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Tarantula
QUOTE (Larme @ Apr 29 2008, 06:46 AM) *
I don't think you can make a categorical ruling about the visibility table. Like if there was a swamp covered by dense trees that blocked the sun, you could have partial light and mist. And if someone dropped a flash pack in total darkness, you'd bet it would add the glare modifier -- now it's too dark to see AND you're especially susceptible to glare, so you're more blinded than before. Keep in mind that -6 for total darkness is not "totally blind." It's just a -6. If you have better than 6 perception dice, you will still be able to spot at least some things even in total darkness. You're not as blind as you could possibly get until you're at 0 perception dice. Now, obviously there are ones that wouldn't stack, like total darkness and partial light, or heavy smoke and light smoke. Those are kind of duh. But I think in some circumstances vision modifiers should stack, the GM just has to decide if it makes sense or not.

And I really don't get where you're coming from with "Tables generally mean only one is applicable at a time." There's a table right above the one you're referring (the ranged attack modifier table) where all the modifiers could stack at once. In fact, I'd argue that tables generally can stack all together. The range table is one of the few exceptions that provides mods that can never be added together.


So whats the penalty for closing your eyes then?

Sorry, I should have been more specific. Multi column/multi row tables generally only use one entry. Weapon ranges and visibility modifiers are examples.
Larme
I would call that "target hidden (blind fire)," or -6, not total darkness. Sorta seems like you shouldn't need to ask me, as it was right there about half a page up...

Regardless, you can't make a categorical rule on vision modifiers stacking or not. Sometimes it makes sense for them to stack, like when a strobe is flashing in your face AND it's pitch dark, you're going to have even worse vision than if it was just dark. Other times it doesn't. It has to be a judgment call, that's the only way to ensure that it makes sense.

And before you say "well characters faced with greater than -6 vision penalties would just close their eyes," I as the GM would put a stop to it. Vision modifiers are not IC information. It may well be that it's less penalty to close your eyes than to try and see in some situations, but characters do not know about dice pool modifiers. If someone tried that, I'd tell them they can't, because it's blatant, out of character metagaming. Incidentally, I'd tell that to Mr. Lucky too if he did unrealistic stuff to reduce his dice pool to 0. Characters don't know about dice pool modifiers, they don't know about edge, so they can't, ICly, behave as if they know the precise mechanics of the whole system.
Tarantula
So, if I have a sam who when he sees a very hard shot decides to trust his gut instead and closes his eyes, thats metagaming?
Nightwalker450
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Apr 29 2008, 10:56 AM) *
So, if I have a sam who when he sees a very hard shot decides to trust his gut instead and closes his eyes, thats metagaming?


Luke Skywalker - Meta Gamer...
Shiloh
Sometimes, closing your eyes to reduce visual distractions can help. I'd reckon that shooting a gun isn't one of those times, regardless of any Zen archery mumbo-jumbo... Though that'd be an Adept thing in SR, I guess, and mumbo-jumbo actually *helps* them...
Larme
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Apr 29 2008, 10:56 AM) *
So, if I have a sam who when he sees a very hard shot decides to trust his gut instead and closes his eyes, thats metagaming?


If you're doing it just to exploit the system, then yeah. Whether that's why you're doing it has to be determined on a case by case basis. I would submit, however, that "I'll just close my eyes" is not a common, or very realistic thing for a marksman to think when he's trying to shoot accurately. It should be irrelevant though, because if your sam does not have lowlight with eyelights to negate full darkness combined with ultrasound or radar to negate everything else, I would shred your character sheet as being too underpowered nyahnyah.gif
Aaron
Let's not forget that shooting blind is Firearms + Intuition.
cryptoknight
QUOTE (Raavek @ Apr 24 2008, 05:50 PM) *
I told everyone not to worry at all about resources. I will provide them (and they will be light at first) The reason I thought about doing it this way is because:



The problem with that is, some character types are VERY gear Heavy. the Street Samurai and Rigger are two character types that spend exorbitant amounts of cash on gear. Cyberware and Bioware are not cheap purchases. By limiting gear, you limit the players to being mages and adepts, who don't really need as much.
Tarantula
Don't think of it as closing your eyes, think of it as squinting too hard. rotfl.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Apr 29 2008, 11:28 PM) *
Tables generally mean only one is applicable at a time.


