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Prospero
So... this might be a volatile topic, but, hey, why not? What do you consider power gaming? What do you consider munchkinism? Are these things ever okay? For that matter, what is a "real roleplayer"?

The Character Creation system thread got me thinking about this. Yum Donuts (I believe... sorry if I'm wrong and sorry if I misrepresented what you said) had a really good distinction between the two (which I'd never thought about before): power gaming is using the numbers to make a character as good as possible. Munchkinism is doing that (perhaps on an even worse level) and then no roleplaying at all tacked on as an added bonus.

So what do people out there think about this stuff?

*duck and cover* spin.gif
Yum Donuts
That's almost exactly what I meant.

I am a rules-bitch. I used to be able to cite page numbers from memory for rules, and I knew all the tricks and all the math to cram as much into a character as possible. And I would do just that, every now and then, for fun.
But I would never actually PLAY such a monstrosity. there's no fun in it without some kind of persona.
Take my gunslinger physmage, Tybalt. I got the idea from John Leguizamo's rendition of the role, and wanted something like it. so I came up with a story about the son of a mafioso who killed the heavily cybered son of a bigwig Yak (who everyone knew was a prick and was asking for it). to avoid a war, he had to be excluded from all family business, and could receive no aid. He could still come to birthdays, weddings and the like, but he had to be careful because if it became known on the streets who he was, it would cause all kinds of problems. He was also very vain, with a high charisma, and skills like fashion, and ballroom dancing.
So I made a character with a definite personality, an interresting backstory, a hidden secret and skills and abilities to give him a distinctive flair.
But you bet your ass that I made him awesome at gun slinging too, and that he could hold his own against any sammy. I counted every spell point, and every nuyen to make him exactly as powerful as I thought he should be. Let the GM worry about balancing me with the group, if I want my character to be good at something, he will be.

So you can call me a munchkin if you want, but I don't think "munchkin" has to be about the powerlevel of the character, I've seen several munchkins who sucked at number crunching at chargen. the point comes up whether you're playing a character, or playing a set of stats.
Cray74
QUOTE (Prospero)
So... this might be a volatile topic, but, hey, why not? What do you consider power gaming? What do you consider munchkinism? Are these things ever okay? For that matter, what is a "real roleplayer"?

The Character Creation system thread got me thinking about this. Yum Donuts (I believe... sorry if I'm wrong and sorry if I misrepresented what you said) had a really good distinction between the two (which I'd never thought about before): power gaming is using the numbers to make a character as good as possible. Munchkinism is doing that (perhaps on an even worse level) and then no roleplaying at all tacked on as an added bonus.

So what do people out there think about this stuff?

*duck and cover*  spin.gif

I don't mind power gaming at all. Some of my most fun and best roleplaying has occurred in games where my character was powerful beyond the normal bounds of the game - a 5th generation, 1000-year old vampire with a corporate empire of nuclear power plants. Combat was limited, because I either fought trivial threats [1] or because getting into life-or-death fights with 'serious' opponents would involve extensive damage to corporate facilities. (Elders don't just brawl in the streets, they try to destroy their foes' possessions and wealth. I really didn't want to loose my corporate empire.) So it was all roleplaying, deal making, etc.

[1] Fun fight: a 'coterie' of high generation, young vampires showed up to 'thwart my evil schemes.' They were a bunch of NPCs being played like a PC gaming group - very amusing.

I've seen the same thing in DnD, where high level PCs just don't have many foes, but they do have noble titles, lands, etc. They're powerful enough to kill dragons on a whim ("Gee, guests are coming over next week...I think a stuffed 'n mounted red dragon head would look fetching in the great hall. I better go get one.")

Shadowrun's a bit more limited because it doesn't have the 'tools' like World of Darkness to reflect growing PC 'influence,' 'resources,' etc. All those details are less quantified and more dependent on GM judgment and roleplaying, which means a GM that isn't terribly familiar with city politics may make naive (or unduly harsh) decisions regarding a PC's ability to influence a metroplex legislator to, say, improve living conditions in the Barrens. With Backgrounds, a WoD character could roll his Influence (City Politics) at a GM-set target number.

