Just a quick question... one of my players is making a new character, and wants to use a cybered out troll archer. (I told him that no, he could not be an archer adept. The power of forum lurking!) How do you handle bows that can outshoot panther cannons? Are they high availability, (The option I've been thinking of) prohibitavely expensive, or do you just let them have it? I'm a bit leery of giving a player a weapon that powerful in the start of the game. Do any of you have experiences with archer fiends to share?

Would the draw on a strength 11 bow slice his fingers off if he actually pulled hard enough to draw it?

The player is accepting my rule 0 might well enough, but I think he aught to be able to get a bow like that eventually. In the meantime he's going to use throwing knives and baseball bats.

According to RAW you can't start with a rating Higher than 6. (Someone else can find the page)

Once in game, I'd make bow availablilty at the extreme ends fairly difficult. Make them do some runs just to get a hold of a bow, go against another bow adept troll to get his bow.

HOORAY ONE TRICK PONIES!!!!

What does it matter he can shoot a bow that hits as hard/er as a Panther Cannon. It's less than SS firing, it's limited severly in ammo capacity (you can only shove so many arrows into a quiver) and armor is unaffected. So what if he does it. Multiple opponents will hose him. Close quarters (too small for his bow, etc.) will hose him. Situations where killing does not help will hose him. Seems like a street sammy with a niche to me, what's the point of saying no...other than Explosions should hurt more than arrows...silly gamesystems not working within reality.

As for reining the big bow in, just make bows cap at a certain rating unless he makes and degsigns it himself (requiring him to have/develope an alternate skill set).

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting

Bleh, don't dis the One Trick Ponies, archers are cool, and fun to play. Its not their fault that bows are crazy powerful weapons. But there are plenty of ways to handle the use of bows. Might not be restricted, but they are definatly hard to conceal.

Truth be told, no dising coming from me. I like the bow. Big fan, I was just pointing out that it really is only 'broken' when everything is sunk into them. I happen to enjoy one trick ponies from time to time. But yes, the bow can seem broken cause it can do lots of damage from a starting character. But can't be hidden, makes most people snicker or think you nuts and really, where on the earth is a Troll going to find a 11 strength bow, a hunting supply store (yes I realize, the exact same argument can be made for every piece of a runner's equipment, but really, who would have at hand a 10+ strength bow).

Not horribly difficult to make, arc welder + old vehicle leaf springs and some cable will make you a crude but very strong bow *these days*.

Though I have said my peace on the troll bow in previous threads. Maxed out human bow can = a panther also.

Bows don't have a rating per se, instead they have a Strength Minimum. You'll also note that this strength minimum doesn't effect its availability, which is another limiting factor.

Why does the character want to play an archer ??

A professional archer would probably be similar to a martial artist, and unlikely to be a man-who-uses-a-bow-just-because-it-causes-lotsa-damage because of the discipline and training - there are much easier weapons to learn and use, if you only want to cause lotsa damage.

Tho, if you're just playing gunbunny characters with no rationale to their character, it doesn't really matter.


There's a Troll archer in one of the new SR novels, which is done quite well..
..And an Troll archer Adept in [at least] one of the Earthdawn novels, which is quite well done.

I'd imagine that since STR:6 is supposed to be the upper limit for Humans, a STR:10+ bow would take custom designing and making, making it rare and expensive..
..And a great thing for the character to work towards, as would a foldable bow.

I imagine the main reason bows are so powerful is because they weren't thought about very much, with no-one really expected to use one - so the rules weren't really sorted out >shrug<

Really there's not a lot of reason he couldn't start with a bow equal to his strength. Granted he might need to know someone capable of building such a bow or be able to build it himself. A sporting good store probably wouldn't carry bows over a 4 or 6 str minimum because there wouldn't be a lot of demand for anything more.

I agree with some of the points above as to why it's not game breaking, it's hard to conceal for one, single shot for two, and for three it's REALLY distinctive. Tracking down a runner that shoots 1 meter long arrows (probably what a troll sized bow would fire) can't be that hard.

