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Zolhex
Ok so I was hoping people could fill in some info.

What I am after is what to use and when to use it I.E.:

ranged gun shot - Dodge + Gymnatics? Dodge + Reaction? Dodge + Reaction + Gymnatics?

Melee - Dodge + Dodge + Reaction? Dodge + Gymnatics + Reaction? Dodge + Gymnatics + Melee weapon? Dodge + Reaction + Melee weapon?

I know there has been alot of discuission on this topic as to the whole what to use when to use as well as what modifications may or may not be useable.

Is there a chart someplace in a book that has all the different ways to use dodge? I thought I saw one once but don't seem to be able to find it now.

If not then this can be the place to put a chart of all the different ways to use dodge and people can look here and go ok let me print that off so I can keep it straight.

Just a random 5 am thought thanks to all who put any time in to helping me out here.
Fortune
Ranged
- Normal defence uses Reaction (only).
- Full Defence consists of Reaction + Dodge, or alternately you can use Reaction + Gymnastics

Melee
- Normal defence uses Reaction + (Dodge or Melee Skill)
- Full Defence consists of Reaction + (Dodge or Melee Skill) + (Dodge or Melee Skill or Gymnastics)
Crusher Bob
First there are 'passive' and 'active' defenses

Ranged combat:
Passive Defense:
Reaction

Active Defense:
Reaction + dodge (full defense)
or
Reaction + Gymnastics (Gymnastic dodge)

Close combat:

Passive Defense:
Reaction + close combat skill (unarmed, blades, clubs, exotic weapon, etc as appropriate)
or
Reaction + dodge

Active Defense:
Reaction + close combat skill x2 (full parry)
or
Reaction + dodge x2 (full dodge)
or
Reaction + close combat skill + dodge (oddly enough, also full dodge)
or
Reaction + gymnastics (gymnastic dodge)

------------------------

So note that dodge and gymnastics are equally useful when dodging ranged attacks, but vs close combat attacks dodge or a close combat skill is adds twice its dice pool, while the gymnastics dodge only adds the gymnastics dice once.

Relevant section of the book is on page 151 "full defense"

[edit]
Curses, beaten by the old man again. nyahnyah.gif
[/edit]
Fortune
QUOTE (Crusher Bob @ Mar 24 2008, 08:47 PM) *
Reaction + gymnastics (gymnastic dodge)

------------------------

So note that dodge and gymnastics are equally useful when dodging ranged attacks, but vs close combat attacks dodge or a close combat skill is adds twice its dice pool, while the gymnastics dodge only adds the gymnastics dice once.


This is incorrect. In Gymnastic Melee Dodge, Gymnastics replaces either the Dodge Skill or the Melee Skill in one of the other options.

Reaction + (either Dodge or Melee skill) + Gymnastics.

QUOTE
Curses, beaten by the old man again.


Just. smile.gif
paws2sky
While we're discussing Dodge...

QUOTE
Ranged
- Normal defence uses Reaction (only).
- Full Defence consists of Reaction + Dodge, or alternately you can use Reaction + Gymnastics


I have a theoretical NPC with no Dodge skill (and no Gymnastics). Someone shoots at theoretical NPC.

Since he has no Dodge, do I roll Reaction or (Reaction - 1) to defend? In other words, does it count as a a skill use?

Is there any reason for the NPC to try a Full Defense action instead of Normal Defense?
Fortune
If he had no Dodge Skill, he would not choose to use the Full Defense option (that would be silly). He would defend normally using Reaction, which is not an Action.
paws2sky
Thanks, Fortune.

