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masterofm
O.k. so I was thinking about how most everyone has an average stat of 2 and maybe 1 or 2 stats at three, so I decided to create an average wage slave in the SR setting (this one works in computers.)

John Q everyman is around a 150-160 bp character (using SR4 rules) I figured by adding what I would expect a normal person to know or have around their skill settings.

John Q. Everyman - Data entry

Metatype : Human
Mundane

Attributes
Body: 2
Agility: 2
Reaction: 2
Strength: 2
Charisma: 2
Intuition: 2
Logic: 3
Willpower: 2

Edge: 2
Initiative: 4
Essence: 6

Qualities: SINner - (name your game)

Low Lifestyle

Knowledge Skills
English : N
Matrix Games : 2
Sports : 2
Area Knowledge : 3
Sci-Fi Sims : 1
Urban Brawl Schedule : 1
Club Circuit : 2
Bars : 2
Liqour : 1
Wines : 1

Active Skills
Pilot Ground Craft : 2
Etiquette : 1
Data Search: 2
Computer : 3
Software : 3
Electronics : 1

He has about 700-1,200 nuyen.gif worth of clothes

Honda Spirit (Subcompact)

Stuff -
Commlinks
Commlink : Sony Emperor
OS : Renraku Ichi
Browse (Rating 2)
Edit (Rating 2)
Scan (Rating 2)
AR Gloves
Trodes
Printer
Satellite Link - (in his home)
Miracle Shooter
Virtual Person
Virtual Surround Music
VR Game
Wall Space
Glasses
Certified Credstick (Silver)
Survival kit (for the knife and some extra food if need be)
Medkit (r1 or r2)
4x Medkit supplies

Contacts
Social contact #1 (L:4 C:1)
Social contact #2 (L:3 C:1)
Social contact #3 (L:1 C:1)
Social work contact # 1 (L:2 C:1)
Social work contact #2 (L:1 C:1)


I'm sure there are a few more things he could have (like one or two more contacts,) but this is probably what most wage slaves probably possess. Does someone want to roll up another John Q. Everyman in a different professional job I think that would be great. Maybe some other SR versions would be nice as well just to help people out.
sunnyside
Just a quick comment. Some skills at rating 0 are considered to be the "common" level of knowledge. So you can change your oil on a mechanics skill of 0. You just might take langer and critically botch all over your nice shirt.

ElFenrir
Basically, I think you're totally onto it. John Q. Everyman would have a 3 in the stat that he most often uses. Dockworker or mechanic? Strength 3. Librarian? 3 logic. Professional typist? 3 agility. Media joe schmoe? 3 Charisma.

Give him a native language, any knowledge skills(i say a few toward his job, some interests or whatnot), and basically what you did. A mechanic might even have Clubs 1(hey, he might be handy at threatening some shady guy trying to steal something with a wrench.) Automotive Mechanic 3, a point or so in Etiquette, maybe a couple points in Industrial Mechanic, maybe a few Joe Everymen might have a 1 or so in Data Search(it's used pretty often.)

Given some time i could go ahead and stat them out. I think i'll come back with a couple for fun, too. smile.gif
MarCazm
I would change Strength, Agility or Body to 1. If the Wageslave Computer Nerd doesn't workout that much and just puts his freetime in AR Entertainment.
stevebugge
Depending on the job and skill level skills and attributes could range from 2-4, maybe a few 5's in skills for specialists. Some people are above and some below average. Still if you have time to stat out every employee in every Stuffer Shack, you have much more prep time than I do.
ElFenrir
QUOTE (MarCazm @ Apr 28 2008, 05:46 PM) *
I would change Strength, Agility or Body to 1. If the Wageslave Computer Nerd doesn't workout that much and just puts his freetime in AR Entertainment.



I'd say a 2 is more appropriate, honestly. TO me, a 2 is dead average, unexceptional, what the masses have if they don't really bother with it-but aren't unhealthy. Not good, not bad, just...there. a 1 is the lowest stat you could have; to me, a 1 means you are pretty down low. I've known plenty of office people, just everyday, normal office people-and most of them aren't THAT flimsy or weak. They're just...well, average.

I know this sort of leaves it so there really no longer *is* a below average score; it was one of the drawbacks to an already fairly grainy scale, that kicked things down another notch. in the older SRs, where 3 was the 'John Q. Everyman' stat, with a 4 being his ''job stat'', the 2 was the 'underdeveloped' stat-that might have been about accurate for the computer guy- and the 1 was the 'you're damn weak' stat.

Now, with 2 being the 'everyman' stat, 3 being the 'not too uncommon but still a little more developed', that still leaves 1 as 'the lowest you can go''-and usually, well, the way we play it, 1's are sort of reserved, for, well, weak stats. Again, this sort of takes away the 'underdeveloped' stat, but I don't think that the room full of computer programmers is full of weaklings who can't carry more than 5 kg without a test(im rather weak myself, with mild early-onset arthritis and even I can lift more than that) or who catch a cold by looking at it.
masterofm
I feel like most "specialists" took the 2 bp of "specialization." I doubt they roll 5 dice for everything, but if you get the comlink repair specialist then he probably has a 3 in electronics w/ a specialization in comlinks. I'm sorry but if Shadowrunners get 2 skills @ 5 I'm sorry I just don't see how an average civilian could sport that kind of mad ski11z.

Also keep in mind a SWAT member is not John Q. Everyman wage slave. They have a few select stats and skills of 4 w/ a possible specialization in one or two fields (like infiltration 3 - specialization urban.) 5, and 6's are for high end people, not some street sweeper or bartender.

I'm would still give my character stats of 2 across the board as even though he only has an average str of 2 and body of 2 he would because a secretary, the person who scans your groceries at the local stuffer shack would have a body and str of 2.

