Ah, me have to say those that think most sniper rifles are of larger caliber then a sport rifle are mistaken. The common sniper rifle cartridge is the standard 7.62mm NATO, most sniper rifles I have seen in use by the US military are chambered for 7.62mm NATOs. The 7.62mm NATO has good stopping power and good range, but the primary reason why we use that round, because we have a lot of it and need to use it. I do know we used to used the M14 which was a fully automatic rifle chambered for the 7.62mm NATO up until the beginning of the Vietnam war. The M14 had a lot recoil which made it not to accurate when fire in full auto mode, that was one primary reason besides pressure for arms manufactures(Colt), we moved to the 5.56mm NATO for front line rifles.

If you want damage codes for the common calibers Shadowrun and Firearms Damage By Caliber, and select Ammunition By Caliber. They are separated by firearm class.

[Edit]Finally... Notepad Is Your Friend.[/Edit]

Wow, I didn't see your dilly-o up there, I'm a big fan of the page down button, must have flown by. Well, less work for me is always a good thing. I'll check out yours and probably modify it a little (just so I can call it mine a little more than before), but for now, Halo calls.

I'm going to use a hit location system, Mike's or something? I don't know, it's floating around somewhere, if you need it I'll email it to you.

*looks at yours s'more*

That's really good. I need to pay more attention, but those three BPs from oblivious were so inviting.

That must have been it.

Did I miss your hit location system too? Or have you not posted it?

I'd like to compare notes.

I'll email you the hitloc pdf if you give me your email, PM it to me or email industriallegion@hotmail.com if you don't want it floating around here.

Didn't post it, since no one seemed very interested in that aspect. I sent it to you on a PM, along with my email.

Neat-o. This might discourage John Woo bloodbaths if executed properly.

Oh, it does. It certainly does...

Update:

Hold-outs, Light Pistols, Machine Pistols, and Heavy Pistols have calibers assigned. Master cartridge table assembled and online (v1, by AE at http://www.geocities.com/industriallegion/...aliberlist.html - AE: Didn't ask, if you want it down, it'll be gone). I'll do SMGs + Rifles tomorrow, don't feel like being awake anymore. Happy huntin'!

PS: Hit Location thing @ http://www.mtbahnet.com/files/sr/hitloc.pdf

Oh I don't mind it being there. However, to make it more informative, a few hyperlinks might be in order.

The 5.6mm Flechette had a link to this page, had to take it out when I put it inside the CODE tags.
The 11.6x45mm had a link to this page, or something similar.
The 12G Win/Olin had a link to this page.

Also, so that people who don't know much about calibers and cartridges can follow the table, linking each RL caliber to Raygun's site for that caliber might be a good idea. Although it might also be a bit confusing, since they have different Damage Codes there... I dunno.

And the 11mm Caseless isn't UMP specific -- in fact, the platform on which it most commonly comes up in my games is the H&K USP3 Tactical, and a few other such pistols.

OK, weekend off = no posts from me. Back in the saddle again.

I use a hitlocation system. It is more complex than not doing so and surprisingly my players absolutely LOVE it. I'm nto sure where it came from but I actually have multiple condition monitors - six actually, plus a stun monitor - which was a real bitch until I came up with wiz new record sheets. Now it's pretty much second nature. It doesn't really add any play slowdown but it makes healing a lot more work. It also makes people get horribly oppressed very quickly and not die. If you're not into that, it's a bad system. But it lets me be very nasty in terms of opposition, and people can end up losing limbs rather than just dying. If I was starting over I might come up with a new system using a single monitor, but at this point I'm just sticking with it.

Yes, the armor ratings are totally different to fit with this.

I spy new calibers...

9x21 IMI: AFAIK, it fires the same bullets as 9x19 at the same velocities, so the values for it should probably be the same as 9x19 (currently on your table it has 1 point worse penetration when subsonic).

7.62x25 Tokarev: According to Raygun, the round can be velocity controlled. Maybe 5M/+2, or 5L/+2 if you don't mind making it slightly less powerful when suppressed. 6L is a bit too powerful, 4M too powerless -- dropping the Power of any round to 4 or below basically makes trolls invulnerable to it... Although, a subsonic 7.62mm pistol round probably wouldn't be too powerful IRL either.

