodad when we don't know which ones are rigged? That aughta make them loot a bit more cautiously... and the beauty part is, if they ever lower their guard (to the point where it becomes a problem) all you need is another bomb.

Tracers, bugs and tags are great, realistic, and high tech, but nothing beats the Pavlovian response to something that goes boom. Only instead of drooling when they see that nice, shiny new weapon, they will be flinching and paranoid. Which, this being Shadowrun, is not at all a bad thing. Just make sure you're not doing it TOO often, since the spoils of war is part of the fun.

You could always tone down the game.

Make firearms difficult to come by outside of a corp or government department.

Control their ammunition sources...tightly. Make it 50 nuyen a shot. Mr. Fixer only has 100 rounds of pistol ammo in stock. "Mr. Johnson...we're gonna need some ammo...."

This has the side effect of enhancing the value of mages.

If they're wasting time doing more than a battlefield pickup (or working on the plot line if they are looting), then you're not putting enough pressure on them to ROLEPLAY and to SOLVE the plot.

***

Sorry guys, but do you really think a security guard is going to pick up ANY weapon that is so much as RUMORED to be wired with a bomb? Regardless of the "safety" of it, the will be locker room talk of "Ya know, Joe down on East Street blew up when a stray round struck the stock of his rifle. Turns out the corp wired it with explosives to keep it from being stolen. Hah! They're more worried about peanuts than you!"

Gee, that ALWAYS goes over well with people. No corp could afford such a thing...their people would just leave rather than work like that. Sure, life is tough in the SR world, but not that tough.

I didn't mean the average security guard. I mean the high threat response teams who are actually paid enough to be willing to handle that sort of junk... the kind of guys who know damn well the company values money over life because they are the ones who take care of all the company's problems that aren't public enough for the runners to handle.