First off, I'm not sure where you got the notion that Guard, as a spirit power, cannot interfere with free will.

Secondly, and more importantly maybe, the driver's choice is to drive somewhere (even blindfolded). He still gets to do that. It just doesn't result in him running over the invisible cyclist. As his intention was not ever to run over an invisible cyclist, his will is in no way thwarted. How could it be, when he didn't even know there was a cyclist there?

You really can't talk consider free will a meaningful concept and then put scare quotes around "intention". Free will is entirely contingent on intent.

(Why? It's a car, you drive it, why do you need rules for it?)

Okay, let's see. You're planning a run where you might have to make a getaway on busy streets maybe. You realize that your Westwind 3000 and your Bulldog Step-Van are bad choices as getaway vehicles (assume Log>1) and you don't have access to aircraft, and you have noticed bicycle commuters as well as bike messengers moving through traffic in a dangerous but relatively fast manner.

So it might just come up that you're riding a bike and need to know how fast you can go, to see if you can get out of SMG range, or go faster than some flying drone or whatever, and so it might be nice to have talked with other gamers about how you'd model a bike fairly and somewhat realistically. It's pretty unlikely that you'll need to know how fast you can brush your hair.

Ah ok Google RecumBent bicycle then unenlightened one.

WMS

Ok then why not just link it to Strength. Say for every one point of Str. you move at 10 mph w/o exerting yourself. So someone with an average strength of 2 can move @ 20 mph. Lets say then you calculate this from feet to meters per second. 3.2808399 feet = 1 meter so therefor if only have a Str of 1 you move at 4.47 meters per second (5280 feet per mile going at 10 mph is 14 and 2/3rds feet per second) so lets just say 4.5 meters per second. If every combat round takes three seconds that means you can move 13.5 meters per every three seconds of combat for every point of strength you have (assuming you are already moving at full speed.)

I don't even want to deal with the acceleration, but to throw out some numbers say.... 7.5 and then 15 if exerting yourself.

There you have your speeds for a bike.

The only rules that skates get is that they increase running multipliers, and at GM discretion there will be a penalty for doing certain things or going over certain terrain. Bikes should probably have the exact same rules. In fact, all human powered vehicles should probably have the exact same rules. Instead of getting all complicated, you can take the rules that already exist, give them minor tweaks, and there you go.

Calculate walking/running speed (provided in the BBB), figure out how much a mode of transportation doubles, triples or whatever said speed. Write down new walking/running speeds. Apply standard vehicle rules (speeds over X speed/acceleration require a vehicle handling check) also apply athletic skill (To go over X speed you need to make checks vs Athletics/body else you pass the hell out. Like running).

Looks good. Well done.
And this is my point. A rule external to the books is by definition a house rule because it is not RAW. Even a good house rule shared on a forum, is still a house rule that you choose to use. And not to Disrespect the Doc's work but anyone of you could of done it, two pages ago.

Now am all for the use of the forum for conceptual inter-exchanges, stylistic advise and thearetical advances in undocumented areas. Even the constant RAW debates/flames sometimes get there.
BUT why bicker, on the net? In an unrelated thread over spirit powers? For example.
It is a ref call made at every table and your opinion will not effect someone else's game. Your just assertinging that your more important than they are and that is pointless.
Perhapes its because I think everyone's opinion is important and therefore read their post that I find mindless juvenile drivel exhausting. So do an old man a favour and keep to the point.

just to throw some fuel on the fire, here's a list of records for speeds, both short term and long term.
http://www.ihpva.org/hpva/hpvarech.html
N.B. this is for various human powered records, and includes things like air speeds and water speeds.
Part of my point in this thread is that there are options out there for transportation that are useful for runners (kayaks anyone?) that haven't been covered in the raw ever really. Bikes are a really important one to me, but that was why I included the whole part about (meta)human powered vehicles.
I agree that things like good matrix rules are important, I think that covering what is realistically available as transportation options for runners is also a good thing.

Should Bikes (real bikes not motorcycles) be brought into the canon?
Should Bicycles be added to the canon?
Yes, they can be a useful transportation choice for certain Running situations. [ 9 ] ** [17.65%]
No, Bicycles are useless and don't belong anywhere in Shadowrun. [ 7 ] ** [13.73%]
yes and they should have other muscle powered vehicles, like hover boards, skate boards, etc. [ 35 ] ** [68.63%]
I'm sorry, but these responses don't seem to me to be suggestive.