And about buckshot in my games: -4 Power/Range Category beyond Short (with the numbers you've got there now, that'd be 10D/6D/4S/2M at S/M/L/E, as they appear in my games a 12G is 11D/7D/5S/3M), base TNs are 4/4/5/6. On the other hand, full length shotguns generally have ranges like 20/40/80/120. And none of that Choke madness.

Alright, weapons assigned calibers. This was a multi-person bang-up job, with a few numbers being modified to fit the gun and such. The Steyr-AUG-CSL has also become the most hated weapon on the planet, and in a fit of rage, randomly assigned a caliber, and so it stands.

I'll change the caliber listing around a little tomorrow, but this and English presentations have killed any motivation I have tonight.

http://www.geocities.com/industriallegion/name.html <- SR weapons w/ Calibers + Penetration (soon to include Raygun weapons if Adam follows through (not DSF Adam))

http://www.geocities.com/industriallegion/caliber.html <- Calibers, in case you missed it before. Ever expanding, as I spy new and better ways to work the phrase "COR-BON" into every document I create.

"so, steve... you COR-BON that chick last night, or what?"

You know, Raygun has a list on his site that would've saved you a lot of trouble.

A few more things about the calibers:
.25ACP should be Always VC (since with common loadings the muzzle velocity is well subsonic). You could of course make up a new caliber of about the same dimensions, to be used in western hold-out pistols. E.g. 6.5x16 Ares, 6L/+2 (5L/+2 when VC).

The .30 Mauser would, IMHO, be extinct by the 2060s. At least it wouldn't appear on any new weapons. The RL Steyr TMP is 9x19, which is the most likely caliber for a 2060s TMP as well (if you assume 9x19 still to be the mainstay of medium pistol calibers).

I can't see any reason in the actual performance data of the .45 Win Mag compared to the other large pistol calibers (.440 COR-BON, .454 Casull, etc) that would make it the best penetrating handgun caliber. I would suggest that you drop the .45WinMag to 11M/+4. Same goes for the .475 Wildey Magnum, better drop it to 9S/+2. Additionally, if .440 COR-BON, .475Wildey and .500S&W do 9S, then wouldn't it make sense that all have a +2 Recoil mod?

I've always wondered about how the 7.62x53R is 10S on Raygun's site. I haven't seen many figures about how the round performs, but the (very) little I have seen would suggest that performs insignificantly better than the 7.62x51. Which is why, unless Raygun does have some other figures somewhere, I'll keep the 7.62x53R as having the same stats as the 7.62x51 in my games.

If you wish to make the Power scale in the rifle calibers greater, you'll have to adjust the numbers a lot. If indeed you wish to keep the 7.62x53R as 10S/-3, then the .300WinMag would certainly have to be at least 11S/-3, .338 at least 13S/-2 (or 13S/-3) and the .375H&H would then be better off in the Deadlies, maybe 10D as Raygun has put it.

Overall, Raygun has a very different approach to the large rifle calibers than me. Since the +/- Penetration system allows for greater variation in that aspect, I never felt the need to make the Power differences between the calibers that large. Also, since each of my weapons has its own Range scale (although these are generally the same between common designs, like just about all full length ARs or all MP5-sized 9x19 SMGs, etc), I can play around with the Ranges to make some of the larger calibers better than the smaller ones. And I think Deadly damage from hunting rifles is a bit overkill, because with the Powers involved, even the worst hit in the torso area of just about any unarmored human (or even lightly armored human) will automatically drop him.

So, either switch to a more Raygun-esque Damage Code scale with the rifles on the whole, or drop 7.62x53R to 9S. Also, you might want to drop the +1 Recoil on the 7.62x53R, because any of the calibers below it on the list (.300Win and anything after it) has a heck of a lot more recoil.

Also, it might be good to keep in mind that the 14.5x114 Soviet sees more use in HMGs today than it does in AMRs.

Now I've got to go and plow some snow, but when I get back I'll go over the guns and calibers that you assigned...

AE: You keep making sense, I'll keep plugging the numbers in. Seems like a team!

Right, back to business.

The hold-outs look good. I dunno how long the case of a .22 Win Mag is, it might be a bit hard to fit into a very small pistol -- assuming Morrissey Elan is a pistol. And it may well be that it's not significantly longer than that of a .22LR, so it's not really an issue.

