At what point did I even mention Availability, or using tests, or doing away with roleplaying anything? I even described a roleplaying-type situation in my post. Don't read shit into my posts that isn't there.

In theory though, isn't that what your fixer is for? Making deals and pulling strings behind the scenes to get your name on the patient and implant list at the Corp controlled resort/delta clinic? A couple hospital admins who are paid to turn a blind eye. A skilled cybersurgeon who's eager to make some extra off the books. Paying though the nose for the delta cyber/bio so that all the accounts balance and the doc don't get burned. There you go. A shadow clinic doesn't have to be some organized crime front, or few well equipped rooms in a down and out doctor's house (although, it's so much cooler when it is, no doubt). Personally, I think the roleplaying fun of something happening while the group is as the resort/Delta grade clinic would be just as much fun as the work to get into it.

And sometime, a player just want to upgrade their gear. Why jerk people around if that's all they want? I mean, besides from the standard "it's fun to jerk around your players because as a GM, you're something of a sadist, and since the players keep showing up every week, they're implied consent..." which is all that's typically needed.

No deltaware allowed, even though per RAW it's available? I don't think I'd ever play a character who needed deltaware in your game. You are clearly biased in favor of mages, and you'd rather not let sammies eke out the slight advantages they can squeeze out of deltaware at great personal expense.

I also don't think you should just make a roll to get access to a delta clinic. They're not omgwtf rare, but they aren't everywhere. Even a black clinic would take a lot of work to find, and the other places to get deltaware installed would need legwork too. It's just not that there's 12 in the world, the GM shouldn't be telling people "you can't have this even though the book says you can, since I'm a dinosaur who liked SR3's bullshit about high quality medical care being one of the rarest things on the planet."

It seems to me that these contrived examples (in my view of the 6th world) provided by multiple people seek to reduce the task to rolling dice to get something. I feel it important for the player's sense of accomplishment and me to provide a vivid living and breathing world that I provide obstacles for them to reasonably overcome. I think the die rolling represents a portion of the legwork and that any item of real importance to a character should have some back story along with it. Ogre - your point about contacts is quite valid and if that works for you and your group, more power to you. Me and my players like to work for our gear. Scrape up from the bottom so to speak. And I'm not liek that all the time, but deltaware, initiating, t-brids, etc. anything that is treated as rare as hell deserves, that way I see it, special attention and probably deserves more that just a handful of die rolls to be achieved. It feels like I'm robbing the players of an oppurtunity to explore a great accomplishment for their player if I just treat it as such.

I guess in short, you all have made some really valid points and I think each has great merit. I just feel that it important to keep the rare things rare and make it more than just an upgrade of equipment. I mean, how many D&D players still regale others (or at least try to) with their quest to obtain that +5 Longsword of Demonkilling? Why should Shadowrunners not get that same sense of accomplishment? And I still think anyone withthe cred to create a black delta clinic would retire with the money rather than invest in such a venture, but I suppose there's no fun in that.

I don't feel it's a bias, I just feel that if I make the awakened roleplay their initiations (a critical part of being a mage) then the sammies are in the same boat when it comes to deltaware...it can be had, but you have to work for it would have been a better way to say it. The whole not likely to have it is mostly attributed to the fact that there is still a hefty nuyen cost associated with it and my runners generally are too busy surviving and paying for weapons and contact info to afford it (same problem the mages have with initiating really). I certainly worded my post incorrectly.

why?
one big sum once or several not quite so big sums more often over a long time? O.o

To come back to the OT, keep in mind that becoming a CZ also raises your natural attribute caps by the number of essence points below zero, rounded down (which also increases your augmented maximums accordingly).
Nice side effect if you're looking into really pushing your DPs beyond all that's humanly possible.



Rercently, i've also put some creative thinking into reasons for becoming a CZ that happen to be a little bit more obscure than raw power, coming up with the following :

- Ultimate Burned-out Mage

The term "cyberlich" has been making the rounds on this board for a while now, originally coined for non-combat oriented CZs (or CZs that didn't have combat as their primary focus), folks with absurdly high mental attributes spending their unlife to cook up brilliant schemes and develop cutting-edge technology for their mother corporation.

I have decided to take this one step further, thinking about ways to build a really nasty awakened CZ.

If you have already lowered your magic attribute to 1 or 2, you might as well be consequential about it and be satisfied with Magic (1) and absolutely ridiculous shitloads of 'ware at your disposal (in fact, if you have already lost your magic attribute due to burnout, becoming a CZ is the only way to become awakened again short of infecting yourself with certain strains of HMHVV).
There's still tons of useful things a burnout can do beyond being the evil samurai bitch monster of death, like counterspelling, astral combat and stuff.
A collection of spells still useful at force 2 might come in handy.

Imagine an astrally projecting CZ, accompanied by his usual background count, with maxed-out astral Agility, tearing you up with a combat axe weapon focus...

Another spin on this might be an adept CZ.
One force point is still better than just having a nominal magical attribute for being dual-natured, right?



