Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: OK Serious Question
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
Riley37
mfb wrote: "a guy might also beat you into the gutter for having pointy ears, or tusks, or using magic, or worshipping the wrong god, or for not being gay, or for being a male, or for not recycling, or for shopping in the Renraku Arcology mall on the wrong Christmas."

Now that's the Shadowrun I love: lots of overlapping and interplaying subcultures, many of them interacting with "us vs. them" violence. Some of the subcultures come from traits you are born/raised with and share with your parents (human child of human parents, Catholics raising their children Catholics, etc.), some from traits that you don't share (human child of elven parents, Awakened child of mundanes), some traits you chose (Pink Mohawk).

I'm a native San Franciscan. There are some "out" gays, bis and lesbians in more or less every neighborhood, and there are also two distinct, separate queer-subculture neighborhoods. One of them is low-rent and scruffy and mixed with lots of hetero porn biz, and the other is more where you'd find bookstores with lots of books about the philosophy of sexuality (without pictures), fancy cafes, stores with gay-humor T-shirts, etc. My best friend is an instructor in the Triangle Martial Arts Association, which was founded after the death of Matt Shepherd; he's straight as an arrow, he just happens to like their teaching style... and their emphasis on self-defense skills. (Triangle as in Pink Triangle, the marker used by the Third Reich, equivalent to the yellow 6-pointed star that Jews had to wear.)

The annual Pride Parade is partly a reminder that we got some rights and accceptance, with a long way to go yet, and we got that partly by being willing to fight for it, physically at Stonewall and legally with ongoing efforts, and that some of us have suffered or sacrificed in those fights. I envision a Sixth World in which that hasn't been forgotten... no more than any other group forgets that it's been marginalized or attacked. There's almost zero anti-Irish prejudice here now, I've never experienced it personally (at least not openly), but my family remembers the first generation of immigrants seeing signs "Help Wanted, no Irish need apply", and when I travel to London, I'm mentally prepared for airport security to monitor me more closely as soon as they notice my Irish family name. (And hey, I gotta be fair, I may well have Irish ancestors who raided England, burning villages and taking slaves.)
hermit
Point is, though: if you HAVE all the liberties you want, which you, by favour of canon background DO in the SR universe - then what exactly would you need Pride Parades for? Especially a new generation of homosexuals who never had to fight for recognition will not quite understand what all the fuss is about. Sure, it might become an institution, but all the gay bookstores, gay organic food stores and whatnot will lose their appeal, just like you don't see many irish groceries any more.

Also, I doupt Brit airport controls will harass your for being called O'Reilley. Now, if your name was Murat al-Turk or something ...
BRodda
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 12 2008, 04:07 AM) *
I dunno, shadowrunners going for the spotlight always sounds like suicide to me ... shadowruns are terrorism. You're not engaging in acts of terror and then, a few years down the line, emerge as a pop star(let). People will recognise you. People will find you and make you pay for what you've done. Your showbusiness-y career will be pretty damn short.


Standard corp infiltration, extradition and destruction missions? No doubt it would be suicide. We tend to do much more of the "Lets knock over a shipment of furs coming into the city, I know I guy who can help us fence them for a good price." If we do any of the standard Shadowrun stuff it tends to be far far away from Seattle as we "Don't shit where we eat." The one thing that we all agree on is when you can make enough money doing something else, you stop Shadowrunning.
Sir_Psycho
QUOTE (mfb @ Mar 11 2008, 10:54 PM) *
yes, but a guy might also beat you into the gutter for having pointy ears, or tusks, or using magic, or worshipping the wrong god, or for not being gay, or for being a male, or for not recycling, or for shopping in the Renraku Arcology mall on the wrong Christmas.