Beretta 101T and 200ST: Unless you consider them hold-outs, I strongly urge you to change them to at least 9x19. You won't easily find a Beretta in such a weak caliber -- only the sub-compacts come in calibers like that, and some of the compacts offer that option, but none of the medium or full frame pistols come in anything weaker than a 9x19 (excluding the practice kits in .22LR).

Ceska vz/120: I believe this gun is modeled after the CZ-pistols, and apart from the practice guns and one compact gun, they all come in at least 9x19. None is chambered in 9x18 Makarov. Of course, if you consider the Ceska vz/120 to be something very different, like a crappy, compact pistol meant only for gangers to shoot walls with (like most soviet-design pistols are IRL..), then making it 9x18 Makarov is quite OK.

The Hammerli is, AFAIK, a competition/target pistol, and a Swiss one at that. I find it extremely unlikely that they'd chamber their guns in an old Soviet military caliber. If you wish to keep it a small caliber gun (which is apparently what Hammerli mostly makes), make it .22Win Mag or .22LR. If you want to make it a larger caliber gun, make it 9x23 Winchester or 9x19. Something like that.

I have no idea what country the Seco gun is supposed to come from, or what kind of gun it's supposed to be, so 9x21 IMI is as good for it as any other.

I doubt Ares would chamber their machine pistols in such a weak caliber as the .32ACP. .380ACP seems more likely, if not 9x19 (all machine pistols of western design that I'm aware of are chambered in 9x19: Beretta M93R, Glock 18, VP70M). The Steyr TMP I already dealt with in the above msg.

Caseless ammunition demands huge changes to the internal workings of a pistol, so if you want to consider the Browning Something-Power series to be a same kind of closely related family as it's made out to be in canon, I suggest you put .45ACP for the Max-Power.

I see you seriously up-tuned the Cavalier Deputy. That's totally fine, there needs to be huge-caliber made-up guns in the SR world.

The FN 5-7C probably shouldn't be Velocity Controlled (as far as I know, the RL FN Five-seveN isn't meant to be suppressed, though it's probably possible), although dropping the Damage Code by some measure to account for the very short barrel might be in order. 7L/-? 7L/+1? Something like that.

Beretta Mod 70: All Beretta SMGs, from the WW2 1938A to the current production Model 12S, are chambered in 9x19. I don't see this trend breaking, at least not in the favor of a round as sucky as the 7.62x25 Tokarev.

The Colt Cobras: 9x19 or perhaps even something more powerful, like 10x25 or 11mmC. These are supposed to be used by the UCAS military and SpecOps around the world, .32ACP is way underpowered for that kind of use.

Ingram is a good ole US firm, so they're likely to make their guns in 9x19 instead of 9x21.

Sandler TMP: Well, since it isn't really the Steyr TMP, I guess you can chamber it in any old weird-shit round you want to, but I am still of the opinion that the .30 Mauser wouldn't be used in any non-antique weapon in the 2060s.

Teeheehee @ Steyr AUG/CSL! I can see why it might have caused problems. Don't worry, the 5.6mm F ammo should be extremely expensive, hard to get and easy to identify as mil-tech, so it's not that overkill.

The Remington 990 is supposed to be a common hunting and "general purpose" shotgun, so 12G would make more sense. The rest of the shotguns are good, and I don't really know enough about shotguns to say anything more about them.

The H&K G38 is supposed to be a rather average assault rifle, so 5.56x45 or 5.5C might be better than the 7.62x51. Of course, if you wish to make it more of a battle rifle (not meant to be fired fully automatic/burst = doubled recoil, perhaps better ranges, perhaps heavier), 7.62x51 is great.

The .375H&H is not that common a round, and even then it's (AFAIK) almost exclusively a hunting round. For a large caliber sniper rifle, .338 Lapua might be better. 7.62x51 and .300 Win Mag might be better for Remington 750/950, so that there are some mid-caliber hunting/sporting rifles, and not only long-range and large-caliber rifles.

The Walther MA-2100 in CC is made out to be a rather average military sniper rifle, and that combined with the fact that the RL Walther WA-2000 was originally chambered for .300WinMag, and later 7.62x51 and 7.5x51, leads me to think that .300WinMag is probably the best caliber for the WA-2100. .50BMG is not really a sniper rifle round, but an anti-material rifle round, and as such not exactly best suited for an army's main sniper rifle (which is what the MA-2100 is supposed to be for the CAS).

The assault rifles are fine.

T-5h 58min. W00t!