*edit* changed automotive mechanic from 1 to 0 and added an electronics skill of 1. *edit*
Siege
I'm a big fan of the quirky sorts - the wageslave who practices MMA on the weekends or is a competitive bodybuilder.

The National Guardsman is another fun one. grinbig.gif

-Siege
sunnyside
Actually per page 62 a 3 is average for a stat. Though wageslaves may be a little below average.

Also for the "regular" type contacts listed, like bartender and blogger, their numbers a more in line with that (you see 4's but lots of 2's )

I do think some 1's should be floating around, but probably more on an indavidual basis.
ElFenrir
Oh, 1's exist, sure-just like some everymen might just have a 4 or so.

And that chart in the SR4 BBB has been discredited a bunch of times on the forums. There were actually a bunch of good threads on it in the past. Since SR4 brought the numbers down from SR3, that chart, copy and pasted from SR3, no longer works anymore. (It's basically been said 3 back then is the new 2, 4 then is the new 3, a 5 then would have been a 4...and so on. They had a 'conversion equation' thing in converting SR3 to 4, and the stats are always lower.)
stevebugge
I'd agree that in most cases 1 rates attributes should be rare, it's a noticeably underdeveloped attribute that's obvious either by observation (physical) or a short encounter (mental/social). Skills are a different issue, there are a huge number of skills that most citizens will have 0's or 1's in.
Fortune
QUOTE (sunnyside @ Apr 29 2008, 08:22 AM) *
Actually per page 62 a 3 is average for a stat.


Which is silly! That puts Joe Pedestrian with 160 BP worth of Attributes, barring Edge.

I'm more comfortable with 2.5 as an average, with a mix of 2s and 3s.
masterofm
Well you see the average citizen according to some people have about 300-320 bp. I mean it makes perfect sense, because 400 bp shadowrunners are only slightly better then Joe Nobody. I mean run a setting where every single wage slave has like 4 or 5's in heavy weapons with a specialization in rocket launchers... oh and they all sport rocket launchers (w/ ap rockets.) Also they would have a 4 reaction, 4 agility, 4 int, and wired r2. So that means when you try to bust into a car and some civilian sees you your entire team is killed instantly. I mean it totally fits the setting *sarcasm off*
Synner667
QUOTE (masterofm @ Apr 29 2008, 01:06 AM) *
Well you see the average citizen according to some people have about 300-320 bp. I mean it makes perfect sense, because 400 bp shadowrunners are only slightly better then Joe Nobody. I mean run a setting where every single wage slave has like 4 or 5's in heavy weapons with a specialization in rocket launchers... oh and they all sport rocket launchers (w/ ap rockets.) Also they would have a 4 reaction, 4 agility, 4 int, and wired r2. So that means when you try to bust into a car and some civilian sees you your entire team is killed instantly. I mean it totally fits the setting *sarcasm off*


Sarcasm aside, it kinda highlights one of the flaws in SR v4.0...
..If the average attribute is in the 2-3 range [which it should be, if 6 is the best you can get], 'Runners are seriously overpowered at generation time.

On the other hand, if the average is in the 4-5 range, a maxximum of 6 is rubbish.


Having 'Runners as better than the average is good, but when the average 'Runner seems to be near the maxximum at generation time, i don't think things are right.
sunnyside
I can see the desire to put the average at 2. But it seems like NPCs tend to have it higher than that.

What I'm saying is they may have cut and pasted the chart, but they seem to be sticking with it. That's just the impression I got from going through the NPCs in the book and I think missions as well. The only NPCs they have with lower stats are in the grunt section and then it's only the gangers (who have low mental stats which makes sense) and the humanis goons who are apperantly supposed to be inbred and not too put together in the head.

Your average corper sec guard is 3's already. (and LS are higher!).


Note that this doesn't make John Q Everyman on par with a runner! First of all they're still half the BP or less of a runner. Try playing against some 800BP characters.

But more importantly a guy on the street doesn't have the weapons skills, augments, mojo etc runners do. Which really sets them above. And in the current SR system being ahead in the dice pools is big!





CanRay
What's the average guy on the street packing? MAYBE a Colt L36 or some other light pistol, maybe armoured clothing, MAYBE.

What's your average Shadowrunner packing? At MINIMUM a Ares Predator IV or some other heavy pistol, and definetly some kind of good armour.

Yes, it's a dangerous world and everyone that can be armed, probably is armed and armoured, but they're not usually packing the expensive and heavy artillery, but just enough to scare off the streetpunks that come flashing blades and cheap Streetline Specials.

It's like the locks on your house or car. They keep out amatures and keep other people honest, but a professional can, and will, get in. And that's exactly what Shadowrunners are. Professionals.
Daier Mune
you forgot Positive Quality: Blandness
Cthulhudreams
why would joe average on the street only have a light pistol? You can seriously own assault rifles that are illegal in most of the OECD today in SR4 no questions asked. Obviously 'gun culture' has seriously taken off.
sunnyside
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Apr 29 2008, 12:23 AM) *
why would joe average on the street only have a light pistol? You can seriously own assault rifles that are illegal in most of the OECD today in SR4 no questions asked. Obviously 'gun culture' has seriously taken off.


Because even in SR you can't just walk through the mall with a kitted out assault cannon on your back.

Runners carry the heaviest thing thing they can because they need performance over comfort and the granularity of the system means the only downside of carrying the ridiculously huge Preditor heavy pistol is a modifier of 2 on concealability tests. There is no difference for kick or anything like that.

But for the more reality minded average Joe it better to have a smaller pistol you carry than a big one you don't. I mean today we have Desert Eagle .50s that people could carry. But in fact we see a whole lot of short 9mm pistols being carried.

However I really don't buy Lone Star carrying a L36. They're the Star, with their puffy jackets and sometimes ridiculous helmets. Personally I took one look at that and automatically upgraded them to Ruger Thunderbolts.



