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HentaiZonga
So, running down the numbers:

Delta-grade cyberware reduces the Essence cost by 50%.
Adapsin reduces it by another 10%.
Getting the 'ware designed as a package reduces it by another 10%.

Given the sheer amount of money poured into cybermancy, it seems like it'd be more cost-effective and reliable to just go ahead and slap those together - and if possible, find people with the Biocompatability Quality for another -10%. If you get all those ducks in a row, you're looking at a total Essence cost reduction of -80% - meaning four full cyberlimbs, a torso, a skull, a chameleon dermal sheath 3, titanum bone lacing, move-by-wire 3, reaction enhancers 3, two eyes, two ears, an encephalon 2, a balance tail, a blood circuit control system, and a skillwire expert system all cost a measly 3.71 Essence - leaving 2.379999 points for stuffing full of Delta-grade bioware and genetech.

It looks like, if you do it right (using up Capacity instead of Essence whenever possible), you can fit every single piece of 'ware in the book into a guy without dropping them below 1 Essence. So as of 2070, is cybermancy really necessary anymore?
CanRay
You mean other than Adapsin and Packages being brand spanking new and just on the market, whereas Cybermancy has been around for awhile now?

But there's other benefits from Cybermancy... Evil, sinister benefits that grant power and glory! devil.gif
Fortune
Also keep in mind that with Cybermancy, it is not really necessary to use all those expensive Delta implants anyway.
HMHVV Hunter
What's Adapsin?
CanRay
Adapsin: Augmentation: Page 90.

Brand. Spanking. New.

And untested. Bet it causes cancer.
Glyph
Cyberzombies are more like guinea pigs for unscrupulous corporations than optimized sammies. They are mainly NPCs, but there are rules for using them as PCs, with enough drawbacks to discourage most of them from actually doing so (this was far more pronounced in SR3, though).
CanRay
QUOTE (Fortune @ Apr 22 2008, 10:08 PM) *
Also keep in mind that with Cybermancy, it is not really necessary to use all those expensive Delta implants anyway.

Different costs are involved. And, if you don't have access to a Delta Clinic...
HentaiZonga
QUOTE (HMHVV Hunter @ Apr 23 2008, 04:12 AM) *
What's Adapsin?


A new Genetech bioware from Augmentation. Costs 0.20 Essence and 45,000 nuyen, and reduces all cyberware Essence costs by 10%.
HentaiZonga
QUOTE (CanRay @ Apr 23 2008, 04:16 AM) *
Different costs are involved. And, if you don't have access to a Delta Clinic...


I thought all Cybermancy required access to a Delta Clinic, anyways?
Fortune
I understand that, and actually never said anything at all about a Clinic. My point is that you can make a Cyberzombie with only used 'ware if you wanted to. There is no need for Alpha, Beta, and/or Deltaware to be installed, as Essense is not as much of a factor.
CanRay
Sorry, meant the 'Ware, not the Clinic. Deltaware systems are expensive not just in the installation, but the building, as well.

Heck, if you wanted to really cheap out, and screw over the Cyberzombie for whatever reason, maybe make the most Sinister Cyberzombie around, use Used Cybernetics for it!
Larme
There are all kinds of reasons to cyberzombie. I don't remember the rules entirely, but I'm pretty sure they're a) faster, b) harder to kill, and c) practically immune to magic. Really, magic is the samurai's achilles heel. The cyberzombie is thus a streetsam without any weaknesses. Yeah...
DocTaotsu
QUOTE (CanRay @ Apr 22 2008, 10:14 PM) *
Adapsin: Augmentation: Page 90.

Brand. Spanking. New.

And untested. Bet it causes cancer.

Course you realize that cybermancy causes cancer...


I can't find it right now but I'm pretty sure all the ware you use in the cybermantic rituals have to be delta.

I will also note that you cybermance the best people you have, not just people with the right genes. I'd imagine they need a specific psyche profile, magical aura, etc to predispose them to... exiting their body and entering a jar full of soul.

And while the methods you mention do mean you can fit more into less, keep in mind that a cyberzombie can fit twice that and that means they can use wares that are beyond what's mentioned in the core books. You want him to shoot bees from his mouth and lasers out of his kneecaps? Well now you've got the room.

With all the new tech they certainly are overkill... but these are corps hitters man, they are by definition overkill.
krakjen
Indeed, they are pretty much the walking equivalent of a Thor Shot.
DocTaotsu
And you're leaving off the fact that they can call in Thor shots and soak the damage reasonably well. Why is the cyberzombie laughing? Cause he knows how boned you are, that's why.
krakjen
That, or because he is a batshit crazy psychopathic maniac.
DocTaotsu
Or a combination of the two... But wait! Don't run! Don't run! You'll only die tired!