While SR might not support that kind of power roleplaying, it's still fun to play a very potent SR PC. When you have a PC with the tools, skills, and/or spells, it's fun to sit back and reflect, "Damn, I'm playing an elite ninja commando badass." Sure, combat's quick and perfunctory most of the time, but that's the point of being elite, isn't it? You make difficult tasks look easy, and they might even be easy.

Munchkins, though. Munchkins are the power gamer without the interest in roleplaying. No fun there. And I agree with Yum Donuts: munchkins do not necessarily have good characters. They two key distinctions are an attempt to have a powerful character and the lack of interest in roleplaying.
Traks
Looke like lately we have stumbled upon a horde of beaten dead horses, right? smile.gif
Tziluthi
I've always seen the difference between power-gaming (or min-maxing) and munchkinism to be: A min-maxer will sit down and, after looking at all the heavy pistols, will pick out an Ares Viper, then almost definately tack on a smartlink and all that. A munchkin will sit down with the CC weapon creation rules and create a pistol that puts the AVS to shame, and then proceed to cause havok way outside the scope of the story much to the annoyance of the GM, if not everybody esle in the group.
Yum Donuts
QUOTE (Tziluthi)
I've always seen the difference between power-gaming (or min-maxing) and munchkinism to be: A min-maxer will sit down and, after looking at all the heavy pistols, will pick out an Ares Viper, then almost definately tack on a smartlink and all that. A munchkin will sit down with the CC weapon creation rules and create a pistol that puts the AVS to shame, and then proceed to cause havok way outside the scope of the story much to the annoyance of the GM, if not everybody esle in the group.

Nope, you still don't get it. My gunbunny would also be making the ultimate custom pistol from CC rules too. that's what the options are there fore, to be used. but whereas the munchkin would just design the gun he wants and then use it, the powergamer would design the gun they want, out of game, then spend in-game time and money to buy contacts to get estimates done about what could be done to a pistol and for how much (the character doesn't have Guns(B/R), so they wouldn't know how to design it themselves). the power gamer would then realize the balisitc implications that came with having a custom-made weapon, and try to minimize it's use for fear of it being tracked down.

As a power gamer, if I can get better gear, I will. but I will not sacrifice believability and roleplay for it, instead I will use them as the basis for it.

Maxing out the perfect pistol for your character using CC does not make you a munchkin any more than the desire to wear shoes that fit makes you a perfectionist. The rules are there for creating a gun, so the system must want it to be a possibility, and why not create the best gun you can?
Logo
What pisses me off is not getting the most for your nuyen, but making the character rediculous. When I GM, if I see something on a character that the owner can't come up with a passable reason for owning, I don't let them have it ("Where'd you get those Deltaware wired reflexes?" "A friend" "Sure..."). I try to mold my characters the same, as well. That's why my characters tend to go later in battle, because I don't have 20 reaction with 80d6 initiative nyahnyah.gif

My latest character is my favorite example. He's effectively a punk, skates, spraypaint, dislike for authority, the works, but he's a little older than most punks. Since he's been doing anti-authority for so long, he's picked up a few items that help him out, like a tracheal (sp?) filter for all those nasty gas grenades, a knowledge of police tactics, and a some other useful anti-authority tools (jammers, etc.)

I make the character, then I make the stats, and I really think that's the way everyone should do it. After I have a rough character, I give them edges and flaws, and from there, the rest of their stats, equipment, and other things all seem to fall into place.
Reaver
Power gaming is only fun (IMHO) if you have started your character up from the ground floor. At least you have a complete background history of what the character went through... cause you were really there and did it.

As an example, the character I use in my stories orginally started out in 1st ed. SR as Paladin. The character was an exercise of what kind of character you would have if you took your own stats and translated them into SR, just like a post going on right now. Paladin had been through a LOT, and was developing some nasty enemies and decided to fake his own death to become Reaver. And the rest is history. Paladin/Reaver has had a lot of color in his background with the runs he has done and the groups he has been with. So, at a little over 1,000 shadow total (only 400 as Reaver), he is now a definite power gaming level character that requires nastier threats. The bonus is, he's a character that has a lot under his belt and some great roleplaying memories. biggrin.gif
Ol' Scratch
All three of these are completely different things. More than one can apply to a player or a situation, but they are still three different things.

