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Stahlseele
no you would not . . with enough recoil-compensation you add the burst/fa-damage to the precision . . and if anything, i would try to ADD that mode instead of replacing SA with BF or FA . . maybe for those time when you need to make one desperate attempt to make something not like being where you're aiming at . . one of those edge-situations maybe for example *g*
CanRay
QUOTE (Ed_209a @ Apr 21 2008, 01:59 PM) *
Anyone strong enough and massive enough to manage the M2's recoil won't mind the M2's weight. (90lbs + ammo)

That's what I was thinking.

I can just see some NAN Troll Soldier with an ancient M2HB modified for personal use with a Pistol Grip and a Shoulder Brace. Probably working with the Wildcats...
ornot
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Apr 21 2008, 12:25 PM) *
Actually, with a tripod, (instead of a gyro harness) one is able to get full recoil compensation on the minigun without need of strength enhancement.

Tripod 6
Gas vent 3
Folding Stock 1
Electronic Firing or Personalized Grip 1
Cyberarm Gyromount 3
= 14 RC, and able to fire full auto from the Vindicator with no penalty. Of course, then you have to lug a tripod around and set it up.


Is the tripod RC stackable with gyromount RC?

I seem to recall there was quite a lot of stuff that would not stack according to Arsenal, but I don't have my book with me to check.
Stahlseele
i don't really know why it would stack . .
Tarantula
I didn't include a gyromount in my recoil figures. Rather, a cyberarm gyromount. Which is in fact a gyro system built into the cyberarms wrist, which would stabilize the users arm more so than the gun, which is where I believe the bonus comes from. Also, I did check with arsenal, and they do stack by RAW.
Stahlseele
hmm . . would 2 cyber-arm gyromounts and the gyromount harness stack?
Tarantula
No. The cyberarm gyromount states it is not cumulative with the harness. I'd even argue that 2 arm mounts don't work together, but nothing forbids it. Hrm, one cyberarm with 3 cyberarm gyromounts anyone? +9RC in the arm? (Hell, make it a bulky arm and it can fit 4 for a +12 in your cyberarm alone!)

Its too good if you let it stack with itself, thats why I don't think it does.
WearzManySkins
If you are using a Tripod, gyro mounts(Harness or Arms) not attached to the tripod do not stack. Weapon mount gyrostabilizaton is a different matter.

Stacking a Tripod with any Gyro mount is PURE CHEESE. grinbig.gif

WMS
Serial_Peacemaker
The Best part is with the Military Armor you can put in cyberarm gyromounts in, and not have to worry about the essence.
Tarantula
Hrm, interesting.... Looking it over, the harness is called gyro-stabilization, and the cyberarm is a gyromount. So, a strict reading, you can't combine tripod + cyberarm gyromount, but you can combine a tripod + gyro-stabilization harness.
CanRay
Stick the Gyro-Harness onto the Tripod, and there you go. Better degrees of fire! Like the old Anti-Aircraft set-ups for Bren Guns.
WearzManySkins
Augmentation page 148
Emphasis mine
QUOTE
Recoil compensation from an auto-adjusting weight, bipod, foregrip, gyromount, sling, tripod, or underbarrel weight are
not cumulative with each other
(except that the compensation from a foregrip and sling can be combined into an overall recoil compensation of 2).


Note gyromounts is not defined by "some" interpretations. To me it means all gyromounts, harness, arms and weapons gyromounts.

WMS
WearzManySkins
Obviously some here do not know what gyrostablizaton is and how it works.

WMS
WearzManySkins
RAW page 311
emphasis mine
QUOTE
Gyro Stabilization: Th is is a heavy upper-body harness with an attached, articulated gyro-stabilized arm that mounts a rifle or heavy weapon. Th e system neutralizes up to 6 points of recoil and movement modifiers. Attaching or removing a weapon takes a Simple Action. Getting into the gyro-mount takes 5 minutes, while using the built-in quick release to get out of it takes a Complex Action.

Says Gyro-mount to me. So it does not stack with tripods. grinbig.gif

WMS
Tarantula
Yes wearz, that is the exact passage I was referring to. Gyromount = Cyberarm Gyromount. Gyro-Stabilization = Harness. Though, Looking at it again, the tripod and harness both take the "Under" slot, and so aren't compatible either.