I could not choose any of these. I cannot see me using a bike on a run but I could see the uses undercover-a bike messenger, or mountain biking in the hills.

...you haven't been on a run with the Short One...

The complaint is that you've attributed your own reasons ("They are useful", "They are useless") to the Yes and No options. Someone might want to vote Yes for a reason other than "They might be useful on a run", or similarly someone think bicycles are useful, but still vote No for other reasons.

DS

Why do you assume Bikes are not cannon?

Exactly. Your responses were suggestive because the "no" option is only available if the person is willing to say that bikes everywhere and always should be excluded, which few people are likely to think. This suggests to the respondents that the "correct" answer is one of the other two.

Also, because people who don't want rules for bikes are not that likely to think that they should NEVER appear in the game, only people who like bikes are going to respond. Therefore, this poll's respondents self-select and are not a valid sample of the Dumpshock population.

If they were cannon, they'd use the Heavy Weapons or Gunnery skill.

i dunno, i think the bike cannon would definitely be an exotic ranged weapon. you'd only use gunnery if it was mounted on a vehicle, and heavy weapons would never apply

Well, for starters, the guard power stops accidents. Free will kinda implies that it was done intentionally. Since the guard power only works on accidents, it kinda naturally flows that the guard power doesn't stop someone from purposefully doing something to kill you. Thus, if someone wants to run you down with their car, the guard power won't stop it at all.

Next, I would like to remind you of what you seem to be forgetting. It's just four little words tucked into the Street Magic book.

Magic is not intelligent.

Sure, magic can be guided, but it's not intelligent on its own. Once you use a spell or a power, the magic isn't going to be making any decisions. I agree, the driver didn't intend to run down an invisible cyclist. But magic doesn't know that. Magic is not intelligent. Magic can not decide what the driver's intent is after all. The power is limited in that it can not prevent something from being done intentionally. After all, the guard power stops you from having accidents, not from making mistakes.

Ergh, if someone wants to run you down with their car, and then tries to run you down with his car, he is doing it on purpose. But we were not talking about the Guard power protecting against someone trying to murder you (obviously it doesn't do that). We're talking about vehicular manslaughter. If he is just driving and runs you over accidentally, because he didn't notice you or because his brakes suddenly failed or because you were Concealed, IT IS A FRUNCKING ACCIDENT.

How does Guard work when you're, for example, walking along a narrow and crumbly ledge and might put your foot in the wrong place? (It really doesn't matter how it works, but the power protects you from stepping on the crumbly bit and falling to your death, and it doesn't protect you from someone intentionally shoving you off the ledge).

Okay, that's the same way it works to protect you from other accidents. Very simple. There's no need for the power to be like "let's see, is this big heavy thing being controlled by someone with free will? are any of us truly free? blah blah blah". It stops accidents. That's the power's nature. That's how it works. It doesn't have to be "smart" to do that, any more than water needs to be "smart" to flow down a hill.

The spell Detect Enemies won't detect someone about to drive into you accidentally, not because it has to figure out the guy's motivations, but just because he isn't your enemy. In the same way, the Guard power does not protect you against enemies. Except, of course, enemies using the Accident power on you. But that's another story.

they have uses but are extraordinarily limited. nearly silent, no power contraints, portable over rough ground and virtually no therographic sig. BUT limited in speed/carrying capacity and endurance.

I'd see usuing one as long as you could pick the route-like a mountain bike used for a meet on a hillside-baddies block the roads and you go offroad fast.

Again, you're missing the point. What is the difference between purposefully running someone down, and running someone down 'accidentally'? Intent. In order for the guard power to understand the difference between a driver purposefully running someone down and accidentally running someone down would call for the power to judge the intent of the driver.

Let me put it this way. We see a man running out into the street only to be hit by a car changing lanes only a few short seconds ago. On one hand, the driver could have purposefully changed lanes in order to strike the pedestrian. On the other hand, the driver could have been not paying attention, and was merely changing lanes. How do you decide if this was murder or an accident?

Stepping on a ledge, however, calls for no decisions. Why doesn't the ledge break when you step upon it? Because the guard power reinforces its strength. It didn't need to make that decision because the guard power would reinforce where you step automatically, even if you were on completely solid footing.