Min-Maxing: Making wise decisions when designing your character so that you minimize your losses while gaining the maximum benefit in your chosen field. Good min-maxers make these decisions based upon their characters, while bad min-maxers make it a complete numbers game and make their decisions for purely metagaming reasons.

Power-Gaming: Setting character creation guidelines well above the normal limit and then focusing around playing at nearly insane levels. Scenarios like Survival of the Fittest are power-gaming scenarios. Creating characters that take on dragons, immortal elves, and megacorporate CEOs on a regular basis and winning is power-gaming.

Munchkinism: Typically comprised of newbies who either don't understand the rules or the game's concept, and who pick outrageous things just because they think it'll let them be anime-ish or whatever. Nine times out of ten, they have no concern about what the rules say and completely ignore them if they get in their way. They also tend to cheat during a game and whine if they have to take even the most mild of setbacks. They're also usually well out of sync power-wise with the rest of the group.
Dende
Holy shit some of you seem confused...

Doc I love your definition of Power Gaming, right on.

Min-Maxing, I see as the beginning of Munchkinning, honestly, IMO I see min-maxing as someone picking a set of skills because those are going to be more useful, usually still within the system's normal bounds... IE a Starting troll with 9 or 10 STR

Whereas, I see Munchkinning as something NO NEWBIE could EVER do, on purpose. Munchkinning in my mind requires someone who knows how to fully exploit the rules to create characters that are unbalancing A LONG ways from the rest of the group. It is no longer about being a specialist...but being an UBER in some skill, usually only a few, though becuase they have put all their skills into only a few places. They plan characters out as being able to be the most powerful, for the cheapest possible cost... IE melee chars maxing the STR stat to put more points in katana for less cost so they can pump it higher, faster.
Reaver
QUOTE (Dende)
Holy shit some of you seem confused...

Doc I love your definition of Power Gaming, right on.

Min-Maxing, I see as the beginning of Munchkinning, honestly, IMO I see min-maxing as someone picking a set of skills because those are going to be more useful, usually still within the system's normal bounds... IE a Starting troll with 9 or 10 STR

Whereas, I see Munchkinning as something NO NEWBIE could EVER do, on purpose. Munchkinning in my mind requires someone who knows how to fully exploit the rules to create characters that are unbalancing A LONG ways from the rest of the group. It is no longer about being a specialist...but being an UBER in some skill, usually only a few, though becuase they have put all their skills into only a few places. They plan characters out as being able to be the most powerful, for the cheapest possible cost... IE melee chars maxing the STR stat to put more points in katana for less cost so they can pump it higher, faster.

I've seen newbies do munchkin just as much as those who do know the rules. I think both your definitions would be correct. smile.gif
CoalHeart
It's not about powergaming or munchinining. It's all about having style and good roleplaying and interactions.

Let the noob or even the pro get every point they can out of thier character. Looking at how fatal shadowrun can be they'll need every point they can get. Just make sure they have a good personality too smile.gif

Sure my character can punch a hole through a truck's engine block, powerlift 800 kilos, fly, deck, rig, and shoot.(all exagerations) Does it matter? No. Because it's just numbers on paper. You have to be able to play, and interact or there is no point in even calculating the cost of karma/yen needed to get the next best thing.

A munchkin is someone who gets the best they can on the sheet, and thats it... they just say thier dice rolling is thier roleplaying thusly ruining everyone elses fun. Rather lame in my book.

Power gaming is a frame of mind, somepeople feel no growth is a good thing. So they're complacent with where they are. A powergamer looks for advancement. Thats all fine and good as long as they behave as thier character would to get there. Very easy to fall into munchyness here.

So in the end I will summarize.

Munchkin = Player who only throws dice at something until it goes away.
Powergamer = Player who looks for the next thing to get more dice.
Munchkin Powergamer = Player who throws dice at something just to get more dice to throw more dice and so on ad infinitum.
Roleplaying Munchkin= Player who can not exist without causing a universal paradox.
Roleplaying Powergamer = Player who roleplays constantly with the goal of getting more dice at the end of it.
Standard gamer = Player who throws dice at problems that need dice thrown at it, who's goal is to get more dice eventually, but most importantly is there to have fun.

And yes, I had a herbal breakfast so my views are skewed.
BitBasher
I also see min-maxing and munchkinizing as a function of the order of creation somewhat.

