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Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (Synner667 @ Apr 14 2008, 11:24 AM) *
Considering that wireless networks are locked down now [well, in theory - many people and companies don't seem to do too good a job of basic wireless security], I don't see that an ad-hoc wireless network will let people connect and pass data through them..
..Especially not just a short time after yet another Matrix crash.

Well, consider why the Matrix crashed this time. The first time was because nothing was secure against the godlike power of a Crash virus, which somehow teleported over sneakernets and destroyed offline backups as well. So, you had the creation of monolithic fortress-esque Hosts, which provided a safe backbone that could fight the new threat of a virus.

That was the 2029 Crash, and it shaped what the matrix of the 2060s looked like, and why it was substantially more mainframe-driven than the Internet is today. The 2064/65 Crash happened because of that vulnerability: the presence of a backbone is what gave Winterknight something to attack with his magical EMP-nukes, or whatever they were. This exposed the fundamental problems of a mainframe-based architecture: a "single" point of failure.

The solution there was to build a worldwide mesh network, with all the redundancies that our current internet is supposed to have (but really no longer does, because ATM switches and fiber optic cable are expensive enough that corps would rather spend their effort bilking their customers than ensuring the future of their companies...) This can be done because 1) wireless technology has suddenly, magically, become able to transmit insane levels of information easily and instantly, so much so that I suspect that they're actually using subspace or some spectrum other than electromagnetic, and 2) computing power is so cheap now that you can carry a Host's worth of processing power in your pocket for less than a thousand dollars.

That's why people have open wireless networks, and why you can retransmit through your toaster, the street lights, your neighbor's cat's RFID collar, Joe Wageslave's RFID-laden "vitamin supplement", etc. Everyone has a vested interest in not seeing a Crash 3.0, so everyone goes out of their way to retransmit, to keep the data flowing.

Except for those selfish clods working in Hidden Mode, who are terrorists and must be arrested before they set off the magical EMP-nuke under their clothing.
Therumancer
Okay, let's look at this from a game design standpoint, which is what I think some people are missing.

What was one of the biggest problems with Shadowrun? Simply put the entire "Decker" class and the fact that to be a really good Decker you had to pretty much blow chips (compared to other PCs and threats made to challenge them) in the real world. Not to mention the fact that to design Cyberspace well took a lot of time and effort, and ultimatly amounted to running a seperate adventure during which time the rest of the PCs would twiddle their thumbs.

Not to mention the fact that logically there was no real reason for a Decker to ever subject himself to danger, which could make the game even more dull, if the Decker chooses to act totally by Sat link. I mean only an idiot would take a job that required physical infiltration if you think about it, and the whole logic of "self contained systems" holding all of the useful paydata was really stretching things to keep the game running. The bottom line is the only reason why these ridiciulous systems (which are impractical for a lot of reasons explained in various novels) existed, and why Deckers were taking stupid jobs specifically so they couldn't operate by remote (to be adequetly 'threatened' for their rewaqrd), and everything else was entirely contrived. Not to mention the work that needed to go into the whole cyberspace thing and the problems that arose there.

The Wireless idea *IS* dumb, even more so that what we had before, especially when you consider that everything from a jacket to a gun is linked into it somehow, and despite all common sense. Generally mechanical devices don't need to be electronically linked up. But the idea was that by setting things up like this it gave Deckers a reason to go places in person, and something to do while there.

As written the basic idea is basically that while the other PCs are fighting, the Decker can "attack" people by hacking their equipment. Say shutting off the guns of a security team (lord only knows how), screwing with someone's jacket, or whatever else. Indeed one thing that was mentioned but wasn't covered well was that supposedly in this society your Jacket or whatever might also be your MP-3 player. Giving a lot of flexibility for improvisation through this kind of hacking.

Now from a pure game design standpoint, I can see why they did this. But in doing so they created something that I don't think even most of the writers can truely envision or justify, which is why so many people talk about this aspect of "the new edition" in general.