This is just another example of the type of absolute bullshit you have been spouting lately. ohplease.gif
Tarantula
QUOTE (Fortune @ Apr 29 2008, 01:20 PM) *
This is just another example of the type of absolute bullshit you have been spouting lately. ohplease.gif


Maybe I'm wrong. Looking at it again, I see no reason why a character couldn't suffer -6 (Blind fire) and be required to use intuition to shoot, as well as suffering the -6 full darkness penalty, for a total of -12 to his skill for shooting. I think I may have just been equating blind fire with total darkness without realizing it had its own entry separate from the visibility modifiers.
Triggerz
Welcome to Dumpshock and welcome to Shadowrun! It's a fantastic game with a passionate community.
QUOTE (Fortune @ Apr 29 2008, 03:20 PM) *
This is just another example of the type of absolute bullshit you have been spouting lately. ohplease.gif

Sometimes we argue a bit intensely, but overall it's pretty civil. nyahnyah.gif For rules questions, I suggest you open a thread here for your game and post your questions there. That way, you'll have tons of people jumping in to answer questions. And you'll most probably have answers to your questions quickly too. I just finished school and am now looking for work in real life, so I'll probably be at my computer working on resumes most of the time in the next couple of weeks, although I also have to move. Anyway, I'll send you my IM, so feel free to ask me questions on rules and such if you want. I'm certainly not the most knowledgeable rules monkey here, but I've been reading SR4 stuff a lot lately (and various discussions on Dumpshock too), so I now have a pretty good grasp of the basics and will know where to look up the rest.

I agree with everyone who's recommended the use of sample characters for the first few games. Same for sticking with the Big Black Book for the equipment of starting characters. It will provide enough stuff to be fun without making things needlessly complex. You can add stuff from the other books later.
Fortune
Shrug. I apologize for the vehemence of my post. It seems that I have let other threads influence my response in this one. smile.gif
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Aaron @ Apr 24 2008, 08:03 PM) *
Don't forget that you're almost never in ideal conditions in combat. My players are on the verge of assaulting a relatively intact house in Redmond. It's dark (it's the barrens at night) and drizzling (it's Seattle, duh). The current visibility modifiers are -8 for natural vision, -7 for low-light, -3 for thermographic, and -4 for ultrasound.


-8! My shooting dice pool is 6 dice. Yikes!

So what did I do? Did I argue what modifiers make sense and spend minutes pointing at ables and beating Aaron about the head?

No.

I turned on the car head lights on high and then fired my shot at the well lit illuminated silhouetted target. 13 DV -3 AP hurts.
Aaron
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Apr 30 2008, 01:03 PM) *
-8! My shooting dice pool is 6 dice. Yikes!
So what did I do? Did I argue what modifiers make sense and spend minutes pointing at ables and beating Aaron about the head?
No.
I turned on the car head lights on high and then fired my shot at the well lit illuminated silhouetted target. 13 DV -3 AP hurts.

It was pretty damn glorious, too.
Apathy
Because SR realistically shows characters as 'glass hammers', both you and the security guards you encounter have to make more realistic responses in combat. Nobody should be standing in the middle of the street while bullets ping all around them - one of their first actions would be to dive for cover (-4 or -6 to hit). Then maybe pop a thermal smoke grenade for better concealment (-6 to hit). Then he starts putting out suppression fire, which isn't likely to do too much damage but will keep your head down while his buddy tries to sneak around and flank you. Meanwhile, you're doing the same thing. Remember that there are negative modifiers to your attack while you're moving, while you're shooting from behind cover. For magic, you also have modifiers for background count much of the time while you're in the city. So after the first pass the street sam with 14 dice to hit only has 2 or 4 dice left, and the mage has 0 or 2 dice.

(Of course none of this matters if they get surprised and shot before they even get a chance to react, which makes ambushes especially deadly.)
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