Critias
While I think you're pretty spot on (to the original poster), I wouldn't feel amiss giving John Q Average a datajack. It's continually described to us as the single most common (and useful, outside of the Shadows) piece of cyberware in the setting -- I could see it being included in a lot of hiring packages, especially for someone like a software engineer.
Synner667
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Apr 29 2008, 05:23 AM) *
why would joe average on the street only have a light pistol? You can seriously own assault rifles that are illegal in most of the OECD today in SR4 no questions asked. Obviously 'gun culture' has seriously taken off.

As with the current realworld, I think that's an Americanism...
..Although all parts of the world have people carrying guns, it's only Americans that insists that carrying guns is almost compulsory.

No society is going to allow or encourage people to all carry guns - that's wishful thinking, and continued by gun companies [as far as I know, everytime there's any talk of repealing the old gun carrying legislation/constitution, it's people like the Gun Associations and the gun manufacturers who argue it's a "right" to bear arms...
...That's all about the money, nothing about the constitution.

'Runners wouldn't be allowed to openly carry guns in 'polite' society, any more than they can now...
...And, in fact, with guncrime and random shootings as they are, there might be an argument for a gun amnesty/gun buy back.

'Runners are a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of the population...
...And what they do, how they behave isn't really representative of the population as a whole,
Critias
You have no idea what you're talking about. I'm sorry the nuts have been cut right off your once-proud empire, and you live in a society so neutered that the latest batch of laws are targeting fake guns of all things (and blaming THEM for crime, continuing the trend of not blaming criminals), but please stop talking about American gun ownership like you know what's going on over here. "As far as you know" is not very far.
Grinder
He's right about the part that people of other states don't carry guns with them, though. To a european it feels odd to just read about how many guns some people in the US own and that many US citizens actually carry a gun when they leave the house.
masterofm
Um... well not everyone in America owns a gun... in fact most people don't own one, but since we have an amendment that allows people to own firearms people think guns just grow on trees here for some reason. I don't know of a single person who actually walks around with a gun out in the open... well besides the cops. Most people who own guns don't go waving it around, and most of the people that I know do not own or carry firearms. Anyways.... yeah a datajack would probably be a good idea. Also if John Q. Everyman had a gun he would not bring it to work, as the corporations would probably shoot him or her.
Critias
Roughly one household in three (according to the most recent stats I can find) owns a firearm. That's a big chunk of the population, yes, but that's household. It might mean ultra-conservative dad owns a single .38 special that he never practices with and forgets he even owns while his wife and five kids hate guns, or it might mean 30 year old gamer kid has an SKS, an AK, a Glock, and a .22 bolt action and his wife plinks with a .22 revolver (making for two gun-owning Americans, but only one that owns anything practical for self defense). Or it might mean, y'know, that family from Tremors or whatever that old Kevin Bacon flick was, where two people own a hundred guns apiece. Not every American is a gun nut, not every American should be a gun nut, and even the most rabid pro-right-to-self-defense of us aren't walking around forcing people (at gunpoint, of course) to go out and buy guns.

But, roughly one household in three owns a firearm.

Of that one household in three, quite a few less have a concealed carry permit (several states don't even allow them). Of those that have concealed carry permit, quite a few less actually do carry with any regularity. Of those that carry with any regularity, quite a few less always have a gun on them, because there's plenty of places we're not allowed to go with them in many states (schools, churches, some malls, places that serve liquor, government buildings like post offices, etc, etc).

We are not, by and large, a bunch of zany cowboys running around playing shoot 'em up. The streets do not run red with blood due to Castle Doctrine laws and concealed carry permit holders. What gun violence everyone in the world is bombarded with by the media comes, primarily, in two flavors: inner city bullshit where stupid people ignore laws to do stupid things to one another (often with drugs somewhere in the equation), or the occasional rabid maniac sociopath who decides to take a gun into a soft target (a school, a church, a mall) where they know no one else is armed, and decides to immortalize themselves and become famous around the world by taking out his teeny-angst frustrations on everyone around him instead of just killing himself.

When you look at the number of guns in the country, the number of people in the country, and the number of times such crimes are commited, it happens with startling irregularity. For every instance of random gun violence you hear about, there are also all manner of other randomly horrible things that happen to people like plane crashes, car crashes, lightning strikes, heart attacks due to winning the big lottery, or being mauled by a bear or something.

While they come up very often here on Dumpshock -- given the subject matter of our average conversation, it's no surprise -- guns really don't in any way, shape, or form, "dominate" American culture. They don't grow on trees, you don't get them for free with video games, you don't get one for free with a driver's license, and, in fact, two thirds of American households don't own a single one. I guess maybe we're a pretty boring place except for our gun violence and our offensive President, because it seems more and more that that's all anyone cares about when it comes to us as a country. Sorry we're not more amusing.

It's worth pointing out, for instance, it wasn't even an American that brought them up for the first time in this very thread (which isn't me picking on you, CanRay, but rather me just pointing out it wasn't one of us rooting-tooting gunslinging Americans kicking in a door and shouting 'YEEHAW, blam blam blam blam, but what about guns?!" or something).
Synner667
QUOTE (Critias @ Apr 29 2008, 07:53 AM) *
You have no idea what you're talking about. I'm sorry the nuts have been cut right off your once-proud empire, and you live in a society so neutered that the latest batch of laws are targeting fake guns of all things (and blaming THEM for crime, continuing the trend of not blaming criminals), but please stop talking about American gun ownership like you know what's going on over here. "As far as you know" is not very far.

Kindly regrow your testicles [as you so eloquently put it] and actually debate where I'm wrong, else you are making yourself look a buffoon...
...Thank you.

I'm off to work, so I'll leave this Wikipedia entry as a quick run down on guns and America..
...Guns and America

DataJacks are nice'n'cheap...
...But what about things like a firewall ?? Implant cost ??