A player building a legitimate character knows what the character is like and how he plans to operate. He makes a background and all the groundwork, then buys cyberware and assigns attribs and skills to flesh out that character.

A player min-maxing or munching finishes all the stats first, working out what can cram in then shrink wraps a usually generic (corp experiment, military reject(Bonus lame points for punching out a commanding officer) or such) background around it in an attempt to come up with a reason the character has all that crap, usually not a good reason.
Ol' Scratch
I completely disagree. A munchkin or powergamer can often be a min-maxer, but a min-maxer need not be a munchkin or powergamer.

Everyone min-maxes. If you didn't, all your stats would be 3 and all of your skills (of which you would either have all of the ones available or none of them at all) would be at 3 as well. You would have no cyberware, as any cyberware would be chosen to give you an advantage at the cost of a hindrance, and that's min-maxing.

Min-maxing is simply making wise decisions for your character. Most people do it to build a specific character, while others do it just to see what the numbers can do. The former is a typical player (and some are better at making decisions than others; don't get me started on the "soldiers" created in a recent PbB board such as a weapon specialist with firearm skills of 2), while the latter tend to gravitate towards powergaming or munchkin land.
Lilt
I agree with Dr Funk's definitions. The boundareis are never quite clear-cut (munchkins will foreseeably min/max if they know how to)

Some sample actions from the various categories are:

Min/Maxing:
Puting high numbers in intelligence and quickness (trivial, but still technically min/maxing)
Calculating probabilities (again, trivial, but again min/maxing)
Using the firearms design rules to get a kickass home-made SOTA Pistol-sized AR. (less trivial)

PowerGaming
DR funk's examples are spot-on

Munchkinning:
Taking extra language skills for free as the char was brought-up in a bilingual family
Buying the intimidation skill based on your strength because you're so hard
Taking gear found on web sites without GM consent
Deliberately breaking the rules in a way that makes your character more powerful
Dende
Lilt and Dr Funk, I am sorry, but I have to totally disagree, most Munchkins in my experience aren't cheating at all. They haven't broken any rules...all they did was exploit the rules to make vastly "superior" characters in only 1 or 2 areas. They distance themselves from what is sane comparatively with the rest of the group...if everyone did it, then you have a powergame.
Fresno Bob
What I don't get, is why everyone hates powerful characters. It seems every time someone makes a character that is for "Role, not ROLL, playing" (Why aren't there haughty accent tags?!), that character really....really...really sucks. Like...Quadraplegic Deaf Mages, or Blind Gay Trolls who have no combat skills whatsoever. Or something like that. Its like they think having a drekky (That doesn't sound right...whats the SR equivalent of shitty?) character is some sort of badge that makes them better than regular players, who make characters who are decent at something.

If you have a problem with Munchkins, do what I do. Take his character sheet. Copy it for an NPC. Give this NPC plus 2 to all stats, plus 3 to all skills, and more cyber/spells/guns/whatever. Make the Munchkin fight it. Alone, preferably.
Tanka
QUOTE (Voorhees)
What I don't get, is why everyone hates powerful characters. It seems every time someone makes a character that is for "Role, not ROLL, playing" (Why aren't there haughty accent tags?!), that character really....really...really sucks. Like...Quadraplegic Deaf Mages, or Blind Gay Trolls who have no combat skills whatsoever. Or something like that. Its like they think having a drekky (That doesn't sound right...whats the SR equivalent of shitty?) character is some sort of badge that makes them better than regular players, who make characters who are decent at something.

If you have a problem with Munchkins, do what I do. Take his character sheet. Copy it for an NPC. Give this NPC plus 2 to all stats, plus 3 to all skills, and more cyber/spells/guns/whatever. Make the Munchkin fight it. Alone, preferably.

Actually, my GM-who-plays with a player-who-GMs has a Pacifist Snake Shaman. She (The character, the GM is male) has a skill in Whips, specifically a Monowhip. She's used it once, on a Spirit while in the Metaplanes.

Other than that, no Combat skills, per se. Just an intellect to get around combat, and is roleplayed quite well for being what some would consider sucky.

