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Raavek
And here I am trying to be a GM/DM/ST/whatever you call it in Shadowrun. I have played Vampire 2nd edition for a while, so I am pretty familiar with that style of playing.

My question entails combat. From the playtesting me and another guy did, it seemed like the damage was a bit way too uber. He used his character, and I used a couple templates from the book, street shaman and weapons specalist to be exact.

His mage basically destroyed the street shaman, force 2, in 2 hits, and the weapons specalist destoryed him in 1 shot.

Here is my question.

During combat, when actually firing a pistol/spell/whatever, does it go like this:

Roll to see hit -> roll to see dodge --> take weapon/spell damage and roll to see how much damage is negated

Or does it go like this

Roll to see hit -> roll to see dodge --> roll amount of weapon damage to see total damage -> roll body+armor+whatever to negate THAT damage.

I dunno if that is clear enough, so here is a scenario:

I shoot with a 8p weapon. I score 2 hits. (boosting it to 10p) he negates nothing with his dodge.

scenario 1: He rolls and negates 2 of that damage with body/armor, taking 8P damage (yeouch)

scenario 2: I roll 10 dices to calculate damage, I get 4 successes, he rolls against 4 successes with his body and armor, scores 2 hits, so he only takes 2P damage

With the way we *think* it works...they will be rolling a lot of characters...
Muspellsheimr
While dodging, the defender's hits reduces the attackers hits (not damage). If the attacker scores 0 net (more) hits over the defender, the defender avoids the attack completely. You can only dodge attacks you are aware of. Any you are not are a success test for the attacker instead of opposed, making sniping especially deadly.

If the attack hits (attacker scores at least one more hit than the defender), any net hits are added to the damage value, and the defender rolls Body+Armor. The damage is reduced by one per hit on the resistance test. The damage value is not a new dice pool, as it is in some World of Darkness games.

In the case of Direct combat spells, the defender rolls Willpower to 'dodge' the attack, and does not receive a damage resistance test. If they get hit, they take it all.

Tactical combat is very important in Shadowrun, as the damage can easily add up and kill quickly.
Zak
And don't forget to add in dice pool modifications. Looks quite complicated at the start, but once you are through a few combats it works fine.
Jaid
shadowrun combat has been described as being somewhat like a bunch of egshells running around with hammers. it's a design feature, not a flaw wink.gif

in short, the combat system is designed to make it so that you want to minimise combat if you want to survive... it is not designed so that the characters can go toe-to-toe with a tank and be just as tough. if you wish to not die in shadowrun, you need to either:

1) not get shot at, by not drawing attention

2) have a really good dodge pool, so you are very hard to hit. (using cover etc works to help this)

3) have an obscenely large amount of damage soak dice.
Stahlseele
be happy about playing SR4 . . if you haven't played SR3, 4 is the best way to get started and there is not that much ammount of damage around, at least in Close-Combat . .
in your example let's give the guy being shot at the knowledge of being shot at and let him have attribute and skill 4 for doge, so he gets 8 dice or so . . if he scores more hits than the attacker, the attack misses and he takes 0 damage if i understood that right . . if he gets one less hit than the attacker, the attack only gets +1 to damage and the target gets to roll body + armor to negate the new damage as far as he manages . .

granted there ARE builds that will deal huge ammounts of damage over short time . . and others that can soak it all and laugh about the pebbles being thrown at them . . but those are more or less the extreme cases . . well, aside from magic, that one is usually more or less the hardest to resist . .
sunnyside
Yup most players in SR are glass hammers.

Personally when I start a new group the first thing I do is have an NPC decker/hacker run a "simulation" where they get to fight each other. Usually this is a lot of fun, but it knock them out of the mindset they may have gotten from other RPGs that their characters are star trek ships with shields that can take a pounding instead of fleshy people who do not deal well with shotgun shells going through them.


Remember the game is called "shadowrun" not "stand 'n shoot"

A couple things to remember though that mitigate this that you might not have noticed in the rules yet.

-while runner type characters can get lots of successes, most grunts aren't rolling all that many dice
-smart players keep situations in their favor. There are lots of target modifiers and they can seriously hamper an attacker
- Full defense. If you players are wise and get dodge/gymnastics if a baddie gets the drop on them with a good weapon they can sacrifice their next action for a fair chance of not getting hit, at the least this should reduce successes
- Armor converts many sources of damage to stun. When baddies are fireing off on full auto they may do a a dozen boxes of damage, but the character will often just be knocked out. Personally if you think players need to learn about SR use machine pistols with fletchet ammo and folding stocks/gas vent 3's. It'll almost always be stun damage, but with long bursts it'll still knock their socks off.
-knockdown. At first this seems to be a bad thing for a wounded character. But when someone goes down people tend to shoot at the guy that's still standing and is about to shoot them. So instead of hitting someone for 8 damage and then hitting them again for 8, killing them, they'll hit them for 8 and the player will be thrown to the ground, and somebody else gets shot next. The wounded character can then crawl off.
-in the errata the lethality of ammo went down a little. check that out
-edge. It's great to have, and can add a bunch of dice when players really need to dodge an attack or soak some damage.