No "but"; That's my point. In a world where there's at least one violent group dedicated to almost every kind of prejudice (disregarding more subtle social prejudices), not to mention several thriving religions with these same prejudices, it's absolutely facile and naieve to assume that homophobia and "fag-bashing" has just suddenly gone completely out of fashion. By canon, it is very out-in-the-open, but prejudice has never and will never go out of fashion in Shadowrun. It's like saying that by 2070 there is no sexism (older than homophobia), and there is gender equity in all parts of society. I think the canon existence of such extreme groups like Mutter Erde would disprove that.
hermit
QUOTE
No "but"; That's my point. In a world where there's at least one violent group dedicated to almost every kind of prejudice (disregarding more subtle social prejudices), not to mention several thriving religions with these same prejudices, it's absolutely facile and naieve to assume that homophobia and "fag-bashing" has just suddenly gone completely out of fashion. By canon, it is very out-in-the-open, but prejudice has never and will never go out of fashion in Shadowrun. It's like saying that by 2070 there is no sexism (older than homophobia), and there is gender equity in all parts of society.

If by 'suddenly' you mean 'over the course of 60 years', then yes, I seem 'absolutely facile and naieve'. Because I actually believe change, at glacial speed, does happen.
And if by very open you mean blurry sentences like "prejudices based on sex or race are a thing of the past in most parts of the world" (SSG, core rule books 1 thru 4), then yes, canon is very blurry there.
Yes, I am saying there is little to no homophobia and in society overall there is gender equality, because that's what the background books say. And we're talking about what canon material says about homosexuality in SR, right?

Now, you want to house rule that? Fine, be my guest, enjoy, have a good time doing so. Just don't try to tell me that's canon, because it simply isn't.

QUOTE
We tend to do much more of the "Lets knock over a shipment of furs coming into the city, I know I guy who can help us fence them for a good price."

Allright, then it's 'just' crime, which will still get you in trouble.

QUOTE
If we do any of the standard Shadowrun stuff it tends to be far far away from Seattle as we "Don't shit where we eat."

Well ... in a totally networked, interconnected world, this isn't too easy, you know ... whatever stunt you pulled in Lagos isn't going to just be ignored in Seattle, especially if you hit an internationally operating organisation. It WILL come back to haunt you.

QUOTE
The one thing that we all agree on is when you can make enough money doing something else, you stop Shadowrunning.

Considering SR4's shitty payment policies, why even bother starting? Especially for an awakened?
CircuitBoyBlue
Hermit, your argument seems based mostly on the idea that for a subculture to survive, it needs to be reviled by outsiders. I just don't think that's the case.

But if we assume it is, for the sake of argument, I think it's faulty to assume "everything's better" by 2070. Yes, things can change over 60 years. But there's a lot of concrete steps that we're going to have to go through before our culture will actually accept homosexuals, and I don't see it happening.

For one thing, look at the Night of Rage. Clearly, as recently as 2035, you have people herding other people into camps. This was happening all over the world (except, presumably, Germany, where everybody gets along). There's no way you're going to convince me that people that herd people into camps are going to be near-unanimous in support of gay marriage and adoption. As someone else pointed out, bigots that hate one thing are really likely to hate most other things, too, even if it's not the focus of their wrath. It always struck me as absurd that the books say nobody cares about old prejudices now that there's metahumans, because there's always rooms in peoples hearts for more prejudices; it's not like they have to throw out the old ones to make room for the new ones. Also, the books contradict themselves on this issue, too. They say nobody cares about race or sex, but then they say that in corporate boardrooms, there's lots more prejudice than on the street. Then when you read almost any of the location sourcebooks, they're full of what racial, sexual, etc. prejudice various factions have. And if they want us to believe that religious extremism has survived, they've got to expect us to believe that all of its hatreds have survived.

Canon's great and all, but it only extends as far as its ability to sustain disbelief. In this area, canon hasn't done that where sexual tolerance is concerned. I'm not sure where you're getting that it's canon that everyone's cool with homosexuals (I don't doubt it, I'm just saying I don't know exactly what you're citing). It's certainly not one of the major points that they took a lot of care to drum into us. I, for one, got the impression that the reason they didn't delve into specific RL subcultures a whole lot wasn't because they don't exist anymore, but rather because EVERYTHING exists now.
Daddy's Little Ninja
It problqably isn't an issue of being gay or bi or any such thing. Probably there will not be 'gay bars' or clubs. Just bars and clubs. If your character happens to like the same gender it should not mean really anything in game terms, unless you mean to push an ugly stereotype and make the troll a, and I do apologize you using the term, "Flaming queer."
hermit
Circuitboy, stuff your constant sniping at my nationality please, okay? It's not like I do that either.