That's what I figured about Full Defense, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.
Aaron
If it's useful to the conversation, I usually impose a penalty to the dice pool of any Gymnastics Dodge Test if the character is in a position of limited maneuverability, e.g. on a ledge or in a narrow corridor. I don't penalize a character if he's using Dodge and not Gymnastics.
Dashifen
I do the same.
It trolls!
I don't. I have yet to encounter a situation where you're so confined, that you can't gymnastics dodge, but "regular" dodge works fine.
Dashifen
I haven't, either, but since the Gymnastics dodge description indicates cartwheels and flips, I make sure my players know that the Gymnastics dodge might not always be appropriate, while a simple Dodge roll probably would be.
It trolls!
Pure interpretation issue, I guess. I interpret Gymnastics Dodge as a sheer test on movement control. Dodge on the other side represents experience (where to not stick your head out for example) which is why you get dodge for free on your melee defense test, but have to focus (declare full defense) if you want to gymnastics dodge.
But I think we've already had that discussion often enough on DS wink.gif
Aaron
QUOTE (It trolls! @ Mar 24 2008, 11:08 AM) *
I have yet to encounter a situation where you're so confined, that you can't gymnastics dodge, but "regular" dodge works fine.

Obviously, you haven't run characters through enough factory catwalks, cliff faces, sewers, or broken or rubble-strewn fields.
Dashifen
Nope. They've had a few underground tunnels and caves, but no need to dodge while therein.
It trolls!
QUOTE (Aaron @ Mar 24 2008, 06:39 PM) *
Obviously, you haven't run characters through enough factory catwalks, cliff faces, sewers, or broken or rubble-strewn fields.


I don't see how that should affect dodge and gymnastics dodge differently.
Slymoon
Crawling down 3'-6' sewer pipe wont allow much int he way of gymnastics, nor will hanging or walking on a narrow cliff face. I think is what he was refering too.

There is always the " strapped in a car" scenario or any other strapping reason, like on a roller coaster. grinbig.gif
It trolls!
I don't see how you could dodge there either. And it's not like gymnastics dodge necessarily means you're flailing around like Grammaton Cleric Neo McParcours.
Slymoon
Dodging need only be throwing yourself to one sode of the pipe you are crawling in.
Shifting your weight and ducking your head while on the cliff edge.

Back in school when you played "Flinch" where someone fake punched you and you flinched either to take the blow ('dwarven dodge' wink.gif ) or try to move out of the way slightly is a dodge.

Often times the difference between getting hit and not is an inch of movement. The difference between a killing shot or not can be less than an inch.
GryMor
QUOTE (Aaron @ Mar 24 2008, 12:39 PM) *
Obviously, you haven't run characters through enough factory catwalks, cliff faces, sewers, or broken or rubble-strewn fields.



... Ok, I'm a bit confused, of those, three of them (catwalks, cliff faces and broken ground) are good for acrobatics while not being good for footwork or diving. Sewers are a bit iffy, crawling down a cramped pipe (where you take up the entire cross section of the pipe), you probably won't be able to do either, but at junctions and other oubliette like conditions, you won't have anywhere to dodge but up, and up, due to jumping, is gymnastics if it's anything.
Whipstitch
There's a tiny bit of RAW precedent for penalizing someone on their defense test for confined spaces, but it is just called a penalty to the dodge test with no further references to the skill being used (the example I refer to is aiming at a vehicle's occupants). I'm of the opinion that restricted movement is restricted movement, and were I to start penalizing people for it, I'd penalize people in much the same fashion regardless of the skill being used. It's all houserule territory and GM fiat at this point anyway though, so do what you will.
It trolls!
Well, I already stated my reasoning for dodge vs. gymnastics above.

If you'd boil it down to game balance, I rather see dodge as a shortbus skill for non-combat characters. After all for gymnastics dodge to be all-around effective, you're gonna need a melee skill along with it. If you're going for a face, mage or TM, dodge can yield you the damage mitigation benefits of both skills for the price of one plus more dice to avoid suppressive fire where the streetsam will probably need to soak.
Whipstitch
Yep. That's what I consider to be gymnastic's Achilles' heel: Good luck rolling Body+Armor to avoid being gutted like a fish when someone attacks you while you didn't have your preferred melee weapon drawn.
Larme
I think the intent in the book is that you can use gymnastics the same as you would dodge. People are treating the vague description of flips, etc., as hard and fast rules. They aren't. The way it works is the way it's described in the hard rules: you can gymnastics for dodge when doing full defense. That's it. You can house rule it for realism, of course. But the RAW doesn't sanction that outcome.