And finally, the thing that really prevents torn character sheets.

You can permaburn edge to stay alive. When the player walks into the snipers scope and all the dice come up "you're toast" you burn a point of edge permanently and something cinimatic happens (maybe the player trips as the sniper pulls the trigger).


Personally I think you'll come to enjoy the lethal gameplay. It keeps tension high, players acting smart, and means you can get through combats quick. Though for my tastes I rather like there being more damage overflow, but high body stats help here.
Raavek
Wow wow and wow. I didn't expect to get nearly that many replies back so soon, which kind of brings another question to mind... is Shadowrun that popular? Maybe just my location (Kansas City) is craptastic for any game that doesn't start with Dungeon or reside in a World of Darkness.

Personally I love the setting of Shadowrun, but I am a total scifi dweeb.

Anyways, back for some more questions...

I had this idea when I first told everyone that I was going to run a Shadowrun compaign, and I dunno, it might be a doubleedged sword, but let me know what you guys think.

********************************************************************************
************
I told everyone not to worry at all about resources. I will provide them (and they will be light at first) The reason I thought about doing it this way is because:

Everyone in the group are brand new to Shadowrun, but everyone also played Vampire, so we have tabletop experience.

I want to slowly bring everyone up to speed on how the game works (myself included)

I think that if they start with less resources (thus less gear i *think*, not sure) then they will have better stats, thus equally balancing it out. (maybe) I was going to provide them with starting gear and something for their *class* I guess you could call it (Like if someone is obviously building a Rigger, giving them a drone, a Decker/Hacker, maybe a datajack with upgraded OS, etc etc)

Bring everyone up to par. New players to the game, new runners to the life of a Shadowrunner basically.

Help me with balancing.

********************************************************************************
************

Although I do see an issue with this however. The person who wants to be a mage in the group is looking like he is going to start off more powerful than everyone else.

I dunno. thoughts, suggestions, ideas?
Larme
If everyone is really clueless, I'd just hand them copies of the sample characters from the main book and let them pick their favorite archetype. The samples are pretty good, but not very uber, and they definitely teach you what each archetype is all about. Once people play a little bit and get a feel for it, then will know what they want and they will be able to make their own characters, and you won't have to go monkeying with starting resources. Honestly, if you don't know what you're doing, I don't think you're likely to come up with limits on chargen that end up being fair and balanced. The real problem with limiting resources is that mages and adepts will become better, while mundane characters will get boned.

Though I must say, I'm impressed that people can play D&D and Vampire in Kansas without being picketed for committing the sin of sorcery wink.gif *hides*
Aaron
Don't forget that you're almost never in ideal conditions in combat. My players are on the verge of assaulting a relatively intact house in Redmond. It's dark (it's the barrens at night) and drizzling (it's Seattle, duh). The current visibility modifiers are -8 for natural vision, -7 for low-light, -3 for thermographic, and -4 for ultrasound.
Aaron
Oh, and see if this helps: http://pavao.org/shadowrun/cheatsheets/SR4Ranged.pdf.
the_dunner
QUOTE (Larme @ Apr 24 2008, 08:03 PM) *
If everyone is really clueless, I'd just hand them copies of the sample characters from the main book and let them pick their favorite archetype.


QFT!

Also consider just running them through the brief scenario, using the characters provided with the Quick Start Rules. You might have the players also download the Players version of the QSR. As it provides a basic run through of the rules. smile.gif
sunnyside
QUOTE (Raavek @ Apr 24 2008, 06:50 PM) *
Wow wow and wow. I didn't expect to get nearly that many replies back so soon, which kind of brings another question to mind... is Shadowrun that popular? Maybe just my location (Kansas City) is craptastic for any game that doesn't start with Dungeon or reside in a World of Darkness.


I'm not sure. But I suspect that it's the #3 pen and paper RPG franchise out there, or at least was back when I was more in the scene.

I don't know about just controlling resources though. Like people have said, that won't affect mages or adepts much, but would seriously gimp sammies and such. You could, of course, simply restrict them via low magic scores.

I will suggest you or your players do yourselves a favor and have all the hackers stuff at the same rating to make life easy.


Oh and if you're not sure about running the game there are a bunch of free adventures put out
http://shadowrun4.com/missions/downloads/

I run my own stuff, but I read through a few and they aren't bad.



vladski
QUOTE (Raavek @ Apr 24 2008, 07:50 PM) *
Wow wow and wow. I didn't expect to get nearly that many replies back so soon, which kind of brings another question to mind... is Shadowrun that popular? Maybe just my location (Kansas City) is craptastic for any game that doesn't start with Dungeon or reside in a World of Darkness.

Personally I love the setting of Shadowrun, but I am a total scifi dweeb.

