Yeah, I was going to bring that up, except I was wondering whether Assault Cannon ammo is considered exotic or not, although I did note that it's not listed under "miscellaneous ammo" in the back, for whatever that's worth. As a PC I'd still give the Thunderstruck a long look since I'd rather have the Heavy Weapons skill than Longarms in most cases, since Heavy Weapons covers things from mortars to underbarrel grenade launchers to machine guns to cannons to rocket launchers while Longarms is stuck in a bit of a rut.

Seriously, you need to try to understand that not everyone plays the game your way. In some campaigns, combat is not the main part of Shadowrun. And among that, not every combat offers the opportunity to use a heavy weapon. Many combats start either when the weapon is not available (in their free time, in a bar, or during an infiltration) - contrary to stuff like force 5+ spirits, force 10 manabolts, or killing hands, all which are easily "carried" where not many weapons, much less heavy weapons, are allowed, and very effective. And so far, having a PAC for those cases where it can be used hasn't unbalanced the game. Adding the GR will just mean that there's more stuff that can be shot down, in the few cases where shooting cannons actually happens in game.

So, claiming that a game gets unbalanced just because the gunbunny gets to shine in a small part of the combat action is rather strange. Would you rather have it so that the gunbunny gets outclassed in those "no, can't bring your assault rifle" cases, and equalled in the "anything goes" battles?

So, your concern for my players is touching, but misplaced. Adding the GR won't unbalance the game, or cause any major shift in power.

PS: There are no immortal gods in my campaign.

I have yet to imply how I play SR, so you're assumption that I compare you're game to mine is wrong. I was not talking about combat, but about balance. Player balance.

To put my concern into simple words: If you give one player treats, why don't you give the others treats as well?

To once again try it with bigger words: If you only favor one player, by giving him something that makes him unrivaled in his field of occupation, don't the other player feel screwed?

P.S.: The immortal god part might or might not have been an utter exegaration.

You assume, for whatever reason you have, that no one else gets treats.

To put it in simple words: Everyone else gets treats as well.

Your concern for a campaign you have no clue about is touching, but it gets tiring to read line after line about how my campaign is unbalanced, and what my players will do when everyone can see you are basing this on your own assumptions and expectations about my game - which are utterly wrong.

Arsenal page 151


The pain inducer is Beam Laser type weapon. Weapons grade Lasers are Pulse Lasers.

To me there is a vast difference. Pulse lasers IRL can be fired in rapid fire pulses, ie Dye Lasers or LAG Lasers.

Beam Lasers are not capable of rapid firing just one continuous beam until the beam is switched off. So yes in the wording above it makes sense that a Beam Laser can not be modded to rapid fire, but a Pulse Laser is done easily.

Also pulse lasers are more efficient in delivering the required energy to the target than a beam laser.

WMS

You assume I assumed, but indeed I asked.

What kind of treats do they get? Do those compare in gameeffect to halves armor? Does it really matter?

The simple fact remains that halves armor remains inconsitent without further tweaks and is bad for game balance, no matter how little you care about it. If you start replicating that effect for other professions, you will essentially ruin your game.

no it's remains very consistant, and really how often do the situations where half armor breaks the game really happen?

There is one (1) player in my group who could theoretically carry an assault cannon sized weapon. He could not fire it while moving. Quite a few weapons he can fire while moving kill people dead. Who cares about 9P from a static position? I see your static Gauss Canon and counter with a gyromounted SA Nemesis. In other words: I let them have fun.

Fact is, you got no clue about my campaign. So, again, thanks for your concern, but I'd only ruin my game if I'd listen to you, and deny my players some fun.

There is also the fact that halves armor is less inconsistent than it is right now.

While I'd like it to 1/2 armor, I think SS would be a good place to have a 1/2 armor + armor penetrating weapon with a good DV. It would still splatter people and would be a awesome anti-vehicle weapon. 1/2 armor + armor penetrating + SA may end up being too good. Except that the Barrett even when the Gauss halves armor and has -4 stacked on that is almost as good with AV ammo.

