I get tired of people always saying this or that thing is broken/ too powerful. However, I was doing some playing around with troll martial artist, and it was pretty easy to get an Adept with a base unarmed DV of 15p. This without being minmaxed on stats. Using cyber and bioware, it was easy to get 14p.
To do it dump 30 bp's into martial arts taking different styles with the increase UA dv +1 option. This becomes especially dangerous when combined with sweep, set up, finishing blow, throw and kick. for a total cost of 40 bp.
I think the martial arts section is really cool, but am worried the raw might be too easy to abuse.

I can shoot you about 8 times while you close the distance between us in a normal encounter. How many dice do you have to soak?

So, the short answer is: No.

And the long answer is: No.

You can roll Reaction+Skill against melee attacks without taking Full Defense or even take Reaction+Skill+Skill if you are willing to burn an initiative pass on Full Defense. Meanwhile, ranged attacks limit you to Reaction+Skill at best and opponents can typically threaten two such attacks a round. There's things I dislike about the martial arts rules, but I don't think being overpowered is one of the real issues. It's tremendously effective at bullying unskilled opponents, but even characters whose self-defense skills can be best described as merely adequate often have a fighting chance when it comes to evading blows long enough to retaliate with gunfire.

Not to mention your punch master will still get whooped by a riposte specialist.

Are the maneuvers positive qualities? I don't recall, but if so, they'll count against your 35 BP qualities.

Did you take Hardliner gloves? (makes Killing Hands mostly redundant and gives you a higher DV) make it a weapon focus for the skill bonus and maybe try to munch away a extra die with personalized grip (fit).

So ... The question becomes what can someone else get with with those same 75 BPs (Troll adept martial artist)? How about a sniper rifle?

Edit: and what they said. I need to type faster.

*choke* *cough* 40 bp?! Being able to punch really hard for 40 BP is broken??? That is a huge chunk of points. And I should point out that the maximum points you can spend in positive qualities at chargen is 35, anyway.

Regardless, as is said every time there is a thread about melee: guns are better. They have range, and the enemy can't even dodge effectively without Full Defense, and you can shoot between 2 and 20 bullets in one action phase. As long as there are guns, it's hard to get upset about any level of melee asskickery. Especially from a troll. Trolls are *supposed* to be totally insane up close. Once again: it's a feature, not a bug. If you don't like it, you can house rule it, but there really isn't any outright brokenness to speak of.

Yeah, a troll samurai trained in Boxing/Muay Thai along with things like bone lacing, and Wired Reflexes II should reduce you to a small bloody pile. You're basically getting punched out by Manbearpig at that point.

That 40 pts, I believe is 30 for Martial Arts, 5 for adept quality and 5 for skill. Though it might be 5 for maneuvers (but that goes back to my question about maneuvers being positive qualities) or 5 BP for nuyen to buy the cyber. Thus it (probably) does not violate the 35 BP positive quality limit. In any case, the cost is actually more like 130+ BP because trolls aren't free and neither is a high str stat.

It's accepted (like, in court) that a guy with a knife standing about 21 feet (~7m-ish) will probably close that distance and stab you before you can get your gun out and shoot him. I think in SR this would have to be represented by the guy moving and stabbing you in the same IP, and given the sort of unrealistic way some actions are handled I am not sure this would be workable, but it should be.

EDIT: Other than that, being really good at something you spent 40 BP on is, er, pretty reasonable. I mean, for 36 BP you could have 3 contacts each with 6 connection and 6 loyalty -- that's like your best friends from school, with whom you made a pact to share your fortunes, becoming a royal advisor, a famous poet/astronomer, and an Evil Overlord with a mountain hideout guarded by legions of drug-crazed assassins. For 40 BP you could also be, like, really strong.

It should be pointed out that, by the RAW, you divide the movement rate per IP. Which would equate to the '21 foot rule' for SR. By my reckoning, that would be 35/4 or a 8.75 meters per IP. Thus, for trolls, it's the 8.75 meter rule (assuming that they won initiative). Outside 8.75 meters, the defender would get to attack first at least once (twice for semi-automatic or short burst shots).