Anyways, back for some more questions...

I had this idea when I first told everyone that I was going to run a Shadowrun compaign, and I dunno, it might be a doubleedged sword, but let me know what you guys think.

********************************************************************************
************
I told everyone not to worry at all about resources. I will provide them (and they will be light at first) The reason I thought about doing it this way is because:

Everyone in the group are brand new to Shadowrun, but everyone also played Vampire, so we have tabletop experience.

I want to slowly bring everyone up to speed on how the game works (myself included)

I think that if they start with less resources (thus less gear i *think*, not sure) then they will have better stats, thus equally balancing it out. (maybe) I was going to provide them with starting gear and something for their *class* I guess you could call it (Like if someone is obviously building a Rigger, giving them a drone, a Decker/Hacker, maybe a datajack with upgraded OS, etc etc)

Bring everyone up to par. New players to the game, new runners to the life of a Shadowrunner basically.

Help me with balancing.

********************************************************************************
************

Although I do see an issue with this however. The person who wants to be a mage in the group is looking like he is going to start off more powerful than everyone else.

I dunno. thoughts, suggestions, ideas?


Welcome to Shadowrun (and Dumpshock) Chummer!

Unless you really have a feel for the nuances of character building within SR4, doing what you are doing with Resources is a bad, bad idea.

Building a character in SR4 is really not htat hard. I'd recommend looking at the Sample Characters. Do a few mock combats with them against Grunts (not each other) as detailed on 272-276 of the BBB (Big Black Book=Core Rule Book). Also, if you have riggers or hackers, I'd recommend playing around with that as well. But lets jsut stay with Combat to begin with.

Once you have a feel for how combat goes against assorted foes, then your players will have a much better idea about how to build a character. Maybe improvements they'd like to make over the Samples. I guarrantee that most will definitely want ot make changes.

The thing is, for as much as we like to bicker on here about this not being balanced or that not being balanced, Shadowrun 4th Ed. is an incredibley balanced game all the way down to character design. Gear purchases are as intergral to building a Runner as selecting his stats and his skills. For many characters, the gear is as important, if not more important than the actual numbers comprising the character. If you allow characters to really beef up their stats because you don't have to worry about using points to buy stuff, then you will miss out on half the fun of Running. The characters will be too strong. You will have the equivilant of running the High-end 500 point optional build game characters. Unless you are an experienced GM of Shadowrun, they will be VERY hard to deal with and challenge.

My advice... run a complete mock session using hte Sample characters. Encourage players to take an archtype that they may be interested in playing. Run a simple mission involving a couple different kinds of combat: some melee, some ranged. To get hte players into it, announce that if htey survive the run, you will allow each character a special, one time only Edge point they get to add to their character that will burn out on use and not refresh.

Then, have them design characters. Now that they already have a feel for the mechanics by playing, they should be able to build playable characters with a little help and referring to the Samples for examples. I would also recommend sticking with only the BBB to build these start up characters. No gear or special things from any of the other books. There's plenty of time to get to most of that later.

And, remember, you are here to have fun. that is priority one! It's a new game system to you all. I would allow any person that was really disatisfied with their character after the first real run to "adjust" that character to the point of being a complete re-build if necessary. Playing a character that doesn;t turn out to be what you imagine him to be at creation is no fun at all. The official gaming group of Shadowrun, Shadowrun Missions, basically does this when you start an official character for tourney play. It's a very wise option in my book.

Welcome again to the Shadows, omae.

May your ammo always be dry, your drain always resisted and never, ever, deal with a dragon.

Unless, you know, he's got some really wiz ware and an offer too good to refuse. What, you wanna live forever?

Vlad
toturi
I agree. Run a mock combat first and go through the character creation first, then add in your own house rules if you wish. You and your group are the best judge of what is fun for you.
weblife
Welcome.

And I'd like to add that I think the SR community here at DumpShock is very good at being active and friendly. Bigger games are either completely inactive, or filled with spammers and trashtalking. - IMO.

I'm particularly impressed with the activity levels here.

And its not bad that some of the writers frequent these forums either. smile.gif
Synner
I'm going to say this because its the single most counter-intuitive element of SR4 Combat to people coming from other games (and from previous editions of Shadowrun): don't restrain yourself from piling on the cover, visibility, and movement modifiers listed in SR4—even if this means pushing the attacking characters' (PCs and NPCs) dicepool to 0.

Yes, I know it's counter-intuitive, but note that this doesn't mean the character cannot shoot, all it means is that at that particular moment, circumstances dictate that the character has no or next to no chance of hitting the target if he does shoot (without getting lucky, which is what Edge is for). If he doesn't want to waste rounds (and Edge), all he has to do is either hold his action (until situational modifiers change offering him/her a better chance to hit) or indulge in suppressive fire. Only high-noon duels on the mainstreet should be devoid of situational modifiers. Combat is a tactical exercise, not a hackfest in empty dungeon corridors.