Lets use the Banshee as an example vs the Gauss it would have 9-4 or 5 armor. Vs the Barrett with AV ammo its is 8 armor. On a hit both of there base DVs penetrate and the Gauss on average does 1 more box of damage per shot. Um whoopedy.

Then again the big Laser pack only 1/2s armor and is 9DV and it costs more than the Gauss.

Anyways whether its SA or single shot I don't think it would be unbalanced compared to other weapons, but I do think it should get the 1/2 AV mod.

A campaign ruined by reason and logic. You are absolutly right that I don't have a clue about your bizarro campaign.

I don't think the DV is a typo. I think, as Malicant does, that it is new tech (and in an abstract system does not have to be consistent with the larger variety), and not meant to be 'the best thing', just 'the newest thing'. It will not halve Armor in my games.

Malicant keeps forgetting that there are entire classes of attacks that never ever apply armor at all, much less 'half'.

You know...


Spells.


Obviously, however, ignoring armor is game breakingly powerful and people will only ever want to play mages with all that 'ignores all armor'.

So the Thunderstruck is a poor country cousin even WITH half armor....

Logically and all

Shrug. That isn't my argument. My only point is that I do not think there is a need for an Errata, as I do not believe that the listing is incorrect.

And yet you claim to be able to judge it, and determine what's best for it, and what will ruin it. /shakehead.

Let us compare - Barrett vs. Thunderstruck
Damage: Equal
AP: Equal
Mode: Equal
Recoil - Barrett, not requiring a gyromount or similar, is superior
Ammo: Barrett, with a larger clip, not requiring special ammo, and not requiring an energy pack, is superior
Availability/Cost: Barrett, being cheaper and more easily acquired, is superior.

So, by the book stats, "cool" factor is the only conceivable reason to use the Thunderstruck (assuming equal skill in Longarms & Heavy Weapons, of which I nearly always prefer Longarms).

Although I am unsure about the balance viability of half-armor, the Thunderstruck does need a boost. Despite being new, it still needs to be usable compared to other options.

Don't forget the barret has a silencer built in as well, and can use APDS and AV ammo. So, the Barret is superiour in AP too.

I figured that the gauss rifle had a built in "silencer" effect since it doesn't use explosives to fire off its rounds. Just seemed to make sense to me.

Hmm I see no where that restricts the Thunderstruck to non AV or APDS ammo, so it can.

Thunderstruck has no muzzle flash, too. But since both the Barrett and the Thunderstruck "bullets" are supersonic, they have the crack that goes with that.

WMS

no it cann't it fires gauss rifle ammunition and there is no other kind of ammunition for it.

Being able to determine what is best and what brings ruin are seperate things. I only claim latter. Which is incredibly easy, since one can do it without knowing the actual people involved. It's like stating the sky is blue, or water is wet, halves armor without further limitations is unbalancing. Really simple. And you cannot disprove it.

I can prove that it won't unbalance my campaign. You cannot prove that it will ruin my campaign, however, and everyone knows that.

I can and I did. It's simple math and math is truth. Opinions or personal preferences don't matter. You might be fine running that game, but it will still be unbalanced, as long as other archetypes don't have a similar halves something mechanic.

I think you focus way too much on combat (and completely forget that mages already bypass armor entirely anyway), and so seem unable to understand that not everyone plays Shadowrun for the combat.

In any case, trying to prove that a game you have no information aout is unbalanced is rather futile. It is telling, however, that you still assume you could tell me.

So, with that, I said my piece.

I could now quote you for added irony. Suffice to say combat is what bores me in RPGs.


Information I have: You play SR4. You use Arsenal. You want to houserule halves armor into the Thunderstruck.
Yepp, everything one needs to toss a few numbers and do same math, that proves or disproves the unbalancing effect of said houserule.


That's bollocks btw.

Do you have a quote from RAW, to back up that statement?

WMS

Look in the books. AV for example is listed as firearms ammunition, but Gauss rounds are listed as miscelaneous ammo, just like AC rounds. And there are special AV AC rounds, but not AV Gauss rounds.