Man, this makes me want to drop a... NOOOO!!!! YES!!!!

MOOO HOOO HAAAAAA HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHHAA

*scampers off to the dark corners of the world with his copy of Augmentation and Man&Machine*
HentaiZonga
QUOTE (DocTaotsu @ Apr 23 2008, 07:22 AM) *
Or a combination of the two... But wait! Don't run! Don't run! You'll only die tired!

Man, this makes me want to drop a... NOOOO!!!! YES!!!!

MOOO HOOO HAAAAAA HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHHAA

*scampers off to the dark corners of the world with his copy of Augmentation and Man&Machine*


Is there anything from M&M that didn't make it into Augmentation, that would have been useful if it had?
Stahlseele
no . . only boosted reflexes for a cheap and quick +1 initiative something *g*
as for cybermancy?
it's still evil, it's still cruise control for cool!
ElFenrir
I second the boosted reflexes. What it looks like is they traded this for the ability to buy passes with Edge. Both 3 and 4 had Wired, Move by Wire, Synaptics, Adept Power and Magic. 4e has Edge passes, 3e had Boosted.

Though I have to admit i miss those boosteds. They were great for on the budget initative, even though they had rather crappy preformance overall, couldn't be removed and weren't compatible with some ware. They could stack with Synaptics though.)
Leofski
How do the reductions apply? I've always applied each separately leading to a very respectable 64.55% reduction in cost, rather than the 80% used at the top of this thread. On a quick flick through the books I can't a specific ruling, but without a specific clause that the reductions stack I'd treat them individually.
DocTaotsu
Man and Machine is one of my favorite game supplements of all time, despites all it's crunchy bits. If I'm going to think up dark awful things involving bioware, cyberware, and cyberzombies, I'd use both books for reference.
Fortune
QUOTE (Leofski @ Apr 23 2008, 09:25 PM) *
How do the reductions apply? I've always applied each separately leading to a very respectable 64.55% reduction in cost, rather than the 80% used at the top of this thread. On a quick flick through the books I can't a specific ruling, but without a specific clause that the reductions stack I'd treat them individually.


I can't give you the appropriate quote right now, but I know for a fact that the modifiers do indeed stack according to canon. I'm sure you can find a post from Synner discussing this very thing in the Augmentation Q&A thread, if not elsewhere as well.
Larme
I'm pretty sure there is a quote somewhere, otherwise we wouldn't know whether taking another 10% off of alphaware, for instance, meant 30% off vs. 10% off of 20% off. I seem to remember reading it somewhere.
Fortune
I seem to recall that under the rules for Cybersuites it specifically states that the modifier is cumulative with that of Cyberware Grades. I'm sure that isn't the only mention though.
CanRay
The Suites are cumulative with the grade. But the Suite has to be available in said grade in the first place.

Again, Delta Clinics aren't in every Mall people. They're not even on every continent!
Stahlseele
in chiba alone there are at least 3 delta-clinics, one COULD argue about that *g*
ArkonC
QUOTE (Leofski @ Apr 23 2008, 01:25 PM) *
How do the reductions apply? I've always applied each separately leading to a very respectable 64.55% reduction in cost, rather than the 80% used at the top of this thread. On a quick flick through the books I can't a specific ruling, but without a specific clause that the reductions stack I'd treat them individually.

I was told that the general consensus was to just add all the reductions together and then apply them...
Suits me just fine as it's much easier to apply that way...
Larme
I think in SR4, the "only a few delta clinics" thing has been changed. Now delta clinics are around, though not generally for private use--you have to get in with a corp or government who owns the facility. The "only a few" thing applies to cybermancy in Augmentation, which says there are only 12 cybermancy capable clinics (that is delta clinics that are also force 12 lodges and have the personnel and equipment to do cybermancy). I know in SR3, it said there were only like 12 total delta clinics, so obviously that number has increased by a lot, since there are now 12 ultra rare cybermancy clinics.
CanRay
Ah, OK. Must have mis-remembered.

...