Note all of the above is equally (if not more so) true for cover and visibility modifiers to Spellcasting in Combat. Those spellcasting dice pools of 13 look a lot different when you realize that even "good cover" takes -4 dice from that, partial light (such as on a street at night or a carpark) can knock another 2 dice off, the spellcaster keeping to cover decreases that by (another) -1 die, and other visibility modifiers like rain, fog, glare, and smoke grenades all potentially reduce the dice pools further.
Cantankerous
Welcome. Oh boy. I'm an old VtM affecianado too and while the two systems may look similar...they aren't. Did you ever play HtR? The Hunters were a closer simile. Even though they aren't as liable to remember that guns kill as in this game, they were glass hammers too.

When pulling out the templates, remember that they do tend to have resource capabilities that are pretty standard, so if you are going resource light, in this game the light resource PCs SHOULD get run over like frogs on a highway. Resources here can REALLY be king. Nice stats are all well and good...and if the PCs live long enough to get some resources, they'll be monsters later, but THAT is part of the balance mechanism and in Shadowrun you ALWAYS have to keep an eye to balance lest ye have a runaway power spiral or an under power spiral sneak up and bite you in the duff.

The system is FABULOUS once you get the Players used to the fact that this isn't D&D, and that they themselves aren't super natural creatures (or any more supernatural than any one else in the big time if they are shape changers or something smile.gif ) either and that technology is KING in the 2070s. For technology you need resources... so if you don't have them well resourced at the start, be sure to knock down the early levels of competition somewhat... or not, but then be ready when they loose a character, or two, per session.

One of the things I always loved most about this game was that a simple soldier with a decent amount of experience and very standard weapons is NOT what he is in other RPGs, canon fodder, but rather here IS one of the typical templates for a Runner's past.


Isshia
Drogos
Pretty much what everyone said is true. It cannot be stressed enough how important buying gear is to any character but especially starting characters where you have the options laid out in front of you. It's an integral part of building any character. I concur with using the archetypes presented on the full color pages of the main book as your first cast of characters. Use those for a couple sessions (I'd say 3 just so you can get used to how to run the game a bit). And every edition of Shadowrun is DEADLY, just like all of Vampire is Gothic. It is how the games were designed. If you found your group getting into numerous combat encounters in Vampire, you'll love SR because the system for combat is far more integrated than Vampire is. Good luck with it biggrin.gif

And before you run, read the whole book... then read the chapters titled Game Concepts, Creating a Shadowrunner, Skills, Combat, The Awakened World (if you have magic users or like magic), The Wireless World (if you have hackers/riggers or want to use the Matrix a bit), and Running the Shadows until you feel really comfortable with them. Creating a Shadowrunner can wait until you make characters withthe players if you decide to follow everyone's advice and use the templates for the first couple times. I agree allowing them to carry over some sort of reward for doing the first couple of sessions well or what not as well. If you do this, you will have no trouble with helping your players into the shadows, but it is not necessary if they are a patient group willing to learn along with you. Eventually, you'll want to read these sections over and over and over and over and over and over again...at least, that's what I did/do. biggrin.gif grinbig.gif (Bold for emphasis of importance)
Tarantula
QUOTE (Aaron @ Apr 24 2008, 06:03 PM) *
Don't forget that you're almost never in ideal conditions in combat. My players are on the verge of assaulting a relatively intact house in Redmond. It's dark (it's the barrens at night) and drizzling (it's Seattle, duh). The current visibility modifiers are -8 for natural vision, -7 for low-light, -3 for thermographic, and -4 for ultrasound.


What? How can you possibly get more modifiers than -6 for any viability modifier? -6 is full darkness.
Stahlseele
yeah, only highest modifier counts if i ain't wrong . .
Shiloh
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Apr 25 2008, 02:08 PM) *
yeah, only highest modifier counts if i ain't wrong . .

IIRC, that one's a "keeping it simple" rule to avoid the old wargamey "going through the list" "+1 charging, +1 opponent shieldless, -1 opponent uphill, -1 enemies to rear..." Ah, those were the days. It suggests, I believe, that you might take the highest mod and maybe add a fudge factor of 1 or 2 if things are really in the way.

As to whether you can get worse than "dark", it depends whether you mean dark like night or dark like a coalmine... A rainy night has much more difficult seeing conditions than just a cloudy one. Add smoke and you're effectively blind without augmentations. And, having been in a mine with the lights out, -6 ain't enough of a penalty... just moving about is difficult.
Tarantula
Being in a mine with no lights in -6. The modifier is called "Total Darkness". Its as good as shutting your eyes.
Fortune
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Apr 25 2008, 11:38 PM) *
Being in a mine with no lights in -6. The modifier is called "Total Darkness". Its as good as shutting your eyes.

And then cover and/or movement can modify that even further. I don't see the problem.
Shiloh
QUOTE (Fortune @ Apr 25 2008, 03:21 PM) *
And then cover and/or movement can modify that even further. I don't see the problem.