Edit: You posted while I was looking in the books. The Harness is not named a gyro-mount, but it is described as one. Regardless, they don't work because they take the same slot.
Daier Mune
QUOTE (Shiloh @ Apr 21 2008, 10:53 AM) *
(which I'll handwave away by saying that Mr Ventura didn't have a 2050s gyroharness...)


oh i think that a troll with a gyro-harness could heft and fire a vindicator, but they're still going to suffer recoil when firing at things. technology may have progressed over 70 years, but the laws of physics remain the same.

as for heavy barrels and gas vents on a gattling gun, i'd only allow it if the cost was mulitplied by the number of barrels. its only fair.
aussie elf
It can be useful but you have to "want it" as a friend says. For a man potable way to use the Vindicator it MUST be used with a gyro harness. A character I've had been playing for a long time got one. With skill 5 + 8 modified agil. and a 6 mod. strength (one point of natural recoil comp.) you start with zero dice. Then you add the gyro and if you have the money a smart link and you can have 8 dice to hit something with 20P, or take away 14 defense dice from the target with a wide burst.
Now because there are more efficient and cheaper ways to shoot stuff I refer you to the begining of the post, "you have to want it", I know I did smile.gif
Critias
QUOTE (GrepZen @ Apr 21 2008, 08:24 AM) *
I recall that the mini used in preadator was modified to use .22 rounds as anuthing larger made it impossible to manuver & fire but Jesse "Sgt. Slaughter/The Body" Ventura. Jesse is big but, he ain't no troll so if it can work IRL I don't see why it can't be modded in SR for man portable use. At worst (stat wise) it would be similar to a machine pistol, just with a greater ROF and no conceal.

For the record -- just as a child of the 80's, I have to clear this up -- Jesse Ventura wasn't Sgt. Slaughter. The two were completely different wrestler/entertainers, who both just happened to have ridiculously awesome giant chins to match their steroid-enhanced muscles.
IC-Pick
QUOTE (Critias @ Apr 22 2008, 01:53 AM) *
For the record -- just as a child of the 80's, I have to clear this up -- Jesse Ventura wasn't Sgt. Slaughter. The two were completely different wrestler/entertainers, who both just happened to have ridiculously awesome giant chins to match their steroid-enhanced muscles.


Lol, I was going to if you didn't!
DocTaotsu
QUOTE (Daier Mune @ Apr 22 2008, 12:22 AM) *
oh i think that a troll with a gyro-harness could heft and fire a vindicator, but they're still going to suffer recoil when firing at things. technology may have progressed over 70 years, but the laws of physics remain the same.


Well technically speaking... with magic having returned in 2012... wink.gif
CanRay
That's a way to do it! Get a Troll Mage to make a Spell that handles the Recoil. Then he handles the bloody thing like it was a really fast assault rifle!
Tarantula
You mean enhance aim?

Though, with double uncompensated recoil, an actual recoil comp spell would be better.
CanRay
An actual Recoil Comp spell would be better indeed. Then lock an Enhance Aim spell, and there you go! Sniping and firing Full-Auto at the same time!

Whereupon we have the third spell: "Transmute Security Goon To Hamburg"
Stahlseele
hmm . . would levitate keep the minigun in place if you were to fire it? would you let the force or net successes of levitate count as recoil compensation? O.o
ornot
I'm pretty sure the force dictates the strength of the telekinesis spell.

To have a high enough strength to reach the RC thresholds in Arsenal you're looking at bloody high force.
Stahlseele
hrm, probably . . but a STR6 spell with the 6 hits would lift 6x200 kilo or something . . but STR6 would only generate a Recoil Compensation of 1 @.@
IC-Pick
QUOTE (ornot @ Apr 22 2008, 11:46 AM) *
I'm pretty sure the force dictates the strength of the telekinesis spell.

To have a high enough strength to reach the RC thresholds in Arsenal you're looking at bloody high force.


Actually, Im not sure that it translates... Not that I am at home with my books, but I think that levitate is able to carry alot more than someone of force strength. If you went with more specific parameters, note that I have designed a spell since the grimoire lol, but, you could go with physical, personal only, and have it augment your strength only with regards to recoil... minor mind interaction to know what you want to do as you do it without taking an action to command it to move your arms.
Tarantula
Levitate can't shoot the gun, thats what magic fingers is for. And that'd take a high force to get useful RC out of it.
IC-Pick
Actually levitate was to hold the weapon steady. You would still be pulling the trigger.
Tarantula
And I'd argue again, levitate is not for fine control. You can hold the gun up yes, but working with levitate to accurately aim it near anything is beyond the control of the levitate spell. Thats what magic fingers is for.
IC-Pick
Oh right, gotcha, I wasn't using levitate itself, but thinking of it as a basis for a new spell. I imagine Magic fingers would work well as a base as well, it has the fine control, but levitate has the strength. Either would need altering.
Stahlseele
Magic Hands, more Fine-control than Levitate, more Power than magic Fingers, less Power than Levitate, less Fine-control than magic fingers
CanRay
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Apr 22 2008, 03:23 PM) *
Magic Hands, more Fine-control than Levitate, more Power than magic Fingers, less Power than Levitate, less Fine-control than magic fingers

So many jokes... Just... So many.

