Even making it get all of the molecules in your body would be hideous. The mere implications of being able to control probability to anywhere near this degree are, as I pointed out, obscene.
At that point you just slap a sticker on yourself that says "God".

~J

Who says it has to get them all right? Make each victim try to retain their solidarity by force of will. There are plenty of ways to make such a ritual fall into the "possible but suicidal" category that only the truly insane will ever cast it. Step to astral is more than sufficient for most needs.

Then of course there's the problem that this allows characters to teleport to Mars.

~J

Small points of fact about tunneling:

A)Only works with minute particles: Photons and smaller
B)Only works thru barriers not unoccupied regionfs of space
C)These regions are merely a few atoms to molecules thick
D)The thicker the barrier the exponentiallly smaller the probablity of tunneling
E)Doesn't increase the speed of the particle, nor does the particle actually vanish and reappear, instead its center of mass and only measurable point of reference, is shifted forward in the particle, giving it the appearance of having moved through the barrier faster than otherwise possible

Okay, Just had to get those out...

Oh, and as far as SR goes, there is no reason that since Elementals can go fully into astral, fully into Our plane, and fully somewhere we aren't canonarily sure of where... We can too. I mean merely that a mage could go fully into astral, including body, move at normal astral move(600km/sec or whatever) and come out there, much faster than otherwise possible, all pretty mundane(as in trivial, not non-magical) steps in of themselves.

Greetings.

Kryton-neighborhood spirits drawing on collective consciousness-egregores.

Doesn't the Black Lodge have access to teleportation? Isn't Threats 2 (I believe it was in that one) canon?

Teleportation doesn't have to follow the Star Trek definition. If we do actually exist in eleven dimensions (as some currently postulate), then awareness of the other dimension(s) may allow for movement through them, with almost as much ease as we currently use to move through four (OK, fourth dimensional movement is forward only, but some folks theorize that we can guide our consciousness through alternate possibilities, like white water rafting).

Kagetenshi-on quantum tunnelling and probability manipulation-Carrol differentiates magik and science by defining science as the study and influence of likely probabilities, magik as the study and influence of unlikely probabilities. It's just a matter of 'stacking the odds' in a metaphysical sense. If you want to buy into that definition. I doubt it works as simply as 'Well, what are the odds of a HellBlast bursting from my hand to those corp goons and annihilating them'-SR magik does seem to have more of a science behind it. Of course, probability manipulation could be a form of metamagic...

Transfer to the astral and back, and allowing for the greater speed of movement, would appear as teleportation, I should think. The old Marvel character, Guardian (from the Great White North's super team) used his suit's EM manipulators to render him at rest relative to the planet's rotation, thus giving him an eastward movement of about 1000 mph (at the equator). Of course, he could fly and would be a few hundred feet above trees, buildings, mountains...nasty stuff if he wasn't-splat.

Steam Detectives had an episode where a mech appeared to teleport. Actually, it used concealment and a team that de-constructed one copy of the mech while another, miles away, appeared and wreaked havoc, before disappearing again. Concealment and speed could give the semblance of teleportation (Marvel's Black Queen, Selene, made use of that trick, too). Imagine a small corp trying to scam it's way into marketing teleportation (tech or magik), using twins, clones, whatever-could make for a great series of runs-doing the con, investigating, appropriating (maybe SK would have an interest, or the Draco Foundation).

If teleportation's problematic, what about 'phasing'-ghosting through walls? It could make use of the dimensional shifting (or going to astral and back), without the rapid movement. Would that fit into SR? Would make for some interesting BE runs...

I'm none too certain of the source, but didn't StormBringer Technologies attempt to bind a fire elemental of some sort for a power source and fail spectacularly? Hoping to get back to the original post(s)...

Just my two nuyen's worth, I had to comment-I found the post(s) all rather interesting. Of course, I love the theoretical magik threads...

R

Since when was walking through walls an issue for magic? I would think that's just a manipulation spell. Interesting, however, in that it could be argued as a space-time distortion.

-- It seems the canon rules are conflicting. Gravity Manipulation is OK, but space-time distortion is a big no-no, but gravity manipulation is a space-time distortion...

I liked the chicken on the counter vs chicken in the oven analogy. I think I'll use that some time The problem with our hypothetical oven is that the manual is somewhat vague on what happens when we put our hypothetical chicken in to bake.

With regards to Gate and Teleport: Of course, my player with the mage character wanted to use Gate to open a portal to the sun to vaporize the opposition. Teleporting to Mars also came up. The problem is that for the spell to work, you have to have been at the other end. If you haven't seen it, or know it intimitely, you can't go there with a Gate or Telleport.