The problem Tarantula has identified is that the modifiers Aaron had were *vision* modifiers and "no vision" (i.e. perfect darkness) is -6. Making it rain in perfect darkness won't make it any harder for an unaugmented person to see, since they can't see anyway. So -8 is flawed somehow. I reckon Aaron is calling "a dark night" -6 and maybe it should be more like -5 or -4 in Tarantula's eyes.

Nevertheless, the point stands that vision and cover modifiers are an integral part of making the combat system a bit less glass-hammery.
Cantankerous
QUOTE
Nevertheless, the point stands that vision and cover modifiers are an integral part of making the combat system a bit less glass-hammery.


But only a little...and only while they are in place. If a Ganger pops a cap in your fizz while you're stuffing it with pasta with your mafia torpedo contact you can feel awfully fragile even if you're a nine foot tall six hundred pound troll Sammy who is usually mostly definitely hammery.


Isshia
Tarantula
Trolls are still fairly plastic-hammery unless specifically built to take damage. And then that rather considerably reduces their hammerness.
Shiloh
QUOTE (Cantankerous @ Apr 25 2008, 04:19 PM) *
But only a little...and only while they are in place. If a Ganger pops a cap in your fizz while you're stuffing it with pasta with your mafia torpedo contact you can feel awfully fragile even if you're a nine foot tall six hundred pound troll Sammy who is usually mostly definitely hammery.


Isshia


True but the mods for the low lighting in the trattoria and slight cover from the plants in the window boxes might make your hammer feel a bit less glassy (eyed).
Cantankerous
Did I mention that they were EX explosive rounds from a Ruger Super Warhawk and even with the called shot to the head (and thus no armor reduction to the power--3rd edition--) the guy pulled 5 successes on 5 dice.

*lol* I get to actually play instead of GM for once and I VERY nearly get a Quentin Tarantino moment three sessions in to the game. Luckily even at 12D with 13 dice in my soak I managed to get the 2 successes I needed to get it back down to JUST a serious wound.


Isshia
Raavek
Hmmm, reading over this I am probably going to go back on the whole resource thing. Which is a good thing, because none of my players have rolled characters yet.

So from what I have read hear, none of the templates are really powerful, as opposed to someone who has been playing and gaining gear for lets say 3 months? I looked at the templates pretty indepth, and I was seeing pistols with 8P damage and I thought to myself..."Damn, thats quite a bit..."

I think 2 things playing against me are A) im used to Vampire and B) I absolutely *love* Shadowrun on both the SNES and Sega systems, and they both start you off with pretty much nothing. There are obvious glaring differences between playing Sega or SNES vs playing pen and paper however lol.

So yeah, what I am going to do tonight (tonight is the night we start!) is before any of them roll (I know my playing group, and I know for a fact they won't use the templates) is make them use em for a fight or 2. I'll probably dig around the back of a book and get 4 or 5 thugs for them to fight (4 or 5 PCs playing) and give them an idea of exactly what goes on. It will probably be the longest fight we have ever done, I wouldn't doubt the fight lasting around 2 hours from just looking up rules and such lol.

Anyone got an instant messenger on here that I could add to my friends that is pretty well versed in the game? That would be completely awesome lol for those "well crap what exactly should we do here" moments. I know when we played vampire starting off (our first ever table top) we had a CRAPload of those moments.
Speed Wraith
QUOTE (Raavek @ Apr 24 2008, 07:50 PM) *
Wow wow and wow. I didn't expect to get nearly that many replies back so soon, which kind of brings another question to mind... is Shadowrun that popular? Maybe just my location (Kansas City) is craptastic for any game that doesn't start with Dungeon or reside in a World of Darkness.


I'm fond of saying, "Gaming is cyclical." I truly believe that. With WotC getting greedy and putting out 4e DnD a lot of folks are switching back to older games with history, such as Shadowrun. At least, that's my view based on chatting with folks around the intertubes and from my FLGS. NWoD came out at the right time to capitalize on what Wizards did in regards to fixing their system and managed to make up some lost ground with their revamped (hahaha, I'm such a dork) and generally better integrated system. Now it is time for SR to pull ahead. smile.gif My group played SR for a long damned time in the 90s, I remember clearly the day our then-DM showed us the paperback copy of the core rules he picked up and we all sat down and started making characters (I started with Speed Wraith, natch!) Anyway, yeah, you just got me all nostalgic, sorry nyahnyah.gif

I would also say that your location may have had something to do with things, I have a feeling that a lot more Europeans are into SR then you might think. But hey, aside from visiting my ex before she was my ex in KC (Kansas side, I'm sure in KC MO they play Projects and Pitbulls nyahnyah.gif), I'm not really familiar with your town so much wink.gif
Larme
There are no pistols with 8P damage. If there's something weird like that in the templates, check the regular rules first, because templates often have typos.