Granted bows do have advantages (practically silent, high damage, low availability) but for a professional runner I think the drawbacks outweigh them enough that it's not game breaking. Well as long as the GM doesn't let the player conveniently forget about the drawbacks anyhow.

You might want to consider a house rule that makes base bow damage STR/2+whatever instead of STR+whatever.

You can always take the signature item approach. It has been stated before in this thread how rare a bow of that make would be. A custom job like this can only be made by a select few people, and that makes it a liability. When Detective Joe Lonestar is looking for leads on the guy who kills Citymasters with an arrow, it would only be a matter of time. Not to mention the specially made arrowheads and shafts it would take to actually survive that kind of acceleration without warping wouldn't be cheap or off the shelf either.

Why would they be rare? Are the Availabilities of said bow and arrows any different from other bows and arrows? If you want to seperate the rarity and exclusiveness of the items from its Availability as a GM, you are free to do so, but to do so mid-game, when the archer's player made this concept precisely because it is no more traceable or any more a liability than a normal strength-ed bow, then perhaps you should have told him so, before the game started.

An archer PC need not really be a 1 trick pony. Consider that an archer is likely to have high Strength. He could make use of this high Strength to punch people up in melee. Unarmed 4 is only 16 BPs. If he was an archer adept, he could have a Combat Ax weapon focus as a melee option and carry a riot shield to boot. Long range - use bow to kill Citymasters, short range - use Combat Ax weapon focus and shield.

I think it would take a custom job to make the bow, just because most companies aren't going to mass produce something used by such a small minority of the population. Of course things may be different in the NAN but finding a bow above str 6 would be a chore in a place like Seattle.

As far as rare goes though.... it's rare for a crime to be committed with a bow to begin with. A bow that fires meter long arrows is even rarer. Going this route is leaving your calling card every time you fire that weapon and it wouldn't take long for someone to find you if they wanted to.

out of curiosity, why would a strenght 8 or 9 bow be so rare? that's about average for a troll, and upper level strength for an ork, but it's also upper augmented strength for a human, and i see no reason why they wouldn't have any at all. sure, maybe not much, but having one (or having easy access to one via mail) would make perfect sense. after all, i'm sure there are plenty of bow hunters who would like to be able to take down elephants, piasmas, etc with some degree of reliability. some of them will be rich fraggers who can afford to augment their strength for hunting purposes.

so sure, you probably won't find it at Bob's hunting mart, but if you go to a high-end hunting store (or a fixer who knows someone who knows someone who works at one) i see no reason why you couldn't have a strength 8 or 9 bow made no problem.

now if we were talking strength 18 or something, that would be tricky. (that's a troll boosted to their absolute maximum, natural strength of 12 having taken the genetic thing plus the quality to be able to do so. you could do an even higher strength version if you want to get into cyberarms with strength boosts in them =D )

This is the key here, made no problem. I'm not saying it would be hard to get one, I'm just saying you're going to most likely go to a specialty bow store and have one custom made for you, build one yourself, or have an armorer build one for you.

Industry is about demand and the lower the demand the less likely something is going to be mass produced. The number of people that bow hunt to begin with is small, the number that would need something with more pull then a str 6 bow is even smaller (keep in mind that trolls are the least common meta-human race). Bows aren't hard to make by any means, I'm just saying that very few if any companies would mass produce them and that very few stores would carry them. I'm not saying that I wouldn't let a character go through reasonable means to get one, I'm just saying you're not going to pick one up at your favorite hunting chain, and by reasonable means I'm not implying a whole run or whatever like was implied earlier. I'm just saying you'll either need to be able to build it yourself, know someone who can, or know someone who knows someone who can.

Other then that, my whole argument about rarity wasn't about the availability of the weapon, but the rarity of a shadowrunner using such a weapon. It's a very distinctive thing and that in itself is a huge liability.