Well, what's your definition of "been to" or "know intimately"? You see the surface of the sun every day.

~J

Probably well enough to be able to describe a specific location

If you'd never been to the surface of the earth you wouldn't be able to pinpoint a specific location on its surface from the moon.

Just my 2 worth

With a good enough telescope and patience, you could.

~J

The powerful telescope method was also argued, of course. The major problem is that the surface of the sun and the surface of Mars are big-ass mana-warps, with mana-warp between us and them. Even if the PC managed to hit the rediculous TN for opening a gate into an area where there is effectively no magic, sustaining it would be a quick way to sneezing out their brains, and regardless, the drain would knock them out cold (at the least). It's just not 'cost' effective to open a portal to any place off-planet. In the former example with opening a gate to the sun and pointing it at the Aztechnology pyramid, the mage might pull off the stunt, but he wouldn't be worth much KO, his brains running down his chin, surrounded by pissed-off blood spirits

You raise an interesting point though. What does LOS mean, exactly? Can you throw a fireball at someone on the surface of mars if you can make them out with a telescope?

Being as you need need to be able to see people with original image, I doubt it. Same reason you can't use cybereyes as a mage... I think maybe if you use optical resolution you could argue it, but honestly, it makes no sense...and I think over a long distance mana loss in the spell would make the power fade to nothing.

Also, looking at the sun using an optical telescope you could not cast a spell there. Technically you're seeing the sun 7 minutes ago, you are not looking at that location now. Light has a travel time that mucks things up.

But the same delay exists between a person and another person ten feet away. There's a nonzero travel time from/to everywhere.

~J

@Cheshire Penguin:

There aren't any cannon gravity manipulations. Are you talking about levitation? That has nothing to do with gravity and everything to do with potential/kinetic energy (IMHO - if it manipulated gravity, you wouldn't have to, for exapmle, target and object, you could just target an area of space and create an "anti-gravity tube" or what have you, which, in terms of Shadowrun, is just silly).

And as per the teleportation, I reiterate: you can justify pretty much anything you really want to in Shadowrun in terms of magic (barring things explicitly denied to sorcery in MitS) since no one really knows how it works (and you can justify the things specifically denied to sorcery if you have a mind to, it's just not a good idea). It really just comes down to atmosphere and flavor. No matter how much you actually use it, if you allow "gate" spells in your game it significantly alters the setting and the atmopshere of the game (personally, I think, it's detrimental).

Also, sorcery is specifically denied the ability to affect space/time (p.47 MitS). That being the case, most people are saying its some form of metamagic. Again, since there are no specific rules governing the creation of new metamagic, you can technically do it if you want. But if you look at what metamagic does, it does NOT create new spells that were previously impossible. It, true to its name, affects the way magical abilities are used. So, teleportation/other time-space manipulations are out.

And as for casting fireballs at someone on Mars, are there any rules for how magic moves through mana warps (not if its created in them, but outside of them)? If not, I'd say you could do it, with a powerful enough telescope (of which there probably aren't to many in the world and they're all corp-owned) and if Mars and Earth were both in exactly the right spot (so the person was facing Earth and you were on a side of Earth that was facing Mars). Clairvoyance to Mars, anyone?

Edit: Other people brought up good points as I was writing this:

As for the travel time thing: I think it's probably correct. But I'll bet that if the target's physical and astral template is the same when the spell is cast as when you see it, it doesn't matter. So for 99.9999% of targets, since the travel time is so ridiculously small, it doesn't matter. But for the sun, or Mars, the time travel is significant, being pretty measureable.

That too.
Currently, the only restriction is that the light that reaches your eyes (natural or otherwise) has to be the light that bounced off of the target. Nothing about how long it takes to get there; Bose-Einstein Condensates will not save you from magery.

~J

@Prospero:

MitS, pg 55, top right-hand corner, bottom of the box (Manipulation Spell Drain Table): "Massive Environmental Change (control weather, gravity) Base Drain S.

I'm not saying that everyone should allow Gate, or even really trying to argue it as being a canonly based spell (which it obviously isn't). I suppose my overall point is that, when looked at closely, there are holes in the magic rules of SR, especially when you get to the 'top' of the magic system, which can be used to create interesting, super-powerful variations on the theme. The spell Gate has so far done nothing to unbalance my campaign, and, in fact, since the PCs have gotten to their particular power level, it's allowed us to explore a lot of the what-ifs -- which is, has been, and will continue to be, an absolutely riotously great time.

The Gate spell may very well be a detrimental spell in your game. Heck, I wouldn't have wanted anyone to have access to such a spell a year ago. But for us it works fine, and fits well with the flavor and setting of the game. Don't call it 'detrimental' just because it doesn't work for you.