It used to be that either people got them as part of their job, or they saved and then it was something unusual - th sign of being a Rigger or Hacker.
With computers as powerful as they are, probably most deskbound jobs automated, SkinLinks and AR, would DataJacks still be the connector of choice ??
krakjen
QUOTE (sunnyside @ Apr 29 2008, 08:19 AM) *
However I really don't buy Lone Star carrying a L36. They're the Star, with their puffy jackets and sometimes ridiculous helmets. Personally I took one look at that and automatically upgraded them to Ruger Thunderbolts.


Agreed. That's even supposed to be their service weapon.
Critias
QUOTE (Synner667 @ Apr 29 2008, 02:38 AM) *
Kindly regrow your testicles [as you so eloquently put it] and actually debate where I'm wrong, else you are making yourself look a buffoon...
...Thank you.

I've done so often enough in other threads -- wholly unconcerned about what kind of "buffoon" some of you might think me -- that I'm really just tired of repeating myself about all of it, by this point. The sticking point in your particular post, though, was where you insisted no one but firearm companies and the nameless, faceless, "gun lobby" ever argue for keeping the 2nd Amendment on the books.

Dumpshock is hardly the place for an in-depth debate on the 2A and what is means -- and what it should mean -- to American citizens, but suffice it to say I think you are both incorrect and ignorant.

That you are ignorant is not your fault (because I somehow doubt that the British education system goes very in-depth into what the Second Amendment is for, because I know first-hand what shoddy coverage it gets here, and I doubt your schools would be terribly impartial about it), that you are ignorant but still spout your incorrect ideas is, and is what I take offense to.

The "gun lobby" that everyone likes to marginalize is, in fact, a collection of associations like the National Rifle Association (with more than four million members), the Jews of the Preservation of Firearm Ownership, and dozens (if not hundreds) of other, smaller, often more locally-oriented (and often more hardcore than the NRA, trust me) groups, each composed of American citizens. If someone were to blame "Dumpshock" for something, it would make no sense, would it? They'd need to blame a given Dumpshock thread, Dumpshock poster, Dumpshock post, Dumpshock comment. Blaming "the NRA" (or the vaguer "the gun lobby") on something is simply a shorthand way of saying "I blame it on the American population," in other words.

"The gun lobby" is made up of people, who also vote and answer polls and sign petitions and have opinions of their own. We are not some monolithic entity. We are not a hive-mind. We are not some outsider meddling in American politics. "The gun lobby" is composed of American citizens who understand the importance of the 2A, and understand that it has nothing to do with duck hunting.

Nowadays, I understand even your average American can't be bothered to learn or care very much about it (or any of the rest of the Constitution), and I certainly don't expect the average German, Frenchman, Brit, etc, etc, to know or care very much, either.

Because I don't expect you to know or care very much, though, I get irritated when you speak up about it anyways, and say things that are quite simply wrong.

QUOTE
I'm off to work, so I'll leave this Wikipedia entry as a quick run down on guns and America..
...Guns and America

I haven't even read that (so it could be the most pro-gun page in the universe, I don't know), but it's wikipedia so I'm not going to bother. That could've been written by Charlton Heston, or it could've been written by Hillary Clinton. Either way, it is not an impartial source of information on a topic as ridiculously vague as "guns and America," and as such is probably not worth reading.

In the unlikely event anyone's actually interested in learning more about guns in America, neither the mainstream media (rife with incorrect and slanted statements, untruths, and outright lies) nor a source as easily edited and renowned for inaccuracy as wikipedia is the place to go.
Grinder
I didn't want to step on anyone's toes, just wanted to show what prejudices, pictures and ideas about the european's view on american gun (culture) is common (and I'm not free of believing them). I'd like to thank you, Critias, for the interesting and extensive postings. smile.gif
Critias
For what it's worth, I'm genuinely not frothing at the mouth right now. I'm just a little tired of talking about this. Lately I've gotten into my most light-hearted and ridiculous conversations over on Glocktalk (where I'm supposed to be discussing grown-up stuff like law enforcement's abuse of power, race relations, and firearm ownership) and all kinds of serious discussions over here on Dumpshock (where I'm supposed to talk about stupid game stuff). I resigned myself a long time ago to the idea of my Libertarian self actually because radically right-wing and conservative compared to most gamers; it's just something about the hobby, I guess, much like another of my geek passions, comic books. I know I'm the rabid gun-nut right-winger guy around here, or whatever, and hopefully everyone understands I don't necessarily mean to be.

It's just not in my nature to let things slide (ask the mods). If someone says something I believe to be incorrect, I correct them. If I believe that statement to be incorrect and it rubs me the wrong way, well, I correct them with a bit more vitriol than perhaps I should. Regardless, it's hard for me to not speak up sometimes. The older I get, the more seriously I take some stuff. Even worse, though, I keep stumbling across these comments that I'm physically incapable of ignoring while I'm sitting here at work. I'm at work! I should be doing other things, like organizing feedback for Tisoz's latest fiction contest or playing Tetris or maybe doing a little...what's that word? Oh, yeah. Work.

And so, in an effort to wrap up my participation in this particular avenue of discussion (concerning the 2A and what it might mean, should mean, might not mean, can mean, and sometimes does mean, to Americans), I'll just post this link right here, to dailykos.com, a really liberal web site that pleasantly surprised me when one of their members posted a blog/journal/essay/whatever called "Why Liberals Should Love The Second Amendment." What surprised me even more were some of the comments -- from dailykos members.

It's a long read. To lots of you it might even be a boring read. But maybe some of you will read it and understand a bit about where I'm coming from, and where lots of other Americans are coming from with our beliefs concerning those few lines of text that cause so much trouble. The initial essay, along with all the comments afterwards, came about wholly independent of "gun companies" (many of which aren't American and yet aren't pushing for Germany, Russia, Austria, or France to get a 2A of their own) and wholly independent of any sort of organized "gun lobby," because I'm willing to bet not many more members of dailykos.com are registered NRA members than, for instance, members of democraticunderground.