Read through, followed most if not all modifications. Adam, in a fit of insomnia, punched in more than half of Raygun's stock, so as soon as we can figure out how to get his laptop to talk to the rest of the world that'll go up too.

If you haven't figured it out already, I'm not too smart when it comes to guns + calibers, and assigned the cartridges more for balance than real life. The stark realization that my players are too dumb to min-max changed that outlook real quick.

Take a look see, and tell me if anything is still glaringly wrong.

Thanks for all your help!

Right, /me is back. No spoilers today, sorry.

Oookay, going through 'em all in order again... The Berettas: Why VC? Do you wish to consider the weapons to have built-in suppressors? If not, you might wish to get rid of that.

[Edit]It seems perhaps you have the VC thingie a bit confused? Or maybe I'm interpreting it wrong. Because basically any weapon which is chambered in a caliber that is VC-capable can fire velocity-controlled rounds (and thus, if they accept a sound suppressor, they can be fully suppressed). The (VC) added behind the caliber-marking of some guns makes it look like these guns always fire velocity-controlled rounds -- which is, generally speaking, only achieved by guns with internal suppressors, like for example the MP5SDs.

An internal suppressor of that type (one which bleeds out propellant gases so that the bullet is not accelerated as much as normal) is generally not fitted onto a pistol (because it's so darn bulky, I guess), and would almost completely defeat the purpose of just about any rifle. So, the (VC) tag would perhaps suit guns that fire bullets that would without a sound suppressor have a muzzle velocity of 1-1.5x the speed of sound that have a large internal suppressor. The HK-227S (which you've put in as 9x19) comes first to mind.[/Edit]

Something I missed on the first glance through: If the SCK Model 100 is meant to be a SMG, 5.8x42 is a bit heavy -- that would in fact make it a carbine AR. Not that there's anything wrong with that, I'm just unsure which way you wish it to be. If you want it to be a SMG, dropping it to 9x19 might be better. (And don't worry about there being loads of guns in 9x19, and not much of anything else... That's what's happened IRL, too. )

And it seems the .30 Mauser for the Sandler TMP persists. Which is fine, just keep in mind that it will only be used by eccentrics and old nazi-wannabes.

As for min-maxing, if the calibers themselves seem a little off-balance, remember that you've still got the guns to play with. If SMGs seem bad choices compared to ARs, make them smaller and lighter and give them better Recoil Compensation. If the large-caliber rifles seem too good compared to ARs, make them bulky, limit the choices in their rates of fire (Modes) and enforce a doubled recoil in auto-fire (or even overall doubled recoil).

Basically, get inspiration from Raygun's guns. Fortunately, if you make the different kinds of guns work like they do IRL, that will automagically balance the caliber differences. Gotta love the symmetry of it.

I know a bunch of people hated the old Staging number of 1st edition, but I was wondering what if that was modified? What if staging up was always two sucesses and staging down was by weapon type. Pistols and SMG's take 2, Rifle's take 3 successes. Feedback about how that works?

Maybe I like Nazi-wannabes. Actually a character in my current game is hunted by Nazi's. Really poorly done Euro-trash nazis. It's all good.

Will edit tomorrow, as always.

During class tomorrow I'm going to finish up some guns I've been cooking on my own, nothing like custom gear to throw it all out of whack.

As for the SCK, yeah, I guess it'll be toned down, didn't know it was gripclipped. My books have what may or may not be a firearm of the appropriate type somewhere near the flavor text...wonderful little thing that Cannon Companion.

Both Chinese pistols fire an inherently subsonic cartridge (7.65x17mm rimless). The P9SSD and the Stechkin APB are both velocity controlled. They use inherently supersonic cartridges (9x19mm and 9x18mm, respectively) and the design of their barrel/suppressors slow the bullet to subsonic velocity, much in the same way that the MP5SD does. In fact, the P9SSD's suppressor is a modified version of Walter Wolff's MP5SD suppressor.

Now that I didn't know. I got the impression that at least the cartridge for the Type 64 was supersonic, because this booklet says this about the Type 67: "Note also that not only does this weapon not fire the 7.65mm ACP cartridge, it is not intended to fire the same 7.65mm rimless round used with the Model 64 but needs a special low-powered 7.62mm round known as the Type 64." But I'll certainly rather believe you than draw conclusions from such a text on my own.