Also, I am talking about canon material here whereas you reiterate your personal opinion that won't fly. Now, you're entitled to that opinion, of course, but fact is canon material says otherwise and no amount of sniping at my nationality or tail-chasing arguments you present will change that.

Do you understand that?

QUOTE
Canon's great and all, but it only extends as far as its ability to sustain disbelief. In this area, canon hasn't done that where sexual tolerance is concerned.

For you, perhaps. Just try to remember not everyone is like you, okay? That's the first step it takes to cut down on your own, personal bigotry, you know ... wink.gif
BRodda
QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja @ Mar 12 2008, 08:55 AM) *
It problqably isn't an issue of being gay or bi or any such thing. Probably there will not be 'gay bars' or clubs. Just bars and clubs. If your character happens to like the same gender it should not mean really anything in game terms, unless you mean to push an ugly stereotype and make the troll a, and I do apologize you using the term, "Flaming queer."


No not flaming; that would be to pink mohawk for me. I spend a lot of time with drag queens and crossdressers, some of whom game (but not SR, they primarily play Whitewolf stuff) and one made an offhand comment about how "It would take a real man to pull off a running gunfight in high heels." Got me thinking and Auntie Maim was born in my head.

Maybe a little to much John Waters, but thats all good anyway.
Rasumichin
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 12 2008, 01:29 AM) *
Also, as two state governors and the head of a major party are openly gay (one having won Berlin on a - no kidding - "gay and happy about that" ticket), as well as a number of media people being open about homosexual preferences, yes, I DO think Germany is much more tolerant of homosexuals than the US, where senators who find themselves outed usually step back and withdraw into privacy. I'm not saying all is perfect over here, by far not, but in that respect, yeah, Germany is more tolerant than the states (in all aspects including sex, actually).


However, this does absolutely not change the fact that every large city in Germany does have a "gay district".
In Cologne (which, BTW, might be even more tolerant about homosexuality than the rest of Germany), gay clubs tend to cluster in certain areas, just as indie hipster clubs, punk clubs or clubs for people with utterly bad taste.
This does not mean that there are subcultural ghettoes, but merely that the concentration of establishments catering to a specific clientele will be higher in certain areas.
In fact, many of these clubs will be run by the same owner (Prime Entertainment, you monster!) and are deliberately set up in close proximity to each other and have coordinated event schedules to maximize benefits from synergy effects.
Which is admittedly convenient for the clubgoing type as well as for the owner.

One might now argue that comlink profiles make dating tremendously easier, reducing the need for clubs attracting customers based upon sexual preference, but even if you can tell by reading someones profile wether this person does belong to the 10% of the population who are not automatically completely uninterested in you, it might still be preferable for you to seek out a club where you don't have to scan every single link in the place to find two or three persons you could theoretically score with.

There's no reason that a more lenient society and the advent of everybody carrying a stupid facebook account with him all the time should make gay bars and nightclubs obsolete.
And if a certain part of town becomes highly interesting for a specific scene, it might also be interesting for some members of this scene to live there.

Not because they are herded into a ghetto, but because it's a fun place to be and because it greatly contributes to your overall wellbeing to be able to stumble home within 5 minutes when you got completely wasted at your favourite hangout.


Of course, all of this doesn't matter much if a PC is not part of a gay subculture and does not want to define himself over his sexual preference, but the OP specifically stated that for his character, this would not be the case.
And, with an established gay community, even in the 2070s there will be a sizeable portion of the population who shares this attitude, even if it's just a minority within a minority.
And for a sizeable demand, there will be ample supply.
hermit
QUOTE
However, this does absolutely not change the fact that every large city in Germany does have a "gay district".
In Cologne (which, BTW, might be even more tolerant about homosexuality than the rest of Germany), gay clubs tend to cluster in certain areas, just as indie hipster clubs, punk clubs or clubs for people with utterly bad taste.