Lastly, to those of you of other nationalities who my little rants offend, I don't genuinely mean to. But when folks lash out at my house, sometimes my reaction is to lash out at theirs. A good chunk of my frustration over the entire conversational topic is that somehow people have got it into their heads that the right to self defense is somehow innately American. I feel that to be patently ridiculous. The right to defend yourself from the physical harm wrought upon you by others of ill intent is innately human, is innately that of any living creature, in fact. If someone means you ill and perpetrates an act of violence or invades your home in order to act out that ill will, no matter who you are or where you are from or what the color of your skin, you should be allowed to defend yourself and your family, period. I am saddened, as a human being, every time anyone of any country tries to argue otherwise. Passive resistance is great for political movements. It is no help at all against a junkie looking to kill you for the money in your pockets so he can get his next fix. Nothing disgusts me more than politicians and celebrities, surrounded by armed bodyguards, who try to tell other people they don't have a right to own a weapon or to otherwise defend themselves -- no matter what country those "other people" are from, or what nationality the politician in question might be.

And with all that out of the way, I'd really, really, like it if we could all get back to talking about imaginary everymen in our imaginary Shadowrun shared future. It's what got me into the thread in the first place, after all. Suffice it to say, as far as a Shadowrun "everyman" and gun ownship goes, I'd say the odds are against every single average guy on the street packing any sort of heat, nevermind the big and nasty kind that can't be concealed. It's entirely dependant upon where you run into that "everyman," of course, but I'd say maybe one in twelve or fifteen should have some sort of pistol on him. Legality aside, not everyone who can legally own a gun, even in yippy-kai-aye triggerhappy America, does. I don't imagine that changing in the future, when Big Brother makes your average SIN-holding wageslave even more "secure" and "comfortable" and "protected" (watched, monitored, and spied on). Megacorps are all about raising people to rely on the company for protection (along with relying on them for everything else). While firearm ownership might not be illegal, I can still see it being frowned upon by most corporations (with a few exceptions, line Lone Star or Ares, where they enjoy pushing that "gun toting cowboy" feel, and any actual gun toting cowboys growing up in the company are herded into security positions).
sunnyside
ON the note of everyman defence I think a lot would be packing things other than pistols. There are the obvious taser options but I bet the SR pepper spray varients are popular.

However I doubt it'd usually come up. A persons reaction to a gunfight is typically not to get involved.



Shiloh
QUOTE (sunnyside @ Apr 29 2008, 07:19 AM) *
...But for the more reality minded average Joe it better to have a smaller pistol you carry than a big one you don't. I mean today we have Desert Eagle .50s that people could carry. But in fact we see a whole lot of short 9mm pistols being carried...


Partly because a .50cal handcannon isn't necessary in the threat environment and real world shooting conditions mean that if you *have* to get into a gunfight, you're better off with 17 9mm parabellum in a Glock than 7 .50cal. You don't have to worry about defending yourself from cybered up trolls, or flak jacketed gangers. The threat and shooting environments are different in SR. The heavy pistols have comparable ammo loads to modern "light" pistols, your targets are more resilient.

For me, if the world works a certain way, the *rational* decisions would take that into account. Of course there are plenty of people who just get a gun without properly considering its purpose and their use of it, and they might feel better with their little L36 than without, but anyone who's actually thought about it would carry something with some serious stopping power.
Screamin Demon
What more do you need to know other then the fact that they have 9S, 9P and when they die you gotta hide the body or not have ever been there or the Star is going to be all up on your ass?
vladski
QUOTE (Critias @ Apr 29 2008, 03:28 AM) *
For what it's worth, I'm genuinely not frothing at the mouth right now. I'm just a little tired of talking about this. Lately I've gotten into my most light-hearted and ridiculous conversations over on Glocktalk (where I'm supposed to be discussing grown-up stuff like law enforcement's abuse of power, race relations, and firearm ownership) and all kinds of serious discussions over here on Dumpshock (where I'm supposed to talk about stupid game stuff). I resigned myself a long time ago to the idea of my Libertarian self actually because radically right-wing and conservative compared to most gamers; it's just something about the hobby, I guess, much like another of my geek passions, comic books. I know I'm the rabid gun-nut right-winger guy around here, or whatever, and hopefully everyone understands I don't necessarily mean to be.

It's just not in my nature to let things slide (ask the mods). If someone says something I believe to be incorrect, I correct them. If I believe that statement to be incorrect and it rubs me the wrong way, well, I correct them with a bit more vitriol than perhaps I should. Regardless, it's hard for me to not speak up sometimes. The older I get, the more seriously I take some stuff. Even worse, though, I keep stumbling across these comments that I'm physically incapable of ignoring while I'm sitting here at work. I'm at work! I should be doing other things, like organizing feedback for Tisoz's latest fiction contest or playing Tetris or maybe doing a little...what's that word? Oh, yeah. Work.

And so, in an effort to wrap up my participation in this particular avenue of discussion (concerning the 2A and what it might mean, should mean, might not mean, can mean, and sometimes does mean, to Americans), I'll just post this link right here, to dailykos.com, a really liberal web site that pleasantly surprised me when one of their members posted a blog/journal/essay/whatever called "Why Liberals Should Love The Second Amendment." What surprised me even more were some of the comments -- from dailykos members.

It's a long read. To lots of you it might even be a boring read. But maybe some of you will read it and understand a bit about where I'm coming from, and where lots of other Americans are coming from with our beliefs concerning those few lines of text that cause so much trouble. The initial essay, along with all the comments afterwards, came about wholly independent of "gun companies" (many of which aren't American and yet aren't pushing for Germany, Russia, Austria, or France to get a 2A of their own) and wholly independent of any sort of organized "gun lobby," because I'm willing to bet not many more members of dailykos.com are registered NRA members than, for instance, members of democraticunderground.