I don't know if I should open this can of turkey, but another point with the "sorcery can't affect space/time" is that magic in general could be argued to be a manipulation of space/time. If you can convince all the air atoms in a room that they are really a bunch of plasma (fireball) or transfer a mass from an alternate dimention (or worse, create a bunch of mass, depending on what you think materialization is), then a gate spell really isn't that far out to lunch, and is even somewhat more explainable using physics/sci-fi. The magic rules for shadowrun really aren't that scientific.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

Again, if magic=energy and thus =mass, all of those problems are fine.
Actually, gravity manipulation can be explained as long as you're just making a very dense point mass...

~J

...and we're rapidly approaching the finest spell ever, Convert Matter to Energy, 10' Radius. The ultimate in combat spells - everyone loses! Everyone out to about the orbit of Pluto!

well, at least according to my years-ago back-of-the-envelope knows-nothing-about-physics high-school-student calculations.

Well, dunno about that range, but yes, most or all of the Earth loses.

~J

I don't quite understand why so many of you are trying to force magic to constrain to physics. Yes, magic has its own rules, but by their very nature, those rules are not the same as those of the physical world.

A spell doesn't have to worry about physics when it redefines gravity. It just does within the constraints of the spell. No one knows how or why it does per se, only that it can if you're willing to take the drain from casting such a spell.

Spells do all kinds of things that defy physics and manipulate forces in ways that simply can't be done any other way. That's because it's magic. Yes, it's magic with it's own rules, but it's still magic.

Well Dr Funk, as soon as I see a canon release that says Magic doesnt' obey all known laws of the universe, I will agree.
Until then, its contraints are the same as all energy/mass, which much apply to physics. Yes it does things that otherwise can't be done...but in most all cases there are technological ways of doing them. INCLUDING levitation which is under research even now.

Wow, I had no idea that science allowed you to completely alter your mass on a whim so that you can turn into an elephant or a mouse (Shapechange). Nor did I know that it could create matter or energy out of thin air (Elemental Manipulations, Create Food, etc.). And those are just two right off the top of my head.

As for a canonical release that states as much, see Magic in the Shadows starting on page 147. Magic follows it's own laws, not those of the universe beyond the fact that magic exists within the universe. And note that even those rules aren't set in stone; they're just the current limitations of the art.

By definition magic is not science. Or more correct, magic doesn't have to follow the current understandings of science. The fact that the Astral Plane and magic exists is contrary to modern science.

If that's true, until I see magic textbooks that set down the limitations expressly in laws/theories/etc I still think that magic follows the natural laws of the universe like everything else. Just because our modern science can't reproduce things that magic can do 60 years from now, I remain skeptical that technology won't be able to that far into the future.

The sheer fact that companies like SGI(Silicon Graphics) have true 3d panels which create true 3d images in the space around them NOW that WORK means that 60 years from now we will have no Fing clue what would be possible 60 years from now.

However, mass change is wholly ppossibly with modern science, I can burn the mass of a log into energy...Theoretically create mass from energy(at the very least by products are formed by mixing energies)

I can't see how magic could truly brake the laws of physics, it wouldn't go around the speed of light, wouldn't overcome basic obvious principles which energy follows, INCLUDING converstion to matter.
Magic is just energy which can be manipulated by a more advanced version of humans, doesn't mean it can break univeral laws.

Except in all the countless ways that it does, whether you want to accept them or not.

Understand that a scientific law is nothing more than a theory that hasn't been disproven for at least 50 years. There is nothing binding about the laws of thermodynamics, they are just an explination of the observed. Thus there is no reason to force a new state of reality to conform to those same laws when quantum physics breaks those laws regularly.

Thaumaphysics is a valid area of research, but there is no reason why the old laws of physics would provide a hard barrier to magical capabilities. It would provide a barrier to what the scholars are willing to try. Psychology would be the main restriction in magical possibilities, much as it limits what areas of research are taken seriously today and in ages past.

Exactly my point.

What is magic really? What are we doing with magic? Is magic matter? Is there a relationship? What is it ???? We're apply rules that may not apply to something that is essentially chaotic. Is magic something that has a relationship to quantuum mechanics I don't think so. Magic comes from myth and myth comes from ritual ect. When witch doctor or priestest performs a rite are they concerned with the specific mass of a particle or the weight of a muon or the probability that a photon will stike a electron....or the voltage of a point chare...magic is the chaos of human emotion and needs. Think about it.......Magic is the essence of the human spirit. Free from the constraints of science...Isn't that the essence of myth and spirits. Fire created in magic form isn't nessacarily the same thing as fire created in the physical realm. The game gives rules and bounds magic but ultimately with mana levels fluctating couldn't magic do all sorts of things. In Hong Kong the fabric of the universe fluctates so much that the astral and prime material plane. When that happens I would think the laws of physics start to tweak, fold, and tear a bit. I think we're applying positivism to areas that don't nesseciate their use.