Cyberzombie-Zombies

Well, not real zombies, but recently, there was this twisted idea that crossed my mind :
See, there's constantly new corporations reverse-engineering cybermancy.
They find some obscure sect or 4th-world tribe or whatnot telling them how to pull off those creepy soulbinding rituals (or just let a team of runners steal them from a rival corp).
So, there's jet another corporation that has the know-how to build CZs...theoretically.
When they want to apply said know-how in practice, however, the have to test it.

Which raises the question on whom they test it in the initial stages when things are prone to go terribly wrong, that tricky phase when testing on animals is done and first clinical trials begin.

Sure, they could look for a PC who's stupid enough to undergo experimental cybermancy voluntarily or just kidnap a bunch of SINles- or they could use test subjects really no one would be looking for.
Like ghouls, dzoo-noo-quas, goblins...imagine some of those, with a bunch of hyper-invasive 'ware crammed into them, most likely including some orientation goad or stirrup interface for additional biodrone fun.
Especially ghouls offer the advantage of being already experienced in astral perception and dual-natured combat.

ah yes, the idea of starting the cyberzombie from the zombie side instead of the cyber side O.o

I think a CZ should be unable to astrally project. All of that work to bind him permanently into a dead body, and now poof, he just files on out of there? Not in my sandbox he doesn't... Or at least if he did, his body would die and he'd be stuck in astral space. Cybermancy sustains the soul and body , even though both are technically dead, by fusing them back together. They can't be seperated without both of them dying again IMO.

yeah, PROJECTION is a big no-no, but PERCEPTION is still good enough to whack something on the astral *g*

I agree with Larme on this one...I have a hard time with you have a backgrround count and astrally projecting, but that is just me. I supposed it is possible in the RAW.

RAW doesn't explicitly forbid it, but that might be just because the devs -unsurprisingly- didn't put that much thought into awakened CZs.

I also fully understand the whole reasoning behind houseruling out the possibility, even though i'd personally argue that the astral body doesn't equal the soul or whatever else is bound to a CZ's body.

Another problem one might want to consider would be possible problems with the IMS.
IMHO, as there's still some sort of metaphysical connection and whatever happens to your physical self also aflicts your astrally projected being, the IMS would still work on a projecting zombie, but i could not really deny it if anybody claims that -at least prolonged- absences of your consciousness from your body could have catastrophic consequences regarding the whole CDS issue.

Depends on wether you want CZs flying around on the astral in your game or not.

Still, even a merely astrally perceiving CZ is a nasty opponent in astral combat- and given the obligatory dual nature and the background count issue, wouldn't even have to be awakened to prove a grave threat to most spirits coming into his way.

I look at group runs to get a player Deltaware the same way I look at a metaplanes initiation; a personal ordeal that that runner's friends accompany him on to get him to the cutting edge of what he can be. Moreover, I do think you should have to fudge the corporate system or gain favor to have it done.. for one, it makes sense to me, being as how Deltaware is described, and what's more, because it's frigging awesome to execute a multi-run chain to get the surgery approved, Free Radical-style.

in SR3, a CZ just DIED if it entered an Astral Shallow or was somehow made to go onto the Astral Plane

In SR3, a CZ also wasn't automatically considered dual-natured, IIRC.
Considering that the whole issue of becoming and being a CZ has been heavily retconned, older editions might be considered even less of a concern than usual when discussing SR4 zombification.

That's not retconning, that's PROGRESS!

An excellent point. Part of the fun of SR is how, as the years go by, what was once wiz, becomes more commonplace. What was once nearly impossible, becomes doable. The world has progress. That too is cool, and should be kept in mind. Especially going back to the discussion on finding/getting access to Delta grade cyber in general...

maybe it's just me, but don't cyberzombies automatically lose their awakened qualities, iirc?

is that somewhere in the rules?
but even if they do so, they gain the 1 pint of magic and become dual natured, so if they somehow had aquired the spell casting and or summoning skills while being a mundane and became a cyber-zombie they would be able to do those things again . . it's kinda hazy on the subject *g*

This is what I was thinking as well. The Cybermancy itself is their awakened quality now, not magician or adept or whatever else they might have had. A magician's spellcasting and summoning would become knowledges. I can't remember if cyberzombies have astral sight, but if they did they could keep assensing skill. But pretty much your now only magically active in that you are still ALIVE (by some definition...)

They are dual-natured, so yeah they pretty much have permanent astral sight...

and you are your own weapon-focus and small magical tac-nuke too . .

hmmm... on closer inspection, here's what would happen, afaict:

1) any essence loss *prior* to becoming a cyber-zombie will reduce the awakened character's magic. should this ever reach 0, the character

it doesn't explicitly say that awakened qualities are lost, but imo they should be at this point. regardless, it is obvious (from the above) that since they must go below 0 essence to become a cyber-zombie, an awakened character would need a magic attribute of *at least* 7, or has purchased 7 points total at some point or another, in order to retain their skills (once again, the quality itself is a little iffy) through the process of becoming a cyber-zombie. meaning we're talking a grade 1 initiate at least. if they lose the quality itself (i personally would rule that they do) then
. if not, they would have to repurchase all of their magical skills over again.