Lastly, to those of you of other nationalities who my little rants offend, I don't genuinely mean to. But when folks lash out at my house, sometimes my reaction is to lash out at theirs. A good chunk of my frustration over the entire conversational topic is that somehow people have got it into their heads that the right to self defense is somehow innately American. I feel that to be patently ridiculous. The right to defend yourself from the physical harm wrought upon you by others of ill intent is innately human, is innately that of any living creature, in fact. If someone means you ill and perpetrates an act of violence or invades your home in order to act out that ill will, no matter who you are or where you are from or what the color of your skin, you should be allowed to defend yourself and your family, period. I am saddened, as a human being, every time anyone of any country tries to argue otherwise. Passive resistance is great for political movements. It is no help at all against a junkie looking to kill you for the money in your pockets so he can get his next fix. Nothing disgusts me more than politicians and celebrities, surrounded by armed bodyguards, who try to tell other people they don't have a right to own a weapon or to otherwise defend themselves -- no matter what country those "other people" are from, or what nationality the politician in question might be.

And with all that out of the way, I'd really, really, like it if we could all get back to talking about imaginary everymen in our imaginary Shadowrun shared future. It's what got me into the thread in the first place, after all. Suffice it to say, as far as a Shadowrun "everyman" and gun ownship goes, I'd say the odds are against every single average guy on the street packing any sort of heat, nevermind the big and nasty kind that can't be concealed. It's entirely dependant upon where you run into that "everyman," of course, but I'd say maybe one in twelve or fifteen should have some sort of pistol on him. Legality aside, not everyone who can legally own a gun, even in yippy-kai-aye triggerhappy America, does. I don't imagine that changing in the future, when Big Brother makes your average SIN-holding wageslave even more "secure" and "comfortable" and "protected" (watched, monitored, and spied on). Megacorps are all about raising people to rely on the company for protection (along with relying on them for everything else). While firearm ownership might not be illegal, I can still see it being frowned upon by most corporations (with a few exceptions, line Lone Star or Ares, where they enjoy pushing that "gun toting cowboy" feel, and any actual gun toting cowboys growing up in the company are herded into security positions).


Thanks for providing that link. It's nice when you see some Dems that get it. And for the record, I vote Dem more often than Repub. But I will vote Repub. How do I classify myself? An American. I believe in the Constitution. That doesn't mean I am for or against welfare. It doesn't mean that I am pro or con abortion. It doesn't mean that approve or disapprove of same sex marriages. It doesn't mean I support or vilify universal health care insurance. It means I believe in my rights and that others also have them. I think if you really want to put a lable on me, I am a (more or less) libertarian (small l, not capital.) I believe in the right to own a gun. I am against the drug war. I am for pulling out of Iraq. I am torn on Afghanistan. I am opposed to preventive legislation. Giving up my rights doesn't make me safer. It makes me "easier" to deal with. I am an American. I don't want to be easy to deal with. I am going to stand up for my rights (and yours too.)

And I appreciate your statements to Synner667. Yeah, you probably got a little frothier than you meant to, but you aren't alone in your ire when folks who don't experience a society make statements that sound a bit judgemental or jsut get it "wrong."

And Synner, I am not harshing you. What you did accidentally was touch a very sore spot for many Americans that are rapidly seeing their rights peeled away. Seeing legislation get passed by both of our mainstream parties that 80 percent* of the population disagrees with. (* Yeah, I grabbed that figure off the top of my head, but if you do a poll, you will certainly find out that nearly all Americans are very dissatisfied with their government) We are supposed to be a representative government, but our choices at the polls are becoming more and more like Communist Russia's. Or more aptly, Shadowrun's. Big business controls our parties, not the people. The platforms of both major parties are for the rich and the big businesses. They are all owned by the same groups of powerful people answerable to really no one.

Finally, to bring this back a little more to topic:
I think the fluff of SR over hte years supports the idea that many, if not most SINners carry some form of weaponry for protection, at least in some areas. However, the likelihood that the majority of that same population has any real skill with a firearm is slim. Most any adults today can pick up and use a firearm. They are pretty intuitive. They've seen them used in countless movies and series. They've played with toy guns and BB guns and air rifles as kids. It might take 5 minutes to go over specifics (loading, cocking/chambering a round, disabling the safety) but the concept of "hold the grip, look down the sights (or jsut point the end with the hole in it) at what you are targeting and squeeze the trigger" is not hard to do. So, John Q Everyman can fire his L36 at the ganger. Does he have a skill? Probably not. At best, maybe a 1. Maybe he actually practices with his L36 a lot and is specialized in it for a 3?

What does that mean? It means he is probably using anywhere from 3-6 dice (Agility 2/3+Pistols1-3) firing a weapon at a knife wielding guy wearing little if any armor. He has a pretty good chance of hitting the guy with a damage code that will probably wind up being around 4-6P; basically half of the ganger's damage bar. The gun is semi-auto, meaning with his two shots he will either kill or massively disable the ganger. Sounds pretty reasonable to me. Especially when the ganger has no real way of knowing how skilled the guy is. Just brandishing the gun may be enough to win the situation for John Q Everyman.