Edit: Almost forgot. I should also point out that another advantage a ranged fighter possesses is that it is easier to gain surprise when attacking from range.

Contrary to most responses so far, I too have a problem with the unlimited stacking of DV bonuses across the various Martial arts. I don't mind that most of the other factors are stackable, but the DV bonus can get out of hand, with no real logical reasoning behind it. I am thinking about instigating a house rule that limits these specific DV bonuses to +3, as there are Martial Arts that grant up to +2, and there should be some benefit to cross-training. If that doesn't work, I'll just drop the limit to a straight +2 across the board.

Honestly, they, IMO, make playing a fully melee character now viable and something to be reckoned with.

Ive always liked the melee types. (And wait, Sweep and Kick are Manuvers now? I just thought they were, you know, regular attacks. My buddy has the book so i can't reference it at the moment. I don't remember that part How is Kick as a manuver different than saying you kick the guy?)

Anyway, they were never 'bad', IMO, in SR4. But yeah, they had some issues. You did have to build em pretty specific-cybered up with Bone Lacing, alot in Unarmed(or Blades or whatnot, they have weapon based arts too). You wanted a good Dodge(well, Gymnastics Dodge) to make sure they could close the distance; while the marksman needed Dodge(Specialized). Adept-wise, yeah, the critical strike and killing hands. And don't forget you kind of had to worry about stats. Body to soak the hits(you will get hit), Agility since, of course, all combat skills are linked, Strength to up the damage(ok, an adept with enough Critical Strike, even a 3 strength person can be nasty), Reaction, again to help your defense and initative. Now, if you're a Riposte machine, you CAN get away with less Initative Passes if you juice your Reaction and Initative, but be ready to borrow actions and keep in mind your lucky parry/blocking will probably run out, and you're stuck with no defense.

To build a gunslinger expert, Body was nice, but enough for you to wear an Armor Jacket was fine. but you needed basically Agility, a maxed firearms skill, some sort of reflex increase, a dodge, and a smartlink(i mean, firearms people basically get 2 extra dice with a smartlink. There is no 'smart gloves.')

Martial Arts skills help even the playing field, IMO. I mean, it really helps give them some tools; for instance, Finishing Blow is great for getting an extra attack, Riposte, Watchful Guard, and the like. Im toying with a character now for an upcoming game and it looks quite hopeful(the party has two marksmen as it is, and one is really good with blades as well so i won't be alone and undefended.) Ran a few mock-combats to test the waters, and yeah, against low-skilled people(he's a human adept with some muscle/speed augmenting and bits of other ware, not too much), he did turn people into sacks of meat. Against moderate people, they eventually became sacks of meat but it took some work. Against even people, it's about using tactics and your manuvers to your best advantage. But with the points i put into it, as someone mentioned, I would HOPE i'd be good at something.


I do suggest a couple of flash-bangs and a flash-pak, too. It can help.

But yeah, what they were saying. They aren't broken. They HELP the melee characters even the ground a bit; not surpass, but close in more.

I concur with the growing consensus that blowing 30-40 bp on anything should more or less entitle you to be able to throw 10+ dice at a problem. Yes it gets into "Armor piercing jiujitsu" but I mean... you are an adept, that's kinda what you... you know do. If you can't kick down a strong door and punch through the occasional wall, that takes away from the whole "Being an adept is awesome" factor.

I agree that imposing a limit on the DV bonus is reasonable. I don't think it will ever come up in a game though; it would take such a ridiculous amount of karma to learn all those martial arts, I can't see anyone doing it. But it is silly to double your hand to hand damage just by knowing more martial arts. Two martial arts gives you more options than one, but it probably shouldn't give you double the brute power of one... It's like bows -- it's a bit silly, quite unrealistic, maybe not game breaking, but you might need to tweak it so it doesn't fail the laugh test.