Oh, and I think it's actually "drekky," so you were right. At least, I've seen no other slang to say otherwise.
Jason Farlander
I've always thought of munchkinism as more of a mindset than a particular behavior set or playing style, though, of course, some playing styles and behaviors are rather common among munchkins. Munchkins are those players who are trying to *win* the game, and see all of the other players, as well as the GM, as opponents. They tend to not really care about how much fun anyone else is having.

I agree with Dr. F about powergaming, except for the fact that it doesn't have to involve altered chargen rules. Advanced campaigns can become powergames, as runners tend to get a little crazy with around 200 karma, and simply increasing the rate of karma acquisition can quickly lead to a rather powerful game.

As Dr. F. mentioned, everyone does some degree of min/maxing when they generate characters. Because of this, I use the term "min/maxer" to describe gamers who do this well beyond what is normal in roleplaying, who often go beyond "wise" desicions to generate characters who excel beyond reason in their chosen personal specialty, at the expense of not being able to do much else. Again, there is a degree of intent in what defines a min/maxer... not everyone who sets their charisma at 1 is a min/maxer, but the person who does so "because it doesnt factor into any combat abilities" almost certainly is.

Not all min/maxers are munchkins, though... even though their goal is to make the best character possible for whatever it is they want their character to excel in, this does not *always* mean that their goal in the game is to beat everone else. As such, as long as the player doesnt try to get in the way of anyone else's fun, I dont really mind the overly min/maxed characters. If playing with numbers in chargen is someones idea of the best part of roleplaying, well fine. Having fun is supposed to be the point, afterall.
bwdemon
Powergaming: Extreme effectiveness within the boundaries of the campaign and utilizing only canon or balanced non-canon options.

Munchkin: Extreme effectiveness outside the boundaries of the campaign or utilizing unbalanced non-canon options.

Extreme effectiveness: Success, usually overwhelming success, is a given against *any* target in the chosen area that the character is likely to face in-game. Combat, spellcasting, decking, rigging, social skills... all of those can be powergamed or munchkin in scope.

Boundaries of the campaign: An archetype character armed with an LMG can be munchkin just as easily as a character with an undetectable rotary plasma death beam holdout pistol that doesn't need any ammo. The boundaries of the campaign determine the line between powergame and munchkin.

Balanced non-canon options: Spells, equipment, and other such things that have a cost (be it in karma, cash, or whatever) commensurate with their benefit and that are not accepted as canon in SR3.

Unbalanced non-canon options: See "undetectable rotary plasma death beam holdout pistol that doesn't need any ammo". Things that do not have a cost sufficient to balance the benefit(s) that they provide and are not accepted as canon in SR3.
Tanka
OK, the most horrible munchkinism, I have to admit, comes from SR2. This was one of my first mishaps, even though I still like SR2 a bit more than SR3.

A Troll with a Body of something ridiculous (nearing 20, IIRC).
Skill of Firearms (Assault Rifles (HVAR)) 4(6(8))
Enhanced Articulation and a Reflex Recorder for Assault Rifles, thusly giving him, while using his HVAR, a Skill of 10 + Combat Pool (Which was 11, IIRC).

Oh, and did I mention that in SR2, a Customized Grip gave an extra die, and not RC1? Yeah, so 11 Dice using his HVAR, plus Combat Pool.

That one got put in jail kind of fast, though. He wasn't too keen on hiding his illegal stuff from the cops.

Never again. Oi.
Lilt
Dende: Disagreeing is fine. I'd just suggest that you consider what word you'd use for someone who invents new rules that make his or her character more powerful.

I'd call doing anything within the rules that makes characters more powerful Min/Maxing with varying degrees of severity. That extends all the way up-to completely absurd characters. I use the term "Bad Roleplayer" to describe someone who's character background was poor/carbon-copy/just plain stupid and the same to describe someone who Roll-Plays.

[edit]That definition was good: Munchkins are people who use unbalanced non-canon options[/edit]
Ol' Scratch
Exactly.

The terms are just used to describe certain behaviors. The context of the terms vary; a min/maxer can be a good player with a good, solid character, or a min/maxer can be a munchkin powergamer with a Charisma of 1 'cause it interfers with his other cool powers and abilities. They're both still min/maxers as far as the term is concerned.
Sahandrian
I think munchkin can be summed up in a single quote from one of my more infamous players...