The idea of the various "worldwide crisis events" are pretty typical however. Major events allow previous ideas and concepts to be resold after a bit of refurbishment. It's the same thing D&D has been pulling for years with say "The Forgotten Realms". New edition of game mechanics? "well okay we'll have some novelists write up some crud about gods whacking each other and clashing armies and mass devestation, and then we can sell new sourcebooks on "Waterdeep", "Cormyr", and all the other popular areas with some changes to reflect the latest crisis, but we can also re-use a lot of stuff, and sell to people who wanted the last edition which was out of print". As a result you rarely see them go into a lot of the more obscure areas or answer a lot of the tougher issues that have had people wondering for years.

Shadowrun seems to do the same thing, except instead of gods we have Matrix crashes and such. Then we get re-sold books on Seattle or whatever. smile.gif

Hindsight being what it is it's easy to criticize however. Truth be told I think they were generally right though to want to come up with a system like this to more fully intergrate The Decker-type into the party and give him something to do that didn't involve his own personal little adventure.

Though honestly, I think they should have looked towards a few other science fiction concepts, or even MMORPGs like "Anarchy Online".

Nano-Tech has been floating around in Shadowrun for a while, and if it was intergrated on a large scale, or even a smaller (but more availible) one, I could easily see Deckers attacking by programming Nanites like in Anarchy Online, given that the technique for dealing with swarms of microscopic robots and making programs for them would probably be a lot differant than controlling a single vehicle with your consciousness.

Not a great idea but buying and programming nanite swarms (or dealing with portions of a massive swarm around the planet) would probably have been a better way to go than this "Wireless" thing. smile.gif


>>>----Therumancer--->






Eyeless Blond
Ugh, SR as ubiquitous super-nanites? Bleagh; I'd rather go with Frank's Brainhacking Matrix rules, and I have some major difficulties with that idea.

The thing is, the SR3 decker rules weren't really all that bad; they were just inconsistent, very poorly organized, and had that extra fluff layer that was a holdover from SR2, where your decker went on an epic journey through the innards of the physical host, looking for the CPU at the center. Really the best way to run the Matrix would be the way that the rules discouraged the most: your Decker wafts through a representation of the building like a digital ghost, running overwatch and trying to avoid detection. If they detect you, they either trace you and you die from parachuting stormtroopers or whatever, or they Black Hammer you and you bleed your brains out through your nose.
KCKitsune
Maybe the idea that wireless signals can be routed through your clothing and/or guns should be dropped, but routing it through public infrastructure is logical. In England they're going that way.

The next paragraphs are COMPLETELY pulled out of my butt and there is no balance/sanity checks to see if it's workable. This is just me throwing out ideas.

Now here's an idea to make deckers believable again. Bring back the "cyberdeck". It is either a piece of cyberware which will cost a lot (min price of 80,000 nuyen.gif and cost 2 Essence) or cost 60,000 nuyen.gif , but can get lost and/or stolen. The cyberdeck would have integrated memory (so much that unless the GM is evil, then the decker can download it), and all the other dodadds that a Decker would need: Encephalon, Math SPU, Attention co-processors, simsense booster, and of course the processor (the Response).

Now the commlink in the main rule book would still allow a person to get online in AR (or if they have the cyberware version AR or VR). The commlink would be a combination Turtle cyberdeck (which if I remember correctly sucked majorly when it came to hacking) & radio. If I'm missing anything then please chime in. Now the commlink would still allow you to run some programs (like Stealth so you can hide yourself, Spoof so you can route your traffic though another wireless node, and Firewall so you can protect yourself), but it's Response would suck so badly (as compared to a cyberdeck) that it's not worth hacking with it (this would be the tool of Script Kiddies in SR).
Cthulhudreams
You've just made the system actively worse. If I can get nothing useful from my wireless connection because it is made of feta cheese and fail, why do I have one? Why not press the off switch?
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Apr 15 2008, 12:51 AM) *
You've just made the system actively worse. If I can get nothing useful from my wireless connection because it is made of feta cheese and fail, why do I have one? Why not press the off switch?