I'm thinking I'm going to make it that rare in my campaign. Just because I'm a jerk. nyahnyah.gif
Larme
I absolutely hate how SR3 dealt with high level cyber. Not only did it cost more than the ware you were installing to get implant surgery, there was like a 90% chance that anyone without an unreasonably high biotech and karma pool would fail. Mages, in contrast, just had to basically dance around to gain power. SR4 fixed this by making all surgery tests into extended tests. They don't usually fail, it's just that the worse your surgeon, the more extended test rolls he makes, increasing the chance of a glitch. It's like surgery should be in the 2070s - it can go wrong, but it usually doesn't. And you no longer have to do a mega hyper super shadowrun to become best friends with the CEO of a big biotech corp to get delta clinic access. Honestly, I can't think of any reason to throw up barriers in front of deltaware. The price isn't already enough? Mages get to initiate for 0 money, whenever they want, however they want. I say let mundanes improve their cyber without turning it into a huge ordeal for no reason.
krakjen
Yes, Deltaware costs a lot of money whereas Initiation costs a lot of karma.
It's balanced that way....
Drogos
You still have to do a shadowrun to get access to a Delta Clinic, because really, what clinic would let a bunch of runners in???? biggrin.gif
CanRay
"Hello, and welcome to Le Chateau ShadowDelta Hotel, Spa and CyberClinic. Please check your firearms at the door. While we're tuning up your Street Samurai, please enjoy the spa treatments and other activities that are available. And, yes, the bar is over to the left."

Shadowrunners, they work hard, they party harder!
Larme
QUOTE (Drogos @ Apr 23 2008, 10:30 AM) *
You still have to do a shadowrun to get access to a Delta Clinic, because really, what clinic would let a bunch of runners in???? biggrin.gif


A black clinic? The kind where expert doctors who were drummed out of the profession for being unethical perform illegal operations to keep themselves living in doctorly style?

Augmentation talks about this, really. The fact is, with the right plams greased and the right people talked to, you can get illegal ware installed just about anywhere, from the state run municipal hospital to the high security corporate facility. It's not like you have to sell yourself just to get access to a hospital. Cyberclinics make their money by installing cyberware. As long as nobody is going to find out, what possible reason would they have for turning you down? It's risky to do illegal surgeries because, um, they're illegal, but if you pay extra then you can find people willing to take the risk just about anywhere.
Drogos
Well, my first comment was an attempt at humor, but let's look at this logically...

How is a black clinic going to have the facilities to produce delta grade cyberware? I'm sure there are some real Moreau's out there that could install the hardware and modify it for the client, but the manufacture of it seems out of the reach of anything I can conceptualize. And yes, examples from canon allow for the Corps to do their product testing on the streets sometimes so maybe that's where...but as a runner, I would have a hard time trusting this wiz new piece of gear to be 100% if it was a field test item. Better to steal the prototype yourself. But in a world with functioning nano technology, magic, etc I suppose anything's possible. biggrin.gif
Larme
How do doctors get top of the line surgical equipment? I dunno, maybe they buy it. To get it on the black market, the probably buy it from people who stole it.

Recognize that SR3's fluff on delta clinics was absolute bullshit. This is medical equipment we're talking about. It isn't made of rare or precious materials, so supply isn't limited by that. It's certainly made by highly specialized factories and such, but these are not secret operations where they have to keep the *gasp* secrets of high quality medicine out of the hands of the people. If you know anything about corporations, you know that they want money. Keeping ridiculously good medical gear to yourself is a horrible way to make money. There might be people, especially governments worried about criminals with high tech cyber, who want to prevent delta clinics from being too widely available. But governments don't rule the 6th World, the free market does. Though there is not going to be a surplus of delta grade equipment, the corps that make it really do want to sell it. If it ends up in the hands of black clinics, what the hell do they care? It's not their problem. In fact, it's probably good because it means that they'll be able to find higher quality shadowrunners in the future.

If delta clinics were rare in the 60's, it's because they were new and there was a very limited supply of facilities able to make delta grade equipment. But 10 years down the line, manufacturing has become more advanced and efficient, especially with nanoforging, and the medtech corps have simply had more time to develop their infrastructures. Delta clinics aren't going to be everywhere, but where there is a demand, the free market will move in to fill it with supply. Waving your hands and making scary noises and going "it's seeecreeeet, oooooo," isn't going to make me accept that top quality medical facilities are some kind of unattainable holy grail in the 2070's.
Stahlseele
move to chiba, odds are good that your house-doc works in one of those at least 3 delta clinics *g*
Drogos
But it makes little to no sense that these top medical facilities are on the streets either. Right now it is an ENORMOUS expense to open a hospital...hell, we'll go with clinic (an office for non-life threatening emergencies, such as stitches and maybe some out patient surgery). Medical equipment of just the basics for a clinic is EXTREMELY expensive. So if we look at medical equipment costs that do not include tools for MAJOR invasive surgery, were talking easily a few hundred thousand dollars. If you go shopping on any black market (now or 60 yrs from now) the cost of these same legal items are exorbitant. Why? Because the people forced to purchase these items on the black market aren't supposed to have them, so the criminals demand a higher price of the purchasers, because they can. So any street doc is looking at a base investment of a hundred thousand nuyen to have a full clinic, which is a shop for non-invasive surgery (if someone would be so kind as to list the price for a shop from the BBB, that'd likely be helpful). To do surgery, there's another shop. And that's just the closest approximation I can find in the RAW. Which, if anyone cares, makes just about no sense to me anyway you slice it. Mechanics' tools are, to a tool, less expensive than any doctor's piece of equipment. Same goes for gunsmithing, coding or construction: all of which are represented in the BBB with a shop (or kit). Using anything less is a heavy 'using inappropriate tools' modifier or cannot be attempted (per the BBB). If you get into surgery and implants, it is nearly impossible to effectively illustrate that with the RAW, simply because it does not come into play in terms of the scope of the game (and it'd be pretty fraggin cheesey for the Prime Runner to bite it on the Operating Table while getting a tune up). It's left to the GMs hands to wave or rule on it as he sees fit with some rules as guidelines. Why? Because surgery to install a new arm is neither heroic nor dramatic (not really anyways). It's just part of the fluff of the setting really.