Vlad
CanRay
Read the Prolog for "Debt of Non-Blood" to see just what Movies have taught the average person. wink.gif
vladski
QUOTE (CanRay @ Apr 29 2008, 08:39 AM) *
Read the Prolog for "Debt of Non-Blood" to see just what Movies have taught the average person. wink.gif

You know, you should really post the link to your wonderful fiction. I had to take 30 seconds to huntdown my bookmark. nyahnyah.gif

Looks to be another great one! I never did post feedback at Deviant Art on your latest finished one: A Night Never To Remember. I liked it as much as the first! REally, really entertaining. Let me know when you get a fanclub. I'll have to join. Or not. I am really not much of a joiner. wink.gif

Vlad
CanRay
QUOTE (vladski @ Apr 29 2008, 09:06 AM) *
You know, you should really post the link to your wonderful fiction. I had to take 30 seconds to huntdown my bookmark. nyahnyah.gif

Looks to be another great one! I never did post feedback at Deviant Art on your latest finished one: A Night Never To Remember. I liked it as much as the first! REally, really entertaining. Let me know when you get a fanclub. I'll have to join. Or not. I am really not much of a joiner. wink.gif

Vlad

*Points to Signature*

Chapter 1 of the story JUST got uploaded.
vladski
QUOTE (CanRay @ Apr 29 2008, 09:18 AM) *
*Points to Signature*

Chapter 1 of the story JUST got uploaded.

*squints*

Dammit, I never look at that stuff down there. It's like those annoying news scrolls. How am I supposed to watch the talking heads report on the latest Britney scandal and read that oil jsut climbed to 118 bucks a barrel in the fine print? Meh.

Vlad
CanRay
QUOTE (vladski @ Apr 29 2008, 09:22 AM) *
*squints*

Dammit, I never look at that stuff down there. It's like those annoying news scrolls. How am I supposed to watch the talking heads report on the latest Britney scandal and read that oil jsut climbed to 118 bucks a barrel in the fine print? Meh.

Vlad

Time to get the eyes done then, Vlad. Or get the Cyberoptics tuned. You know you have to get your systems checked out after every few runs, right? nyahnyah.gif
sunnyside
QUOTE (Shiloh @ Apr 29 2008, 05:07 AM) *
Partly because a .50cal handcannon isn't necessary in the threat environment and real world shooting conditions mean that if you *have* to get into a gunfight, you're better off with 17 9mm parabellum in a Glock than 7 .50cal. You don't have to worry about defending yourself from cybered up trolls, or flak jacketed gangers. The threat and shooting environments are different in SR. The heavy pistols have comparable ammo loads to modern "light" pistols, your targets are more resilient.

For me, if the world works a certain way, the *rational* decisions would take that into account. Of course there are plenty of people who just get a gun without properly considering its purpose and their use of it, and they might feel better with their little L36 than without, but anyone who's actually thought about it would carry something with some serious stopping power.



Alright I in principle agree with you on the rational bit. However you must admit that any self defense shooter you ask in real life, right now, will tell you to get at least a 9mm and will generally suggest a .45 for stopping power.

But what are the gun manufacturers making that people are buying?
[img]http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/pix/p32_in_palm_350.jpg[/img]
(Um how does image code work on this board?)

http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/p32.html
That's a Kel-Tec P32 .32 ACP Pistol

Yes that's right a .32 And a very short one at that. And you see a lot of .38 and .380ACP varients out there too.


For a runner that 2 or 4 concealability modifier isn't a big deal. To John Q it's the difference between leaving the gun at home and actually having it on them.

(FYI for the SR2/3 people. In SR4 the difference between the heavy pistol and the light pistol isn't huge like it was before.
stevebugge
QUOTE (Critias @ Apr 29 2008, 01:02 AM) *
I've done so often enough in other threads -- wholly unconcerned about what kind of "buffoon" some of you might think me -- that I'm really just tired of repeating myself about all of it, by this point. The sticking point in your particular post, though, was where you insisted no one but firearm companies and the nameless, faceless, "gun lobby" ever argue for keeping the 2nd Amendment on the books.

Dumpshock is hardly the place for an in-depth debate on the 2A and what is means -- and what it should mean -- to American citizens, but suffice it to say I think you are both incorrect and ignorant.

That you are ignorant is not your fault (because I somehow doubt that the British education system goes very in-depth into what the Second Amendment is for, because I know first-hand what shoddy coverage it gets here, and I doubt your schools would be terribly impartial about it), that you are ignorant but still spout your incorrect ideas is, and is what I take offense to.

The "gun lobby" that everyone likes to marginalize is, in fact, a collection of associations like the National Rifle Association (with more than four million members), the Jews of the Preservation of Firearm Ownership, and dozens (if not hundreds) of other, smaller, often more locally-oriented (and often more hardcore than the NRA, trust me) groups, each composed of American citizens. If someone were to blame "Dumpshock" for something, it would make no sense, would it? They'd need to blame a given Dumpshock thread, Dumpshock poster, Dumpshock post, Dumpshock comment. Blaming "the NRA" (or the vaguer "the gun lobby") on something is simply a shorthand way of saying "I blame it on the American population," in other words.

"The gun lobby" is made up of people, who also vote and answer polls and sign petitions and have opinions of their own. We are not some monolithic entity. We are not a hive-mind. We are not some outsider meddling in American politics. "The gun lobby" is composed of American citizens who understand the importance of the 2A, and understand that it has nothing to do with duck hunting.

Nowadays, I understand even your average American can't be bothered to learn or care very much about it (or any of the rest of the Constitution), and I certainly don't expect the average German, Frenchman, Brit, etc, etc, to know or care very much, either.

Because I don't expect you to know or care very much, though, I get irritated when you speak up about it anyways, and say things that are quite simply wrong.


I haven't even read that (so it could be the most pro-gun page in the universe, I don't know), but it's wikipedia so I'm not going to bother. That could've been written by Charlton Heston, or it could've been written by Hillary Clinton. Either way, it is not an impartial source of information on a topic as ridiculously vague as "guns and America," and as such is probably not worth reading.

In the unlikely event anyone's actually interested in learning more about guns in America, neither the mainstream media (rife with incorrect and slanted statements, untruths, and outright lies) nor a source as easily edited and renowned for inaccuracy as wikipedia is the place to go.