As a hunter as well as a former employee of Bass Pro Shop's Outdoor World I wanted to add my 2 cents. On a compound bow the draw strength and draw length can be slightly adjusted. I would say one or two points in ether direction. The fiberglass part of the box can break if the draw str. is too high. And it looks cool when it happens. However I would say that this would no longer be a problem in 2070.

I really think you guys are being to hard on getting the bow. Bow hunters special order all the time. And as Jaid mentioned high strength is not as uncommon as it is now. I know that bows have the potenional to do alot of damage and we are looking for ways to balance that. However, as long as there are troll bow hunters is 2070 I don't see any problem with them finding there weapon of choice. As to the pull injuring the trolls fingers, that is what an archery glove is for.

While looking at the rule pg 145-150 (SR4 4th printing) I didn't see anything about reduced damage on arrows, other than against barriers. I don't see any reason why a bow would break anygame really.

Trollbane moved quietly behind the parked cars, bow in the ready. Suddenly the lights come on, the entire area is illuminated. 5 heavily armed men come running out of the building. They are packing Colt M-23's.

-Iitiative is rolled. The troll wins, fires 1 shot. Hits the guard with a ridicules 12P. Guard dodges, takes 5 hits off of the 12P. His armor and bod only has to reduce 7P.

This is not a one shot one kill weapon.

Now the guards all go.... needless to say the troll is going to be hurting.

If he has some back up, and he acts as a sniper then maybe things will be different. Then the modifiers from shooting behind, and into cover are really going to hurt him.

Thats in combat. Now after he has 30 seconds to get his arrows back or someone is going to track them back to him. Either the traditional way or through ritual sorcery. Of course the same can be said for any runner useing any gear, normally there just isn't enough left of a bullet to use in sorcery.

That is what I'd do. Every other muscle powered weapon is str/2+whatever why is the bow different?

This always feels like something that should be errata just to fit the same logical consistency as every other muscle powered weapon. I'm not even saying I think the troll bow is overpowered, just that it seems to fit the game better given how every other muscle powered weapon works.

Also if it was str/2+whatever maybe we could see some cool adept powers based off the bow kind of like the earthdawn archer. At full str, they don't really need something that boosts there damage. And to me that would be cool since after the nethermancer the archer was my favorite class, then the sky raider. Damn now I want to play earthdawn again.

I absolutely would have made any difficulty or expense differences before the campaign started. I did the same thing with my 2068 game that takes place in Oakland and San Fransisco.

Part of my GM style is that I do not, under any circumstance, decide things are too overpowered. If I allowed it at one point, I don't feel the need to screw the character because of some unintended effect. The opposition is smarter than most people give them credit for, if it is that over the top, they will adapt. Maybe I am lucky that few, if any, of my players feel the need to grab the rules by the nipples and twist until they squeal.

Edit: I just wanted to make a couple more points. I am not against this type of character, but I would inform any one wanting this concept of some of the inherent challanges I feel there would be in addition to the normal ones of being a shaddowrunner. Also, I remember an experiment we had to see which was better, the strength based archer or the ability based one. We ran some of the numbers and found that on average the elven stat/skill based archer consistently outperformed the troll maxed strength one. The skill one almost always hit and did horrendous damage when it was staged up (unless it was hardened), so the player in question went that direction instead of the troll one.

Interesting thought: You could do that with an Ork, have only one less agility then the elf base, but have a higher strength. With Genetic Optimization(Agility), for 9 more build points and .2 essence, you can get yourself to the same level as the Elf agility wise. From there, you use some muscle 'wares plus a synaptic booster level, and you have someone who is both agility AND strength.

Erm, your math seems to be off here:

Archer troll wins initiative and fires off at guard 1, rolling 18 dice, gets 6 hits.

Guard 1 aborts to full defense and rolls 6 dice (AGL 3 + Dodge 3) and gets 2 hits.

So guard 1 is looking at damage of (assuming base damage is 12P) 16P

He has body 4, and is wearing an armored jacket (8 armor) so he soaks 4 and takes 12P, being killed outright.