I agree that the naming conventions are a bit awkward, but just try not to think of it that way. Think of it as "Improved Kick" and "Improved Sweep" and it passes the sniff test a bit easier. You're just so good at those particular maneuvers that you always manage to gain a spacing advantage over your opponent when kicking and that you've learned how to knock your opponent down in such a way that they don't have a chance at breaking their fall and thus take damage. I apply the same logic with the "Throw" and "Disarm" maneuvers. You can already throw/disarm your opponent as the end result of a grapple or called shot check under the current rules, and so "Throw" and "Disarm" already really mean "Counter Throw" and "Disarming Counter" more than anything. It's not an elegant solution, by any means, and should really probably be unnecessary, but it makes things a li'l easier to stomach.

First of all, martial arts is a positive quality, while maneuvers are more like skills. The former count against the 35 BP limit, but the latter should not.

Martial arts bonuses stack, up to a dice pool bonus equal to your unarmed combat skill, but it only talks about dice, not DP bonuses. I would not let those stack, so the most you could get would be +2 DV (which is still awesome).

Ahh, i think i follow you there. I mean, i figure i should try to learn all the little bits here. it seemed pretty cut and dry at first, but as i learn more...whew.
Well, at least taking the 'Improved Kick' manuver would fit a Tae Kwan Do master, methinks. Looking at them as 'improvements' over stuff you can already do seems simple. Anyone can try to Disarm, Throw, or whatnot...take the manuvers and you do it better.

I don't think anyone said maneuvers should count against the 35 BP limit, but I agree with you, they don't.

Good call on the DV stacking though! I think it's a little rules-lawyer-ie, because the sentence just before talks in terms of "advantages" and does not specify dice pool modifiers... Still, since knowing two martial arts shouldn't really make your punches more powerful than knowing just one, I think your way is the better way to read it.

Arse, 156, "A character gains the advantages of all martial arts styles she knows; should they overlap, these dice modifiers stack. The maximum number of dice that can be added to or subtracted from a character’s dice pool from martial art modifiers is equal to the rating of the relevant Combat skill."

I think that fairly clearly says that if the advantages from multiple styles are for the same bonus, they stack together, with a limit of your combat skill.

Thus, the absolute most you could get from stacking up DV bonuses is +7. And thats assuming you took an aptitude unarmed, and raised it all the way up to 7. (Of course, you can't do that, since 7 martial arts is 35BP maxxing out your qualities for chargen, and aptitude would exceed that).


As far as the BP cost on that, it'd be 10 for aptitude, 32 for unarmed 7, 25 for various martial arts, and then 20 karma for the remaining martial arts.

Thats, 67BP and 20 karma to get a +7DV in his unarmed. I think thats quite worth the cost to balance it out. (Especially since someone can be an adept with magic 6 for 70bp, and have a +6 to unarmed dv, while still having 4.5power points open for other abilities, like killing hands, improved reflexes, distance strike, or penetrating strike).

I disagree. I think they should count against the 35-point limit at character generation. I believe Arsenal mentions that you can learn more during play with Karma.

It says dice modifiers. As per the bbb, dice modifiers add and subtract dice. DV modifiers are not dice modifiers since they neither add nor subtract dice. Ergo, DV modifiers would not stack.

It says both. First it says advantages, then it says dice modifiers. I think you're right. But I also wouldn't throw things at someone for reading it the other way. I don't think a GM should be criticized for letting their players go nuts with more, better, stronger options. They generally just add to the party Plus, NPC martial arts gurus can do it to, so it goes both ways.

Need I remind you fool: on our first run together your street sam Aeon easily took out the precious feet of my melee adept before I could even get close?

Melee is about flavor, not damage. There are a million better ways to do damage than through melee. So what if you can do the same DV as a missile with the same -AP? It does not have the same radius, and that is the issue. Either way, it is the most inefficient way to get massive damage. Just make a Troll bowman, then at least you can take out helicopters. Or just be a possession mage troll (talk about soak dice)!

Well, I hope no one thought that I was throwing anything, because I wasn't. If they meant that all advantages stack, shouldn't they have said advantages? Perhaps we could ask for someone 'official' to clarify.

Besides, I'm thinking of *protecting* players from NPC martial arts gurus. Anything you can abuse your GM can abuse better.

But if you blow 2.5 power points you can get Distance Blow and Killing Hands. This would allow me to blow the crap out of you without having to close the distance. Yes I lose the bone lacing bonus... but that can be made up by spending points on Critical Strike.