During character creation on AIM:

Munchkin: Can I be an elven prince?
Me: What do you think?
Munchkin: yes!! ^_^ THANK YOU CHRIS!!
Me: ...No.
Ol' Scratch
The fact that he used the ^_^ emoticon is enough for me to want to smack him upside the head.
Dende
Lilt,
I would call a person who made rules a big honking cheater. So long as you are within the rules, but not using common sense you can still do some pretty sick shit, and munchkin fully within canon. I draw a line between munchkin and cheat...though obviously there are munchkins that cheat.

If everyone in the group does it, you ahve a powergame(which of course can happen just from a high level/high karma campaign anyway)
Sphynx
How come we don't have a term for people who see a character, and complain non-stop as to how 'wrong' the character is and how they'd NEVER be allowed in their group.

How come we don't have a word for these supriority types who think that if you have some numbers on your sheet, then you must not know how to 'role' play, because anyone who knows how to 'role' play would never have such numbers on their sheet.

My definition of a Munchkin is also a bit off from the rest. My definition of Munchkin is anyone who 'role' plays their way intelligently out of situations in manners that most avoid confrontation, but are not sticking to either the numbers on their sheet, or belief that an NPC won't back down based on their fine performance, or people that think a GM is bad because he doesn't change TN's for good 'role' playing. Sorry munchkins, I reward good RPing with a bonus karma point, and maybe a quicker refreshment of karma pool, but I don't change how difficult a task is because it was well 'role' played, just like I don't assume you can actually be as intelligent or charismatic as your character and thus increase your TN for trying, but failing, to be as convincing.

Oh, and a munchkin is also someone who munches numbers to EXTREME, like realizing that 320k can be quite a bit cheaper than the 16BP needed to get +8 to attributes at Char Gen (Augment/Toners). wink.gif But I like those kinda munchkins usually. nyahnyah.gif

Sphynx
Siege
We do have a term -- "Sphynx's Fan Club". grinbig.gif

-Siege
Sphynx
Nah, we don't have a term cause we're busy having fun instead of sticking our noses up at another person's definition of fun. nyahnyah.gif

Sphynx
Ol' Scratch
You mean like in that last post of yours?
gknoy
QUOTE (Yum Donuts)
Maxing out the perfect pistol for your character using CC does not make you a munchkin any more than the desire to wear shoes that fit makes you a perfectionist.

Not to mention that if you've spent the skills on gunsmithing and things like that, it seems perfectly reasonable to be starting with something of your own creation. Or to build one in-game.
mfb
or you're an adept, and you've got all this money lying around and there's nothing else to spend it on.

not that i'd know anything about that.
Tanka
QUOTE (mfb)
or you're an adept, and you've got all this money lying around and there's nothing else to spend it on.

not that i'd know anything about that.

Ha! So put it into Certified Cred for other identities?

OK, OK, so nobody plans that far ahead. Sue me!
gknoy
QUOTE (mfb)
or you're an adept, and you've got all this money lying around and there's nothing else to spend it on.

not that i'd know anything about that.

it's funny ... usually, my adepts have a hard time affording anthing besides basic weapons (or three), and a dingy, slum-side apartment. =) Tho, yes -- 20k nuyen can go a long way with an adept -- it only gets expensive when you want to buy a smartlink or two wink.gif (well, not "only", but that was my experience.)

What I don't like is, sometimes I come up with a great background, and can't afford the contacts to make it fit (since a level3 contact, even one you almost never see, is SO expensive). I'd add flaws of enemies or something, but I don't know those rules. Why level3? well, I'd consider a longtime decking buddy/mentor a level 2 or so, but that decker girl you love who you've never met but with whom you've sworn mutual save-your-hoop promises seems like more than a lvl2. wink.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
The fact that he used the ^_^ emoticon is enough for me to want to smack him upside the head.

LOL! I always think of Anime Cat People when I see that emoticon.
Ol' Scratch
Using the Cannon Companion firearm creation rules to create a custom firearm for a gunsmith/pistoleer type character is perfectly fine. Abusing those rules to create some kind of twinky weapon just because you can is just that; abusing the rules.

Most rules can be horribly, horribly abused (just look at some of Spynx's posts on "perfectly sensible" things), especially if horribly rationalized. That doesn't mean you're not abusing them and, in effect, cheating to one degree or another. Afterall, if such "wonder" weapons, spells, or equipment were that easy to create, everyone would have them.