Arsenal page 94


I see no notation excluding gauss rounds from being AV or APDS.



WMS

Actually, a Thunderstruck is not a firearm, since there is no combustion involved.

Seriously though, I already said why it cannot fire AV rounds. If the Thunderstruck could, any regular AC could do that, too. But it cannot, that is why it has special AV rounds that have diffrent stats.

You're riding a dead horse named "Bad Wording". Have fun on that ride.

please look on page 30 of arsenal note the image there

Thunderstruck is under the section of Assault Cannons.

That is your POV not mine, horse gets up and runs around.

WMS

The thunderstruck is using special designed ammunitions.
So unless they add special gauss rounds, he can't possibly fire anything else.

Yes but as you quoted yourself, it fires ferromagnetic tungsten alloy darts.
That's nowhere near the high explosives rounds used by the assault cannons...

since the Thunderstruck is a Assault Cannon then

WMS

RAW states something else.

WMS

The thunderstruck is not an assault cannon.
It is a goddamn Gauss Rifle a.k.a a Rail Gun.
It's not firing tank-like mini-shell, it's using electromagnets to launch a metallic alloy dart at very high speed

Fire. Combustion. Firearm.
Gaussrifle. Electromagnetic propulsion. No combustion. No fire. Not Firearm.

Do you now get what kind of joke I tried to pull?

Btw, the existence of specially listed Gauss rounds fulfills following requirement:


Because it's kind of noted. Otherwise.

RAW wins the day. Thank you very much.

If you MUST have RAW quote to approve, here it is:



You see? It's comparable to an assault cannon.
The damage is slight below of an assault cannon round ergo it's not firing assault cannon round.

Please go and read the section where the Thunderstruck is described. ie it is under Assault Cannons, like it or not.

Two types of gauss weapons, rail guns and coil guns.
link
From the description of the Thunderstruck is a coil gun.

And yes a coil gun can have a core different than having tungsten as long as it has a ferromagnetic sheath it can fire a wolfram,
depleted uranium, or another exceptionally dense metal projectile.

WMS

By your POV/definition then a Ares Squirt gun could not have the "Firearm" accessory Smartgun link? because it does not use combustion?

Does that mean the Thunderstruck can not have firearms accesories installed ie smartgun link?

WMS

Ok, lets take the problem for another angle:

IF the Gauss rifle is firing Assault Cannons rounds then WHY is there special über-expensive/high availability ammunitions listed for him ?

No in this we each have a different POV. To each their own POV/interpretation of RAW or words in same.

In some ways it can/will be like the Synthacardium and Gymnastics Dodge discussion. But that one has been resolved in todays On Line Chat.

WMS

It does not ruin the game, halves armor is at most a AP-10, so about one box more damage than delivered by a sniper rifle with APDS. And that would still be little to justify using a GR - most targets just don´t need that kind of penetration power, and the DV is nothing to write home about (for a heavy weapon). I´d suggest to carry an assault rifle with APDS and a one-shot missile launcher instead.

My game has not changed to gauss rifles and laser weapons, with lowtech bastards using stick-and-shock. One mage exploited 1/2 armor, the others used manabolt for 0/2 armor..

If you don't care about RAW or others opinion, why bother asking and wasting you're own time?

And no, this is nowhere near Synthacardium/Gymnastics. Which was clear even before today to anyone but some select few who refuse to accept simple solutions and need detailed explanations covering every possibility (read: d20 demographic. Yes, I went there ).

I care about RAW just not others POV on what RAW does or does not say. I did not ask if you go back and read. Opinions are like.... They have uses and abuses.

WMS

Well, if RAW says all diffrent kind of ammo is available as long as not noted otherwise and than notes Gauss rounds seperatly, it's an amazing feat to achieve your POV.

Again word/phrase parsing and the results of same, we differ. I agree to disagree.

WMS

you do understand that that line is ment to indicate those rounds are available and have the same modifiers for all normal weapon classes(pistols,automatics and longarms)

Please note my post just prior to yours. I agree to disagree.

WMS