Anyway, assuming you're in some kind of narrow enclosure, there are plenty of ways to gymnastics dodge, realistically. You could drop down on your hands and do the neato gyrscope breakdancer move. Or you could just fall back into a backward somersault. Or you could do a butt spin, another dancing move. Or just jump to the side; remember that gymnastics covers jumping, too. Just because the book describe gymnastics dodge as being elaborate does not mean that people couldn't make subtle gymnastic moves.

People seem to be thinking that dodge is just like some kind of small reaction to get out of the way of the bullet; it isn't. You can't see the bullet, so a small, understated movement isn't going to get you out of its way. And you're not Vash the Stampede, you can't calculate where someone is aiming just by looking at the angle of their gun. Dodge involves flinging yourself to one side, or maybe faking one direction and bolting the other way, or falling prone and scrambling away. It isn't like a quick step to the side; to make that a dodge, you'd have to know where the enemy was aiming and when they were going to shoot. If you knew exactly when they would shoot, then sure, you could do a quick jerk and that would screw up their aim. But you don't. Full defense is making yourself harder to hit, it isn't about dodging a bullet. That's true whether it's gymnastics dodge or not.

But this is all a red herring. Per RAW, when you can dodge, you can gymnastics dodge. They are functionally the same, they just use different skills and different bonuses, and are described in two different ways. Obviously, however, people can't always dodge. If they're immobile, or in such a small space that they essentially can't move, then of course there's no full defense of any kind available.

@Whip: It really isn't that bad for gymnastics people defending in melee. Most gymnastics people will have pretty kickass agility. Even just 6 agility means you default unarmed combat with 5 dice. Same if your hands are full, you could default clubs or what have you without too bad a problem. Though obviously it isn't ideal wink.gif
DireRadiant
"flipping, rolling, cartwheeling, etc"... wouldn't the "etc" generally mean things other then flipping rolling and cartwheeling that you can do?
Slymoon
I just claified what I thought the poster meant.

By all means "Ect" yourself crazy in your shortbus. SR is abstract hence be abstract. Maybe for japanime reasons your mouth can squeeze down to the size of a gnats ball to let nothing in or be as large as a car tire to pass a load of elephant dung.

I don't really care.

Dashifen and Aaron do penalize you in certain situations and others don't. Yay.



*edit for clarity, wasn't meant as a personal attack. ohplease.gif
Aaron
Well, gymnastics, I think, is a bit different than dodging. As most folks with martial arts training can tell you, dodging doesn't necessarily take much space. A boxer can tell you that a flick of the head is enough to cancel a blow. A fencer would be happy to tell you that a quarter inch could make the difference between a void and a hit. A practitioner of kendo can tell you that a split second can mean the difference between a point and a miss. A practitioner of aikido could tell you that the shift of a foot can win a bout.

Gymnastics, on the other hand, seems less about reacting to attacks and more about actively making it difficult to be hit. That takes a bit more room.

Here's a personal example, spoilerized for people who don't brook that sort of argument.

[ Spoiler ]
Sombranox
QUOTE (Aaron @ Mar 24 2008, 03:35 PM) *
Well, gymnastics, I think, is a bit different than dodging. As most folks with martial arts training can tell you, dodging doesn't necessarily take much space. A boxer can tell you that a flick of the head is enough to cancel a blow. A fencer would be happy to tell you that a quarter inch could make the difference between a void and a hit. A practitioner of kendo can tell you that a split second can mean the difference between a point and a miss. A practitioner of aikido could tell you that the shift of a foot can win a bout.

