You don't seem to understand. Gauss rifle are excluded. They don't fire AV rounds, since a) they don't fire rounds at all and b) they propell Gauss rounds.

This is not about agreeing/disagreeing. It's just the word of RAW.

It appears that what you consider/parse/interpretation of RAW, is different than my parse/interpretation of RAW. As for what I understand...*plonk*

WMS

It appears that what you consider RAW, is different from actual RAW.

The Thunderstruck can only fire Gauss rounds (special ammunition), which are not available as APDS/AV, EX-Explosive, or anything else, by the RAW.

I think with the Barrett now involved, all the assault cannons are a little underpowered. Compared to the other AC's, the Thunderstruck is not bad. But compared to all options, it is easily deemed inferior.

I find it rather amazing that when there's a unique weapon that has unique ammo written into the rules, someone would interpret that as "OK" to use other types of ammo for. That's so obvious that the RAW shouldnt NEED to state it. It's like saying "The RAW doesnt say I can't fly, so I'm going to fly!!!"

If I was going to fix the thunderstruck to make it worthwhile, I would slash the price of the ammo. As it is, it costs only 100 less than a asscannon rounds. I'm not sure how the devs envision it, but AFAIK, all that a gauss gun needs is a solid ferromagnetic metal slug. You could get your hands on a mold, some metal, and a small forge and mass produce gauss ammo for next to nothing. They shouldn't have any complex propellants, sabots, jackets, cores, etc. that makes other ammo such a pain to produce. That's supposed to be the beauty of the gauss cannon. Solid pieces of metal shouldn't cost 350 yen per 10. The thunderstruck should have the same price as regular ammo, or a slight markup to represent how the materials are probably rarer, but still inexpensive. That way, the cheaper ammo would pay for the more expensive gun a lot quicker. And you could mod it to fire full auto without going bankrupt

Well, the SA mode of the Thunderstruck alone make it kinda interesting compared to Assault Cannons.
The real problem is, as you mentioned, the overpowered Barret 121.

The thing I don't understand is that in 2/3rd edition, one of the particularity of this sniper rifle was that it was only using special APDS munitions with the same availability as the weapon and quite a high price (I guess anti-material .50 rounds are not that widespread)...
Allowing the Barret to use normal ammunitions is not only making it way more cheap/easy to use without giving him another weakness, but it actually allows to use special ammunitions, make it way more overpowered...

I don't even see the point in getting Assault Cannons (and the Heavy Weapons skills) when you can have a Barret firing EX-EX/APDS/AV ammo in SA, making it actually more powerful, for way cheaper.

You could also use a desktop Nanoforge.

As for FA, the recoil for such is not included in the posted design but could be included in the Mod, but the Gas Vent options would be out. It currently has shoulder strap and a hip pad bracing system for some recoil compensation.

A hip pad bracing system provides 1 point of recoil compensation

Now if a shoulder strap is a sling? it provides 1 point of recoil compensation.

So a total of 2 points of recoil compensation for a SA weapon. Does that mean that is has a greater recoil than most weapons in SR4? The most it can fire is 2 rounds in one Action Phase. Normally it is only the second round that incurs a recoil mod.

Since most of the recoil compensation devices do not or would not apply having one fire FA most of the recoil would be uncompensated. Recommend a weapon mount or a gyro harness.

WMS

There is one point: it uses heavy weapons, not longarms. Most categories (really all categories except pistols) have fairly diverse options. As a firearms fighter, you pick a category of guns to specialize in based on how you want to fight. Longarms are certainly a great option because you can get autofire from shotguns, and range and power from rifles. But having assault cannons means that a Heavy Weapons person isn't automatically outclassed. You can specialize in machine guns, grenade launchers, or rocket launchers, all of which have their own distinct advantages, and then have an asscannon for backup. It may be expensive and big and loud, but at least you won't need to also take longarms just to have a high power, high ap type gun. Plus, heavy weapons are really cool

Based upon the recent Navy tests, gauss rifles have one heck of a muzzle flash.