BAH...tangents. Back to what I was saying, summararily. It's not saying "oooo, it's secret". It's looking at the expense and saying, "How is a guy without an open check book going to afford the initial investment?" Go to the Mob/Yaks/Vory/Triads? Then he's indebted to and probably under exclusive contract with them. Steal it? How many doctors you know who are master criminals too? And this jsut covers the basic surgery and cyber installation. Think deltaware and the cost tripples. How many people are going to be able afford that kind of cred in the 6th World and not be a megacorporate entity? And if they aren't, why would they open it? That's what came to my mind on the mention of black and shadow clinics. My street docs are lucky to get their ware off of the poor sod that died on the table earlier and then try to sell as mch of it as they can.
HentaiZonga
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Apr 23 2008, 11:09 AM) *
I second the boosted reflexes. What it looks like is they traded this for the ability to buy passes with Edge. Both 3 and 4 had Wired, Move by Wire, Synaptics, Adept Power and Magic. 4e has Edge passes, 3e had Boosted.

Though I have to admit i miss those boosteds. They were great for on the budget initative, even though they had rather crappy preformance overall, couldn't be removed and weren't compatible with some ware. They could stack with Synaptics though.)


Ah, yes. That was the fun time. +5D6 Initiative from Synaptic Accelerators and Boosted Reflexes. wink.gif
Stahlseele
yeah, that was for characters who wanted to grow/get faster in game . .
SprainOgre
QUOTE (CanRay @ Apr 22 2008, 10:14 PM) *
Adapsin: Augmentation: Page 90.

Brand. Spanking. New.

And untested. Bet it causes cancer.

Bet it causes super cancer... (That's where the tumors have little mouths and constantly insult and belittle you.)

Besides, it's the other fringe beni's of having a cyberzombie that you want, not just the ability to push beyond the metahuman max. The fact that they generate a background count for one...
Larme
QUOTE (Drogos @ Apr 23 2008, 02:37 PM) *
BAH...tangents. Back to what I was saying, summararily. It's not saying "oooo, it's secret". It's looking at the expense and saying, "How is a guy without an open check book going to afford the initial investment?" Go to the Mob/Yaks/Vory/Triads? Then he's indebted to and probably under exclusive contract with them. Steal it? How many doctors you know who are master criminals too? And this jsut covers the basic surgery and cyber installation. Think deltaware and the cost tripples. How many people are going to be able afford that kind of cred in the 6th World and not be a megacorporate entity? And if they aren't, why would they open it? That's what came to my mind on the mention of black and shadow clinics. My street docs are lucky to get their ware off of the poor sod that died on the table earlier and then try to sell as mch of it as they can.


You've just provided ways for black clinics to exist. You have shadow orgs, like the ones you've named, with the resources to procure the equipment and personnel. You can bet that at least some of them will open the doors to shadowrunners who can pay even if there's no family connection. And how many people are good enough to steal delta grade medical equipment? I can tell you that it's greater than 0, so there's at least some stolen delta tech out there. Why would someone with the cred to open a delta grade shadow clinic actually do that? Uh... I dunno, so they can use it to make even more cred? There is a huge booming underground market in Shadowrun, it's not like the shadows are a place just for chop shops and rusty scalpels. Criminals go from the lowest of the low all the way up to cinematic style supercriminals, and the latter has the motivation and the yen to make black deltaclinics very successful.