But alas, they don't.
3Threes
munchkin = somebody who plays different than YOU and annoys YOU to the point where you wanna say mean things about them

min/maxer = anybody who makes a character using any non-random method of character generation - EVERY choice is a result of balancing the costs and benefits of the possibilities including the benefit of not looking like a min/maxer

powergamer = somebody who min/maxes more than YOU to the point that it annoys you at least a little

idiot = someone who disagrees with YOU even after you explain why YOU must be right

moron = somebody who disagrees with YOU and then still disagrees with YOU after YOU pick apart their weak explaination of why they are right

newb = someone who reminds YOU of how naive and clueless YOU used to be to the point that it annoys YOU at least a little

ruleslawyer = somebody who relies on and references the rules more than YOu do to the point that YOU are annoyed

everybody elses problems are really all centered around yourself

- 3Threes <----- self righteous hypocrite!
Moonstone Spider
To some degree every Shadowrun character is powergamed. Just by being a Shadowrunner you pretty much assure that you're quicker, meaner, and stronger than any average human (Face it, nobody has all 3s as their stats, 3 is lousy, not average.)

As for munchkinism, while on the one hand munchkins certainly are a problem, on the other hand a GM generally has all the power needed to handle such characters. I see a lot more munchy GMs who whine about their players being too strong than strong players. The GM has access to everything from Great Dragons to corp samurai equipped entirely with Deltaware, something no player can afford, to Mages with double digit initiations to milspec gear that has no availability period to unique enchantments that can do literally anything the GM wants. These strong players aren't that big a problem, the GM has all the tools needed to make the character bleed. Just use some imagination in how you build your threats, and concentrate on making the game fun.
Tanka
At one point I wanted to play a little kid who thought Shadowrunning was like the TV Show "Joe Runner."

I did all the stats, skills, etc... He plays football, is average at mainly everything, and is an Adept to boot (That Mystic Armor/Rooting sure helps him in football).

He's about 13-ish. He sucks!

Too bad I lost the sheet. frown.gif
toturi
Here we go again...

Is there a way to link to all those "Munchkin, Powergamer, etc." threads on the old forums?

Everyone has his or her definations of the words above, pick one you are comfortable with and let other people have theirs. There's no fixed defination for those words anyway.
Jason Farlander
QUOTE (toturi)
Everyone has his or her definations of the words above, pick one you are comfortable with and let other people have theirs. There's no fixed defination for those words anyway.

Oh-HO! I beg to differ!

QUOTE
munch·kin

(n) a person who is notably small and often endearing.


Also, the old forums (read-only) are here.

Here is the search page.
Rattler
Well,

QUOTE
Munchkin: A teenage-or-younger micro enthusiast hacking BASIC or something else equally constricted.


Just because there's one definition at webster.com doesn't mean it's the only one. nyahnyah.gif
Diesel
I'm roleplaying if I brag to my friends about my character's lengthy history.

I'm powergaming when I explain my master plan of killing a guy, at extreme range, without him knowing. At TN 2 with a hundred dice.

I'm being a munchkin when I apologize to the GM before the game starts.
Glyph
I think Moonstone Spider got it dead on. A lot of people forget that Shadowrun is a game where you play people who commit high-level corporate espionage and sabotage for a living, and generally have been doing it for awhile. People who play a lower-powered game need to remember that they are a variation from the norm. The line from min-maxing (making sensible choices during the character creation phase) to powergaming (concentrating on success within the game, sometimes at the expense of roleplaying) to munchkinism (min-maxing, powergaming, or outright cheating, combined with whining and bullying tactics, to enhance your power or status within the game at the expense of the setting, the campaign, and everyone else's enjoyment) is different from campaign to campaign. What is acceptable or even almost required in one campaign could be horribly unbalancing in another campaign.