Do you know if it was a rail gun or a coil gun?

Muzzled velocity crack/boom, I can see but Flash aka bright lights?

Do you have a link?

WMS

ah here

Rail Gun Link

Seems the Flash is component erosion.

WMS

http://www.spiegel.de/video/video-26541.html

From that webpage Rail Guns have the component erosion Flash while Coil Guns do not, nice videos.

WMS

Hmm that webpage link will not play on my FireFox, major issues with it.

WMS

My Firefox does. Perhaps you just need to refresh.

here is link to video from the Rail Gun Naval Test Shot
link

And one with flames
link

I hate to add fuel to the fire, but I really don't see the -1/2 Armor for the Thunderstruck as being overpowered. as to those who see it as being too powerful vs. high armor military vehicles, please refer to Smart Armor (pg.132 of Arsenal). Any modern military vehicle that intends on surviving battle is going to have that modification. I do agree that the SA fire mode is strange for the gun, and would be willing to change that to SS.

I dunno, that just sounds like too much monkeying for me. If you alter the game balance in one respect, you have to change it in another, and before you know it you have tweaks upon tweaks to fix your original tweaks...

i know, but i just find it...distressing that they would create one line of logic (gauss cannons are SS, -1/2 ammo) and then break that line of logic elsewhere.

The problem with halving armor is manyfold:
1 it introduces a new rule to do something the rules actually do well enough
2 It makes it highly overpowered vs comparable man portable anti-vehicular options
3 it makes how effective the weapon is based on how well armored the target is, not how effective the weapon itself is.

Consider the two contenders in the main book
The assault cannon at 10(-5)
and the anti-armor rocket at 16(-6)

Assuming the 1337 erazer gun is 9(-6), then it will still penetrate armor 30 targets with one net hit. The anti-tank rocket can only penetrate armor 22 targets with one net hit.
With 5 net hits, the erazer gun will penetrate armor 38.

If you want is to penetrate armor well, give it a high AP value. Halving armor is just a kuldgy extra rule to do something the system already does.

Modeling the 1337 erazer gun as 8(-12) gives it a 1/3rd hit damage advantage over an assault cannon on lightly armored targets, but it will penetrate armor much better than the ass cannon ever did (pen total of 15 for the ass cannnon, pen total of 20 for the gauss rifle).

I think one cannot make blanket statements about how unbalancing something is in a specific campaign. If you're running a mage-heavy campaign, where spirits of force 6+ regularily are part of either side in a fight, and spell defense is more vital than ammo, then such a weapon might be what's needed to balance out the unawakened character.

If you are running a less high-tech campaign, where heavy armor is not that commonly worn, and where the runners rarely fight military style vehicles, then the gauss rifle is not really overpowered - mook targets die when hit, but they already die when hit with an AC or barret, or MG. Just because they are "more dead" when hit with a Gauss rifle doesn't mean the game suffers in any way.

In a small campaign, where one player character focuses on the magical aspects of a run, and the other PC on shooting stuff, and both are busy handling their side usually in a fight, the Gauss rifle just means that the shooter gets a new toy, to balance out the mage's latest spirit/initiation power up.

It all depends on the specific campaign. If you've got a campaign where the assault cannon is, with all its limitations, just barely balanced, then the gauss rifle with half armor might be overpowered. But there are many campaigns where it'll be just another heavy weapon.

The official rule already is there for heavier gauss rifles, it's not a new rule per se.

And that's what it's about... make the damage type streamlined. Vehicle and ship lasers work the same as portable ones.

I have no quarrel with streamlining. I just oppose the idea to simply add halvers armor to the Thunderstruck without further changes. And any justification based on so called realism of course.

There is no meaning in 'further changes' because the thunderstruck is already energy point limited, while the vehicle weapons are not, and firing modes are subject to easy change that does not cost any slots if factory-included.