Sure, but that's not comparable to how posters above envisioned the gay districts - as a ghetto type of community, not a somewhat concentrated cluster catering to one or another subculture.

QUOTE
One might now argue that comlink profiles make dating tremendously easier, reducing the need for clubs attracting customers based upon sexual preference, but even if you can tell by reading someones profile wether this person does belong to the 10% of the population who are not automatically completely uninterested in you, it might still be preferable for you to seek out a club where you don't have to scan every single link in the place to find two or three persons you could theoretically score with.

Sure, though the average wageslave could save a bunch of money and time just by scanning the links of people he/she sees on the commuter transport every working day and looking for potential partners there. That'S what I'm sying - in a stressed out, profit-maximising society such as SR's, you have loads of people who would surely finde more efficient ways to connect with like-minded (or even keep contact with some sort of subculture, though again, that's not mandatory for gays, as they're not gay by choice) than hanging around in gay clubs.

QUOTE
"It would take a real man to pull off a running gunfight in high heels."

Depending on the heel's shape, it would propably take an idiot. sure, you do get kinda used to these things, but unless you have balance-enhancing cyberware installed, this will likely end badly for the character with the 5 inch stilettos.

Then again, I AM a realism-over-style kinda person, so if you want to ... enjoy. wink.gif
CircuitBoyBlue
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 12 2008, 09:03 AM) *
Circuitboy, stuff your constant sniping at my nationality please, okay? It's not like I do that either.

Also, I am talking about canon material here whereas you reiterate your personal opinion that won't fly. Now, you're entitled to that opinion, of course, but fact is canon material says otherwise and no amount of sniping at my nationality or tail-chasing arguments you present will change that.

Do you understand that?


For you, perhaps. Just try to remember not everyone is like you, okay? That's the first step it takes to cut down on your own, personal bigotry, you know ... wink.gif


I wouldn't have brought up your nationality if you didn't keep using it as an example of how people are too tolerant to have gay districts. You started using your nationality as evidence that you're somehow more enlighted than others, and now you're accuing other people of "sniping" because they're disputing your opinion. But you know, hey, I'm just a bigoted American that doesn't understand things, apparently. And again, show me the canon reference, and I'll admit that a gritty cyberpunk future where hope is rare, but somehow everyone's holding hands and loving homosexuals, is every bit as canon as morph-seeking rifles, magical armor, and surface skimming missles that Lone Star highway cops use on a regular basis.
mfb
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho)
No "but"; That's my point. In a world where there's at least one violent group dedicated to almost every kind of prejudice (disregarding more subtle social prejudices), not to mention several thriving religions with these same prejudices, it's absolutely facile and naieve to assume that homophobia and "fag-bashing" has just suddenly gone completely out of fashion. By canon, it is very out-in-the-open, but prejudice has never and will never go out of fashion in Shadowrun. It's like saying that by 2070 there is no sexism (older than homophobia), and there is gender equity in all parts of society. I think the canon existence of such extreme groups like Mutter Erde would disprove that.

i'm not saying it's gone out of fashion, i'm saying it exists--but that it's largely drowned out by all the other things people are likely to hate you for, and all the other dangers you face.

QUOTE (CircuitBoyBlue)
And again, show me the canon reference, and I'll admit that a gritty cyberpunk future where hope is rare, but somehow everyone's holding hands and loving homosexuals, is every bit as canon as morph-seeking rifles, magical armor, and surface skimming missles that Lone Star highway cops use on a regular basis.