Also, you want to check out the errata on shadowrun4.com. It gives new rules for ammo types and corrects a number of mistakes in the main book. Ex Explosive and Flechette ammo are pretty much ungodly under the original rules as printed, but the errata changes them to +1DV, -1AP and +2DV, +5AP respectively.
Raavek
It might not have been a pistol. It was something that the Weapons Specalist had. In my original post, it was how she killed the mage my friend rolled. It *might* have been 6p, but I am almost certain it was 8p. I am not certain it was a pistol however nyahnyah.gif
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Cantankerous @ Apr 25 2008, 06:29 PM) *
Did I mention that they were EX explosive rounds from a Ruger Super Warhawk and even with the called shot to the head (and thus no armor reduction to the power--3rd edition--) the guy pulled 5 successes on 5 dice.

*lol* I get to actually play instead of GM for once and I VERY nearly get a Quentin Tarantino moment three sessions in to the game. Luckily even at 12D with 13 dice in my soak I managed to get the 2 successes I needed to get it back down to JUST a serious wound.


Isshia

in 3rd ed there was nothing to reduce armor with called shots . . either wound effect or another damage level, but if the troll had been wearing FFBA with 4/1 and one of thise 4/4 Overals he woul still have an armor of 6/5 for called shots to the head . . even if he had been wearing a heavy milspec armor without helmet, a called shot to the head would STILL get the whole ballistics rating to resist under 3rd Rules O.o
Cantankerous
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Apr 25 2008, 08:16 PM) *
in 3rd ed there was nothing to reduce armor with called shots . . either wound effect or another damage level, but if the troll had been wearing FFBA with 4/1 and one of thise 4/4 Overals he woul still have an armor of 6/5 for called shots to the head . . even if he had been wearing a heavy milspec armor without helmet, a called shot to the head would STILL get the whole ballistics rating to resist under 3rd Rules O.o


We never put armor on you where it didn't exist. That was kind of the idea behind head shots, or leg shots against those guys in their armored jackets. But hey, we were all former military of one branch or another and could only see such an idea as another type of AD&D silliness. That was one of the reasons we were playing Shadowrun, our great disdain for the whole Armor Class and Hit Point idiocy.

Player: "I shoot him in the foot."
GM: (after the rolls) the ballistic jacket reduces that to...
Player: Wait a sec! He has a jacket that protects his feet!?!

Sorry, not for us. We've been doing it that way for so long that I forgot that it was a house rule. We actually yoinked out the extra damage level, while ramping up some of the wound effects to compensate somewhat and for balance reasons.
sunnyside
stupid double posting forum see below
sunnyside
QUOTE (Raavek @ Apr 25 2008, 12:27 PM) *
It might not have been a pistol. It was something that the Weapons Specalist had. In my original post, it was how she killed the mage my friend rolled. It *might* have been 6p, but I am almost certain it was 8p. I am not certain it was a pistol however nyahnyah.gif


Well the weapons specialist starts with a one shot rocket launcher that has a fragmentation warhead that does 16p(f) damage. I think you would have remembered them firing that though. nyahnyah.gif

Likely they used the Walther which is 7p -3 ap Remember that's a large sniper rifle though!

But at any rate the pistols players will actually use in SR are more or less like sawed off shotguns and do a fine job of putting people down. Their problem being range and a lack of full auto.

EDIT: Oh and as for the video games. I don't remember how the SNES one went so much anymore. But I remember in the Sega version you spent the first who knows how long taking a packages from point A to point B for chump change and you occasionally get into a fight. Or to might it up you could go farm ghouls.

This doesn't make for a particularily exciting tabletop experience.

What SR is trying to do is skip that and go to a later point where you're smuggling people out of Fuchi or something.

I will admit that makes it harder on the new GM. You have to include more facets of the game at once, and have a more complex adventure. Again you might want to consider the free "missions" I linked earlier if you're worried.

Alternatively you might want to start them out as fish that are getting to big for their pond. I.e. maybe start them out with full gear and stuff but have them out in the barrens somewhere. Then neither of you have to worry about network security or lone star or any of that, and since the opponents shouldn't be as tough or have reinforcements the players should be less likely to get hosed.

After a couple session have someone bigger take notice.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Raavek @ Apr 25 2008, 01:27 PM) *
It might not have been a pistol. It was something that the Weapons Specalist had. In my original post, it was how she killed the mage my friend rolled. It *might* have been 6p, but I am almost certain it was 8p. I am not certain it was a pistol however nyahnyah.gif


Walther MA-2100 7P
Predator IV + Explosive bullets 6P
Fragmentation grenades 12P (f)
Aztechnology Striker with fragmentation rocket 16P (f)

In real life, if someone points a loaded .45 pistol at your center mass and pulls the trigger you're probably going to die.
If someone points a .30-06 rifle at your center mass and pulls the trigger then you are even more likely to die.