But people need to realize that wired reflexes: 3, smartlinked Ares Vipers, mnemonic enhancers, manabolts, albino gnome sorcerers, and other things should not instantly brand someone as a "munchkin". They are normal options within the character design process. If someone creates a character that unbalances the campaign, the fault lies with the GM, for 1) Not explaining the campaign setting and any variations on the standard character creation rules, and 2) Allowing an unbalancing character into the game, when GM approval is part of the character creation process. Of course, a lot of times it's the GM's fault because the GM is the munchkin. Whether it is holding down the PCs to a ludicrously weak level and then bullying them, abusing the forces available to the GM such as cyberzombies and immortal elves, or GM PC's, the GM can be the worst munchkin of all.
Lilt
QUOTE (Glyph)
the GM can be the worst munchkin of all.

I hear ya there.

GM: "Oh, oops, I put you in such trmeandous drek. What should I do? I know: My own 50000 karma UBERCHARACTER comes allong!"
Players: Groan... "Yay!" sarcastic.gif
GM: "A man comes round the corner wearing some form of experamental military grade battle armour that you haven't seen before..."
Players: *Beat their heads against the table for the next 3 hours*
nezumi
I have to agree with 3threes. His definitions are certainly the most fun. Specifically, munchkinism seems to be like it's doing powergaming/minimaxing whatever to the point that its detrimental to the game or other people around him. If I were to play in Sphynx's high powered games, having 10 dice in pistols would not be munchkin, it would be like everyone else (in their own respective areas). If I had that in my ganger game, that WOULD be munchkin because its power to the point of upsetting game balance/pissing people off. A munchkin I think is a derogatory term, so it needs to make someone upset to apply.

Also, I find it amusing that everyone says everyone is a minimaxer. I'm not sure about that. I made a character who, despite having Str 2 got vampire fangs because he thought they'd be cool, then had to pay $25k to have his eyes made alpha so he had the essence to accept them. The guy won't ever be able to USE them realistically in any way at all (hrm.. 2L -1 reach...) I just think it's something the character would want. Anyone who puts roleplaying above ALL else I would say cannot really be a minimaxer. They will accept painful drawbacks because that's their character, even if they don't get the best benefits from it. I made a fat elf poser. If I said he was skinny (for no points lost anywhere) he could pull it off, but he's not, he's fat. I don't get extra points for making him fat and my elf poser flaw is made that much more acute because of it, but that's how I imagined my character, so there.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE
...got vampire fangs because he thought they'd be cool, then had to pay $25k to have his eyes made alpha so he had the essence to accept them.

And by definition you just min/maxed your way in so you could get those fangs. You gave up standard but cheaper eyes for more expensive ones that allowed you to take the fangs.

Min/maxing is not a bad thing.
nezumi
No, I didn't minimax. I paid more than those teeth were worth (~$38k for a worse weapon than a $30 knife). I maxminied, paid more for less benefits. Did I play with the numbers? Yes, but not to gain an advantage. I don't think you can say roleplaying is minimaxing is by definition roleplaying; that's a sign of an overly broad definition of minimaxing.

[edit:] minimaxing means getting the MAXIMUM benefit for the MINIMUM cost. I'd say this almost exclusively applies to NUMBERS, because otherwise it would be called 'logic'. If we had a large group of people who randomly walked into walls and shot themselves in the heads, applying 'minimaxer' to playing a character who works in his self interest would be justified.[/edit]

However, I won't say minimaxing isn't good. I enjoy character creation immensely because I can play with the numbers. My wife really doesn't, and she's accepted characters with 3's in everything because she just wants to roleplay. We just look for different things in games (and consequently she doesn't enjoy SR and I do). But SR is definitely geared towards playing with the numbers.
Mr.Platinum
nuyen.gif Munchkin?? Sorry but there is no way a munchkin can truley survive in my game.

I was started running a game for a new group, and the old GM says these guys are tough and was going to make the enemies more Lethal.
I just Ran the Game as hardcore to the rules I can, and the toughest character almost ate it due to some nut with a Katana.


What i'm saying is no matter how high a level some one character is they can get fucked just like a new character.
Kurukami
I'd love to see you try that with the behemoth of the campaign I'm in, a troll physad with hundreds of Karma under his belt. Between the mystic armor, and the huge unarmed skill, and the high Body/other stats, and the friggin' enormous Karma Pool, taking him down is virtually impossible. The only things that can usually come close to downing him utterly crush any of the less-experienced characters.

Personally, I'd love to see a new campaign start up, but neither the GM nor the players of many of the more established high-Karma characters seem interested in that. Most of said characters are played by heavy powergamers, natch...
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