Sprawl Survival Guide, page 49.
It trolls!
Just a general observation from my side, but as long as there's a profit to be made, certain subcultures will to be fed and propagated by industries who profit off those, that associate with them. So even if labeling a "gay culture" to differentiate gays from straight people will have calmed down a lot in 60 years, I can still see an industry exploiting it and exaggerating it specifically to sell their stuff.
Personally, especially with the advent of what the media termed as "metrosexuality" (which by itself seems offensive to me, because it's implying that you can recognize gay men by their state of hygiene and clothing tastes), it has become apparent to me that you can determine if a person really is gay by exactly one thing: What gender they hit on. But then again, I'm a straight white male so I might know nothing at all.
BRodda
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 12 2008, 10:33 AM) *
Depending on the heel's shape, it would probably take an idiot. sure, you do get kinda used to these things, but unless you have balance-enhancing beware installed, this will likely end badly for the character with the 5 inch stilettos.

Then again, I AM a realism-over-style kinda person, so if you want to ... enjoy. wink.gif


"When your shoes cost more then your gun, you might be a Trog Queen." sorry, just couldn't resist.
And on most shadowruns I'm picturing normal runner clothes and amour. Lets face it yet another male troll shadowrunner is much harder to trace down than a troll drag queen. for some things you want to be anonymous.
Pyrius
QUOTE (BRodda @ Mar 11 2008, 10:28 AM) *
OK, I'm starting to get tired of my throw adept and I'm starting to think of doing a troll face/shaman who happens to be gay. The problem is, I can't find any mention if there is a section of Seattle for gay metahumans, or hell for gay humans in general. I've lived in a bunch of areas across the USA and I know most large cities have one and I figured in the Awakened world that there would probably be enclaves in Seattle for each income level. I'm looking for something in the Low lifestyle; able to support a few clubs and bars and be primarily housing.

I can picture it in my mind and I'm sure the GM will let me flesh it out a bit to save him some leg work.

Any suggestions or ideas?


Back in our SR3 campaign there happend to be a Troll-Gay-Bar somewhere between Bellevue and the Redmond Barrens called "Doggy Style".
It was a meeting point for gay Trolls with a "weakness" for Elves (which in general didn´t like to be there at all; and often you could find "used" Elven bodys in the streets around). The bar had a darkroom in the cellar and several SM rooms in the 2nd floor.

So nearly every cliché was coverd there. wink.gif

But it was lot´s of fun to arrange meetings in the Doggy Style with (Elven) Johnsons we didn´t like wink.gif wink.gif wink.gif
Daddy's Little Ninja
QUOTE (It trolls! @ Mar 12 2008, 12:53 PM) *
Just a general observation from my side, but as long as there's a profit to be made, certain subcultures will to be fed and propagated by industries who profit off those, that associate with them. So even if labeling a "gay culture" to differentiate gays from straight people will have calmed down a lot in 60 years, I can still see an industry exploiting it and exaggerating it specifically to sell their stuff.
Personally, especially with the advent of what the media termed as "metrosexuality" (which by itself seems offensive to me, because it's implying that you can recognize gay men by their state of hygiene and clothing tastes), it has become apparent to me that you can determine if a person really is gay by exactly one thing: What gender they hit on. But then again, I'm a straight white male so I might know nothing at all.

I think the point is that in 60 years time no one will give a damn about preference (except with the peopel they are attracted to) so it won't be a 'subcutlure.

"Metro-sexual" refers to straight men who have enough style to avoid the meat and potatoes sterotype. My husband likes to tell of an old g/f who said he was "too good to be straight." He just saw it as being a gentleman.
hermit
QUOTE
I wouldn't have brought up your nationality if you didn't keep using it as an example of how people are too tolerant to have gay districts. You started using your nationality as evidence that you're somehow more enlighted than others, and now you're accuing other people of "sniping" because they're disputing your opinion.

No. I brought this up to show, by example, that 'here in the states it's X, and thus will never change' doesn't add up, as it's different elsewhere. But seemingly, it hit home on your inferiority complex, so I guess I should apologise.

QUOTE
But you know, hey, I'm just a bigoted American that doesn't understand things, apparently.