Shadowrun characters aren't vampires (except for the ones who are vampires and they've always been baddass (though regeneration has been nerfed in 4th edition)). If you shoot them they die.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Cantankerous @ Apr 25 2008, 08:31 PM) *
We never put armor on you where it didn't exist. That was kind of the idea behind head shots, or leg shots against those guys in their armored jackets. But hey, we were all former military of one branch or another and could only see such an idea as another type of AD&D silliness. That was one of the reasons we were playing Shadowrun, our great disdain for the whole Armor Class and Hit Point idiocy.

Player: "I shoot him in the foot."
GM: (after the rolls) the ballistic jacket reduces that to...
Player: Wait a sec! He has a jacket that protects his feet!?!

Sorry, not for us. We've been doing it that way for so long that I forgot that it was a house rule. We actually yoinked out the extra damage level, while ramping up some of the wound effects to compensate somewhat and for balance reasons.

to each his own i guess, but with shadowruns damage system there are no real hit locations and because of that no real armor for some parts so that is much more glass canon than anything else . .
vladski
QUOTE (Raavek @ Apr 25 2008, 01:07 PM) *
Hmmm, reading over this I am probably going to go back on the whole resource thing. Which is a good thing, because none of my players have rolled characters yet.

So from what I have read hear, none of the templates are really powerful, as opposed to someone who has been playing and gaining gear for lets say 3 months? I looked at the templates pretty indepth, and I was seeing pistols with 8P damage and I thought to myself..."Damn, thats quite a bit..."

I think 2 things playing against me are A) im used to Vampire and B) I absolutely *love* Shadowrun on both the SNES and Sega systems, and they both start you off with pretty much nothing. There are obvious glaring differences between playing Sega or SNES vs playing pen and paper however lol.

So yeah, what I am going to do tonight (tonight is the night we start!) is before any of them roll (I know my playing group, and I know for a fact they won't use the templates) is make them use em for a fight or 2. I'll probably dig around the back of a book and get 4 or 5 thugs for them to fight (4 or 5 PCs playing) and give them an idea of exactly what goes on. It will probably be the longest fight we have ever done, I wouldn't doubt the fight lasting around 2 hours from just looking up rules and such lol.

Anyone got an instant messenger on here that I could add to my friends that is pretty well versed in the game? That would be completely awesome lol for those "well crap what exactly should we do here" moments. I know when we played vampire starting off (our first ever table top) we had a CRAPload of those moments.


If you really want to go for that low-level gritty feel, you can reduce the Build Points from the standard 400 to something in the neighborhood of 350. (I personally feel that 300 would be frustrating to newbies.) Then the characters will have to make some choices: Do I wanna beef my stats and attributes or do I want some kick-hoop gear? Also you could reduce the Availibility cap for starting characters down from "no piece of gear purchased at character creation can have a rating higher than 6 or an Availability higher than 12." This will require some effort on your part as GM to decide the appropriate ratings and Availability limits by looking at gear you want to exclude in the beginning. And you will probably have to make some exceptions, possibly, for some very normal gear. It's a lot of work for you.

Personally, I would maybe lower the BP's to 350 and talk to my players about my vision of hte game and setting I am going for. Ask them to personally try to build characters with those kind of perimeters in mind. If they are taking a piece of gear you think to be too bad-ass for a starter punk, have them provide you with a real good background reason they have it. Really, talking to them and getting everyone on the same page is the best means of creating the game you want to run and hte game they want to play.

Anyway, I recommend going this route if you want a gritty game because it is "going by the book" and players will be learning the rules and not some home-brew. Not that there is anything wrong with home-brew! I dare say that nearly every GM here runs some house rules that modify the game in some important ways. But, for the most part, we all started playing hte system pretty much as written and made those decisions over time. Like anything, learn the rules before you learn to bend/break the rules.

Vlad
Raavek
Many good suggestions, thank you all, I really do appreciate it.

I think I am going to run an starter free mission tonight, and make them use the character templates. After that, I will talk to them about what i would like the story to accomplish and what they want out of the session.

I am going to run everything straight from the book, even though I look at initiative and I really want to just roll 1 dice at the beginning of combat and add it to the init score and walla. Give it a + mod if someone switches on reflexes or something.

I'll let you all know how the initial game goes.
cndblank
I had some good luck with a street level campaign and players who were new to SR4.

I told everyone it was a street level campaign and to keep the resources down to 50K to so. Left it at 400BP because I didn't want them to get frustrated.

Wired 1 for the Samuria (and the Adept had to take the same level of enhancement). Gives them something to look forward too.

Make your hacker a NPC so you don't slow the game down.

I might cut some slack to a rigger.