If that was directed to me, I did say that I was just throwing out ideas. Those ideas were neither balanced nor sanity checked. I was just trying to get people thinking.
nathanross
Nice writing Therumancer. You really summed it up. Not sure I agree with your solutions though.

Kitsune, I also agree that the deck needs to return. However, before the deck can return, the Matrix rules need a complete workover. The main issues that I see:
  • Extended tests (I used to love them until I realized that there is no point in even doing it because they will eventually get in; there is no way to fail)
  • Skill + Program is just stupid. We have been using Logic + Skill (hits limited to program rating), but this is not even a fix as Extended tests still mean they always win given some time.
  • Getting in is easy, its doing stuff that is the issue. An opposed test should be called for and a security tally kept. I know this may not have been the most popular rule, but it is great balance.
  • My current idea for the opposed test is a threshold based on ACIFS ratings that is modified by the programs. On the other hand the system would role against Masking. (thats the way it worked right?)

I know the biggest problem with the old Matrix rules was the size and complexity, but that was also their strength. A real solid way to get the best of both worlds would just be to come up with a bullet proof base system, and then make an optional quick way to resolve things. That is much better than throwing all previous work out the window for a Matrix that is so lackluster I dont even want to deck it.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (nathanross @ Apr 15 2008, 02:45 AM) *
Nice writing Therumancer. You really summed it up. Not sure I agree with your solutions though.

Kitsune, I also agree that the deck needs to return. However, before the deck can return, the Matrix rules need a complete workover.


Yup. I made my original post so I could get people talking and brainstorming.
ornot
I can't in all honesty claim "handwavium" as mine own, but I do like it.

I intend to address the question of why anyone would bother with a commlink or wirelessly enabling any of their kit. I shan't get into the whole debate about how to make the matrix better, although the role of the hacker in a party does intersect somewhat.

Everyone is keen on boosting their DPs, and by being more wirelessly enabled the hacker is better able to provide everyone with AR bonuses. Sure you can switch off your link, but then you also loose comms, and shared gun telemetry data. Low tech radios could provide comms, but those are about as likely to be tapped as commlink traffic. It boils down to this: If people are prepared to spend 10BP on a single dice, why would they not spend 1BP on a potential 4 dice?

Those bonuses are prevented from becoming penalties due to opposing hacker actions by the team's hacker running security overwatch. To a certain extent a team doesn't even need a specialist hacker - considering the cheapness of buying hacking programs anyone can run as a script kiddy. It's entirely possible that one slightly more techy orientated character could run overwatch and provide a gun at the same time. I think it's all part of trying to integrate hacking into the party so it doesn't become a whole separate adventure, however entertaining that might have been.

Synner: The ability of a corp to track commlink users transactions and day to day activity is canon. For this reason there is a (lamentably short) section on how runners avoid being traced. It boils down to spoofing your signal, or paying a hacker to spoof it for you. I eagerly await some more clarification on this in Unwired, although I dislike that that supplement must be regarded as panacea for SR4's matrix ills.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (ornot @ Apr 15 2008, 05:18 AM) *
I can't in all honesty claim "handwavium" as mine own, but I do like it.


I first heard the term on spacebattles.com

The whole phrase is handwavium unobtainium. It describes those materials that have never heard of before now.
hobgoblin
to tell the truth, i keep getting the real life feel that unless your into tech, you dont really care about computer security.

hell, my parents computer would not have any usable anti-virus installed if i didnt take active steps towards maintaining it.

as in, the hackers and corp security knows that the network is swiss cheese, but the joe on the street and the ceo just want his life to be simpler, so its either allow it or get replaced by a yes-man.

there always have been and always will be a trade off between ease of use and security.

and unless you work in security every day, your preference will rest with ease of use.
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