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Also, the comparison is a bit of a straw man, since only a combat mage has a chance against five guys at once, since he can level them all with a stun ball. A gun bunny with a semi-auto grenade launcher might have a chance too, but any regular combat character build is just going to be toast.

That is such a great, and very visual, phrase !!

and if you use the genetic optimization for agility, some msucle ware for strength and some cyber-limbs and armor you can do a good mix between the strong, the quick and the tough . . if you know where to find the Brick build and where to deviate from that build *g*
And then you can make him a reasonable well off breaking and entering specialist too, because stealth comes from agility and climbing from strength if i remember that ultimate mundane climber build correctly . . granted, that character will never be one of those hyped up speed monsters with reflexes like a doped out cat . . but it would not fit the character concept of the climbing tank either *g*

nitpick: Reaction, not Agility.

Another Nitpick: At least in my book(which, admittedly, is first printing), Full Defense Dodge is: Reaction+Reaction+Dodge, for 9 Dice.

Non Full Defense active dodge is Reaction+Dodge

Passive defense(what you always get to roll when attacked) is just Reaction

Nitpick Chain: Actually, it's Reaction + Dodge + Dodge.

But that would be for defending against a Melee attack, which is not the case when being shot with a bow and arrow. Ranged Combat Full Defense is merely Reaction + Dodge.

Or Gymnastics

Yeah yeah, Or a Melee Skill.

I used the time-before-last situation my orc (with the semi auto grenade launcher) found himself in. Our team of 3 was regulary running into 5 man squads. Now granted the Troll would have support, 1 or 2 guys, but when there behind you, and the guards are in front of you, they don't really matter.

My point was to say that whatever people thought of the bow rules, they wern't so broken as to allow a troll to survive against bad odds. Even if he brought down the first guard, he is still toast. And I didn't throw dice because I was sketching the argument not laying it out. You forget cover, visibility modifers and such, but that is the same for everyone so no need to go into it, we were just talking about the bow.

Heh, I have a player that is currently using the Troll Archer. Yes, so far he has been doing around 16P damage each time he shoots the damned thing, taking the mooks down left and right. But, at the same time, he has found out that he is very vulnerable to mages and spirits, having been under the effect of confusion and hot potato at the same time. And for some reason, the one mook carrying the Assault Cannon has him worried.

Honestly, the Troll Archer is an exploit, but not one that destroys the game.

I just don't agree. All things being equall the archer is going to have a helluva time. Sure he can take a guy down in one hit (maybe) but he gets to shoot once a pass. He has to have room to fire his big freeking bow, he can't exactly shoot the thing while hiding behind a car lying on his back. Not to mention corps and cops are going to be guning for th guy carrying the bow around town. And how eactly does he carry it around town? You can't exactly walk into Pnumbera carrying a compound bow.

There are some good combat advantages to it, and some huge drawbacks that make it easy for the GM to put the player in the hurt box, if they so chose. It sounds more like to me a GM problem.

I'm not really saying that a Troll bow is overpowered, so much as that I think it's overpowered for a starting character. I intend to let my characters have panthers eventually (If they want them, and are willing to go through the effort of getting them.) but there's already barriers in place for that... the illegality, the rarity, etc. From what you've all been saying, it sounds like the Tbow is a good, balanced weapon for a higher level character, with upsides and downsides, so that's neat. And I honestly don't think taking a weapon like that isn't characterful. I mean, imagine you're a troll, and you realize you can put an arrow through an armored car... wouldn't you want a bow?

What availability do you think an overstrengthed bow should be? That seems like the most reasonable limiting factor for bow ownership. I mean... you can't really hunt most game with a strength 12 bow. You'd pretty much obliterate the poor deer, and anything standing behind it. A bow like that would be for trolls to use in combat, and maybe occasionally to use to hunt (very) big game. Rare and restricted, in other words.

We were brainstorming names, and I thought of Ballista, by the way. What do you think?

If I were a runner in that team, I'd call him Balls, but that's just me. Name seems fine all told.