Gymnastics, on the other hand, seems less about reacting to attacks and more about actively making it difficult to be hit. That takes a bit more room.

Here's a personal example, spoilerized for people who don't brook that sort of argument.

[ Spoiler ]


This is probably the best description I've ever heard of the difference between dodge and gymnastic dodge. Reactive avoidance versus deliberate attempt to make a harder target. I'm a fan of both sides of things. I have characters who flip, roll, and spin about til up close, at which point they turn into parry monsters and I have characters who shift an inch to the left like they saw the attack coming a mile off. My only wish is that there were more ways to increase dodge than move by wires and reflex recorder, since it's so easy to get a +5 gymnastics with a reflex recorder, synthacardium, and enhanced articulation.

P.S. I'm glad that combat archery didn't get popular back in the day when I was still doing SCA combat. I would have made a big lumbering freaking target.
Larme
QUOTE (Aaron @ Mar 24 2008, 02:35 PM) *
Well, gymnastics, I think, is a bit different than dodging. As most folks with martial arts training can tell you, dodging doesn't necessarily take much space. A boxer can tell you that a flick of the head is enough to cancel a blow. A fencer would be happy to tell you that a quarter inch could make the difference between a void and a hit. A practitioner of kendo can tell you that a split second can mean the difference between a point and a miss. A practitioner of aikido could tell you that the shift of a foot can win a bout.


Gah! You didn't carefully read and respond to part of my post! How dare you wink.gif

My response to this is: you can't dodge bullets. People cannot see bullets, and people cannot move fast enough to get out of their way. Arrows? Sure. Fists? Of course. But when using the Dodge skill against guns, you can't just make a quick quarter inch move to avoid the attack. That would require you to know exactly where and when the bullet was coming, which is something you don't know.

SR4 does give a pretty good, maybe even unrealistically good chance for a full defensing person to evade a bullet. But it isn't the Matrix (the movie nyahnyah.gif). You aren't dodging each shot one at a time, whether you use Gymnastics or Dodge. Dodge against firearms is not just a subtle twitch, it's an all out "oh crap, bullets!" kind of thing. That's the only way for it to make sense. Dodge against bullets could involve dropping prone, ducking, doing a zig-zag run, leaping haphazardly out of the way... You don't just step to the side, because you don't know when and where you're about to get shot. Gymnastics is similar when dodging bullets, it's just a little more elaborate -- instead of leaping haphazardly, you might to a front handspring, or a dive roll. Instead of dropping prone, you might fall backwards, then spring back up doing that whole 'get up without hands' thing, whatever it's called. But in no case are you watching the bullets coming in slow motion and just stepping out of their way. Not with Dodge, not with anything. Against bullets, both skills are just ways of making yourself a harder target to hit.
Aaron
QUOTE (Larme @ Mar 24 2008, 10:00 PM) *
My response to this is: you can't dodge bullets. People cannot see bullets, and people cannot move fast enough to get out of their way. Arrows? Sure. Fists? Of course. But when using the Dodge skill against guns, you can't just make a quick quarter inch move to avoid the attack. That would require you to know exactly where and when the bullet was coming, which is something you don't know.

If only there were some way to see where the gun was being aimed before the shot. Or if there were some way to know that the likely target was one's head, center of mass, or hip, and move accordingly. Of if there was a technique of hitting the ground or taking cover that was accepted as the most efficient and practiced by military forces around the world.

So, yeah. I guess you can't dodge bullets. Unless they're thrown at you.
Jhaiisiin
Power throw missile adepts throw bullets that kill, right? So technically you *can* dodge bullets.

(Yes, I'm being an ornery smart ass and I know it)
Zolhex
So lets see if I have all the different ways of doing dodge right.

Ranged
- Normal defense uses Reaction.

