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CanRay
Yeah, but, as you say, that's been around since SR1. Didn't feel it needed to be stated. nyahnyah.gif
Stahlseele
yeah, another problem about the life-span of elves and dwarves: if you get to the point where a character could actually be that frigging old . . (mind you, 100 Years is probably 5 generations in the Shadows, maybe more) the character building rules will still have them with attributes and skills capped at some level, no matter how high they would have gotten their skills over the years . . but that is discussion stuff for SR5D20 i guess *g*
nathanross
QUOTE (MYST1C @ Apr 27 2008, 02:53 PM) *
Yet there are descriptions of "really old-looking" dwarves and elves in stories set just in the 2060s or even 2050s! Geriatric-looking orks or trolls I can accept (I'm of the "orks and trolls age faster than humans"-school) but not elves and dwarves.

The only time I can remember an "old looking elf" was in Year of the Comet. He introduced Ghostwalker to his speaker (some ork who's name I dont remember). I just have to write it off as IE or something like that.

QUOTE (Method @ Apr 27 2008, 06:03 PM) *
Also, I've always thought the shorter life span of trolls and orcs had a certain "social injustice" quality to it. Poverty, manual labor, crappy health care, shitty diet, violence, etc... all major contributers to shorter life span in certain minority populations even today in RL.

That is definitely a part Ork/Troll lifespan issues. However, their natural lifespan is already very short. Orks, and I think Trolls as well, reproduce in litters. Sometimes as many as 8 at a time. Elves on the other hand have a much longer pregnancy and dont reproduce close to as much (if fluff is to be trusted).

I personally go for the 400year non-IE elf, as 400years is a very good length of time, and immortality is overrated. I do agree that perhaps they should have waited for the Elf nations till most elves were 25-30, and not 18. I think the rapid population influx was also from parents of Elves who wanted their elven kids to grow up someplace that was safe for them. I also think that originally there was an influx of all metahumans, because it was supposed to be a land of promise for metas.
Stahlseele
Kessler or however he was called, with his maybe free ghost called MErlin in south-brittain somewhere or in wales i think . .
he was one old looking elf in a novel . .
CircuitBoyBlue
The fact that the Tirs were set up by people in their late teens and early twenties makes sense to me, if you at least buy that there were spike babies. Tir Tairngire, especially, seems like the classic revolution gone wrong, which makes perfect sense when you're talking about young people. Revolution talk tends to get less common among people who have already sold their souls to cubicle farms. Unfortunately, it's those soul-sellers that know how to run a country without freaking out and putting people against a wall. The only "grown-ups" the Tir revolutionaries had to guide them were dudes with an agenda, like Ehran the Scribe; surprise, surprise, you end up with a state that keeps getting compared most frequently to North Korea (real life North Korea, I'm not actually sure where NK stands in SR). If Tir Tairngire were a place that had ever actually functioned properly without bloodshed, then yes--I would call BS on the fact that almost everyone in it was too young to have the red tape experience that goes into running a country*

*yes, I'm going to stand by the claim that bureaucratic nonsense can sometimes have a beneficial effect for society (I don't hate my job this morning, apparently).
Method
What's the saying....

"If you haven't turned rebel by twenty you've got no heart.
If you haven't turned establishment by thirty you've got no brains."


CanRay
QUOTE (Hatspur @ Apr 27 2008, 01:14 PM) *
These were not genetically, philosophically, or physically weak people. Nobody would be at this time in history if you were still alive.

Speaking of, here's the start of my latest story which I tried to show just that.

He's not an elf, just a really mean 74-year old Human.
Stahlseele
and he still has skills below 7? *g*
sorry, i could not help myself ^^
CanRay
No, seeing as this is Bug City, he'd be fighting under the old rules. nyahnyah.gif
Method
Skills and attributes don't increase just because you get older. A dude who works as an accountant for 30 years doesn't retire with a 6 in pistols. He has to train.

