@DingoJones:

I just took your troll example.

And that dv would be possible from the start with 400 bp.

Sad but true.

troll adept

str 15 / 2 = 8
+ 24 x critical strike ( magic 6)
+ 6 from martial arts qualities
= 38 dv unarmed

Don't forget to buy unarmed combat at rating 6

you can have a max leve lof M rating for anhy adept ability so max of 6 at char gen. Still that's a min maxed troll with dv 20. I wasn't min maxing to get a dv of 14-15.
that 35 bp cap is so incredibly important.

Sorry, forgot about the max level rating for adept powers.

But it's still a lot of dv.

Word

I don’t think anyone will argue that when pitted against each other the combatant with the gun would have the advantage over the combatant without one. Yet, all military forces are trained in some form of close quarters combat, especially our special forces. In all practicality someone who specialized in melee combat would do so for reasons beyond sheer survivability. They would do so for other reasons be them stylistic, philosophical or necessity.

Therefore, one would logically argue that for a person to be successful at being a primarily close quarters combatant that person would have to be exceptionally good at either creating a situation where he or she has the full element of surprise or would otherwise defeat their opponents range advantage by being proficient at avoiding bullets. So, unless your name is Boris the Bullet Dodger you are looking at having a pretty good Infiltration skill and being very, very, very smart. That’s the way it should be. Mechanics aside, if the GM allows for these situations to be the norm and not the exception created by good game play, there is something wrong.

Now that being said, should a person be able to kill someone else in hand to hand. Yes. That’s for sure. Uh huh. Si. But for that to happen one either has to be an expert martial artist or the victim has to be particularly weak or unable to defend themselves. Since most people will not have such expertise in melee combat (it being a modern time) a person who is an expert should be able to at least critically disable a fairly untrained opponent.

I think the current system reflects all these realities whether the character is completely “tooled� in any form of melee combat. I personally always found it stupid that a Katana does less base damage than a decent sized bullet. In this game the damage is comparable. I know I wouldn’t want to be hit by either and I would be just as dead when facing someone with a decent enough proficiency with either. Remember, even if you are a maxed out troll Kempo or whatever master nobody says that you won’t have to fight another maxed out troll Kempo master with one more die in everything. Balance is really at the discretion of the GM.

EDIT: Arg, i read the wrong post. Scratch this one.

But i was mentioning, that a minmaxed DV beast is going to have alot of problems elsewhere. Ive toyed with a couple of ''super DV builds'' for fun; and i got alot more mileage out of an elf with a 10-11 DV than i did with the 16 DV troll. The elf has MUCH better stats, skills, contacts, and about everything else to sacrifice the 4 DV from a hit.

Tru Dat! Elves are the way to go. My favorite character is a face/martial adept. He has no use for guns in critical meets where their presence would only arouse suspicion and fear. Luckily, he is not unprotected, as his own body is a lethal weapon.

Too much troll = Too little BP

Too much elf? You can never have too much elf!

Now that's an awesome concept. He sounds kinda like the movie-esque smooth talker/can still kick yer butt.

Like anything; sometimes i'ts just ok to sacrifice alot for something if you really want it for the character, if you have a particular idea in your head that involves maxing a stat, by all means go for it. I have before. It can be fun.

But as was discussed in another thread, maxing in SR4 is an expensive endeavor, and you might well be better off, for example, taking the two dice pools at 14 rather than one at 20, the 11 DV instead of the 16, and so on. And i think if introducing martial arts to a group, and they look like they might want to go overboard to the point of crippling their characters elsewhere, i'd explain it like this:

Player: I REALLY want my guy to hit hard! That's why i did all of that boosting.

Me: Well, sure, you hit hard...but maybe try the 10 or 11 DV instead. You'll have SO many points to put elsewhere. And check this out: *flips to Panther Cannon in book* You hit HARDER than one of THESE with an 11 DV. Trust me, Deathsatan WILL be feared by anyone who wants to keep their head if he 'only' has an 11 DV.

Usually, i found when you explain strikes in the language of 'BFGs' people are pretty understanding.

Actually a troll doesn't need extra dv in unarmed combat.

He only needs to have ma (wrestling) with +1 dv to subduing with maneuvers riposte and finishing move. some type 0, muscle toner and suprathyroid gland would help that way.

Trolls don't need to punch to beat the crap out of someone. They just squeeze it out of them.

And elves are the gods of agility and charisma dice pools. No doubt.