- Full Defense consists of Reaction + Dodge
- Full Defense consists of Reaction + Gymnastics

Melee
- Normal defense uses Reaction + Dodge
- Normal defense uses Reaction + Melee Skill

- Full Defense consists of Reaction + Dodge + Dodge
- Full Defense consists of Reaction + Dodge + Melee Skill
- Full Defense consists of Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics
- Full Defense consists of Reaction + Melee Skill + Melee Skill
- Full Defense consists of Reaction + Melee Skill + Gymnastics
Fortune
Looks good. smile.gif
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (Aaron @ Mar 24 2008, 10:41 PM) *
If only there were some way to see where the gun was being aimed before the shot. Or if there were some way to know that the likely target was one's head, center of mass, or hip, and move accordingly. Of if there was a technique of hitting the ground or taking cover that was accepted as the most efficient and practiced by military forces around the world.

So, yeah. I guess you can't dodge bullets. Unless they're thrown at you.


Err.... we are talking about in the context of penalties for gymnastic dodge but not regular dodge in confined spaces. We all agree that taking cover or hitting the ground is a good use of 'dodge' - but if you can do that you can clearly tumble into cover or whatever and gymnastics dodge. Same thing goes for the minimising your exposure to the shooter etc. Thats all physical movements that 'gymnastics' can probably fill in for!

So yes, we all agree you can 'dodge' bullets by getting the hell out of the way. The only point of disagreement is whether you can get the hell out of the way gymnastically whenever you can conventionally.

The extremely deft boxing style deflections are obviously completely off the cards incidently, unless you are seriously proposing you can tell me to an inch where I guy who is shooting at you is actually going to hit, so your example supports that, which enhances the dodge == gymnastics case.
paws2sky
QUOTE (Aaron @ Mar 24 2008, 10:41 PM) *
If only there were some way to see where the gun was being aimed before the shot. Or if there were some way to know that the likely target was one's head, center of mass, or hip, and move accordingly. Of if there was a technique of hitting the ground or taking cover that was accepted as the most efficient and practiced by military forces around the world.


I wonder how many smartgun users have found themselves facing impossibly dodge-y ninjas? I mean, the smartgun is feeding all the telemetry data to the user... That info could be rerouted to the target by a hacker, so they could actually see where the bullets were going to go.

Similarly, I suspect you could always spoof a smartgun's data couldn't you? Feed false info to the user, making them always miss (until they wised up and turned off the smartlink).

Both of those ideas assume the user is foolish enough to run wireless (instead of skinlinked). And I suppose they'd need a vaguely hackable commlink too...
Cthulhudreams
I'd be surprised if you could find a single character in 'Welcome to the Shadows' that didn't skinlink their smartgun and thus buy hacking immunity for 50 yens.
paws2sky
Well, yeah. I was really thinking opposition. I doubt there are many runners who are dim enough to not skinlink their weapons (and other important gear).

I could totally see some corporate bean counter saying, "Why on Earth would you need skinlinks? Haven't you ever heard? Everything is wwireless these days." as he denied the security captain's request to spend an extra 250 nuyen.gif per guard to upgrade their goggles, two guns, commlink, and biomonitor.

Larme
QUOTE (Aaron @ Mar 24 2008, 10:41 PM) *
If only there were some way to see where the gun was being aimed before the shot. Or if there were some way to know that the likely target was one's head, center of mass, or hip, and move accordingly. Of if there was a technique of hitting the ground or taking cover that was accepted as the most efficient and practiced by military forces around the world.

So, yeah. I guess you can't dodge bullets. Unless they're thrown at you.


What I mean is you can't do a matrix style, "Oh, a bullet," and then move exactly out of the way. Nor can you do a Vash the Stampede hyper intelligent ballistics calculation and instantly determine from the gun's angle where the bullet will go. You can certainly predict that someone pointing a gun at you will be trying to hit your head or central mass, but you don't know exactly when and where the bullets are coming, so you can't dodge them by just stepping to the side. You just have to use the techniques "practiced by military forces around the world," which are about making yourself a harder target, not dodging each bullet as it comes.