I'd say you're just a bigot. wink.gif

QUOTE
And again, show me the canon reference, and I'll admit that a gritty cyberpunk future where hope is rare, but somehow everyone's holding hands and loving homosexuals, is every bit as canon as morph-seeking rifles, magical armor, and surface skimming missles that Lone Star highway cops use on a regular basis.

Why again? This is the first time you bring this up? But be my guest: Sprawl Survival Guide, p. 49f. I don't have an English 4rd Edition core rulesbook at hand, but I can look up which page the sex chapter is on tomorrow-ish, if you insist.

QUOTE
"When your shoes cost more then your gun, you might be a Trog Queen." sorry, just couldn't resist.
And on most shadowruns I'm picturing normal runner clothes and amour. Lets face it yet another male troll shadowrunner is much harder to trace down than a troll drag queen. for some things you want to be anonymous.

*laughs* Spot on ... I was just saying Stilettos really make no sense in combat, propably not even with balance cyberimplants, as they tend to get stuck. So yeah, paramilitary clothes that don't restrikt movement and shoes you can comfortably run in are sensible choices for working gear.

QUOTE
I think the point is that in 60 years time no one will give a damn about preference (except with the peopel they are attracted to) so it won't be a 'subcutlure.

Yup. That's what canon says, like it or not.
Riley37
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 12 2008, 06:04 AM) *
Point is, though: if you HAVE all the liberties you want, which you, by favour of canon background DO in the SR universe - then what exactly would you need Pride Parades for? ...

Also, I doupt Brit airport controls will harass your for being called O'Reilley. Now, if your name was Murat al-Turk or something ...


On the former: how long has it been since the Exodus, and how many Jews still tell the story of the Exodus each Passover?

On the latter: You, sir, may be under-informed, and/or perhaps too young to remember the Irish Republican Army bombings in the 1970s and 1980s. I've known some Americans who apparently got treated as suspected terrorists at London's Heathrow airport as soon as staff noticed that their name was Rooney. I have an Irish family name *and* a slightly darker complexion than is common among Anglo-Saxons...
It trolls!
QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja @ Mar 12 2008, 08:35 PM) *
I think the point is that in 60 years time no one will give a damn about preference (except with the peopel they are attracted to) so it won't be a 'subcutlure.


That's kinda my point. There is no reason for a subculture to be but it's marketed as one. For a real life example, just think of punk. The original movement's long dead but there's still los of clothes, music and accessories marketed with a "punk" label on them for pure marketing purposes.
And the general notion of not caring about one's sexual preference in 60 years doesn't necessarily mean everybody will be happy with it. Yes, we got gay marriage here in Germany but still there are still a lot of conservatives who don't approve of homosexuality - the point being they still tolerate it. The way I interpreted the official fluff on it was that homosexuals have the same rights as heterosexuals concerning partnership, adoption etc. in most countries and that the majority of people get along with it. There's still people who don't approve of it and there probably even are some loonies along the likes of Fred Phelps who openly fight it.
Come on, in a world as dark, jaded and xenophobic as SR, it sounds too utopic that for once people do get along just like that.
mfb
that's certainly probable, but it simply isn't how events unfolded in SR. it's certainly not the only case where possibly the least probable (even impossible) case ended up being used, in SR's history. *cough*NAN*cough*
CircuitBoyBlue
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 12 2008, 06:17 PM) *
I'd say you're just a bigot. wink.gif


Yes, I know. You keep saying it, but you put little winking smiley faces after it, so I guess I can't take offense. And don't get me wrong, I appreciate the irony that, in a thread about how overt homosexuality is in Shadowrun, you're flaming.

You're the one saying that the only reason homosexuals could possibly want a subculture of their own is because other people are mean to them. I'm just saying that there's other reasons, and I'm guessing they're still going to apply in 2070.

I'm not the one telling people how to run their games. Someone started a thread saying they'd like their character to live in a gay neighborhood of Seattle, and asking for suggestions. You responded by saying that by canon, there cannot be a gay neighborhood. As evidence that this is canon, you point to whatever p.49 of the Sprawl Survival Guide says. I'll admit, I don't have that book. But if it's just more of the "people hate metahumans now, so the gays are ok" logic, that's nonsensical. I've never known the solution to a prejudiced mind to be more hatred. People are fully capable of irrationally hating other people for more than one reason.