The idea behind all business ventures, legal or illegal, is to turn capital into profit. There are people out there who are not affiliated with a megacorp who have the resources to get delta grade equipment, and at least some of them are going to open shadow clinics so they can rake in lots of money. I don't even understand what your issue is. I think you've pointed out yourself that some people could get delta clinics and open shadow clinics. My sense of your argument is that you just don't want them to. The basis for this? I suspect that you are stuck in SR3. It's the 70's, delta clinics, though rare, are available to shadowrunners. Deal with it.
Mugzy
Hey there are other things that make a cyberzombie a much MUCH scarier foe than his 'ware alone.

Pack all the crap you stated into him along with the gene stuff, and you can go even further with your metal walking death man.

Astral Hazing and the (New for 4th Ed) Immunity to Normal Weapons..... Talk about a terminator. These may be seen as "drawbacks" but hey, they make the bastard harder to kill than someone without it.

If you absolutely, positively need something chased down and murdered with extreme prejudice, accept no substitutions...


... Especially no substitutions that decided not to take the plunge and go beyond the pale.
Drogos
Ultimately my issue is, when a street doc has enough cred to afford a black deltagrade clinic, they're more likely to retire with that cred. If you look at it, the market for deltaware cyber and bio is pretty much limited to Shadowrunners. And if you think about it, how many shadowrunners have the cred to afford deltaware? Maybe the top 10% in the shadowrunning world. And how many of those would use deltaware? Likely the sammy's and maybe the riggers/hackers, so we'll say 1/2 of that group. So for the investment of millions of nuyen you can now serve clientell numbered in the couple thousand across the globe. Oh, but you still can't manufacture your own ware, because you don't have the facility to do that, so I guess your stuck with whatever you can procure on the balck market and thus spending into your profit margin. Meanwhile, these same thousands of potential clients are being picked up as company men for one corp or another or dying off or retiring with their skins intact.


Well Larme, if I come and play in one of your games, I'll check out the Shadowpages and see if the black clinics will accept my credit. If you decide to be in one of mine, you'll likely not be getting deltaware equipment. All up to your game biggrin.gif
weblife
The doctor doing the cutting at the delta clinic is not the owner. The owner is rich and has retired, having his lackeys run the shops while he rolls in the dough and regularly shoots the lackeys that dip into the till.

New products are procured through copy-clinics providing several shadow clinics with high grade ware and bio. The copy-clinics use 'runners to steal the latest tech and trade between themselves to be able to syndicate all parts of the revenue generation products.

Products unpopular in the scene of 'runners and the filthy rich criminals are probably hard to get in these clinis, as the focus will be on high return items.

But to say its flat out impossible to match the economic structure required to run a delta clinic is plain wrong.

And if the demand is large enough from the delta clinics, production facilities will spring up, producing knock-off's of popular 'ware and bio, perhaps one or two pr. producer, but they supply a whole net of clinics.

And its Very likely that the syndicates Do have their fingers in the till somewhere in the shadow network of black docs. But that does not make their services exclusive or even necessarily less discreet and anonymous.
Fuchs
I'd assume mages and adepts would want delta-grade cyber too, to get more stuff into that 1 or 2 points of essence they sacrifice for cyber and bio.
HentaiZonga
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Apr 24 2008, 12:20 PM) *
I'd assume mages and adepts would want delta-grade cyber too, to get more stuff into that 1 or 2 points of essence they sacrifice for cyber and bio.


Definitely. wink.gif I always have an aesthetic design rule with my mages - no cyberware, and all bioware at Delta-grade.
Fortune
Maybe they owe some 'favors' to the Yakuza and are forced to run the clinic. Maybe they are Megacorporate sponsored 'under the table'. Maybe they run their clinic in order to continue their personal research, which is their life's work. There are endless possibilities that could be used to explain the existence of Delta Shadow Clinics.

But that is hardly necessary when a character could use Fake ID and a good Hacker to get a legitimate appointment at Ares or Evo's very best.

In my opinion, there are already enough hurdles in front of in-game character advancement for the ware-oriented runner without arbitrarily throwing up more.
Drogos
To each is own, but it's not arbitrary in my opinion. The possible reasons listed here feel much more arbitrary than saying, "It's top of the line, the best there is, how are you going to get it? Oh, you're just going to go talk to doc shimaki and he'll do it...um, no he won't. He can't even come close. So you're going to get your fake biometrics inserted into the corps databases and set yourself up for an appointment (aka a run), absolutely. Sounds great. What are you doing for legwork?" That was my original point all along. It would require the characters to spend some time and effort to ensure the access to the gear. Not everything in the book should come down to an availability test or it's really a waste of a good oppurtunity to roleplay.
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