Correction. You can beat the crap out of him from a distance of Magic Meters. So, at chargen, the max distance is 6 meters away. Which is less than the walking rate per turn for even a dwarf. Its not really all that special other than it makes their defense like ranged combat. In that they only get reaction.

It says that all the advantages stack. Then it goes on to specify that yes, dice modifiers stack as well.

HADOOOUUUKEN!!!!!!!!!

Please stop being stubborn. It's attitudes like that which cause normal rules discussions on Dumpshock to degenerate into shit slinging flame wars. The fact is, you can read it two ways. Argue why your way is best. Don't just say over and over that your way is right, or that it's the only way. That's not an argument.

Yes it is!

There is no need to argue why anyone's way is the best. He is stating that you can read it that way. Stop being stubborn and accept that he or anyone else can choose to read it that way and if they choose to do so, it is not only right but also RAW as well, just as if you choose to read it your way, it is also right and RAW too. The ambiguity of the statement allows both readings. And as far as I am concerned, neither person's reading is better, unless you are the writer or developer and want to clarify intention. It is arguments on whose reading is better or the best that degenerate into flame wars.

Umm... what? You must not have been paying close attention to the thread. I have stated repeatedly that both readings are valid. I'm not strongly in favor of either one. I like the no stacking DV argument for balance reasons. But I'm not opposed to letting them stack, as I've said. I would call this the opposite of stubborn, i.e. flexible. You are arguing with me, except nothing I have said indicates that I disagree with you. I don't, in any way. I want Tarantula to stop telling us that the RAW unequivocally supports him, because it doesn't. It can go both ways.

And no, I think you're incorrect about what degenerates into flame wars. Every time I have seen it, it's because two people insist that the RAW supports them, and you can ONLY read it one way. Neither side will concede anything, they just go back and forth without getting anywhere, get frustrated, and start insulting each other. I have never seen a substantive argument about whose valid reading is better become a flame war. Such arguments are based on things like theme, game balance, etc. Because there are actual ideas to trade back and forth, people are able to calmly discuss it and make progress. It is stubbornness and refusal to concede arguments, not well reasoned argument, that creates flame wars. When both sides start by saying "your ruling makes sense, but here's why I prefer mine," it just opens up the floor to friendly discussion. But when they start with "you are totally wrong, and will never be right, because I'm the one who's right," it automatically leads to passions flaring.

Actually the way I read it, all Tarantula's been doing is constantly pointing out that "the advantages stack". You are the first in this thread with "Please stop being stubborn". The guy that gets personal is the one that starts the flame war. He might have been frustrated by the other sides' refusal to budge, but then the other guy who is probably just as frustrated did not get personal. Just because someone else does not or can not see your point does not mean you have to get angry, especially when you did see his point.

No it isn't. It's just contradiction.

Why do you think letting the DV modifiers stack is harmful to balance larme? As I showed, you can't even start chargen with a +7DV bonus. So what exactly is the harm of letting a character who wants to be good in melee, dump all their BP/Karma into it?

We have already shown on the forums how worthless massive melee dice is. If a character wants to waste their BP on a one trick melee horse, I feel worse for the character than for my dudes who are going to get their stomach punched out their back.

But how do those dudes feel about that? I guess they'll be too busy coating the room in freeze foam and automatic gunfire.

Actually, I feel worse for his teammates and GM than anyone. Balancing encounters when you have Captain Deadweight running around in a team full of more conventional characters can be a pain in the ass. That's why I tend to stick with grapplers and shock hands if I make a character that's meant to be dangerous with their hands. The DV issue is already settled in the case of the Shock Hands and subdual damage is already pretty good if you simply take a troll, ork or a couple of cyberarms since your strength isn't divided by two in such cases. Besides, an ork or troll samurai with 7 strength and a couple Ultimate Champion cyberarms can still fit a gyromount or two and have plenty of points leftover for other goodies.

Oh... it looks like you won't be able to solve this negotiation/drive/hack/find-your-ass-with-two-hands+flashlight test with a 14 DV punch. Maybe you should just... go wait in the car, we'll call you when we need to win a pit fight.