2) the cyberzombie's magic is permanently set to 1, as is the initiate grade (since they must have initiated if they are retaining the quality at all for this discussion to be relevant)

this means that their initiate grade would also be limited to 1, because


that's a pretty unimpressive magician, adept, or whatever-else right there, imo. still, it *could* happen, i suppose. if we rule that their background count is aspected to them (a fairly reasonable ruling imo), it might actually even make them not completely useless.

so it looks like it is possible. imo, it should be rare and difficult and extremely unlikely, at best (and given they automatically lose any possible technomancer quality, i would be inclined to apply the same to any magical qualities), but if you assume that the writers had the above rules in mind when they were writing (a bit iffy imo to assume they *intended* that their be magician cyberzombies, but unless Frank steps in we will likely never know for sure) it is in fact possible to have a magician cyberzombie. go figure.

It makes me shudder in new and uncomfortable ways...kind of like readily available deltaware

Wait, do the rules say that CZs lose the technomancer quality?

That would offer e pointer-clue as to the root nature of technomancy...

Not really. You lose the techno quality when you go below 1 essence. Since heading below 0 points is inherent in cybermancy, it is also inherent that you will burn out.

Technomancy and Awakened status are mutually exclusive. You cannot have one and the other. So if you were a TM prior to be a CZ as soon as your Essence hit 0 you would lose your technomancy skills and "burn out" for lack of a better term. Then you would awaken per RAW as a CZ with cybermancy.

Not if they'd submerged

Edit: Magus's awakening point is completely true.

So, technically, by RAW, is it possible, rules-wise, to have a submerged technomancer also gain the cybermancy quality?

Ahh, you're first post made it sound like it was just a decrease of Essence, thus allowing Resonance to still have a score if submerged. But the whole CZ awakening thing prett much kills all of Resonance. Man I need to grab Augmentation.

yes you do, the cyber-limbs are for the first time in SR-History a viable replacement

This means that awakened cyberzombies are, by RAW, certainly possible, and without additional complications, as no part of the rules claims that anything but this reduction of the Magic attribute would apply.

Of course, we are not dealing with an impressive magician here.
However, that's not the point.

What we are dealing with is a character with shitloads of 'ware, the usual awesomeness of being a cyberzombie, expertise in astral combat and assensing plus such benefits as increased spell resistance and the ability to bind foci.

For a mage already close to complete burnout, that's a fair deal.

There comnes the point where you don't have to think about adding 'ware to your mage, but adding some magic to your 'ware.

and being his own aspected domain probably . . so if he generates a background-count of 5 he gets all the benefits too

I thought about that, but discarded it as too cheesy.

However, if the CZ happens to be a cybermancer himself...

the probability is pretty good . . because the cybermancers are probably hermetics and the zombiefied mage is probably hermetic too, because shamans probably think the stuff is icky and yucky . . probably . .

Aren't the traditions that have had home grown cybermancy generally been shamanic? I mean originally the Azzies were not heremetics.

A person rises to the apex of twisted magic rituals, one of the few in the whole world able to perform cybermancy... And then they throw it away by becoming cyberzombies??? I don't think so.

You can't use aspected background count above your magic for anything. Its capped. So 1 extra die.

But if he has Geomancer he can aspect it to himself, at least within a given area.

He can also summon Watchers = CHA and F2 Spirits.

So a fair amount of tricks are available for the Awakened CZ Mage.

excuse me, before you start with your condescending style of posting again, please read up carefully, i never said anything about the magician himself being an cybermancer, that was somebody else . . i just said that it's more likely that a hermetic would have the cybermancy done to him and that it's more likely that the cybermancer doing the cybermancy to the soon to be cybermanced hermetic is also a hermetic . .

Before you attack my posting style, why not just clarify your position and let me admit my mistake? A misunderstanding of someone's post is not a crime, you shouldn't treat it like an insult. These things happen.

< Captain Chaos >Children, don't make me turn this thread around and go back home.< /Captain Chaos >

Sorry, couldn't help it.

no, that just means if a mage with a magic of 12 (or whatever) became a cyberzombie, their magic would be reduced to 1 instead of just 12-essence loss.

a mage with a magic of 5, for example, would first go down to essence <1 along the way, losing their magic attribute entirely, and would then become a cyberzombie having previously had a magic attribute of 0. technically, that is. however, if they were a mage right up until the 'ware was installed, i could certainly see it as being reasonable that they don't lose their magical skills (provided you're already ok with the idea of magician cyberzombies, which i believe i have mentioned several times i am not, but that's neither here nor there).



nope, pretty sure it's not hermetic. or at least, if it is, it's probably twisted hermetic. but quite possibly it's some kind of wacky cybermancy tradition all of it's own.

[edit] to answer second quote [/edit]