Of course, specifying energy point requirements for the vehicle variants would be a good idea, as that point is really missing from Arsenal.

SS vs SA comes to mind. I really think that should be streamlined, too. Next one would be range increase, but that is not really important. And lastly to maintain balance increase price. A lot.

There. Changes.

Unless they consider the weapons powered by a generator hooked to the main engine, but that would probably take too much energy.

Actually, they describe it as being hooked up to that, and even have rules what power support an engine can deliver.


Nope, as that is possible as a factory included weapon mod 'SS to SA' that can be applied to the large guns as well.

Probably.

Actually, if comparing the Gauss-ratio to the Laser-ratio, the current price is correct for the usual relation between a vehicle mounted weapon and a heavy portable.

Seems taken care of then. How often do we encounter a heavy vehicle weapon not hooked up to a power source that can handle the entire fight it is in use?

The thing is, lasers have number for the build-in capacitors with given power-points and a consumption per shot, while vehicle gauss weapons are missing that crunch.

Ah yes, good old asperger syndrome... j/k I'd just point out that it's not a good idea to get distressed over logic and consistency. I made this point in an earlier thread: symmetry in the rules is not a valuable thing in and of itself. It adds to consistency and streamlining, but there are many cases where it's not a good idea for game balance's sake. "This one rule works like x, so this other one should too" is simply non sequitur. If you make house rules on that basis, I think you will end up with some pretty well crap house rules.

House rules are specific to groups and campaigns, and what may be overpowered in one campaign might be just right in another campaign.

Well as for power sources for gauss and lasers vehicle weapons, GRIDLINK is your best friend.

Yes it is not everywhere but it can keep the energy bank topped off at all times for the times when usage is outside a Gridlink covered area. With the devices avail that spoof the Gridlink system you mislead Gridlink into believing your vehicle is a large truck etc,

WMS

In the same way that main tank guns aren't "belt" fed (despite the rulebook having them represented as such), it's probably a good bet that gauss guns aren't "belt" fed either. I'm willing to just say that the ammunition cassettes or whatever you're feeding into the vehicular gauss guns include a power source with enough juice to fire the number of rounds held in the cassette. Change out the "belt", and you're attaching a new feed mechanism with 50 slugs in it, and 50 shots worth of power.

Of course, if you ever get asked "can i hook my Redline mag up to this gauss cannon to get one more shot out of it?", and you're a fun-loving GM, you might just let the guy roll for it.

This has become one of those things thats really getting to me now that I have the book in my hands. I see its done the same for lots of other folks. Don't like the fact this cool new toy with a big price tag is really a waste of money when you could get a barrett with exex or apds. I've done the math and IMHO raising the AP to -6 keeps it compatible with its contemporaries and gives us a reason to purchase. Just not so sure about halving armor, at higher levels of armor it seems too overpowered.

*shrug* The Barrett with APDS clocks in at -9 AP, with the same DV and a sound suppressor to boot. Hell, EX-EX makes it a SA, suppressed assault cannon. I'm not sure -6 is gonna do it for the Thunderstruck

That gun keeps coming up, over and over again. Is the Thunderstruck too weak, or is it actually that the Barrett is too strong? (Personally, I suspect both) It seems like as a start the Thunderstruck should take it's existing ratings, slap the AV ammo modifiers on them, and say that that's the special ammo type that the thing actually fires.

Well the problem is that the Thunderstruck doesn't really stand out compared to the other assault cannons. Being both less damaging, and having less armor penetration. This combined with its cost makes it very unattractive. Especially considering the only advantage it has is being SA instead of SS. The problem with that is, in the very same book we get the Thunderstruck we also get a 300 mod that makes an assault cannon fire SA.