Now, I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me on this or not, because the first paragraph seems to be full of unnecessary sarcasm, but the second sentence agrees with me.

@Paws2sky:

I think that would definitely help... In effect, a hacked smartlink could create an AR "laser" that shows you exactly where they're aiming, so you know when they effectively have a bead on you and when they don't. But you'd still want to just make yourself a hard target rather than try to dodge bullets like they were punches in a boxing match.
b1ffov3rfl0w
QUOTE (Larme @ Mar 25 2008, 08:31 AM) *
Nor can you do a Vash the Stampede hyper intelligent ballistics calculation and instantly determine from the gun's angle where the bullet will go.


You mean like looking at where something is pointing? I think you can do that. If the opening of the barrel looks like a circle, the gun is pointed at your eyes, etc. From there it's a simple matter of:

Is the gun pointed at me? <---
| | |
| NO |YES |
V V /
good move! -----/

The human brain is actually pretty good at approximating "ballistics" and similar mechanics type stuff without doing a lot of formal calculations. Try throwing a ball to a ten year old -- he'll probably catch it. Ask a ten year old to solve a freshman physics problem where a ball is thrown, and he probably won't even try.
Jhaiisiin
Anyone ever watch the American Gladiators event Assault? People get hit by speeding tennis balls. These aren't bullets, and they are sure as hell using full defense (Reaction + dodge) to get out of the way. Sometimes it works, sometimes not so much. These are projectiles that are significantly larger than bullets, and are travelling at no more than 1/6th the speed (maybe less), and people still can't get out of the way in time. It's something to consider when thinking about how likely it is to dodge a bullet.
Aaron
Also, I just realized. When I went to the local laser tag place, I could dodge lasers! Of course, it was by watching where they were about to shoot ... er ... tag, and not waiting until the beam was in the air, but there you go.
Cthulhudreams
We all KNOW the 'not being there' plan is a great application of dodge.

What we want to know is how you can do the 'not being there' plan while in a tight confines, but you can no do the 'tumble out of the way' plan.

When I play laser tag the most effecitve method of 'dodging' is to drop the sensors behind cover - highly effective, but requires freedom of movement, and fails to hte 'tumble into cover' counter example.
Larme
QUOTE (b1ffov3rfl0w @ Mar 25 2008, 06:11 PM) *
You mean like looking at where something is pointing? I think you can do that.


Of course you can do that. What you can't know is exactly what trajectory the bullet will take, or exactly when you need to move to throw it off. Maybe, maaaybe if it was just you and a guy with a gun, facing off one-on-one, you could carefully watch his barrel and determine exactly where it was pointed, and then you'd know when he had a bead on you and when he didn't. But that's such an unrealistic circumstance that it's not worth mentioning. Combat involves more than one thing happening, more often than not. Three people could shoot at you from three different places where you couldn't possibly see all three of them, but you could still use your Dodge skill against all of them. Dodge does not depend on knowing exactly where the enemy's gun is pointed. And knowing that fact does not provide any bonus to dodge, per RAW. Therefore, logically, Dodge is not performed based on watching where the enemy aims.

Even if you did know the trajectory (say they had a laser sight and you could see the dot on yourself), that wouldn't be enough. Vash the Stampede could not only calculate the trajectory of any bullet instantly, he could also react fast enough to dodge the bullets before they got to him. I realize that people in SR can have superhuman reactions, too, but they don't get that good. A human with maximum natural reaction can't dodge a bullet right as it flies towards him. So what about a human with 9 reaction, the maximum augmented stat? With a difference of just 3 dice, I don't think that's going to suddenly give you the ability to act like Vash or Neo. The only difference is you need less reaction time between "oh no, guns!" and "leap behind the dumpster!" than an unagumented person. That is reflected in the single additional hit, on average.