As for availability, I really feel that a bow should have at least an availability = rating. I honestly think anything with a rating needs a variable availability because it makes no fraggin sense for it not to. I would not hesitiate to go ratingx2 for a bow, but that may be pushing it. And alawys remember, a critical glitch (not bloody likely, but hey, it happens) will most likely snap the string, making it useless until he restrings it and you cannot do that without tools, especially at a strength rating of 10+. Just one more reason a bow is inferior to firearms.

I don't think you can. The modified DV has to exceed the vehicles modified armor (body+armor) pg 161 BBB. A GMC Bulldog (just a passenger van) has a modified Armor of 24.... so the troll is going to have to have a DV of 24 to even damage it. If he doesn't the attack fails. I think an earlier example was a 16 or 17P... which will fail against a Stepvan, not exactly an armored car.

A riot control vehicle (a more traditional armored car) has a modified armor of 36! No bow is going to break that.

But you can certainly skewer a patrol car

Been some argument about this around our table. Vehicle Damage pg 161 BBB says "Resists damage as normal using Body+Armor. But it does not say to add body for armor tests. Attacks modified DV must then only exceed vehicles Armor rating after drivers Pilot+Handling opposed test.

Edit: Another reference to vehicle armor BBB pg. 158

Even that has 20, assuming you are useing the Nissan.

Hmm...actually, I think I disagree with your original assertion then, cause Pg158 in my book says modified armor rating has to be surpassed by modified DV; basically, vehicles don't take stun damage

Read my post above a patrol cars armor rating is 10 not 20.

Nope it's 20. The test isn't against the cars armor, it's against its "modified armor" which is Body + armor. That is the value the bow's DV has to exceed to even have a chance at damageing the vehicle. Which it is entirely possible he can do, just pointing out that it is not as easy as you might think.

Were in the BBB does it say to modify armor by adding Body+Armor? Only reference for adding those two stats together are for damage resistence tests.

as of right now, with arsenal, there's that collapsible bow . .
only problem would be the NOT collapsible Arrows *g*

This is the exact quote under Vehicle Damage, pg 161 BBB lower right hand corner, 4th printing.



In every instance of damage ressistance by vehicles they speak of "modified armor" which is Body+Armor. You have to exceed that to damage the vehicle, and that is what the vehicle rolls to ressist any damage.

BBB pg.158 "Vehicle Armor functions just like character armor, and is used for the vehicle's damage resistance tests."

BBB pg.161 "Whenever a vehicle is hit by an attack, it RESISTS damage as normal, rolling Body + Armor."

Am I missing something?

I believe 'Modified Armor' in vehicles is the same as 'Modified Armor' in personal as far as the Modified bit being + or - AP. ie: Not Body+Armor, as that is a resistance test, not a modified armor rating.

Can look murky but if it works like a pc's armor modified DV of attack does not exceed vehicles Armor it takes nothing. (PC would take stun) If it gets through armor then vehicle gets to add Body + Armor for damage resistance test. Or thats how I'm seeing it. Functions just a PC's armor according to BBB.

Edit: What slymoon is saying is what I've been going with, when says modified Armor value there treating it just like PC armor modified by AP +\-.

I see what you are saying, your disputing the modified armor definition. Body and Armor are both used for the vehicles DR test. This is there "modified armor rating" i.e. you use both numbers added together to determine the vehicles dice pool for resisting damage, this is the modified armor that the DV of the attacker has to surpass. This is why things like the bow aren’t broken.

Now I could be wrong here, but I have had several people closer than I to the source tell me this is how it's done. aybe one of those people could pop up and give us a yay or nay.

Yep, I tottally agree sly and prime. I mean, isn't 4th supposed to use basically the same combat rules for all forms? Why would they change modified armor to armor+body just for vehicular combat?

Edit: I guess if tehy wanted to emulate the way in 3rd it was damn near impossible to take out a car with a gun, I suppose it would be the way Shadow says, but I was under the impression tehy were fixing that. Oh well

Like I said, I could be wrong, but i have been told I am right. But I see what you are saying. Makes it very easy to take out a vehicle though...