So maybe a 50 year-old elf runner was really lazy for 30 years of his career and didn't push himself. Maybe he did the same job for 30 years and didn't feel the need to advance his career. Maybe he was a grocery store owner until 5 years ago and turned runner when his store got fire bombed. Maybe he spent his youth (all 35 years of it) tooling around europe getting drunk and going to rock concerts and has decided its time to settle into a career.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that a proper background story can explain why an elf is 40+ AND not an uber elite killing machine. On the other hand, a 30 year veteran runner is a pretty good back story for some of the min-maxed super PCs you see around here.
Stahlseele
yeah, but your exemplary accountant would probably end up with an accounting skill of 11, because you don't do your job for long without learning one or two things more than you were tought . .
CircuitBoyBlue
Unless the GM's a dick, every day the accountant will get 1 karma just for showing up.
CanRay
"Sure, you get 1 Karma a day... But it sucks up 0.01 Essence. 0.025 if you work at a Call Centre." vegm.gif
Hatspur
QUOTE (CanRay @ Apr 28 2008, 08:50 AM) *
Speaking of, here's the start of my latest story which I tried to show just that.

He's not an elf, just a really mean 74-year old Human.


You write in the canon 2nd edition Shadowrun style very well. Right down to the bumbling inexperienced main character. I suggest you read Burning Bright by Tom Dowd, assuming of course you can locate one of the few copies remaining. It details the actual mission to nuke bug city and the events leading up to it. I did like the Cockrork, very frightening nice touch.

RE-RAILMENT: The debate that has been raging on over various census figures from various countries around the world is limited by its own measuring stick: SINs. All of the old Shadows of (North America, Asia, Europe) books from 3rd edition have a clear percentage which is at best an educated estimate or at worst a guess. Not to mention the brave hackers who compiled those online files are not necessarily unbiased and I wouldn't put it past them to modify a few of the files to fit their world view. Actually, I believe the majority of books published from Fanpro and Fasa between the in game years of 2030-2060 were all in the realm of wikipedia when it came to credibility and reliability (from an in game academic standpoint). ShadowSEA and Shadowlands can claim to have a great deal of credibility, but even they have warnings everywhere about the fragility and unreliability of information. That is why the founders of those data havens created those nodes, to educate people and give you a rough idea about a topic.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Apr 28 2008, 12:15 PM) *
yeah, but your exemplary accountant would probably end up with an accounting skill of 11, because you don't do your job for long without learning one or two things more than you were tought . .

Eh, I don't think that's really reflected in reality. People tend not to improve beyond what they're required to. Most accountants stop getting better at math by the time they're out of college, or very shortly thereafter. Yes, they use math constantly, but they have all they need and never need to get better.
People who do things for long periods of time tend not to continue to improve unless they're constantly being challenged. More often than not people stagnate.
Unless the accountant in your example is working for an incredibly rich businessman and/or criminal who demands the best and constantly asks for the near-impossible, they're going to hit their skill of 3, maybe take it up to a 4 early in their career, and just sit there because they can do their job perfectly well.

If Joe Average the accountant lived an extra 200 years he may pick up an extra trick or two, sure, and lots of experience, but actually increasing his skill? Not unless he has to.
Stahlseele
accounting ain't only math, it's MAINLY math . . then there's the associated laws and strictures and the such and loopholes and nooks and crinnys to make your life easier
CanRay
But the point is made... You get better by challenging yourself. If there's no challange in the job, there's no growth.

At one job, I was, literally, able to do it half-asleep. That's the point where you cannot learn any further in the skill, you're just drifting on what you already know, with no way to move forward until a new challange comes along.

If you keep exercising with the same weights, the same exercises, the same reps, and keep at just that, you won't grow stronger. You won't get any weaker, either, but you won't get stronger.
darthmord
QUOTE (CanRay @ Apr 27 2008, 06:22 AM) *
Because all an "Elf" is, is a tall, scrawny person with pointy ears.

Frag, my RL Grandfather fits that description.

Come to think of it, my family does have a tendency towards a long life expectancy, save for accidents...


As does mine... then again, from the front my face resembles that of an elf from fantasy literature (especially if I were to lose about 20 pounds) and my ears are quite pointy (though the tops are in fact rounded when viewed from the side). Two of my daughters have inherited the same. My youngest daughter's ears actually lean outward at the top.
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