So now the only reason you have to shoot it is that it is 10 per shot cheaper than an assault cannon. However then you run into the peak discharge battery packs. Which cost 30 per shot for the clips, 25 per for the satchel, and 27.5 per for the backpack. Now you aren't going to have to buy them all the time. However you will buy enough to cover whatever you might use on one run. So say enough to cover 30 shots just in case. Cheapest way to get there is with the satchel which gives 30 shots for the 25 per shot. So you don't actually break even on ammo costs until you have fired 44 rounds out of your Thunderstruck. Then you have to fire an additional 720 rounds out of it to make up the price difference between it (the Thunderstruck), and a Panther. (That is with the SA mode conversion added in.)

So unless you are planning on firing you Thunderstruck for a long time it is more worth it to just get a normal assault cannon. That is before you get anywhere close to a Barrett. Which has always been powerful, only made more so with the switch away from the custom ammo it used to have. So when you compare the Thunderstruck to a Barrett. The Barrett does the same damage with the same AP for less money and an easier availability. Then the rounds are 2 for the Barrett compared to the Thunderstruck's 35 . Even firing AV rounds out of a Barrett is cheaper than firing the Thunderstruck (before adding in the battery packs) and the availabilities are exactly the same. Leaving the Thunderstruck with one advantage. It can shoot 300m further than the Barrett.

So: whomever wrote the barret for SR4 was a cheese headed munchkin? And am I the only one who thinks there is something seriously wrong with a 'modification' that turns any 'SS' weapon into SA? I mean, typically the only reason a weapon is SS is because there just isn't a way to improve it to fire faster.

Its got one barrel and no magazine.
Its massive and with enough recoil to kill a fool (ruger superwarhawk)
or some other reasons I can't rightly explain...

I mean: if this only applies to the Panther, it's just bad design work. If the panther is an afterthought, then the mod is wonky, because it fails to address why those weapons would have been single shot anyway, in the future where SA technology is 170 years old...

I'm having a hard time picturing ANYTHING this should apply to now that I think about it.

"Okay, your Ruger superwarhawk is now Semi-automatic'. That means it no longer has a cylinder, no longer is a revolver and its no longer called a 'Ruger Superwarhawk'. What YOU did, my friend was either go down and buy a rare, but manufactured 'Super Automag' or went to a machine shot and built one yourself. Congrats on the new gun, but don't call it a Ruger or Ares will sue your ass to kingdom come for trademark infringement."


Yeah.

Or come by give you a double tap to the head. Then pick up your pistol and mass produce it to increase their bottom line.

Well, I was assuming the 'purchased a rare, expensive Automag' was the likelier option, in which case Ares doesn't much care about the gun specs so much as you not diluting their trademarked names....

Eh, not exactly. I think you know this already, and I think it's been said, but in case anyone following along doesn't realize: when that weapon was first introduced in an earlier edition it was still stupid-powerful, but also nigh impossible to obtain, and even if you had one it had this crazy exotic ammunition which was equally impossible to obtain, so it was seriously high-end stuff and no more unbalanced than, oh, say, a tank.
Then when it made it to a new edition, no one wrote it for SR4, they just converted it, more or less accurately. And with any old tech being updated for 2070, the availability softened (a sound rule of thumb, IMO), and they dropped that one itty bitty bit about it needing exotic ammunition, in the interest of streamlining. Certainly, it seemed sensible at the time.
So it's not fair to paint the picture of a slavering fanboy rabidly scribbling the stats for teh ubar-gun in a mindless attempt to win Shadowrun. It was a gradual progression of reasonable-at-the-time modifications and concessions which ultimately leads us to....the gun.

Of cource it still has a cylinder the mod doesn't remove that
but maybe you should call you new´gun an Automatic revolver

No, I'm aware of the history of the Barret 121. What I'm saying is that making it easier to obtain and allowing for special ammo to be used in it (instead of requiring a special ammo, therefore being somewhat limited in functionality...) sounds like something a munchkin would houserule, or want houseruled.