Too easy.
Stahlseele
bring 'em all, you know you want to *g*
Daier Mune
QUOTE (DocTaotsu @ Apr 22 2008, 11:26 AM) *
Well technically speaking... with magic having returned in 2012... wink.gif


...you know what? i'm okay with that. if you're willing to have your big heavy weapons guy team up with the group's spell slinger and make a recoil compensation spell, i don't see any problems with that. whats the point of having advanced technology and magic if you can't comine the two? teamwork and smart planning are a shadowrunner's ultimate weapons.
Shrapnel
QUOTE (CanRay @ Apr 21 2008, 11:33 AM) *
Which is the reason for the Vindicator, really. It's a Crew-Served Weapon after all.

I mean, how many Shadowrunners go around lugging a M2-HB .50 BMG Heavy Machine Gun?

...

I just gave Troll players an idea, didn't I?

QUOTE (krakjen @ Apr 21 2008, 12:07 PM) *
That would be the Stoner-Ares M107 I guess.

QUOTE (CanRay @ Apr 21 2008, 12:22 PM) *
Yep! Or the Ultimax HMG-2.

QUOTE (IC-Pick @ Apr 21 2008, 01:53 PM) *
I always disagreed with the uncompensated recoil on heavy weapons being doubled as well. Judging from RL weapons and SR damage codes, it would seem that:

LMG's are normal AR caliber weapons ie the SAW which is a support maghinegun that fires the same .223 that an m16 uses
MMG's are heavier rifle caliber weapons used in most good sniper rifles and hunting weapons, ie the m60 utilizing .308's
HMG's would be the 50 calibers and the like.

If i have uncompensated recoil from my m16, I would expect alot more 'felt' recoil than with a SAW, due simply to the lack of weight of the m16 comparatively.


I've never been quite convinced that the HMG class weapons are actually .50 caliber...

If you take a closer look at the damage codes, they don't quite fit into that range. The only weapon we can safely assume is a .50 BMG is the Barrett 121, which has an SR3 damage code of 14D. This makes sense, given the armor-piercing nature of the cartridge.

The next closest we get in SR3 is the rest of the Sniper Rifle class of weapons, which are 14S. I've always felt this is comparable to a .338 Lapua or some form of Ultra Mag.

The next damage code we have is the HMG, at 10S. We'll skip this for the moment.

The MMG class weapons come in at 9S, the same as the larger sporting rifles. This leads me to believe that they are in the .308 caliber range, or something comparable. This also fits rather loosely with the Ultimax MMG in SR3, which would likely be a 7.62x39.

The LMG comes in at 7S, and using real world weapons as an example, we can assume that this is .223 caliber weapon. As for why it has a higher damage code than the Assault Rifles using the same cartridge, that's a topic for a different debate.

This brings us back to the 10S damage code of the HMG, which is considerably less than the 14D of the Barrett's .50 BMG cartridge. Yet it is just slightly higher than the 9S of the .308 caliber MMG, which leads me to believe that it is actually more along the lines of a .30-06 cartridge, or 7.62x54R. Combining this with the example of the SR3 RPK HMG, which is likely a descendant of the 7.62x54R machinegun of the same name, I feel this caliber more closely fits the damage code than the .50 BMG.

Please keep in mind that all of these examples are using SR3 damage codes, not SR4. I do not have SR4, but would be interested to know how they changed the damage codes of the weapons listed above. Please also keep in mind that this is all subjective, and is based solely on my personal opinion.

With that being said, who's up for an M2-HB with the same damage code as the Barrett?!? eek.gif love.gif notworthy.gif

Comments welcome! extinguish.gif
Fabe
QUOTE (CanRay @ Apr 22 2008, 04:42 PM) *



Then later on as the troll sits down to eat a sandwich a smart mouth elf comes along taps him in the head with a baseball bat and says "Yo,whats up"
krakjen
QUOTE (Shrapnel @ Apr 23 2008, 05:06 AM) *
Comments welcome! extinguish.gif

Well, you have the vehicle weapons who do some crazy damage.
Like the Vigilant/Victory autocannon from rigger3. But with damage codes of 18D and 20D respectively they are most likely 20 and 30mm cannons.
That would also make the Panther Cannon a 20mm by the way.

And them I just realized the Vermicide autocannon from the BBB with his 12D damage code is perfectly filling the .50 BMG HMG role.
(A little less damage than the barrett yes, but it's not using some kind of crazy high explosive incendiary armor piercing ammo (yes, they do exist))
Shrapnel
I also like to think of the Panther Cannon as being 20mm, but have always wondered how they got it to hold 22 rounds in that tiny magazine... question.gif
krakjen
A four column (double-double-stack) magazine with one in the chamber?

Or else... MAGIC!
Stahlseele
ah, yes, the magical clip of howling . . erm, holding *g*
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