The Sex section of the SR4 mainbook (starts on p. 47) mentions nothing about homosexuality not being an issue anymore. The only thing it says is that there are specialty gay sex clubs. Maybe I'm being a liberal activist gamer, and you're obviously more of a strict constructionist, but I'd take the fact that it doesn't say there aren't gay neighborhoods to mean that, if you want them in there campaign, then maybe there are.
mfb
the SSG basically says that societal norms have shifted such that LGBT lifestyles are popular and widely accepted, with the caveat that there are still plenty of people and groups who are all about quilling the keers.
b1ffov3rfl0w
QUOTE (mfb @ Mar 12 2008, 10:21 PM) *
the SSG basically says that societal norms have shifted such that LGBT lifestyles are popular and widely accepted, with the caveat that there are still plenty of people and groups who are all about quilling the keers.


Why, that sounds ... entirely plausible! How did that make it into a book?

Edit: p 50 of the BBB says "Most people can't quite believe that there used to be a time when their ancestors discriminated against each other based on inconsequential differences like the color of their skin or which type of consenting adult(s) they liked to have sex with".

Personally I think that's too much to hope (particularly in a by-definition-dystopian cyberpunk setting), but even so it doesn't really say "nobody at all has those attitudes".
mfb
i used to think so, too, until someone pointed out that extremes of tolerance could be just as bad as extremes of intolerance. for instance, what if it were perfectly legal for the guy next door to have sex with his dog out on his front lawn anytime he wanted to? what reacting negatively in any way, including keeping your children from seeing it, was not only socially unacceptable (akin to shielding your children from a black man today) but also illegal? there are moral implications to not being allowed to pursue your own morality.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (b1ffov3rfl0w @ Mar 12 2008, 10:50 PM) *
Why, that sounds ... entirely plausible! How did that make it into a book?

Edit: p 50 of the BBB says "Most people can't quite believe that there used to be a time when their ancestors discriminated against each other based on inconsequential differences like the color of their skin or which type of consenting adult(s) they liked to have sex with".

Personally I think that's too much to hope (particularly in a by-definition-dystopian cyberpunk setting), but even so it doesn't really say "nobody at all has those attitudes".


It is really not too much hope. It is just a shift in group identification. A social group is not defined by who its members are. It is defined by who those who are not its members are. The presence of external groups to serve as threats and enemies is what gives the group its cohesiveness. Without an external threat, the group would effectively splinter into smaller factions. The great thing about this dynamic is that a new external group can cause a realignment in group identifications, allowing old enemies to become staunch allies and even friends for a time.

A good example of this is American attitudes towards the USSR and Communism in the early 1940s. Before WWII, Communism was a menace. After WWII, the Evil Empire was secretly infiltrating the film industry. During WWII, the USSR and Communism were the best things since sliced bread. The Federal government even made pro-Communist propaganda films. This favorable attitude towards the USSR depended on the existence mutual membership in a group called the Allies which was opposed to an outside group called the axis.

Now, SR has two huge radical shifts in North American social group demarcation. The first is the NAN war and the events preceding it. It redrew ethnic divisions very simply as natives vs colonists. If you were one of the indigenous people of of continent then you were against everybody else. If you were everybody else, then you were against the indigenous people. Your skin color didn't matter, nor did your ancestor's place of origin. If your people came here from another place then you were squarely with the colonists. It didn't matter how you liked to have sex with, either.
This line still exist in 2070 and it is integral to the political landscape of North America.

The second is, of course, UGE. This really did render skin color moot about as much as an alien invasion would. The group divisions ceased to be black and white and yellow and become human and elf and ork and troll and dwarf. If you're a human then you identify yourself as a human and identify other humans as being human no matter what color their skin is and what they like to have sex with. Because human human is defined as not being elf, dwarf, ork, or troll.