That way the players can get used to the system and get to enjoy entering the big leagues more.
WeaverMount
Also I know that for my very first couple runs my players and I took turns overlooking really obvious tactics and forgetting major elements. The story got kinda wonky because by players weren't up to running super slick 2070 criminals and I wasn't up to securing a 2070 >_<
Aaron
QUOTE (Shiloh @ Apr 25 2008, 08:31 AM) *
The problem Tarantula has identified is that the modifiers Aaron had were *vision* modifiers and "no vision" (i.e. perfect darkness) is -6. Making it rain in perfect darkness won't make it any harder for an unaugmented person to see, since they can't see anyway. So -8 is flawed somehow. I reckon Aaron is calling "a dark night" -6 and maybe it should be more like -5 or -4 in Tarantula's eyes.

Don't look at me, I'm going off of the hymnal.

Besides, I reckon rain can mess up all of the non-visual clues you use when taking shots in the dark. It's harder to pinpoint sounds, messes up scents, etc. Blind Man's Bluff is harder to win in the rain. Just because you can't see your target doesn't mean you're left with only blind luck.
Shiloh
QUOTE (Aaron @ Apr 28 2008, 05:50 PM) *
Don't look at me, I'm going off of the hymnal.


So's Tarantula, but without the book I can't form an opinion on which interpretation of "dark" I prefer...

QUOTE
Besides, I reckon rain can mess up all of the non-visual clues you use when taking shots in the dark. It's harder to pinpoint sounds, messes up scents, etc. Blind Man's Bluff is harder to win in the rain. Just because you can't see your target doesn't mean you're left with only blind luck.


I'd dispute that BMB is harder to win in the rain; it's easier to hear people's footfalls if the ground is wet... smile.gif But overall, I think total mine-level darkness is *worse* than a dark night in the rain for almost any activity. I've never fought in a mine, but I could barely bring myself to shuffle my feet when they turned the lights out, and I've snuck around in the woods on plenty of nasty, nasty nights.
Aaron
QUOTE (Shiloh @ Apr 29 2008, 05:08 AM) *
So's Tarantula, but without the book I can't form an opinion on which interpretation of "dark" I prefer...

Er ... by "off the book" I don't mean "off-book," but rather the literal interpretation of the hymnal. I also wonder whether it's a great idea to post for somebody else.
Shiloh
QUOTE (Aaron @ Apr 29 2008, 01:03 PM) *
Er ... by "off the book" I don't mean "off-book," but rather the literal interpretation of the hymnal.


Interpretation is not always 100% the same between readers. As I said, I haven't read the description in the book, so I can't guess at which of yours and Tarantula's interpretations of the book are nearest how I'd read it, and the intentions of the designers. From what's on here though, I'd tend to agree that -6 is *not* the worst vision modifier possible.

QUOTE
I also wonder whether it's a great idea to post for somebody else.


[shrug] If Tarantula objects to my interpretation of what he's written, I'll gladly let him put me right. But I have to interpret his writings to be able to assign them meaning.
Stahlseele
in SR3 total darkness was +6 target number and blindness was +8 if i remember correctly . .
Tarantula
This is why I interpret it how I do.

The visibility modifiers are listed as a table. (SR4, 140). Tables generally mean only one is applicable at a time. A similar example is the weapon range table (SR4, 139). If you're throwing a knife at medium range (To Strx2) that doesn't mean you also are throwing it at long range (To Strx3). If your strength is 6, and they are 10 meters away, they are both medium range (under 12) and long range (under 18). Its fairly obvious only one can apply, and as such, you would apply the one that most closely matches (in this case medium).

With the visibility table, you go to the column of what vision type they're using at the time, then down to the row of the most applicable modifier. If they were using thermographic vision in full darkness with thermal smoke present. You'd use thermal smoke, and they'd get a -6 (vs -3 for full darkness). Same situation, but someone with normal vision, you'd use Full Darkness, and they get -6 (vs -4 for thermal smoke). Again, same situation, ultrasound vision, you'd still use full darkness, and they'd be at -3 (vs -2 for thermal smoke).
Larme
I don't think you can make a categorical ruling about the visibility table. Like if there was a swamp covered by dense trees that blocked the sun, you could have partial light and mist. And if someone dropped a flash pack in total darkness, you'd bet it would add the glare modifier -- now it's too dark to see AND you're especially susceptible to glare, so you're more blinded than before. Keep in mind that -6 for total darkness is not "totally blind." It's just a -6. If you have better than 6 perception dice, you will still be able to spot at least some things even in total darkness. You're not as blind as you could possibly get until you're at 0 perception dice. Now, obviously there are ones that wouldn't stack, like total darkness and partial light, or heavy smoke and light smoke. Those are kind of duh. But I think in some circumstances vision modifiers should stack, the GM just has to decide if it makes sense or not.

And I really don't get where you're coming from with "Tables generally mean only one is applicable at a time." There's a table right above the one you're referring (the ranged attack modifier table) where all the modifiers could stack at once. In fact, I'd argue that tables generally can stack all together. The range table is one of the few exceptions that provides mods that can never be added together.
Shiloh
Yeah, Heavy particulate obscuration (smoke or mist) makes it harder to operate in the dark, certainly.
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