As far as I'm aware, both the Type 64 and Type 67 do fire the same cartridge, called the 7.65x17mm Type 64 because it was designed specifically for the Type 64 pistol. It is dimensionally identical to the .32 ACP (7.65mm Browning) except that it has a rimless rather than semi-rimmed case (to make automatic loading more reliable).

The Type 64/67 most likely fires a 70 grain bullet at 755-820 fps (according to the article linked below), putting it at 88-104 fpe, though apparently there is information to suggest that there is a load up to 1017 fps, for 160 fpe. Military Small Arms of the 20th Century lists muzzle velocity at 594-672 fps for 54-70 fpe. In any case, except for the hotter load, this is really weak performance, which would make the pistols strictly "against-the-skin" types.

Here's a article from Small Arms Review on the Type 67.

Figures. You'd think Jane's would get their facts straight. I guess I shouldn't trust a 6€ book.

http://www.geocities.com/industriallegion/remake.html

Not done, but more information.

Will soon feature your stuff Raygun, converted to AE's system. If you don't mind, of course.

About the 5.6mm Flechette rounds: The last 6 hours were a non-stop test of their performance, when my group (one 5.6F AR, one 5.5C LMG, one 5.5C AR, plus a mage) faced off with 35 secguards with heavy plated vests (11/7) and light limb armor (3/1).

And let me tell you right away, while 9L/-7 might sound like overkill, the L Damage Level is quite an equalizer. One of the secguards took 6 hits from the 5.6F AR (6 Light wounds) and one hit from the 5.5C AR (1 Medium), and managed to crawl away to fire at the team behind the next corner.

The PC with the 5.6F AR swore he'd get himself a large caliber semi-auto for the next time they get into urban CQB against heavily armored opponents...

The .500S&W Magnum loaded with APDS, wielded by the B3Q4S2 female sorceror shaman, proved to be quite effective however.

My characters are currently going out of their respective ways to find cover whenever anyone with a rifle even shows up. I was doing a few test runs with some average security guards vs. a printup of one of player's characters, and large caliber assault rifles won a disturbing number of times. The dice just seem to like headshots when I roll them.

Alas, it sure beats the "stand in the middle of the room dual-pistols blazing" style they had prior.

Update: Was going to convert some of RG's stuff. Decided to play, in order, Halo, America's Army, and Chalk Outlines.

Maybe tomorrow.

I was going to start converting Raygun's guns as well, and as I was starting out I begun to think about many things that your system deals with that mine doesn't and things you do differently.

The first thing that really hit me is that I still don't enforced any kind of drop in the Damage Code for carbines vs ARs, or other such instances of one gun having a much shorter barrel and thus lower muzzle velocity. My main excuse is that the combination of shorter ranges and dropping Power with range does give them a slight disadvantage, but it's extremely slight indeed.

On the other hand, the other advantages of carbines aren't really taken into consideration by the system either. Apart from the shorter ranges, the only differences are in concealability and weight, which do not affect handling in the game. So I'll probably continue using only ranges as the disadvantage of the carbines, or otherwise they probably wouldn't be used as much as they should.

The other cases of significantly differing barrel lengths are a bit more tricky, though. For example, hold-outs vs large frame pistols vs SMGs. The hold-outs suck enough already for me to leave them alone, but giving SMGs with long barrels (8"+) +1 Power would be a nice game balance tool in addition to possibly making sense.

Currently SMGs are rarely used because they've really got nothing going for them -- range and penetration are far inferior to ARs, Damage Codes are mostly equal, and recoil is only slightly lower (the Recoil modifier can't really be lower than 1, and giving them loads of Recoil Comp won't work). With +1 to Power, a 10mm Auto SMG might be a worthwhile gun against unarmored opponents.

Also, I might be shifting the standard of all pistol ammunition into FMJ instead of the weird catch-all SP. However, I won't just apply the FMJ modifier to all the pistol calibers; I'll probably give many of them a slight up-tune in Power at the same time. Thus 9x19 FMJ will become 7M/- instead of 6M/- (in line with Raygun's numbers). This will probably result in most of my pistol Damage Codes and Penetration figures looking even more like Raygun's.

I might even go as far as automtically using the +P/+P+ modifier on the calibers where Raygun has marked it as available, using the (admittedly debatable) logic that body armor and metahumanity would push defensive/combat handgun manufacturing in the direction of more power at the cost of comfort/recoil.