Sure, there will always be small groups of people with more extreme views and more extreme standards of purity, but for most people it is the big differences that matter.
b1ffov3rfl0w
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Mar 13 2008, 03:11 AM) *
The second is, of course, UGE. This really did render skin color moot about as much as an alien invasion would. The group divisions ceased to be black and white and yellow and become human and elf and ork and troll and dwarf. If you're a human then you identify yourself as a human and identify other humans as being human no matter what color their skin is and what they like to have sex with. Because human human is defined as not being elf, dwarf, ork, or troll.

Sure, there will always be small groups of people with more extreme views and more extreme standards of purity, but for most people it is the big differences that matter.



I see it as being like "I against my brother. I and my brother against my cousin. I and my cousin against my village. I and my village against the tribe. I and my tribe against the world. I and the world against the giant firebreathing lizard" -- having some kind of loyalty to those "more similar" to you (or "less different", really) only goes so far. If I'm a white human bigot, I'm going to want to hang out with white humans but will settle for a group of humans where some of them are, you know, dark-ish.

Also I note that while the book says racism is a thing of the past, they have Japanese megacorps (and Imperial Japan, and even the Yaks to an extent) routinely being exclusionary racist douches.
hermit
QUOTE ("Circuitboyblue")
You responded by saying that by canon, there cannot be a gay neighborhood. As evidence that this is canon, you point to whatever p.49 of the Sprawl Survival Guide says. I'll admit, I don't have that book. But if it's just more of the "people hate metahumans now, so the gays are ok" logic, that's nonsensical.

It isn't. Surprise!

QUOTE ("Circuitboyblue")
you're flaming.

I'm not overly friendly towards you, maybe. But by your standards, then, you started the 'flaming'. If you cannot stand the heat ...

QUOTE ("Riley37")
You, sir, may be under-informed, and/or perhaps too young to remember the Irish Republican Army bombings in the 1970s and 1980s. I've known some Americans who apparently got treated as suspected terrorists at London's Heathrow airport as soon as staff noticed that their name was Rooney.

Oh, I know, just, for all I know, the current terror scare are arabs. But admittedly, Brits are really good at keeping grudges, so maybe I assumed wrongly they'd be busy now harrassing people who vaguely look like those who blew up several buses a few years back.

QUOTE ("Riley37")
On the former: how long has it been since the Exodus, and how many Jews still tell the story of the Exodus each Passover?

True, but they're more the exception than the rule. Besides, Exodus isn't just about being neither persecuted nor attempted to annihilate whereever they may ive, it's about returning to their promised land.

QUOTE ("It Trolls 2.0")
There's still people who don't approve of it and there probably even are some loonies along the likes of Fred Phelps who openly fight it.
Come on, in a world as dark, jaded and xenophobic as SR, it sounds too utopic that for once people do get along just like that.

Well, SSG mentions some "flaming sword of God" or something group who will burn at the stake any homosexuals they find (and other heretics). If there's something to go up against, SR has at least one terror group that caters to that cause, blowing up random people to make a point or because "they're at fault" in some way. Those are fringe groups, though, according to canon SR background, and have no mass base whatsoever to build on.

QUOTE ("mfb")
i used to think so, too, until someone pointed out that extremes of tolerance could be just as bad as extremes of intolerance. for instance, what if it were perfectly legal for the guy next door to have sex with his dog out on his front lawn anytime he wanted to? what reacting negatively in any way, including keeping your children from seeing it, was not only socially unacceptable (akin to shielding your children from a black man today) but also illegal? there are moral implications to not being allowed to pursue your own morality.

That's a sweet idea. Hadn't thought of that much before ...

QUOTE ("b1ffov3rfl0w")
Also I note that while the book says racism is a thing of the past, they have Japanese megacorps (and Imperial Japan, and even the Yaks to an extent) routinely being exclusionary racist douches.

I guess that paragraph speaks of North America (specifically Seattle), where this totally applies.

Also, really nicely said, Hyz.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012