The point of the whole thing is that you don't dodge bullets like they were rocks being thrown at you. You can't watch them fly at you and move slightly to the side. Even enhanced humans aren't that fast, just by looking at the numbers involved. Dodge against firearms works very much like Gymnastics against firearms: make yourself a harder target. And according to people with real military experience on this board, that's exactly how they do it. They don't watch the enemy's gun barrel, anticipate where they're going to shoot, and try to move a step in the wrong direction at the exact right second. That's impossible. What they do is they just move, preferably to a place with cover, and don't stop moving and throwing off the enemy's aim until they're safe. When you use Dodge, that might involve a wild lunge in one direction, or a zig zaggy run, or something. Gymnastics would be the same deal, except instead of a lunge it's a somersault, and instead of a run it's a handspring. Dodge is not a magical bullet dodging technique, it is just a more pragmatic, but no more effective, form of defense than Gymnastics.
Tunnel Rat
I think that what gets forgotten here is that Gymnastics is a full defense option only. This means that if a car tries to run you down while you're crossing the street, you can't use a gymnastic dodge. Well, not unless you normally do cartwheels while crossing the road. I would think that there are several instances where you *should* be able to dodge something (not necessarily an attack), but couldn't use gymnastics because you weren't prepared.

Also, there are some times when dodge is better than melee for defense.

1. When you *CAN'T* block the attack. (Such as a large cybered troll swinging a hunk of concrete on a metal rod)
2. When blocking the attack is pointless. (Certain elemental effects, some touch spells, and other situations like swinging powerlines.)
3. When blocking would be problematic. (Chains, for instance, tend to wrap around the object that blocks them.)

GryMor
QUOTE (Tunnel Rat @ Mar 26 2008, 07:20 PM) *
I would think that there are several instances where you *should* be able to dodge something (not necessarily an attack), but couldn't use gymnastics because you weren't prepared.


Uhm, you can go full defense (gymnastic dodge) as an interupt action, and circumstances that would prevent that would also prevent rolling any defense at all... It just takes more time to recover from the full defense than it does from the normal defense.

In the specific case of a car trying to run you down, you may want to do something like Reaction + Unarmed + Gymnastics to vault the damned thing, better to glance off the top if you don't get enough hits than diving to the side and geting your legs run over...
Larme
QUOTE (Tunnel Rat @ Mar 26 2008, 07:20 PM) *
I think that what gets forgotten here is that Gymnastics is a full defense option only. This means that if a car tries to run you down while you're crossing the street, you can't use a gymnastic dodge. Well, not unless you normally do cartwheels while crossing the road. I would think that there are several instances where you *should* be able to dodge something (not necessarily an attack), but couldn't use gymnastics because you weren't prepared.

Also, there are some times when dodge is better than melee for defense.

1. When you *CAN'T* block the attack. (Such as a large cybered troll swinging a hunk of concrete on a metal rod)
2. When blocking the attack is pointless. (Certain elemental effects, some touch spells, and other situations like swinging powerlines.)
3. When blocking would be problematic. (Chains, for instance, tend to wrap around the object that blocks them.)


If you can use full defense, you can use gymnastics. You can only use full defense when you're prepared, i.e. when you aren't surprised. You can neither dodge nor gymastics dodge against something that surprises you. So to the extent you're saying that there are some situations, per RAW, where you can full defense dodge, but not gymnastic dodge, you're wrong.

Interestingly, the car situation might be unique - the rules don't say anything about full defense, they just tell you to roll reaction + dodge. So arguably you can't gymnastics do avoid a car ramming you, but that has nothing to do with preparedness, it's just what the rules say in that particular case.