I've already explained my ideas earlier in the thread, and I'm not interested in getting into another argument about it. Like I said, you could do it either way. I just don't want people telling us that one way is the One True Way, because it really isn't. It mostly has to do with my generalized grievance that people on Dumpshock can't concede the other side's point, and they always have to argue to win. These are two features I see in Dumpshock arguments, and they happen to coincide with really pointless personal attacks and flame wars. It all comes down to people claiming that the RAW is on their side, period. That's where people butt heads. And the reason why they butt heads is that the RAW is on nobody's side. It's just text. Often very badly written text! You can usually read it more than one way. An argument about how to read the rules must involve a discussion about why one interpretation is going to improve the game more than the other, because an argument best purely on the RAW cannot, 9 times out of 10, be definitively resolved. Once in a while there's an argument about totally, 100% clear language, but usually it isn't. Usually you could go back and forth about the RAW for years without solving anything. It all has to come down to the why of an interpretation, rather than just stating "because it says so" over and over. There is substance behind the question of why, as in "I prefer a deadlier game, so let it stack," or "I prefer a realistic game, so don't let it stack." Those are two sensible positions, and each side can see the other's point, and so there does not need to be a flame war about it. But there is no substance behind "The RAW says what I say" against "Nuh uh! It says what I say!" And that's what I want to head off. That's all.

I'm definitely not paying for this argument.

I'll generally agree that firearms are more generally useful than melee until you're in melee at which point firearms are alot less useful.
As to the generalised character versus specialized, that's an entire thread in itself. Often your specialized gun bunnies aren't going to be any more versatile than your melee masters. Mainly because GB's need to spend so much money on toys.
I think a hard cap on increases to DV would be a good way to handle it. Or just let them punch like a missle.

I actually prefer arguments over grammar. Nothing says "pwnt" like sufforcating under one hypertrophic grammar testicle.

No, that is NOT what it says. Let me break it down for you.



In this first part of the sentence means that you can combine advantages from different martial arts. It does not cover what happens with those advantages overlap. That occurs in the second part of the sentence.



The instant they mention anything about 'stacking', they immediately switch to dice modifiers. This brings up the question: If they meant that all modifiers stack, why would they specifically say 'dice modifiers'?

So, don't tell me that advantages stack when it only says that dice modifiers stack.

Damn it, you see what I mean? It says both! You can read it either way. Just because you're sure there's only one way doesn't mean there is! If you could just say "I think this way to read it is more grammatically correct," instead of "it only says it my way, period," you'd be much less likely to start a flame war.

Um, ok. I think that it would be more grammatically correct to say that only dice modifiers stack. If they meant that all advantages overlap, as you suggest it can be read, then it seems strange that they would suddenly switch from 'advantages' to 'dice modifiers'.

Now, I will agree that they definitely could have written it clearer, and saved everyone the argument.

The text is self contradictory. It says advantages, then it says dice modifiers. Many of the advantages are not dice modifiers. So which is it? Both? Or just the dice modifiers? Who knows? It all comes down to how you want to play it. Punches from mundane martial arts masters that are more than twice as strong as a regular punch by someone just as strong and skilled who doesn't know any martial arts? Or not?

Yes you are!!!

WMS

Yes, you said you could go either way, but you also said that you like not letting the DV stack. I asked why you believe that letting the DV stack is better for balance, to which you said you've already explained it, and don't wish to get into an arguement. I showed why I prefer mine, in that I do not think balance is affected by having +7 DV because of the karma/bp costs to do so.



Yes, it says, "A character gains the advantages of all martial arts styles she knows;". It doesn't say that the advantages don't stack. It says that you get the advantages of all martial arts you know. Since it says you get all the advantages, but doesn't say that they don't stack, I think that it means they all stack, whether they are dice pool modifiers or not.


It says that dice modifiers stack specifically, but it also says you get all the advantages of your martial arts. These are not exclusive statements.

just to clarify, I was calculating a +5 to DV from Martial arts, not 7. And the troll had a strength of 8 (10 with bio) and a dodge of 4.