Finally, the Detect Enemies wouldn't detect someone accidentally about to run you over because the driver doesn't intend to cause harm towards the subject of the spell, and not because you aren't an 'enemy'. The term 'enemy' is a concept thought up by intelligent beings, and you have to apply judgement to determine if someone is an 'enemy'. Magic can't make decisions. What it can do is this:



So, again, you're granting magic intelligence when it has none. It's like computers. People think that computers are smart when they aren't. Computers appear smart because they've been given instructions, but they can't judge those instructions. Magic is a lot like that,except that it doesn't have the benefit of allowing huge amounts of instructions that grant it limited decision making ability.

I chose not to vote on this one, 'cause -- much as it pains me to agree with Larme -- I think it's a poorly crafted poll. I don't think it's all that big a deal, because I don't think polls on Dumpshock are all that terribly important, but I would've felt much better with an option that wasn't all that rabidly pro-or-against.

"Sure, make rules if you want to but we haven't had them for the last twenty years or so so who really cares real strongly either way?" maybe, as an option four, would've gotten my vote.

Anyone mention bike cannons?

ACMA troupes aéroportées Mle. 56

Museum

I want to know HOW they compensated for recoil. I see one of those things firing and the bike doing a backflip.

The recoilless cannon was fired from a tripod. The vespa was just to transport it (check the link).

...used to play Car Wars. Mounted a Surplus Tank Cannon on a school bus which pointed out the rear emergency door. Got 3 -4 hexes of acceleration every time it was fired.

The Books of Things not in SR4 is large and infinite, don't make me hit you with it. It will hurt you.

"Dear Santa,

Please, please don't bring me any gifts. The bicycle you fired at me last year from your bicycle gun really tore up my insides."


- Futurama - a tale of two santas

A swiss mountain army bike could pretty easily have a mortar launcher on it.

seriously though. One of the reasons that I think there should be some sort of "canon" rules for bikes is that I could easily envisage a bike with a flexible mount on the handle bars (or in the case of a recumbent, on the front end of the frame) holding up to a smg. Controlled wirelessly of course.

How do *I* decide? A lengthy and exhaustive trial, of course. How does the magic power decide? It doesn't. It just protects against accidents.

It's like how magical (or mundane) lightning doesn't analyze the target, see that there are some electronics, and then decide to short them out -- it just shorts out electronics that are there.

I'd say it was vehicular homicide if it was by accident, murder 1 if intentional.

Really "vehicular homicide" applies to anything where a person is killed with a vehicle, whether or not there's a crime.

if someone is killed that's the crime.
Just like man slaughter, but with a vehicle
.

The Rigger Black Book has the Dodge Scoot and Entertainment Systems Papoose. Both are electric but have pedal speeds of 5/21 and 7/21. The decker comments are "For munchkins only" and "Well, if y'all's desperate". Sounds like this thread ;)

You're the one missing the point. An example given in the guard power is that it can save someone from drowning. It doesn't matter why they're drowning, it will save them. Whether thats because they're 4 years old, and don't know how to swim, and were just trying to get their ball out of the pool, or because they're suicidal, and tied their feet up to an anvil, and threw it in a very deep river. Either way, the power will prevent the from drowning.


Did the driver utilize the ram action to attack the pedestrian? If yes, the guard power doesn't help. If its because the GM decided so, its an accident.


Who says that it has to reinforce where you step? It could make you slip on some pebbles just before you set your foot down, making you fall on your ass. Your leg hits the fragile parts of the ledge, and they go tumbling down. You narrowly avoid falling because you slipped just before the fragile part. Guard and accident are so creatively based powers, you can't really use one specific example for how they will work.



No, the Core Rulebook gave the magic that intelligence. The book says that the spell detects enemies with hostile intentions. If you don't like that, house rule it, but HE didn't give the spell that power, the game creators did.

Right, but the term "homicide" applies whenever someone is killed, whether they're murdered or they're killed accidentally or in self-defense or defense of others. Like if you're driving and some guy jumps out in the street with a hockey mask and a chainsaw, and you're like AAAAAA! and you run him over, it could be vehicular manslaughter because you thought he was some crazy guy with a chainsaw who was going to kill you, and you were defending yourself.

On the other hand, if it also happened to be Halloween, and you were stalking your ex, and you'd heard her say that her new boyfriend was going to be dressed as Jason, it could be murder. Hey, crime drama.