Sorry about the typo's...It's a bit late and I've been up way tooo long......DOH!!!

When a ganger shoots someone else are they thinking about wind shear, bullet drop, conservation of momentum, conservation of energy, or anything like that?
No, but their bullet can still kill someone just fine.

~J

I'm a friad I have no link to that. Just some inside tips from SG's R+D team, I's got me men on the inside. If any of you live in Vegas though, every 3 months when Microsoft, SGI, and umm...shit, someone else is there, they have public viewings, you would be able to see it for yourself. Mind you each 1x1 ft panel costs nearly a mill, from what I hear...Meaning the whole package was like 20 million, using the base of their own systems and digital source code and 3d interpolation from LoTR: Two Towers, you could be in the middle of the battle.
Supposedly you can feel the electrostatic charge on your skin.

Kickass!

Read a few lines under my name in the left column, Las Vegas, NV. I attend all the trade shows, never heard of or seen anything like what you are resembling.

Example of canon teleportation: pg 115 in MitS, under True Names, 3rd paragraph, 2nd line. Granted, it's talking about a free spirit. Nevertheless, it's still a chunk of something going from here to there instantly, by taking a 'shortcut' through the metaplanes. If you can convert mass into astral energy, step onto the metaplanes, and then convert that energy back into mass at the other end, you can effectively teleport, in canon. Thoughts?

Greetings.

Instantaneous transmission of information across ANY distance, supra-light speed)-Johnathan Stuart Bell's Theorem.

Six Equations/Laws of Magik-Liber Kaos, Liber Null, Psychonaut by Carroll.

R

JJ Bells theorem required spliting an atom, an ATOM, and when reversing its rotation, the corresponding split atom would also reverse, no mmatter its location in the world...
Other than the theory of it working from 1 comp to another comp directly, it isn't so useful.

I don't mean to sound like an ass here, BitBasher, but:

I know you didn't mention a trade show, I was not implying that you did. I was referring to the fact that the technology would have definitely showed up in other locations like a trade show, on Slashdot, or even a google search. You can't have bleeding edge technology on public temo and not have any oinfo on it available from tech geeks someplace on th web. How that company makes cash, and gets press IS by showing things at trade shows, and to the press. I therefore am phenominally skeptical of any device's operation as you describe.

That was my point.

Check out pg. 43 of Target: Wastelands. <Ostrich> says that "There have been reports of a metaplanar gate opening between the standing megaliths at Nabta."

An anchored metaplanar gate, or some other lost magic?

So, If we combine the "Massive Enviromental Change" and change that into "Massive Physical Change" combine it with "Sustaining" we could essentially have a spell that says "Transform Self to Astral Energy" and have the character Zip through the astral plane with a D drain spell.

Here's the problem. According to physics you change your physical form into a state of energy but according to magical law (as limited as it it) you change your body into Mana and not energy, those two are similar but not alike. Should the spell be classified as being BOTH a mana based spell AND a physical spell?

The drain would be a killer and anything blasting this magically active character on the astral would literally annihilate him or her since the body would disrupt into nothingness when he/she dies or the body would become solid on the physical plane if the character reaches deadly stun. The effect would be quite gruesome due to the actual movement is Magic X1000 M/sec if I remember correctly. What if you take a stunbolt right over the Atlantic ocean and becomes solid? One word: Sharkbait.

Yes, it COULD be a gamebreaker but try to make a mass transportation system for a group of runners, the mage would probably take deadly drain with a damage code around +4-6 / +2 Damage levels or some such thing. And remember, I'd put a hefty TN modifier for any mage or target of the spell with Essence loss. Let's say treshold like the Shapeshange spell and a +1TN for each point of essence. If the spell is an area effect add together the total amount of essence loss and add it to the TN for the mage.

Now we have a TN of 10-12+ and a scary drain code.

Another little problem. How to move people who never seen the astral plane. Do you really want your streetsam wandering away by himself on the astral plane?

Would it be "Teleportation" ? No, you still can't go through wards or go through living matter.

Gamebreaker: Yes
Possible according to magical "law": Yes

What do you think, is it impossible?

I still wonder if magic can create life from squishy fleshy people.

Evil mage sends his ally spirit to go get his enemy's wife pregnant! Mwhahaha

In Earthdawn, a horror gets an IE preggers. Course, horrors are something else entirely.