On when dodge is better than melee for defense... I don't think that has anything to do with the gymnastics argument. But to address your points, 1) you can always block a melee attack. The RAW does not give instances where block doesn't help you. That might be dumb, like when a dragon tries to bite you, but it's the rules. And the rules especially don't change just because a troll is the one attacking you. 2) If you block the attack, it doesn't hit you and you don't take damage. If someone is trying to touch-spell you, blocking would bat their hands away and prevent them from using the spell. If the attack is elemental, you'd have to assume that any contact from blocking was too brief for it to affect you. And the rules wouldn't tell you to block against a wildly swinging power line in the first place because it isn't making a melee attack against you. 3) Just because the enemy is using a chain does not keep you from blocking. Maybe it should -- if someone is using a monowhip, it doesn't make much sense to block it with your hands, but per RAW, you can.
ArkonC
I'm with Tunnel Rat on this one, blocking shock gloves, touch spells, chains or the like is just silly...
Seems the people I play with agree...
And no one in my group has ever made a street sam without dodge for these reasons...
But indeed, RAW-wise you can block a monowhip barehanded...
Cthulhudreams
I've always thought of blocking a shock glove for example would be blocking the guys forearm.
Larme
QUOTE (ArkonC @ Mar 26 2008, 07:31 PM) *
I'm with Tunnel Rat on this one, blocking shock gloves, touch spells, chains or the like is just silly...
Seems the people I play with agree...
And no one in my group has ever made a street sam without dodge for these reasons...
But indeed, RAW-wise you can block a monowhip barehanded...


First of all, a block doesn't have to be just putting your arm in the way. It would be silly to block a chain that way. But you could swat the chain and deflect it, going with its momentum rather than actually blocking it. Same with shock gloves -- if you just stuck your arm in the way of a shock glove, it would shock you. But a successful block means it does not shock you. Therefore, it CANNOT mean that you block a shock glove by putting your arm in the way of it. Obviously, you'd be deflecting the person's arm, rather than meeting their fist with part of your body.

The real problem is that it's going to be totally arbitrary what is too "silly" to block. Some things might be sorta clear, like monowhips, but others, how would you figure it out? Do you base it on how heavy it is? Like if it's a troll with a steel girder, you can't block it? What if it's an ork with a steel pole? Or a human with a sledgehammer? There are lots of gray areas when you start to impose arbitrary limits on blocking. And you have to realize that your perception of how unarmed fighting works might be totally inaccurate. You can bet your ass that an expert martial artist would know how to deflect a chain with his bare hands. It's not like a chain automatically hits you if you try to block it, that's just as silly as the thing you're supposedly trying to prevent. How are players supposed to feel about a rule that things can only be blocked if you say so, on a case-by-case basis? Someone who takes unarmed combat is going to be kinda pissed, right? You're altering the RAW to weaken particular characters just because it isn't that realistic. But balance is more important than realism. Strength and unarmed combat are already pretty disfavored options in SR4, there is no justification for nerfing them further.
Whipstitch
I think taking things this literally is to the detriment of the game. Block is a useful term that differentiates defending yourself while Unarmed with Unarmed skills from defending yourself while armed with armed combat skills. This is handy because saying "Unarmed Defense" is long, ungainly and could easily be interpreted as "Defending yourself from someone's Unarmed attack" rather than "Defending yourself while Unarmed." The current terminology is quick and sufficiently differentiated from other skills to be useful. If the idea that perhaps your PC uses their armored jacket sleeve and proper timing to stop the whip attack before it picks up sufficient momentum to be deadly isn't passing the sniff test for you, feel free to say you ducked it. You are, after all, still using your Reaction attribute as part of the dice pool. Maybe it's just been augmented by the fact you're trained in movement (Gymnastics) or you're a keen enough fighter to recognize the angle of attack being used (Unarmed) and did whatever it is you had to do to not have your insides splattered all over the decor.
Sombranox
Silly as it is, the only thing that ever came to mind for me in terms of blocking or parrying a monowhip was deflecting the tip weight somehow. It almost defies belief to think of someone actually being able to track a few gram weight (or fingertip) flying through the air on a near-invisible line, but eh...

It does certainly have that "I am a badass martial artist and I laugh at your puny Monowhip Fu" sort of thing going for it though.
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