Magic does have a funny kind of intelligence. It knows when you implant a cyberarm into your body, versus when someone just cuts you open and inserts a cyberarm into the wound. It knows when someone is your enemy with the detect enemies spell. It knows when an object is a door, versus a piece of the exact same material in the same shape, when you cast shatter door. It knows when something is a bullet, rather than just a small piece of metal, when you cast detect bullets. It knows when something is broken, and can then restore it to fixed with the fix spell. It isn't an unintelligent force. It isn't intelligent either, but it does have the ability to recognize fuzzy categories of reality that are essentially nothing but labels given by metahumanity. Physically, a door is like any piece of wood. But when metahumans call it a door, the Ram Door spell will suddenly shatter it, even though it wouldn't shatter a piece of wood the exact same size and shape that wasn't being used as a door. It's true that according to physics, there is no such thing as an accident, there is pure cause and effect. But when metahumans call something an accident, it is prevented by guard. When they call it an intentional act, guard won't work. Those are fuzzy categories that this particular power can clearly recognize. If it couldn't, then its very description would be utter nonsense. It would either apply to every unfortunate thing that happened, or it would apply to nothing at all.

And then you'd still have the problem of "knowing" if something is unfortunate or not.

All of these examples are guided by the intelligence of the caster, not some phantom magic intelligence. It detects doors because you have a concept of doors you are 'instructing' the magical force you wield. And I think Shatter (Ram) Doors would shatter an unhinged door sitting somewhere (The exact same material in the same shape with a knob on it) just as good as a hinged one. I would rule it's use even against something like a floating door spirit manifested in a pile of rattling doors. It's the caster's preconceptions that define the parameters of a spell. As for a cyber arm stuck into a wound VS one replacing your normal arm? Thats a silly example. Its the taking over of the nerves and mental impulses that does the essence loss. Not some invisible meta-magical jury of your peers spirit.

If that were true, someone could "Control Thoughts" you, make you think something was a door, then make you cast Shatter Door on it. Since the person thought it was a door at the time, the magic wouldn't know any better and would kill it. Or someone could cast Phantasm to make all enemies look like doors, and then another person who didn't know it was an illusion could Ram Door all of them. That's not how it works. It isn't the caster's preconceptions, it's the preconceptions of metahumanity as a whole. Doors are defined collectively by humans, not by any given human at any given time. Same with all categories of things that magic can "recognize." We don't have to call it intelligence, but there's no question that magic can recognize metacategories of reality, things that are merely labels that humans give to reality and have no independent existence. Accidents are such a fuzzy category. There is no physical difference between the movement of a car when someone accidentally crashes into a wall versus deliberately rams the wall. But magic knows the difference because one humanity would call an accident, and the other they would not.

Magic works on the ultimate Platonic ideal, be it a door or not.

I have to agree with Larme here. Just because you have a piece of wood the size and shape as a door, but it is currently sitting on some stacks of books, and is being used as a table in some squatters place. Then Ram Door doesn't work on it. It even can have a knob, still won't work. Ram Table would though.

...how did we get derailed by a magic discussion here?

This is Dumpshock, where any thread is a valid candidate for derailment by a discussion about about Magic (or guns)!

Yeah, I never get anywhere with Magic. It's always adding all these dice and doing wonderful things for all these other guys that just want Magic for it's flash and power, but I never get to initiate, because it just sees me as a "friend." Nice mages finish last.

...I'd rather it had been guns...

How about magic guns? Can we have a thread on magic guns?

I still say the panels wouldn't dent, and lights and such would not break. The car is ARMORED. That includes the windows. If they're all built with at least basic 9mm stopping power on the entirety of the car, I think it would hold up under the motorcycle, and that includes the windshields.

There are no rules for cars running over other cars, so neither of us can claim RAW on this argument.

But I don't think "has an armor rating" means "armored" in the sense of armored cars today. After all, glass has an armor rating, but glass isn't armored. Armor does not mean "is a fighting vehicle that is made to withstand guns," it means "has some ability to resist damage which is represented by the catchall term of armor."

A subcompact has an armor of 6, which is equal to heavy material. You could probably damage heavy material by rolling over it with a motorcycle. But more importantly, a subcompact is not sealed in like a citymaster. It is covered in weak points. It has headlights and windows and such that can be easily broken by a motorcycle. And regardless, to me, even if the car's body could withstand a pistol, that doesn't mean a motorcycle wouldn't hurt it. It wouldn't do any boxes of damage, but it would cause dents and scrapes and generally be not nice. If you want your universe to be one where basic cars act like tanks, go for it. But not in my sandbox.

A headlight has the same armor as that panel by your legs that's supposed to keep your insides on the inside? No cars have cheap and attractive siding? It's all just armor plate hammered into a nice aerodynamic shape? Armor can't cosmetically deform and still retain it's bullet stopping power?