Hey, you left out my favorite part of the "Gun Lobby" the Washington Arms Collectors!
CanRay
QUOTE (sunnyside @ Apr 29 2008, 09:37 AM) *
(FYI for the SR2/3 people. In SR4 the difference between the heavy pistol and the light pistol isn't huge like it was before.

It's going to be with my group. I'm keeping the concealment rules!
vladski
QUOTE (CanRay @ Apr 29 2008, 09:25 AM) *
Time to get the eyes done then, Vlad. Or get the Cyberoptics tuned. You know you have to get your systems checked out after every few runs, right? nyahnyah.gif


I forgot to take a cyber doc contact. embarrassed.gif

But I do wear a real imitation synthleather duster! I am not a complete noob. biggrin.gif

Vlad
masterofm
The survival kit has a knife in it for John Q. Everyman, but a shock baton or something similar would also work I guess.

@ everyone who ran off topic - Hey stop messing with the thread.

And stay off my lawn! *shakes fist*

to move off topic now -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqpfUK1N8r0

This made me actually LOL
vladski
QUOTE (stevebugge @ Apr 29 2008, 09:48 AM) *
Hey, you left out my favorite part of the "Gun Lobby" the Washington Arms Collectors!


Y'know, if I was starting a lobby that is likely to come under fire (pun intended), I think I would make sure that the acronym wasn't WACky. *snort*

Vlad
Triggerz
QUOTE (Critias @ Apr 29 2008, 04:28 AM) *
And so, in an effort to wrap up my participation in this particular avenue of discussion (concerning the 2A and what it might mean, should mean, might not mean, can mean, and sometimes does mean, to Americans), I'll just post this link right here, to dailykos.com, a really liberal web site that pleasantly surprised me when one of their members posted a blog/journal/essay/whatever called "Why Liberals Should Love The Second Amendment." What surprised me even more were some of the comments -- from dailykos members.

I thought the reason Liberals should love the Second Amendment was that American citizens have the right to bear arms so that they can get themselves rid of bad governments, like, say... hmmm... Ok, I think I'm not going to give any examples. nyahnyah.gif

But... I would suggest that one has to keep in mind that the Vice-President becomes President if something unfortunate happens to the latter, so... well... there might be benefits to doing things in a certain order. nyahnyah.gif

Just a thought... grinbig.gif

(By the way, don't take any of this too seriously. I'm a peace-loving, tree-hugging Canadian, so what would I know about any of that stuff?)

[EDIT: Also, were anything to happen to the nation's Commander-in-Chief, Civil Rights in the U.S. would probably disappear, so I wasn't advocating anything of that nature. Just thinking silly thoughts aloud...]
vladski
Trying to completely get away from firearms skills on this thread...

Honestly, I've never actually written up stats as a GM for an "Everyman". This person, by their nature, is gonna have 2's and 3's for all their stats. Their skills are gonna range from 1-4(a rarity) with most of them being 1's and 2's. I have always just played a "citizen" off the cuff. If they need to do something, I pause and think aobut "who" they are and then roll something in the range of 4-6 dice for anything I figure they would need to do. If it's something really important, I will give them 1 Edge point that I will use for a re-roll. If it's a re-occurring NPC, I jot down the dice I have assigned as I play them, slowly building up a character. However, Ido think a BP build number if you were creating Joe Average would be in the 150 range, give or take 25.

As far as cyber goes, I figure most corp slaves are gonna have a datajack (and let's not forget that jsut because the world went wireless 5 years ago, all it's civvies weren't BORN 5 years ago. If you are over 25, you probably have a "hole" in your head, if you are mundane. They probably jsut have an electronic wireless jack plug they fit into the socket. A lot cheaper than surgery and it has to be as good, if not better. Easily upgradable.

Vlad
stevebugge
QUOTE (vladski @ Apr 29 2008, 07:02 AM) *
Y'know, if I was starting a lobby that is likely to come under fire (pun intended), I think I would make sure that the acronym wasn't WACky. *snort*

Vlad


It's even better it shares initials with:

The Western Athletic Conference and the Washington Athletic Club

but even with the WACky initials they do a good job, especialy with gun safety classes
Speed Wraith
Should John Q. Public have an Edge score of 2? nyahnyah.gif Sorry if someone else has already mentioned that, hard to cut through the debate stuff (for the record, I'm a strong supporter of the 2nd and a liberal nyahnyah.gif).
stevebugge
QUOTE (vladski @ Apr 29 2008, 09:51 AM) *
Trying to completely get away from firearms skills on this thread...

Honestly, I've never actually written up stats as a GM for an "Everyman". This person, by their nature, is gonna have 2's and 3's for all their stats. Their skills are gonna range from 1-4(a rarity) with most of them being 1's and 2's. I have always just played a "citizen" off the cuff. If they need to do something, I pause and think aobut "who" they are and then roll something in the range of 4-6 dice for anything I figure they would need to do. If it's something really important, I will give them 1 Edge point that I will use for a re-roll. If it's a re-occurring NPC, I jot down the dice I have assigned as I play them, slowly building up a character. However, Ido think a BP build number if you were creating Joe Average would be in the 150 range, give or take 25.

As far as cyber goes, I figure most corp slaves are gonna have a datajack (and let's not forget that jsut because the world went wireless 5 years ago, all it's civvies weren't BORN 5 years ago. If you are over 25, you probably have a "hole" in your head, if you are mundane. They probably jsut have an electronic wireless jack plug they fit into the socket. A lot cheaper than surgery and it has to be as good, if not better. Easily upgradable.

Vlad


I've gotten the impression that for a lot of wageslaves minor cyber like datajacks, headware memory, implanted comms or other productivity enhancers would be quite common, some corps might even give them away as "bonuses" to loyal workers. I would not be suprised if average civilian essence was between 4.5 and 5.9, rather than 6. By 2070 the 'weirdness' or 'creepiness' of getting something put in your body would have long passed for most of society.
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